Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[GoBlue72391]

A random thought I just had: Remember how Robin Lopez's rebounding numbers were well below average for a big man, but he made up for it by boxing guys out and allowing Lauri and his other teammates to grab the rebounds?

Is that what Lauri's doing now? I haven't seen him keep defenders on his hip to clear driving lanes for his teammates like Robin did, but that's something else entirely.

Watching the games, Lauri seems pretty active on the offensive glass, but defensively I usually see him boxing players out while Coby, Zach, etc. get the rebound. I feel like most bigs "fight" their teammates for these uncontested/low value defensive rebounds to boost their stats. Think Russell Westbrook, Carmelo Anthony, and Boogie Cousins.

It always seems like Lauri is right there for the defensive board, but one of his teammates end up snagging it and he doesn't put up a fight because he's a team first player who doesn't care about stats. If he did whore out for those uncontested/low value defensive rebounds he would probably be averaging close to 10 RPG.

He does get out rebounded some times and of course he can improve on that aspect, but maybe Lauri isn't as bad of a rebounder as it seems and he's simply doing for his teammates what Robin did for him. I could be way off base here, but it's something I noticed and is worth keeping an eye on.

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[GoBlue72391]

That has been a big reason for his improved efficiency. After all these bad games, he is still at 62 TS%. No player in the history of the league has shot 62% on long 2pt jumpers.

True. But this is also why he'd probably be rendered into nothing but a spot up decoy in a playoff series where defense is far tighter and free dunks and threes are a whole lot harder to come by.

Interesting tidbit from the Boston broadcast: Scalabrine said that he watched Lauri's pre-draft workout for Celtics, and Lauri had looked fantastic. Scal wondered why Lauri looks like a different player nowadays, what went wrong.

What went wrong is that he's going up against NBA defenders being paid millions of dollars, not 5'10" assistants waving around foam sticks.

"What went wrong is that he's going up against NBA defenders being paid millions of dollars, not 5'10" assistants waving around foam sticks."

I believe the Scal interview BigJimFinn is talking about, Lauri was playing in a pre-draft scrimmage with other draft prospects and NBA players and Scal was either there observing or playing himself. A far cry from 5'10" assistants with foam sticks.

The problem is Lauri is naturally passive and not a self motivating player. He needs to be prodded to get that aggressiveness and motivation out of him. From what I understand, this is generally a default personality trait among Finnish people. One example is when he matches up with Porzingas. I wonder if a sports psychologist could get him to view every game as a challenge like that.

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[GoBlue72391]

Yeah, I think the size he brings add something different than Korver/McDermott though. He's still more versatile in his ability to score than those guys. Kyle Korver and Doug McDermott really can't attack closeouts and score.

True, but he's also a far worse midrange shooter than those guys, which basically negates the difference in layups. With those guys you can at least count on another solid midrange shooter for when you're playing a tougher defense that limits those wide open lanes and 3s that Lauri feasts on.

People were killing Boylen for the lack of midrange Js last year, well…Lauri has taken literally zero 16'+ 2-pointers so far this season. He's actively trying to become less and less of a three-level scorer.

That has been a big reason for his improved efficiency. After all these bad games, he is still at 62 TS%. No player in the history of the league has shot 62% on long 2pt jumpers. What I would like to see is replacing some of the weak drives into traffic with stop-and-pops from the 10-12 ft range. Since he cannot finish after any contact, he should use his touch and coordination for short jumpers. A 7-footer doesn't need to shoot a floater against help defenders. Right now his close-out drives are very predictable. If he was ever used in pick-and-rolls for the short roll, he would also be a threat to shoot or one-dribble drive from the FT line. Then we would also see if he can actually pass. Also to Doug's point on the different types of 3pt attempts, he has the basic skills to shoot a pull-up or side dribble 3, so learning to actually use them could add a couple of fairly open 3s per game.
The easiest improvement however should be the realization he is not in hurry when he catches around the rim against small-ball centers, never mind guard mismatches. He has been better this season diving in and posting deep, sometimes the ball is even passed to him. In both of the last games, he had one very good deep seal, got the pass about two ticks too late, and then missed a needlessly rushed layup over 6-8 Harrell and 6-7 G.Williams respectively.
Interesting tidbit from the Boston broadcast: Scalabrine said that he watched Lauri's pre-draft workout for Celtics, and Lauri had looked fantastic. Scal wondered why Lauri looks like a different player nowadays, what went wrong.

"What I would like to see is replacing some of the weak drives into traffic with stop-and-pops from the 10-12 ft range."

I agree, and I think we've seen him start to realize that over the past 2-3 games. Recently he's started shooting stop-and-pop post fades and half-spin fades when he's unable to get all the way to the rim on drives. I believe he's made all of them, many of which were heavily contested, although it's only been like 4-5 attempts over the past few games by my count. Still, it's good to see him apparently recognize this and hopefully he continues utilizing these types of shots.


"Since he cannot finish after any contact, he should use his touch and coordination for short jumpers."

While I agree with your post overall as well as the point you're trying to make in this sentence, I think it's inaccurate to say "he cannot finish after any contact." I feel he's done a great job of finishing through contact on drives this season, and his 75% at the rim shooting percentage reflects that. The Mavs game especially he was consistently scoring through contact of lengthy rim protectors like Porzingas, Boban, and WCS.

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[Dez]

A random thought I just had: Remember how Robin Lopez's rebounding numbers were well below average for a big man, but he made up for it by boxing guys out and allowing Lauri and his other teammates to grab the rebounds?

Is that what Lauri's doing now? I haven't seen him keep defenders on his hip to clear driving lanes for his teammates like Robin did, but that's something else entirely.

Watching the games, Lauri seems pretty active on the offensive glass, but defensively I usually see him boxing players out while Coby, Zach, etc. get the rebound. I feel like most bigs "fight" their teammates for these uncontested/low value defensive rebounds to boost their stats. Think Russell Westbrook, Carmelo Anthony, and Boogie Cousins.

It always seems like Lauri is right there for the defensive board, but one of his teammates end up snagging it and he doesn't put up a fight because he's a team first player who doesn't care about stats. If he did whore out for those uncontested/low value defensive rebounds he would probably be averaging close to 10 RPG.

He does get out rebounded some times and of course he can improve on that aspect, but maybe Lauri isn't as bad of a rebounder as it seems and he's simply doing for his teammates what Robin did for him. I could be way off base here, but it's something I noticed and is worth keeping an eye on.

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That is one massively long bow you're drawing, he's not boxing out for others at all he's just not a good rebounder.

[GoBlue72391]

A random thought I just had: Remember how Robin Lopez's rebounding numbers were well below average for a big man, but he made up for it by boxing guys out and allowing Lauri and his other teammates to grab the rebounds?

Is that what Lauri's doing now? I haven't seen him keep defenders on his hip to clear driving lanes for his teammates like Robin did, but that's something else entirely.

Watching the games, Lauri seems pretty active on the offensive glass, but defensively I usually see him boxing players out while Coby, Zach, etc. get the rebound. I feel like most bigs "fight" their teammates for these uncontested/low value defensive rebounds to boost their stats. Think Russell Westbrook, Carmelo Anthony, and Boogie Cousins.

It always seems like Lauri is right there for the defensive board, but one of his teammates end up snagging it and he doesn't put up a fight because he's a team first player who doesn't care about stats. If he did whore out for those uncontested/low value defensive rebounds he would probably be averaging close to 10 RPG.

He does get out rebounded some times and of course he can improve on that aspect, but maybe Lauri isn't as bad of a rebounder as it seems and he's simply doing for his teammates what Robin did for him. I could be way off base here, but it's something I noticed and is worth keeping an eye on.

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That is one massively long bow you're drawing, he's not boxing out for others at all he's just not a good rebounder.

I'm not saying he's a good rebounder, I'm just saying maybe he's not as bad as many think.

Watch how many defensive rebounds he misses out on each game because he's content to let his teammates get them. Most bigs insist on grabbing those. Would he be better if he grabbed these uncontested rebounds to boost his counting stats? No, but his stat line would look a lot better.

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[HomoSapien]

I actually think there's merit that Lopez artificially made Lauri's rebounding numbers seem better than they were by boxing out so well, but I'm not sure that I agree that Lauri's taken over that role.

[GoBlue72391]

I actually think there's merit that Lopez artificially made Lauri's rebounding numbers seem better than they were by boxing out so wel, but I'm not sure that I agree that Lauri's taken over that role.

I don't even know if I necessarily agree with it either, it's just that I noticed he'll have his guy boxed out and his teammates will grab the board, or if it's an uncontested board he's content to let someone else get it.

It's just something I'm going to keep a closer eye on.

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[Leslie Forman]

I believe the Scal interview BigJimFinn is talking about, Lauri was playing in a pre-draft scrimmage with other draft prospects and NBA players and Scal was either there observing or playing himself. A far cry from 5'10" assistants with foam sticks.

What, this workout?

Read on Twitter

Any competent agent would never have allowed him to play an actual scrimmage with active NBA players or competing draft picks who play the same position. Not sure why any active NBA player would ever go along with that either.

But really, it doesn't matter what he did in workouts, we now have almost 200 NBA games of evidence to look at. Some workout Brian Scalabrine saw once four years ago is about as relevant as the size of the city's rat population. And he has not improved on literally a single thing that was mentioned as a minus based on his college days.

MINUSES

Needs to expand beyond his shooting game to add playmaking and interior scoring.
Struggles at times scoring against length.
Subpar interior defender because he doesn’t get in position for leverage and he lacks strength and length.
Inconsistent perimeter defender who reaches too much, has poor footwork on closeouts, and gets lost in pick-and-roll coverages.
Poor rebounder, often outperformed by guards and moved off his spot. Lacks length to grab contested boards.

We're going on season #4 of this now.

[Pentele]

I actually think there's merit that Lopez artificially made Lauri's rebounding numbers seem better than they were by boxing out so wel, but I'm not sure that I agree that Lauri's taken over that role.

I don't even know if I necessarily agree with it either, it's just that I noticed he'll have his guy boxed out and his teammates will grab the board, or if it's an uncontested board he's content to let someone else get it.

It's just something I'm going to keep a closer eye on.

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When Lauri plays 5, it appears to be by design. Or, to be on the safe side, I have also noticed on more than a few occasions that Lauri seeks to box out the (lone) opposing rebounder in situations in which the bulls have a clear advantage under the basket. In terms of stats, the beneficiary of that is quite often Coby White. That makes sense, since it is White's job to initiate offense, even if there usually is no effective fast break available in that scenario given that the lone rebounder is probably going to guard Lauri. I see nothing wrong in this, but it certainly leads to Lauri getting a few rebounds less.

That being said, I do not think Lauri is good or perhaps even decent rebounder. On the flip side, one can argue that there is not much difference to any peer (in terms of utilization as 4 or occasional 5) that might replace him if we go by numbers. That argument has been made before, and there is no point for me to rehearse it.

[WindyCityBorn]

I actually think there's merit that Lopez artificially made Lauri's rebounding numbers seem better than they were by boxing out so wel, but I'm not sure that I agree that Lauri's taken over that role.

I don't even know if I necessarily agree with it either, it's just that I noticed he'll have his guy boxed out and his teammates will grab the board, or if it's an uncontested board he's content to let someone else get it.

It's just something I'm going to keep a closer eye on.

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I have noticed his boxing out technique is terrible. He is letting the other team get rebounds not his teammates.

[GrowingHorns]

I actually think there's merit that Lopez artificially made Lauri's rebounding numbers seem better than they were by boxing out so wel, but I'm not sure that I agree that Lauri's taken over that role.

I don't even know if I necessarily agree with it either, it's just that I noticed he'll have his guy boxed out and his teammates will grab the board, or if it's an uncontested board he's content to let someone else get it.

It's just something I'm going to keep a closer eye on.

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I have noticed his boxing out technique is terrible. He is letting the other team get rebounds not his teammates.

I noticed that too. It seems it's one small step to trY become a better big in defensive end but that along lack of proper, hard screens and rim protecting+ help defense, it's a lot work for BD and the developmental staff. If Bulls won't see before March deadline improvements on few areas it's a possible trade or other option is to get a verbal consent from him to accept some kind of compromise offer and not taking the bigger cash if someone is offering that. Nevertheless it will be interesting for me to see how all turns out. Asa Finnish Bulls fan, I will likely not get this kinda chance again to root for home boy wearing red. I almost pray for Lauri to work out few things so they can get the deal done - one that is good for the team and Lauri is OK with it.

[chefo]

Lauri, by the eye-test, has been playing grappling games (not very well, yet) when on D after a shot goes up, and especially when playing C. That's most definitely by design. Why do I think that?

That's how coach D used Steven Adams in OKC, so that Russ can get the board and go, which helps with speeding up the pace. That's 180 from what Hoiberg and early Boylen did, where Rolo was boxing out so that Lauri can get the board and go (remember those days?)

Rebounding is schematic, just like D is, unless you have a beast like Gobert or Drummond at which point, you just implement a different scheme. Bulls are 10th in defensive rebounding in the league--whatever they are doing seems to work.

Also, I've noted that the last several games, Lauri has gotten much better at playing D like Asik used to--just hands straight up and moving his feet. He got a couple of calls go against him when doing that, but he also had a number of really good challenges/contests. If he actually gets good at that skill--hell, yes, play him at C full-time. This is the first time I've seen Lauri play D like that in his 4 years here. Before, if he rotated, he'd always try to block the shot. Somebody obviously has pointed out to him that challenging shots well is better for the team than trying to block them.

Overall, I don't think people fully appreciate how much better on D Lauri has played this year--and that's on a team that's tissue-paper soft guarding the perimeter which makes almost everybody look subpar.

[GrowingHorns]

Also, I've noted that the last several games, Lauri has gotten much better at playing D like Asik used to--just hands straight up and moving his feet. He got a couple of calls go against him when doing that, but he also had a number of really good challenges/contests. If he actually gets good at that skill--hell, yes, play him at C full-time. This is the first time I've seen Lauri play D like that in his 4 years here. Before, if he rotated, he'd always try to block the shot. Somebody obviously has pointed out to him that challenging shots well is better for the team than trying to block them.

Good you mentioned this, bc I am not really a fan of strong blocks for other than it could elevate spirit in heated game and gain some momentum. But blocks can end up three ways: to own player, out of bounds or to the opposing team. I used to defend the way of challenging rather than going for hard blocks, bc if going in for hard blocks you better make it right then and be real good with it.

In one reddit threat I mentioned the same thing you did above, that he has had some good contests at times. It's still a bit on and off and needs to go for more of them and effectivily, and stay not afraid of the contact bc the more he could manage to make shots harder by that way the more respect he would gain and get less of them calls. The way he managed to up that side of his game on Lakers 3rd quarter was at times encouraging for me, actually got few times AD take such a hard shot we got the ball off missed shot and rebound.This is not saying I was happy on his overall performance in last few games, but that's about most of the teamtoo, i was not happy.

[Indomitable]

Yes, I meant how explosive they looked. Who knows maybe that's just in my head, but there's something about the way he moved around the court in the highlights from early in his career that no longer seem very present in his game today.

It's just in your head. He had plenty of similar dunks last year. Those ones you posted are ultimately nothing more than simple straight line drives, one of them getting by our old friend Doug.

I'll give him credit for doing a really good job of making his shots this year, but it's just more of the same - wide open threes, wide open drives, and random garbage buckets here and there. These were already the only things he was good at, and it's hard to believe his current efficiency is sustainable (to be fair, that goes for most of the rotation right now).

He just isn't improving on his weaknesses at all. There isn't any growth here as an all-around player and this is the crucial year #4. Bam freakin' Adebayo is looking closer to a young Dirk now than Lauri ever has.

One guy went out and made self more athletic. The other used a 90s training program.

[GoBlue72391]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

[ArtMorte]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

I doubt Lauri will ever reach all-star level, but he's absolutely worth 20m per season, someone will give him that. I hope for that money he'd stay in Chicago, because - like you said - we're not going to get anyone better to replace him.

[DroseReturnChi]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

half of the fanbase here dislikes Lauri's softness they would rather pay 4 finger Bertans who can only shoot 3s.
Maybe they see in Bertans in what I dont see.

Given's AK's hate too towards Lauri, I hope he just gives him a max contract and deal him in a star package someone like KP.
Declining that contract extension pretty much showed two sides dont plan long term. Whether Lauri is garbage or not, losing him in rfa is clearly the worst choice.

[GrowingHorns]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

half of the fanbase here dislikes Lauri's softness they would rather pay 4 finger Bertans who can only shoot 3s.
Maybe they see in Bertans in what I dont see.

Given's AK's hate too towards Lauri, I hope he just gives him a max contract and deal him in a star package someone like KP.
Declining that contract extension pretty much showed two sides dont plan long term. Whether Lauri is garbage or not, losing him in rfa is clearly the worst choice.

Then again, I read on the off season comments that this new regime wanted to see what went wrong with him. Now that it seems obvious some nagging issues he had combined with the wors coaching in the NBA really was a huge part of his and plenty of others decline, I don't see them to be mot offering him a good deal.IF he won't be offered a good return in a trade. If the offers will be ****, Lauri with this kinda scoring efg% will be re-signed to Chicago.

[coldfish]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

Lauri has played well this year and I could see him improving his defense beyond where its at. Right now, he is actually trying on that side of the court and his timing is just off. As he gets more reps I think he will get better.

A lot of guys get overpaid in the NBA. Bertans is a terrible contract. I strongly suspect that Lauri will get a big offer though.

There are two questions I think a GM should ask:
- Is a guy tradeable at that contract?
- Can you build a contender with that contract?

At his current level of play, I think that $20m per year for Lauri would get a yes on both.

[sco]

If Lauri keeps up this level of play all season long, are you willing to pay him $20M+ per season? I am, because:

1) He's back on the trajectory he was after his 2nd season and is still young enough to continue growing with the rest of the core.

2) Guys like Davis Bertans get $20M per year and Lauri is clearly a much better all around player.

3) I think he's capable of making another jump to an all-star level once we add a real playmaking PG to this team and he becomes a matchup nightmare as he eventually shifts to Center playing next to a versatile, defensive minded PF (likely PWill).

4) I have 0 faith in our ability to sign big time free agents, so if we let him walk we would likely be worse off.

5) With all the injuries WCJ has sustained I can see us moving on from him which would make it easier to absorb Lauri's contract

Lauri has played well this year and I could see him improving his defense beyond where its at. Right now, he is actually trying on that side of the court and his timing is just off. As he gets more reps I think he will get better.

A lot of guys get overpaid in the NBA. Bertans is a terrible contract. I strongly suspect that Lauri will get a big offer though.

There are two questions I think a GM should ask:
- Is a guy tradeable at that contract?
- Can you build a contender with that contract?

At his current level of play, I think that $20m per year for Lauri would get a yes on both.

I want to see more defensive improvement from Lauri before I would want him back. I also want to see him keep up his offensive production all the way through the deadline and prove that FebruLauri didn't just come early this year. If he can, I'm ok with plunking down $18-$20M/yr.

My biggest objection to keeping Lauri has been the opportunity cost of losing out a 2nd addl Max guy, that his contract would cost us, but at this level of production, I'm less bothered.

The flipside of the argument is that Thad has been just as good, and if somehow Lauri/Otto/filler can nab us a legit allstar, We still have Thad at PF and we might be able to really upgrade at PG or C, which is where we are struggling.