1988 Bird vs 2020 LeBron

[1993Playoffs]

Which player was better ?

[JordansBulls]

Bird lost with HCA but Lebron had a guy who was better statistically on his own team and avoided the the next best seeds in his conference and the other. Prior year he didn't make the playoffs without that player. Imagine Bird in 1988 with a guy better than him statistically.

[No-more-rings]

Bird for regular season but Lebron for postseason and overall, i mean wasn’t this the year where Bird’s back injuries started to arise?

[frozt]

Come on man, I know Bird is an all time great, but LeBron is at a level so far above Bird at controlling the outcome of a team's championship potential it isn't even close for me.

[MyUniBroDavis]

2020 Bron pretty easily

I think people don’t realize how good he was defensively last year. 2020 Lebron RS was pretty top tier in terms of two way wing years. It might be one of his best defensive years, in terms of him making up for his declining athleticism with IQ.

Despite the pretty bad bubble stretch pre playoffs, where he basically didn’t try and the lakers offense fell from like 2nd to 10th, his impact stats are still pretty strong

But beyond that, his output is basically the same in the RS

Especially given he was such a force defensively, his playoff run gets a bit underrated. I mean AD essentially had a playoff run with level of play in the tier one PF type level, and Lebron had a clearly better run than him


While the team was fairly stacked, and competition wasn’t crazy, lebron + AD and good role players outside of garbage time played at a top5 nba history type level.

Essentially the only playoff teams that were a more dominant outside of garbage time were the 01 lakers and the 17 warriors, obviously not factoring in other stuff too

2020 Bron in terms of peaks is probably tier one, where there are like 2-4 players maybe that can contest him

[Djoker]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

[MyUniBroDavis]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020, the idea he’s a slight positive just doesn’t jive with literally any sort of data or eye test we have lol.

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the the best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t top tier DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol.

In terms of 2020 the only perimeter defender that might have been better than bron was simmons id say.

[euroleague]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the lo best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol

Lbj in 2020 didn’t have a better playoff run than Bird ever had.

Having AD, a top 3 player in the playoffs who fits perfectly with LBJ, on top of perfectly executing role players and playoff Rondo, made everything pretty easy.

Trailblazers without fully healthy Nurkic, Rockets, Nuggets, Heat without Dragic - that schedule made it even easier.

In 84 Bird averaged 28/11/6 on 50/40/88 with 2.3 steals and 1.2 blocks in the playoffs, while making All-Defense and playing relatively tougher competition with less help. Celtics scored 114ppg, to measure pace. Bird led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

In 20, lbj averaged 28/11/9 on 56/37/72 with 4 TO, 1.2 steals and .8 blocks. The Lakers scored 136 ppg, and LBJ led in rebounds and assists

The numbers seem to indicate Bird produced relatively more, on higher efficiency with better defense in a lower paced game. That would paint Bird as a very clearly better player in the RS of 84, and a moderately better one in the PS

I’d probably take locked in 20 lbj over 88 bird, but I didn’t see him lock in much

[MyUniBroDavis]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the lo best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol

Lbj in 2020 didn’t have a better playoff run than Bird ever had.

Having AD, a top 3 player in the playoffs who fits perfectly with LBJ, on top of perfectly executing role players and playoff Rondo, made everything pretty easy.

Trailblazers without fully healthy Nurkic, Rockets, Nuggets, Heat without Dragic - that schedule made it even easier.

In 84 Bird averaged 28/11/6 on 50/40/88 with 2.3 steals and 1.2 blocks in the playoffs, while making All-Defense and playing relatively tougher competition with less help. Celtics scored 114ppg, to measure pace. Bird led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

In 20, lbj averaged 28/11/9 on 56/37/72 with 4 TO, 1.2 steals and .8 blocks. The Lakers scored 136 ppg, and LBJ led in rebounds and assists

The numbers seem to indicate Bird produced slightly more (via defense) in a lower paced game. That would paint Bird as a very clearly better player in the RS of 84, and a slightly better one in the PS

The lakers role players were effective defensively, and in general were solid but offensively they weren’t really anything special on offense.

Lebron and AD didn’t run much two man action in till maybe the last few games of the finals. I’ve said that 2020 Lebrons impact on AD’s effeciency is overstated, the other way works out too

From what I know pace doesn’t really coincide with volume as linearly as people like. That being said, the Celtics in 1984 scored 112.1 points per game and the 2020 lakers scored 113.4

I mean I’m assuming you miss typed but 136 literally wouldn’t make sense lol

The blazers were probably one of the better 8th seeds ever, considering they were a WCF team when healthy, and played healthy. nurkic hardly seemed hurt before they played the lakers they just gameplanned well. The rockets were considered a tough challenge, the nuggets weren’t crazy but were pretty clearly better than their record with how good Murray was playing. It’s not as if they got lucky to beat the clippers. Agree the heat were weak for a finals opponent

Leading your team statistically is easier when you have less help.

I don’t think anyone will argue bird is a better defender than 2020 bron based of all defense reasons that’s a pretty crazy take. It doesn’t make sense to compare their box score stats and mention pace without mentioning minutes, when brons are lower because of how many times they blew teams out.

Box score stats not being accurate ways to measure defense is pretty well known, impact data shows brons 2020 season as one of his best defensive seasons post leaving Cleveland the first time, and it’s pretty obvious bird doesn’t isn’t that level defensively. Eye test agrees with that as well, and players raves about his defense that year. He obviously had a few signature defensive games in every series except the Portland one too

On effeciency, bird shot 53% inside the arc, 41% outside the arc (on 0.7 attempts a game) and 88% from the ft line

Bron shot 64.6% inside the arc, 37% outside the arc (5.7 a game) and 72% from the ft line

64.7TS (lebron) vs 60.7TS (bird)

The era difference is only +2.1%, factoring in that 2020 nba is expected to have higher average TS from spot up shooters, the average TS for superstar scorers (non three reliant) is probably the same. Either way bron has a pretty sizeable lead in scoring effeciency, and considering that it doesn’t make sense to hurt lebron because they blew out teams early and got him to rest, lebron has a lead in volume as well

I don’t exactly see how there’s a clear gap for bird in RS scoring either

Overall though I don’t see how 28/11/6 on 60.7TS is better than 27.5/11/9 on 64.7TS, given that bron did it in 5 less minutes, almost fully because of both the game getting more tiring in general, and because the lakers blew teams out and rested early (minutes matter a lot more than pace anyway).

2020 playoff bron was probably up there with his best defensive playoff runs, def his best since he left Miami outside of the 2016 god run. Bird clearly never reached that level defensively.

In terms of helping lebrons numbers the lakers role players were pretty bad from a practical spacing point of view and teams loaded the paint vs them, and dared them to shoot. Even if it works out it should help lebrons effeciency like it did.

AD may have helped it in the sense that they can’t auto double off of him, which doesn’t mean much tbh, but in terms of numbers it only hurt his volume since outside the finals that ran more of a double spear on offense rather than working together. You can argue they get defensive attention off the other but that’s not really how it works since lebron wasn’t doing that much off ball iirc, and even AD wasn’t either

The pace difference wasn’t significant (Celtics were faster by a possession), and Bron basically averaged peak bron numbers per 36. The only series that went to 6 (which was the slowest series they played at 93.6 pace or somewhere around there),

We not only see brons numbers go up perfectly fine with increased minutes, but his effeciency goes up

Based off the fact that evidence shows he could maintain his volume with more minutes and sustain his effeciency, I think per minute production is a valid analysis here, especially since lower minutes is mostly because of them winning early.

Obviously 24/9.5/5 isn’t as impressive as 27.5/11/9, especially since lebron had the edge in effeciency

If lebron played 42 minutes a game like bird did, he would hit 32/12.5/10.2 per game.

We see him hit 30/12/8.5 vs the heat when he upped his minutes to 39.5 a game. Keep in mind the heat had iguadola/butler/crowder. Iggy and butler are probably 2/3 best lebron defenders in the 2010s era.

In the 9 games he exceeded 38 minutes, he hit

29.8/12.3/9.5

You’d expect this to be skewed because games he played well in are more likely to end early

Either way we are essentially blaming lebron for both playing in a generally more tiring era (more action and movement in general), and winning early so the team rests him

[70sFan]

I'd probably take James for two reasons - health and defense. When offense is as close as it gets, I prefer two-way player who could sustain his production for the whole season.

[MyUniBroDavis]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the lo best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol

Lbj in 2020 didn’t have a better playoff run than Bird ever had.

Having AD, a top 3 player in the playoffs who fits perfectly with LBJ, on top of perfectly executing role players and playoff Rondo, made everything pretty easy.

Trailblazers without fully healthy Nurkic, Rockets, Nuggets, Heat without Dragic - that schedule made it even easier.

In 84 Bird averaged 28/11/6 on 50/40/88 with 2.3 steals and 1.2 blocks in the playoffs, while making All-Defense and playing relatively tougher competition with less help. Celtics scored 114ppg, to measure pace. Bird led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

In 20, lbj averaged 28/11/9 on 56/37/72 with 4 TO, 1.2 steals and .8 blocks. The Lakers scored 136 ppg, and LBJ led in rebounds and assists

The numbers seem to indicate Bird produced relatively more, on higher efficiency with better defense in a lower paced game. That would paint Bird as a very clearly better player in the RS of 84, and a moderately better one in the PS

I’d probably take locked in 20 lbj over 88 bird, but I didn’t see him lock in much

Something to add

Pretty much any important qualifier we can use, from "close wins or losses" (non blowout wins), high minute games, etc etc, all point to Lebron being able to sustain his per minute production. outside of blowout wins, his production was around 30/12/9 on much higher effeciency than birds.

In "close games or non blowout losses" (10 or less margin of victory, or basically all losses outside of the 33 point loss), Birds numbers drop to 25.8/11.8/5.6 on 48.3/25/88, 56.2TS. While i dont care much for pace they played at a slightly higher pace than the lakers did, the lakers offense was just better.

[Dutchball97]

In terms of regular season it's close with an edge to Bird but the play-offs are massively in favor of LeBron. Bird had a strong performance in a deep play-off run in 88 but LeBron had another All-Time great post-season.

I think Bird's 84 season would be a more interesting comparison with LeBron's 2020.

[No-more-rings]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020, the idea he’s a slight positive just doesn’t jive with literally any sort of data or eye test we have lol.

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the the best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t top tier DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol.

In terms of 2020 the only perimeter defender that might have been better than bron was simmons id say.

Are you implying that 2020 Lebron's defense was as good as 09-13 Lebron? Because that's clearly false if so.

[MyUniBroDavis]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020, the idea he’s a slight positive just doesn’t jive with literally any sort of data or eye test we have lol.

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the the best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t top tier DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol.

In terms of 2020 the only perimeter defender that might have been better than bron was simmons id say.

Are you implying that 2020 Lebron's defense was as good as 09-13 Lebron? Because that's clearly false if so.

I’m implying it’s better than 2017 and 2018 lol

He’s at the level where he’s probably around top 1-3 perimeter defenders in the nba in 2020, obviously there was a time he was a clear 1st

[homecourtloss]

His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons.

Same old narrative It’s been posted here several times—LeBron had a DPOYish type season as a primary offense initiator in 2016. He was a plus defender in 2015, and 2017 and 2019. 2018, he was surrounded by an incredibly inept defensive team so basically played no defense trying to win games offensively.

LeBron was really good defensively last year (2020 LeBron being the one in question) which ha already been discussed here.

[euroleague]

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the lo best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol

Lbj in 2020 didn’t have a better playoff run than Bird ever had.

Having AD, a top 3 player in the playoffs who fits perfectly with LBJ, on top of perfectly executing role players and playoff Rondo, made everything pretty easy.

Trailblazers without fully healthy Nurkic, Rockets, Nuggets, Heat without Dragic - that schedule made it even easier.

In 84 Bird averaged 28/11/6 on 50/40/88 with 2.3 steals and 1.2 blocks in the playoffs, while making All-Defense and playing relatively tougher competition with less help. Celtics scored 114ppg, to measure pace. Bird led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

In 20, lbj averaged 28/11/9 on 56/37/72 with 4 TO, 1.2 steals and .8 blocks. The Lakers scored 136 ppg, and LBJ led in rebounds and assists

The numbers seem to indicate Bird produced slightly more (via defense) in a lower paced game. That would paint Bird as a very clearly better player in the RS of 84, and a slightly better one in the PS

The lakers role players were effective defensively, and in general were solid but offensively they weren’t really anything special on offense.

Lebron and AD didn’t run much two man action in till maybe the last few games of the finals. I’ve said that 2020 Lebrons impact on AD’s effeciency is overstated, the other way works out too

From what I know pace doesn’t really coincide with volume as linearly as people like. That being said, the Celtics in 1984 scored 112.1 points per game and the 2020 lakers scored 113.4

I mean I’m assuming you miss typed but 136 literally wouldn’t make sense lol

The blazers were probably one of the better 8th seeds ever, considering they were a WCF team when healthy, and played healthy. nurkic hardly seemed hurt before they played the lakers they just gameplanned well. The rockets were considered a tough challenge, the nuggets weren’t crazy but were pretty clearly better than their record with how good Murray was playing. It’s not as if they got lucky to beat the clippers. Agree the heat were weak for a finals opponent

Leading your team statistically is easier when you have less help.

I don’t think anyone will argue bird is a better defender than 2020 bron based of all defense reasons that’s a pretty crazy take. It doesn’t make sense to compare their box score stats and mention pace without mentioning minutes, when brons are lower because of how many times they blew teams out.

Box score stats not being accurate ways to measure defense is pretty well known, impact data shows brons 2020 season as one of his best defensive seasons post leaving Cleveland the first time, and it’s pretty obvious bird doesn’t isn’t that level defensively. Eye test agrees with that as well, and players raves about his defense that year. He obviously had a few signature defensive games in every series except the Portland one too

On effeciency, bird shot 53% inside the arc, 41% outside the arc (on 0.7 attempts a game) and 88% from the ft line

Bron shot 64.6% inside the arc, 37% outside the arc (5.7 a game) and 72% from the ft line

64.7TS (lebron) vs 60.7TS (bird)

The era difference is only +2.1%, factoring in that 2020 nba is expected to have higher average TS from spot up shooters, the average TS for superstar scorers (non three reliant) is probably the same. Either way bron has a pretty sizeable lead in scoring effeciency, and considering that it doesn’t make sense to hurt lebron because they blew out teams early and got him to rest, lebron has a lead in volume as well

I don’t exactly see how there’s a clear gap for bird in RS scoring either

Overall though I don’t see how 28/11/6 on 60.7TS is better than 27.5/11/9 on 64.7TS, given that bron did it in 5 less minutes, almost fully because of both the game getting more tiring in general, and because the lakers blew teams out and rested early (minutes matter a lot more than pace anyway).

2020 playoff bron was probably up there with his best defensive playoff runs, def his best since he left Miami outside of the 2016 god run. Bird clearly never reached that level defensively.

In terms of helping lebrons numbers the lakers role players were pretty bad from a practical spacing point of view and teams loaded the paint vs them, and dared them to shoot. Even if it works out it should help lebrons effeciency like it did.

AD may have helped it in the sense that they can’t auto double off of him, which doesn’t mean much tbh, but in terms of numbers it only hurt his volume since outside the finals that ran more of a double spear on offense rather than working together. You can argue they get defensive attention off the other but that’s not really how it works since lebron wasn’t doing that much off ball iirc, and even AD wasn’t either

The pace difference wasn’t significant (Celtics were faster by a possession), and Bron basically averaged peak bron numbers per 36. The only series that went to 6 (which was the slowest series they played at 93.6 pace or somewhere around there),

We not only see brons numbers go up perfectly fine with increased minutes, but his effeciency goes up

Based off the fact that evidence shows he could maintain his volume with more minutes and sustain his effeciency, I think per minute production is a valid analysis here, especially since lower minutes is mostly because of them winning early.

Obviously 24/9.5/5 isn’t as impressive as 27.5/11/9, especially since lebron had the edge in effeciency

If lebron played 42 minutes a game like bird did, he would hit 32/12.5/10.2 per game.

We see him hit 30/12/8.5 vs the heat when he upped his minutes to 39.5 a game. Keep in mind the heat had iguadola/butler/crowder. Iggy and butler are probably 2/3 best lebron defenders in the 2010s era.

In the 9 games he exceeded 38 minutes, he hit

29.8/12.3/9.5

You’d expect this to be skewed because games he played well in are more likely to end early

Either way we are essentially blaming lebron for both playing in a generally more tiring era (more action and movement in general), and winning early so the team rests him

I did playoff averages, not regular season averages. I just added up team PPG in my head, and it's much higher for LA. Going off of regular season pace numbers, then comparing playoff performances, is obviously wrong - your argument is flawed.

in terms of rewarding LBJ by TS% is a terrible metric - Bird played in an era with far more post-play, and far less shooting to space the floor. Bird was a floor spacer, and sacrificed his TS% to open up the paint and be an extremely potent threat from long distance... BEFORE THE THREE POINT SHOT. His TS% helped his team immensely more than LBJ driving to the hoop and going for the layup, hoping to get double teamed so he can toss it out.

This common flaw in using stats without context to measure offense, than refusing to use stats to measure defense, always makes me laugh... Bird's defense was elite from the PF position, and he was a great help defender. LBJ was a very solid perimeter defender at SF, but wasn't all-defensive level.

On that defensive note, per minute isn't valid, as we've seen LBJ absolutely die defensively when he plays high minutes. His offensive efficiency doens't change that much, but he becomes an all-time bad level defender.

Iggy is very old and could barely play the regular season, crowder is ok, Butler has had an injured elbow and was exhausted from carrying too high of a load with Dragic's injury. All the other teams had basically nobody. furthermore, Nurkic was quite obviously injured if you were watching.

PS: Although it's on your next post, Ironically, you're the one trying to punish Bird for winning early and getting taken out, by discussing his numbers in blowouts as being far better than LBJ's...

[Djoker]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020, the idea he’s a slight positive just doesn’t jive with literally any sort of data or eye test we have lol.

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the the best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t top tier DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol.

In terms of 2020 the only perimeter defender that might have been better than bron was simmons id say.

It's not about whether regular season matters. It's about having the luxury of saving energy during the season and having 4 months off before the bubble. Taking Lebron's 2020 playoff numbers with no context is simply ridiculous. You don't think Bird would put up much better numbers if he had 4 months off then to quote you played "8 meaningless games" before the playoffs to warm up?

Lebron in 2020 was a slight positive on defense. If he was really as good defensively as you say he would have made an All-Defensive team. Surely the media weren't biased against him? For years while KD was in Golden State it was widely acknowledged that KD had become a better defender than Lebron and KD himself never made an All-Defensive team. So yea... don't see any evidence that Lebron is elite defensively. If there is any please send it my way. I'm willing to reconsider but when I watch Lebron I see as many blown up coverages and easily getting beat off the dribble as great chasedown blocks. Best perimeter defender is a laughable take honestly. Even peak defensive Lebron circa 2013 wasn't a great perimeter defender per se.

Second best in the regular season? Ok I'd say third because Harden was clearly better.

Another point is that the 2020 NBA was incredibly easy to put up numbers in with very high pace and high league average TS%. Lebron's Lakers played teams with an average DRtg of 112.4. By comparison Bird's Celtics played opponents with average DRTg of 106.4. That's a pretty major difference. That and the rest before the bubble completely skews the numbers in Lebron's favor and doesn't tell the whole story.

[Homer38]

In 1988 Bird started struggling with injuries but peak Bird when healthy was better than 2020 Lebron. The current version of Lebron is still a great player but he's not that level of player anymore. He is cruising in the regular seasons just to save energy for the playoffs. He won the assist title last season but finished 12th in scoring, 9th in PER, 12th in WS/48 and 5th in BPM while being 13th in minutes played. His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons. He's sto;; a positive defender but has as many breakdowns as great plays. He also had Davis who is 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense. In the playoffs he and Davis were 1a/1b. Lebron may have been more important ala Magic on the 80's Lakers or Curry on the 17-19 Warriors but it was close.

Being easily better than any version of prime Bird would mean you're a GOAT caliber player. Current Lebron isn't close to that IMO.

There’s pretty much no evidence that Lebrons defense declined in 2020, the idea he’s a slight positive just doesn’t jive with literally any sort of data or eye test we have lol.

There’s genuinely more evidence that 2020 bron was the the best perimeter defender in the nba than average, AD wasn’t top tier DPOY level until the playoffs either. It’s strange in general to use those stats as an argument against RS lebron, when Lebron was pretty clearly the second best in the nba during the RS, and Giannis having one of the best RS ever by a distance.

His defense fell off a bit in 2017 and esp in 2018, but 2020 is was clearly a resurgence on defense for him

Beyond that, even if he did save himself for the playoffs, and I think the only argument one can make for that are the 8 meaningless bubble games the entire laker team didn’t care about, he had a better playoff run than bird ever had in 2020 anyways so the gamble clearly works out. It’s not as if the RS actually mattered last year in the end anyway lol.

In terms of 2020 the only perimeter defender that might have been better than bron was simmons id say.

It's not about whether regular season matters. It's about having the luxury of saving energy during the season and having 4 months off before the bubble. Taking Lebron's 2020 playoff numbers with no context is simply ridiculous. You don't think Bird would put up much better numbers if he had 4 months off then to quote you played "8 meaningless games" before the playoffs to warm up?

Lebron in 2020 was a slight positive on defense. If he was really as good defensively as you say he would have made an All-Defensive team. Surely the media weren't biased against him? For years while KD was in Golden State it was widely acknowledged that KD had become a better defender than Lebron and KD himself never made an All-Defensive team. So yea... don't see any evidence that Lebron is elite defensively. If there is any please send it my way. I'm willing to reconsider but when I watch Lebron I see as many blown up coverages and easily getting beat off the dribble as great chasedown blocks. Best perimeter defender is a laughable take honestly. Even peak defensive Lebron circa 2013 wasn't a great perimeter defender per se.

Second best in the regular season? Ok I'd say third because Harden was clearly better.

Another point is that the 2020 NBA was incredibly easy to put up numbers in with very high pace and high league average TS%. Lebron's Lakers played teams with an average DRtg of 112.4. By comparison Bird's Celtics played opponents with average DRTg of 106.4. That's a pretty major difference. That and the rest before the bubble completely skews the numbers in Lebron's favor and doesn't tell the whole story.

LeBron's numbers would have been better without the 4 month break, even in the playoffs ... I mean, it took a long time before LBJ take his rhythm he had before the break and the break is not good for an old player, especially before the playoffs.


For his defense,he was great all year long(The players against him was at 44.6% in the regular season and 43.7% in the playoffs) and when it was the time he was great to take the challenge

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[freethedevil]

His defense fell of dramatically compared to his Miami years and didn't make an All-Defensive team in six seasons.

Same old narrative It’s been posted here several times—LeBron had a DPOYish type season as a primary offense initiator in 2016. He was a plus defender in 2015, and 2017 and 2019. 2018, he was surrounded by an incredibly inept defensive team so basically played no defense trying to win games offensively.

LeBron was really good defensively last year (2020 LeBron being the one in question) which ha already been discussed here.

Callibg lebron in 2015 merely a "plus defender' massively undersells his playoffs me thinks.

[letskissbro]

I'd take every prime LeBron year minus 2015 and maybe 2011 over any Bird year