Tank World Order

[MixxSRC]

Finishing 8th and losing in first round is awesome. But you know what's better? Just missing playoffs. Imagine being just a game away from 8th seed. WOW. It's that sweet zone.

Man that would be such productive year for Raptors. Fingers crossed guys

[Psubs]

Finishing 8th and losing in first round is awesome. But you know what's better? Just missing playoffs. Imagine being just a game away from 8th seed. WOW. It's that sweet zone.

Man that would be such productive year for Raptors. Fingers crossed guys

There is the play in round, so you get bonus games if you finish in the top 10. You don't make the top 10 and get some slim % to get a top 3. Silver owes us.

[Steelo Green]

Finishing 8th and losing in first round is awesome. But you know what's better? Just missing playoffs. Imagine being just a game away from 8th seed. WOW. It's that sweet zone.

Man that would be such productive year for Raptors. Fingers crossed guys

There is the play in round, so you get bonus games if you finish in the top 10. You don't make the top 10 and get some slim % to get a top 3. Silver owes us.

The Wolves have what 3 top picks in the last 7 years?

We should get one in a deep draft and turn this around quick

[NinjaBro]

Finishing 8th and losing in first round is awesome. But you know what's better? Just missing playoffs. Imagine being just a game away from 8th seed. WOW. It's that sweet zone.

Man that would be such productive year for Raptors. Fingers crossed guys

There is the play in round, so you get bonus games if you finish in the top 10. You don't make the top 10 and get some slim % to get a top 3. Silver owes us.

Don't see why Silver would gift us a top 3 pick who could turn into a star and have to play in Canada where ratings don't mean jack for the USA

[bluerap23]

The main argument is about odds.

So what are the odds that a tanking team will draft the next LeBron James.

Very high. Guaranteed for us. Trust me.

My argument is that, in the modern NBA (player empowerment era), as a not-ideal location for NBA superstars, you have just as good odds at contending for many years and winning a championship the way WE ACTUALLY WON!

By accumulating lottery-drafted players (e.g., DeRozan, JV and Poeltl) and trading them for key players? I hope we can do that again, but first we need draft some players in the lottery. That will require trading for picks that are in the lottery or being in the lottery itself. I hope we can do BOTH!

Losing is the new winning. Winning in the new losing.

By employing our development system. You know the one that produced FVV, OG, Pascal. You know the guys that have way more value than DeRozan, JV, Jak.

You keep doing that and then trade that capital for a superstar. In this era there are 1-2 all stars getting traded every year.

This will not happen this year. That does not mean another star will never be traded to the Raptors.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Siakam and FVV are firmly in their primes, OG is just entering his and they are flanked by Lowry, Norm and Boucher. Those latter three have all provided game to game boosts and have often times looked like a better trio than the former 3.

All of these players along with an elite coach have produced at best an average team (likely below average) that has I believe played the 3rd easiest schedule in the league. Nurse has proven adept at getting just as good performances with his depth pieces than with a full roster and it's not as though that core 3 isn't without major issues come the post-season.

So then, why is there this innate need to protect this "new core?" Yes, I get you don't want to just dump them for 2nd round picks and you can be patient in finding the right deal, but not a single player on this roster should be untouchable.

Yes, the championship was wonderful, but this need to lionize their performances when it was a singular players performance that was not replicable and is clearly the missing piece for this team to ever be a contender again is the point here. Of the 3 new core pieces I think OG has the most value to this team going forward and he was basically a complete non factor that entire season and didn't play in the playoffs at all.

You don't build a team for the future by desperately holding onto past performances.

[bluerap23]

Siakam and FVV are firmly in their primes, OG is just entering his and they are flanked by Lowry, Norm and Boucher. Those latter three have all provided game to game boosts and have often times looked like a better trio than the former 3.

All of these players along with an elite coach have produced at best an average team (likely below average) that has I believe played the 3rd easiest schedule in the league. Nurse has proven adept at getting just as good performances with his depth pieces than with a full roster and it's not as though that core 3 isn't without major issues come the post-season.

So then, why is there this innate need to protect this "new core?" Yes, I get you don't want to just dump them for 2nd round picks and you can be patient in finding the right deal, but not a single player on this roster should be untouchable.

Yes, the championship was wonderful, but this need to lionize their performances when it was a singular players performance that was not replicable and is clearly the missing piece for this team to ever be a contender again is the point here. Of the 3 new core pieces I think OG has the most value to this team going forward and he was basically a complete non factor that entire season and didn't play in the playoffs at all.

You don't build a team for the future by desperately holding onto past performances.

Yes, this year's team is mediocre. Everyone agrees with that.

Last year's team was not mediocre in the opinion of many. Next year's team will not be mediocre in the opinion of many.

They likely will not be a championship contender next year but they can build towards that using the strategy that they have successfully employed previously.

The fact that they have done it proves it can be done.

It may take a few years to build back up.

A tear down and complete rebuild via the draft will take longer and is not a guaranteed recipe for success by any measure.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Siakam and FVV are firmly in their primes, OG is just entering his and they are flanked by Lowry, Norm and Boucher. Those latter three have all provided game to game boosts and have often times looked like a better trio than the former 3.

All of these players along with an elite coach have produced at best an average team (likely below average) that has I believe played the 3rd easiest schedule in the league. Nurse has proven adept at getting just as good performances with his depth pieces than with a full roster and it's not as though that core 3 isn't without major issues come the post-season.

So then, why is there this innate need to protect this "new core?" Yes, I get you don't want to just dump them for 2nd round picks and you can be patient in finding the right deal, but not a single player on this roster should be untouchable.

Yes, the championship was wonderful, but this need to lionize their performances when it was a singular players performance that was not replicable and is clearly the missing piece for this team to ever be a contender again is the point here. Of the 3 new core pieces I think OG has the most value to this team going forward and he was basically a complete non factor that entire season and didn't play in the playoffs at all.

You don't build a team for the future by desperately holding onto past performances.

Yes, this year's team is mediocre. Everyone agrees with that.

Last year's team was not mediocre in the opinion of many. Next year's team will not be mediocre in the opinion of many.

They likely will not be a championship contender next year but they can build towards that using the strategy that they have successfully employed previously.

The fact that they have done it proves it can be done.

It may take a few years to build back up.

A tear down and complete rebuild via the draft will take longer and is not a guaranteed recipe for success by any measure.

Why is next year's team going to be better?

Lowry is likely gone and Norm's future is dicey at best. Yes, the Raptors have some cap space, but if they don't get Oladipo there isn't any game breaking talent they can land.

The championship strategy was landing Kawhi Leonard. How is that replicable in any way especially when the Raptors don't even have assets to deal for a star without completely decimating the roster?

The Raptors can amass assets at a much faster pace retooling or rebuilding than they can just staying the course and hoping they hit on a bunch of late first rounders and undrafted guys. In this instance you also put yourself in the race for a star that becomes available through trade much faster.

[bluerap23]

Siakam and FVV are firmly in their primes, OG is just entering his and they are flanked by Lowry, Norm and Boucher. Those latter three have all provided game to game boosts and have often times looked like a better trio than the former 3.

All of these players along with an elite coach have produced at best an average team (likely below average) that has I believe played the 3rd easiest schedule in the league. Nurse has proven adept at getting just as good performances with his depth pieces than with a full roster and it's not as though that core 3 isn't without major issues come the post-season.

So then, why is there this innate need to protect this "new core?" Yes, I get you don't want to just dump them for 2nd round picks and you can be patient in finding the right deal, but not a single player on this roster should be untouchable.

Yes, the championship was wonderful, but this need to lionize their performances when it was a singular players performance that was not replicable and is clearly the missing piece for this team to ever be a contender again is the point here. Of the 3 new core pieces I think OG has the most value to this team going forward and he was basically a complete non factor that entire season and didn't play in the playoffs at all.

You don't build a team for the future by desperately holding onto past performances.

Yes, this year's team is mediocre. Everyone agrees with that.

Last year's team was not mediocre in the opinion of many. Next year's team will not be mediocre in the opinion of many.

They likely will not be a championship contender next year but they can build towards that using the strategy that they have successfully employed previously.

The fact that they have done it proves it can be done.

It may take a few years to build back up.

A tear down and complete rebuild via the draft will take longer and is not a guaranteed recipe for success by any measure.

Why is next year's team going to be better?

Lowry is likely gone and Norm's future is dicey at best. Yes, the Raptors have some cap space, but if they don't get Oladipo there isn't any game breaking talent they can land.

The championship strategy was landing Kawhi Leonard. How is that replicable in any way especially when the Raptors don't even have assets to deal for a star without completely decimating the roster?

The Raptors can amass assets at a much faster pace retooling or rebuilding than they can just staying the course and hoping they hit on a bunch of late first rounders and undrafted guys. In this instance you also put yourself in the race for a star that becomes available through trade much faster.

There are other ways of improving this team without Oladipo. Our main problem this year is the supporting cast (loss of Gasol and Ibaka). We did a poor job replacing/maintaing those players because Masai wanted to keep cap flexibility. Between now and then I expect this depth to be addressed.

No I don't expect this to elevate us to true contender next year.

The championship strategy was developing talent and depth and then trading for a star.

This is repeatable in today's nba (stars are demanding trades every year). I don't expect we will be able to trade for Kawhi Leonard again, but that is not the only player that can elevate a very good team over the top.

[MixxSRC]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

[Steelo Green]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

The sad realty people don’t see is, this current core isn’t good enough. Pascal and Fred are fairly mediocre players.

To get said star would cost who knows how much in terms of asset base, and then that is of course if our offer is the one that is accepted, and then to be honest I don’t think Pascal + Fred + superstar is a contender at all.

Pascal is barely playing at a starter level right now.

He’s starting to go down the Roy Hibbert or Josh Howard path.

[MixxSRC]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

The sad realty people don’t see is, this current core isn’t good enough. Pascal and Fred are fairly mediocre players.

To get said star would cost who knows how much in terms of asset base, and then that is of course if our offer is the one that is accepted, and then to be honest I don’t think Pascal + Fred + superstar is a contender at all.

Pascal is barely playing at a starter level right now.

He’s starting to go down the Roy Hibbert or Josh Howard path.

Yeah for all their faults Derozan, Lowry and JV were better core of players than Siakam-FVV-OG. OG probably better than JV. But looking into future and rolling with Siakam - FVV - OG is not exciting

[Pooh_Jeter]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

The sad realty people don’t see is, this current core isn’t good enough. Pascal and Fred are fairly mediocre players.

To get said star would cost who knows how much in terms of asset base, and then that is of course if our offer is the one that is accepted, and then to be honest I don’t think Pascal + Fred + superstar is a contender at all.

Pascal is barely playing at a starter level right now.

He’s starting to go down the Roy Hibbert or Josh Howard path.

Yeah for all their faults Derozan, Lowry and JV were better core of players than Siakam-FVV-OG. OG probably better than JV. But looking into future and rolling with Siakam - FVV - OG is not exciting

Yup, prime Lowry is easily the best player of those 6. DeRozan for all his faults has way more cache around the league than anyone else listed.

What star is salivating at the chance to play with Siakam/FVV/OG? Toronto is already a tough sell for FA's, that core isn't enticing in the least. Kawhi was probably never serious about staying, but even him who went through the fire with those guys was like "Get me another star."

[HeadtopChunes]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

even if it did happen haing a lottery pick to trade would do nothing but help

[MixxSRC]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

even if it did happen haing a lottery pick to trade would do nothing but help

yeah people are talking Harden and Beal and people realizing we dont have assets to trade and stay competitive after. So how are guys expecting to get Top 5 player

[Indeed]

The sad realty people don’t see is, this current core isn’t good enough. Pascal and Fred are fairly mediocre players.

To get said star would cost who knows how much in terms of asset base, and then that is of course if our offer is the one that is accepted, and then to be honest I don’t think Pascal + Fred + superstar is a contender at all.

Pascal is barely playing at a starter level right now.

He’s starting to go down the Roy Hibbert or Josh Howard path.

Yeah for all their faults Derozan, Lowry and JV were better core of players than Siakam-FVV-OG. OG probably better than JV. But looking into future and rolling with Siakam - FVV - OG is not exciting

Yup, prime Lowry is easily the best player of those 6. DeRozan for all his faults has way more cache around the league than anyone else listed.

What star is salivating at the chance to play with Siakam/FVV/OG? Toronto is already a tough sell for FA's, that core isn't enticing in the least. Kawhi was probably never serious about staying, but even him who went through the fire with those guys was like "Get me another star."

We probably need to collect some future picks for a star, but VanVleet and OG are being paid as sidekicks allow us to get another max. Both of them should live up to their contract, and can be traded for upgrade. The biggest question for me is Siakam, who may still have potential to improve his skill and being worth his contract, but his shooting has been regressed.

[Indeed]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

even if it did happen haing a lottery pick to trade would do nothing but help

yeah people are talking Harden and Beal and people realizing we dont have assets to trade and stay competitive after. So how are guys expecting to get Top 5 player

Most likely it will be through development. My concern is that we are not selling high. Powell, even Stanley Johnson are 3+D, we also have Watson and Watanabe lining up, so I wonder what is our plan with the upcoming expiring.

[ATLTimekeeper]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

It's already happened like twice in the last 3 seasons. Are you hoping that LeBron is in this draft? (Or, to lower the bar, Kawhi or Harden?), also unlikely. This line of argument just ends up being antagonistic, and doesn't really help you convince anyone.

What I've gathered from following the conversations here is that this is not Tank World Order, but Rebuild When Convenient World Order. It's diluted into strategizing ways to move forward, which is pretty normal around here. The team has loads of time left to figure out if they can be a better than average team this year. And then they have capspace and all their picks. The basic argument here is that they absolutely need someone high in this draft, and then some extra picks. It's a complete unknown to everyone whether that may be the case. The year the Raptors tanked and took JV, the best players were taken well behind that pick. The year they tanked and drafted Ross, well, we could have been the New Orleans Pelicans or Washington Wizards of the last 7 years. I'd argue that until Masai and Bobby start making idiotic moves on the regular like BC did, that we may as well trust their own methodology and see what comes of it. When the bad moves happen, they tend to be obvious.

[KL78192020]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

It's already happened like twice in the last 3 seasons. Are you hoping that LeBron is in this draft? (Or, to lower the bar, Kawhi or Harden?), also unlikely. This line of argument just ends up being antagonistic, and doesn't really help you convince anyone.

What I've gathered from following the conversations here is that this is not Tank World Order, but Rebuild When Convenient World Order. It's diluted into strategizing ways to move forward, which is pretty normal around here. The team has loads of time left to figure out if they can be a better than average team this year. And then they have capspace and all their picks. The basic argument here is that they absolutely need someone high in this draft, and then some extra picks. It's a complete unknown to everyone whether that may be the case. The year the Raptors tanked and took JV, the best players were taken well behind that pick. The year they tanked and drafted Ross, well, we could have been the New Orleans Pelicans or Washington Wizards of the last 7 years. I'd argue that until Masai and Bobby start making idiotic moves on the regular like BC did, that we may as well trust their own methodology and see what comes of it. When the bad moves happen, they tend to be obvious.

Giannis and Harden are gone. So Beal is out there, Siakam plus 3 first round picks/3 swaps a good deal? thats probably the price to pay. Does that make the Raptors a championship team again? No one else is really on the horizon any time soon.

[ATLTimekeeper]

So you guys are hoping that within next fours years (lengths of Siakams and FVV contracts) a superstar will appear on a market that will be disgruntled and we will be ready to pounce and get him. I'm sorry but l don't think that's likely to happen.

It's already happened like twice in the last 3 seasons. Are you hoping that LeBron is in this draft? (Or, to lower the bar, Kawhi or Harden?), also unlikely. This line of argument just ends up being antagonistic, and doesn't really help you convince anyone.

What I've gathered from following the conversations here is that this is not Tank World Order, but Rebuild When Convenient World Order. It's diluted into strategizing ways to move forward, which is pretty normal around here. The team has loads of time left to figure out if they can be a better than average team this year. And then they have capspace and all their picks. The basic argument here is that they absolutely need someone high in this draft, and then some extra picks. It's a complete unknown to everyone whether that may be the case. The year the Raptors tanked and took JV, the best players were taken well behind that pick. The year they tanked and drafted Ross, well, we could have been the New Orleans Pelicans or Washington Wizards of the last 7 years. I'd argue that until Masai and Bobby start making idiotic moves on the regular like BC did, that we may as well trust their own methodology and see what comes of it. When the bad moves happen, they tend to be obvious.

Giannis and Harden are gone. So Beal is out there, Siakam plus 3 first round picks/3 swaps a good deal? thats probably the price to pay. Does that make the Raptors a championship team again? No one else is really on the horizon any time soon.

I'm not suggesting any trades at the moment. It's just arguing against the notion that these players are impossible to come by. It seems to be the most common refrain against any kind of status quo argument. No one else on the horizon? Like, Beal has been talking about how he wants to stay for years. Harden just became available because Morey ducked out. If you can count on anything, it's that NBA stars will be asking to be moved. So, the Raptors can either attempt to keep at it, and eventually worm their way into a position where it's a good decision to "go for it," or they can tank it out and invite that uncertainty. I know what I'd rather watch.