RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #51 (Dwight Howard)

[freethedevil]

Actually I forgot about giannis and AD, gonna change my vote.

[freethedevil]

1. Dwight Howard, because he peaked way higher than mchale on better longetvity, was the best player in the regular seaosn in 2011 and a top 5 playoff player from 09-12. Lockerooom issues hurt a bit, but outplaying harden in the 14 postseason makes up for that. Also provided quality contibutions on an atg title team.

2. Manu Gnoblim, longetvity, longetvity longetvity, essentially mchale-level at his peak but with a signficantly longer prime.


3. Draymond Green. 16 and 7 Dray is the second highest peak of anyone here. Had a 5 year run as the clear cut best postseasn defender in the league anchoring the best postseason defense of his era. His 2016 finals is arguably --the-- best series performance of anyone left, and is the most portable player left. ATG Defense+a perfect cog on an atg offense on the team that defined the decade, made 5 straight finals. three of those finals were with draymond as the clear second best player, and his postseason impact has regular rated in the top 10. Also gets big off-court bonus as the main playcaller on both ends for the warriors and has demonstrated his knick as a second coach turning wiggins into a good defender.

Replacing Green with Giannis .. Easily best peak being a much better creator and score than davd robinson in the postseason on top of atg defenses and was adding top 10ish value as of 2017. peaks are expoentially mor evaluable the higher you go so Giannis having an atg peak in 2019 on top of multiple all-nba years and a strong mvp in 2020 is enough to see him go above manu, mchale, green,e ct.

Replacing Manu with Ray Allen, top 30 in actual corp, destroyed mvp iverson, insane longetivty, ect, ect.

1. Ray Allen
2. Giannis
3. Dwight Howard

[DQuinn1575]

My biggest criticism of McHale is that he wasn't able to bring his incredible 1987 season to a positive conclusion in the play-offs but it only puts him behind Manu and Pau for me in terms of players I'd otherwise probably have him ahead of.

Huh?

So it's McHale's fault that he fractured a bone in his foot?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-06-04-sp-4497-story.html

Instead of criticizing him for it, McHale should be recognized as a guy who did whatever it takes to go out there and try to help his team win, even if it meant risking what was potentially a career-ending injury. He was a warrior he played through more pain than just about any player ever. He knew that him, Bird and company were getting old and so he knew that 87 was probably their last legit shot at a title. So he wanted to be out there on the court playing. He knew that even him at 50% was still better than Greg Kite so the best chance the Celtics had to win was with him out there playing - even with all the pain in his foot.

Even with the pain he was in (and the other injuries the Celtics had) they still made it to the NBA finals - beating the Pistons in the ECF, one of the best conference finals series of all time. And then they gave the Lakers a run for their money in the NBA finals, even with all the injuries the Celtics had and even though Magic says 87 was the Lakers best team he ever played on.

Then McHale had surgery on his foot in the offseason - yet he still came back and played in 64 games the following year in 87-88, making all defensive 1st team and the all star team..not sure if any other player would have come back so strong from such a serious injury + surgery. McHale averaged over 20 PPG in each of the next 3 seasons that immediately followed his foot surgery. Even after his foot surgery he still played 6 more seasons, made 3 more all star teams, made 1st team all defense 1 more time and 2nd team all defense 2 more times.

I think derrick rose should have been voted into the top 30 for being willing to play despite career nuking injuries. You agree don't you? Wait you don't? Why is that?

Oh right, because players are rated based on what they contribute, not what they could have contributed if healthy.

I’ll see your Derrick Rose and raise you Bill Walton.

[Hal14]

1. Dwight Howard, because he peaked way higher than mchale on better longetvity, was the best player in the regular seaosn in 2011 and a top 5 playoff player from 09-12. Lockerooom issues hurt a bit, but outplaying harden in the 14 postseason makes up for that. Also provided quality contibutions on an atg title team.

2. Manu Gnoblim, longetvity, longetvity longetvity, essentially mchale-level at his peak but with a signficantly longer prime.


3. Draymond Green. 16 and 7 Dray is the second highest peak of anyone here. Had a 5 year run as the clear cut best postseasn defender in the league anchoring the best postseason defense of his era. His 2016 finals is arguably --the-- best series performance of anyone left, and is the most portable player left. ATG Defense+a perfect cog on an atg offense on the team that defined the decade, made 5 straight finals. three of those finals were with draymond as the clear second best player, and his postseason impact has regular rated in the top 10. Also gets big off-court bonus as the main playcaller on both ends for the warriors and has demonstrated his knick as a second coach turning wiggins into a good defender.

Replacing Green with Giannis .. Easily best peak being a much better creator and score than davd robinson in the postseason on top of atg defenses and was adding top 10ish value as of 2017. peaks are expoentially mor evaluable the higher you go so Giannis having an atg peak in 2019 on top of multiple all-nba years and a strong mvp in 2020 is enough to see him go above manu, mchale, green,e ct.

Replacing Manu with Ray Allen, top 30 in actual corp, destroyed mvp iverson, insane longetivty, ect, ect.

1. Ray Allen
2. Giannis
3. Dwight Howard

Ray Allen already got voted in so he's off the board.

And Giannis is an interesting pick - he's only played 6 seasons so far with 7+ PPG and more than 16 games in the same season - definitely less longevity than any player who's been voted in so far which is ironic considering you seem to be such a big advocate for longevity considering you said longevity 3 times in a row when discussing Ginobili (although you failed to spell Ginobili or longevity correctly) and Giannis is also an interesting pick considering he hasn't accomplished much in the playoffs but does have 2 regular season MVPs and you just got done saying how you "Don't care about the regular season to much an dreally don't care about media voting" I mean, this honestly really hilarious - the guy who just said he values "longevity, longevity, longevity" and "doesn't care about the regular season or media awards" now has Giannis at the top of his ballot

[freethedevil]

1. Dwight Howard, because he peaked way higher than mchale on better longetvity, was the best player in the regular seaosn in 2011 and a top 5 playoff player from 09-12. Lockerooom issues hurt a bit, but outplaying harden in the 14 postseason makes up for that. Also provided quality contibutions on an atg title team.

2. Manu Gnoblim, longetvity, longetvity longetvity, essentially mchale-level at his peak but with a signficantly longer prime.


3. Draymond Green. 16 and 7 Dray is the second highest peak of anyone here. Had a 5 year run as the clear cut best postseasn defender in the league anchoring the best postseason defense of his era. His 2016 finals is arguably --the-- best series performance of anyone left, and is the most portable player left. ATG Defense+a perfect cog on an atg offense on the team that defined the decade, made 5 straight finals. three of those finals were with draymond as the clear second best player, and his postseason impact has regular rated in the top 10. Also gets big off-court bonus as the main playcaller on both ends for the warriors and has demonstrated his knick as a second coach turning wiggins into a good defender.

Replacing Green with Giannis .. Easily best peak being a much better creator and score than davd robinson in the postseason on top of atg defenses and was adding top 10ish value as of 2017. peaks are expoentially mor evaluable the higher you go so Giannis having an atg peak in 2019 on top of multiple all-nba years and a strong mvp in 2020 is enough to see him go above manu, mchale, green,e ct.

Replacing Manu with Ray Allen, top 30 in actual corp, destroyed mvp iverson, insane longetivty, ect, ect.

1. Ray Allen
2. Giannis
3. Dwight Howard

Ray Allen already got voted in so he's off the board.

And Giannis is an interesting pick - he's only played 6 seasons so far with 7+ PPG and more than 16 games in the same season - definitely less longevity than any player who's been voted in so far which is ironic considering you seem to be such a big advocate for longevity considering you said longevity 3 times in a row when discussing Ginobili (although you failed to spell Ginobili or longevity correctly) and Giannis is also an interesting pick considering he hasn't accomplished much in the playoffs but does have 2 regular season MVPs and you just got done saying how you "Don't care about the regular season to much an dreally don't care about media voting" I mean, this honestly really hilarious - the guy who just said he values "longevity, longevity, longevity" and "doesn't care about the regular season or media awards" now has Giannis at the top of his ballot

Giannis's 2019 playoffs is vastly more impressive than anything
1. KD
2. Harden
3. David Robinson
has done.

The Raptors were a perennial 50 win team that made a conference final and the second round(already pretty good for a title team), then they traded demar defrozen for a top tier tim protector, dwane casey for arguably the best coach in the nba, saw their bench and siakim get way better and added a better version of kevin durant.

The bucks were an average team without giannis whose on eredeeming quality(spacing) vanished and they still lost to the raps on the margin of a van vleet hot streak, after demolishing a top ten defense, offense, and srs celtics team with giannis having arguably the second best offensive series of anyone those playoffs and arguably the best defensive series. Giannis's creation, scoring blows anywhting david robinson did oout of the park for that run and he anchored an atg -8 postseason defense. Giannis was already offensivelt a better postseason player as early as 2017.

Even just going by the playoffs, giannis in 19 and 20 is a much, much, mcuh better player than kevin mchale. Just because he didn't replicate a micheal-jordan+ regular season performance in the postseason doesn't mean he isn't an insanely valuable postseason player.

[Cavsfansince84]

Actually I forgot about giannis and AD, gonna change my vote.

ya, AD is a guy I wanted to start voting for soon. I think he is actually going to be third on my next ballot. imo he's done more in his career than Dwight actually did and is a better chemistry guy. I'm not high on Dwight's actual prime at all despite his reb numbers staying good for a long time. AD is a more consistent playoff performer as well imo.

[Odinn21]

51. Adrian Dantley
His prime level is just too good at this point and his prime lasted long enough. I feel like he shouldn't be separated from Pierce by a tier, and he should be in the next tier right after George Gervin. This was what I wrote about him in the Pierce vs. Dantley thread;

Spoiler:

Is Paul Pierce in the same category as either of these guys or is he the next level down with guys like Dominique Wilkins?

I feel like it goes something like this;
Pierce and Dantley in the same tier. English is half a tier below. Wilkins is at least one tier below than any of the other 3.

I never agreed with Dantley being a black hole or a ball stopper or being an ineffective 30 ppg scorer.
Interestingly, Magic's injury in 1989 NBA Finals has a huge impact on Dantley's career outlook.
The Bad Boys became contenders with Dantley's arrival in 1986. It feels very inaccurate to say Dantley was the problem when they went to game 7 in CF in '87 and game 7 in NBA Finals in '88 (could've won without the phantom foul on Abdul-Jabbar). Then Dantley was traded out for Aguirre and the Pistons win the title against one of the weakest competitions ever. Bam, Dantley's career outlook goes down the drain because there was no title with him but there's one without him at the first try.
Dantley's arrival, along with drastic improvement sophomore Dumars had, was the reason why the Pistons went from being 45-46W team with first or second round exit to being a contender.
And if his scoring wasn't impactful, the Jazz wouldn't be that successful in '84 and '85.

As for Dantley vs. English, I think Dantley peaked clearly higher for me. Prime to prime, I also see Dantley as clearly better than English. English just didn't match offensive quality and impact that Dantley had.
Also, I started a thread about similar comparison awhile back. You might want to take a look at the discussion on there.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1961034

Pierce vs. Dantley feels harder because Pierce wasn't the scorer Dantley was. OTOH, Pierce was in the top percentile in 10+ season RAPM. Yeah, we don't and can't have RAPM for the '80s but even though I'm high on Dantley's overall impact, I'm not that high. I can't put him in the top percentile impactful players in his time.
Pierce can't match Dantley's scoring, Dantley can't match Pierce's overall impact (defense and off-ball play being the major reasons). The era differences are always there to consider. I'd assume you ask about these SFs to figure out your preferences for the top 100 project? I currently have Pierce ahead of Dantley on there. That's probably because I usually have more confidence in my picks those I got to watch while their career was happening, not just relying on hindsight.

52. Kevin McHale
His peak was great. His prime duration was rather short but he's one interesting case that even though his regular season longevity doesn't stand out, his postseason longevity definitely does.

53. Dwight Howard
I might change this in the upcoming spots. He checks peak box for good. His peak was amazing. But even though the numbers he had for many seasons, I see his prime from 2007-08 to 2010-11. That's only 4 seasons of prime. Also, the way he conducted himself has always stuck with me. I remember him refusing Nash's help offer for better ft shooting in LA. He was like Shaquille O'Neal but with less talent. He wasn't too good and he refused to get better in some important aspects. That's not what I'd expect from a player of this calibre.
For Howard's case, it should be obvious that I see his value since I have him on my ballot. It's just that I have some reservations. In his case, he has to be one of the best rebounders ever along with his defensive performance. Just look at his rebounding rates through his career. Insane.

I have some thoughts about some notions;

- We're reaching to a point, postseason success wouldn't be taken for granted, let alone deep postseason runs.
What I mean is Ray Allen and Paul Pierce vs. Manu Ginobili and Chauncey Billups.
Manu Ginobili who was cracking under the managed load he was getting, Ginobili was a very impactful beast that you wouldn't be able to trust 75+ games per season and in each playoffs. I just don't see Ginobili doing what Ray Allen did in entire 2000-01 season and I don't see Ginobili making the playoffs with the teams Allen and Pierce had.
Billups wasn't as good or impactful as the other three.

I'd like to get a reason other than "Ginobili brought titles" for Ginobili because that's not what happened in general. Let's take a ride into the past, shall we?

2005- The postseason why Ginobili gets all the love in the world, but not some stick for what happened after.
2006- His overall production went up but his per possession efficiency, which made him great, went down. He was the reason why team fell behind the Mavs by 1-3 and he was also the reason why the game 7 was lost. That foul on Nowitzki right at the end in regular time was just utterly sh.tting the bed.
2007- This time, not only his overall production didn't went up, his per poss eff got worse again. His scoring efficiency got considerably worse. 2007 just doesn't stick out because the Spurs had a fairly easy ride to the title. The only contending team they faced was the Suns and we know what happened in that series. In the first 4 games of that series, Ginobili was 12/5/4 on .417 ts. Other than those games, it was a cakewalk for the Spurs and the issues Ginobili was having didn't grab much attention.
2008- He wasn't fully healthy against the Lakers. The Spurs were actual contenders up until Ginobili's health issues and because of that, they were just utterly outclassed by the Lakers. The only time Ginobili had a good game, the Spurs had a blowout by 19 points. That was the only Spurs win. In the 4 loses, Ginobili averaged 8/4/4 on .359 ts.
2009- He had missed 38 games in regular season and the entire playoffs.
2010- Similarly with 2006, his overall production went up, his per poss eff went down. Though I believe 2010 is the only time in his prime that can't be held against him other than 2005 for postseason issues.
2011- His injury and Duncan's mobility issues were the major reasons why the Spurs couldn't get out of the 1st rounds.

That's the end of prime Ginobili's timeline. Though if we continue;
2012- In the 4 straight games the Spurs lost to the Thunder, Ginobili underperforming was the major reason in 3 of those 4. He had a massive performance in game 5, he went 34/6/7 on .693 ts. In the other 3 games, he was 10/4/2 on .522 ts.
2013- He was also pretty bad against the Heat in the finals, other than game 5.

So, in short, Ginobili didn't brought success, championships as much as people like to believe. He was the reason why the Spurs were denied at a chance to repeat, twice.

Some statistical evidence of what I'm talking about. Ginobili had a very clear drop in his performance compared to regular season.
2006-11; 4.7 obpm in regular seasons vs. 3.3 obpm in playoffs (-1.4 obpm drop)
2006-13; 4.5 obpm in regular seasons vs. 2.7 obpm in playoffs (-1.8 obpm drop)

Particularly in 2006 Mavs series, first 4 games of 2007 Suns series, 2008 Lakers series, 2010 Suns series and 2011 Grizzlies series; 2.5 obpm. That's almost half of 4.7 obpm.
If we add 2012 Thunder series and 2013 Heat series to the already mentioned series; 1.9 obpm. That's less than half of 4.5 obpm.

When it got tough for the Spurs, when they faced a team that could beat them, Ginobili had major performance issues.

[Hal14]

Replacing Green with Giannis .. Easily best peak being a much better creator and score than davd robinson in the postseason on top of atg defenses and was adding top 10ish value as of 2017. peaks are expoentially mor evaluable the higher you go so Giannis having an atg peak in 2019 on top of multiple all-nba years and a strong mvp in 2020 is enough to see him go above manu, mchale, green,e ct.

Replacing Manu with Ray Allen, top 30 in actual corp, destroyed mvp iverson, insane longetivty, ect, ect.

1. Ray Allen
2. Giannis
3. Dwight Howard

Ray Allen already got voted in so he's off the board.

And Giannis is an interesting pick - he's only played 6 seasons so far with 7+ PPG and more than 16 games in the same season - definitely less longevity than any player who's been voted in so far which is ironic considering you seem to be such a big advocate for longevity considering you said longevity 3 times in a row when discussing Ginobili (although you failed to spell Ginobili or longevity correctly) and Giannis is also an interesting pick considering he hasn't accomplished much in the playoffs but does have 2 regular season MVPs and you just got done saying how you "Don't care about the regular season to much an dreally don't care about media voting" I mean, this honestly really hilarious - the guy who just said he values "longevity, longevity, longevity" and "doesn't care about the regular season or media awards" now has Giannis at the top of his ballot

Giannis's 2019 playoffs is vastly more impressive than anything
1. KD
2. Harden
3. David Robinson
has done.

The Raptors were a perennial 50 win team that made a conference final and the second round(already pretty good for a title team), then they traded demar defrozen for a top tier tim protector, dwane casey for arguably the best coach in the nba, saw their bench and siakim get way better and added a better version of kevin durant.

The bucks were an average team without giannis whose on eredeeming quality(spacing) vanished and they still lost to the raps on the margin of a van vleet hot streak, after demolishing a top ten defense, offense, and srs celtics team with giannis having arguably the second best offensive series of anyone those playoffs and arguably the best defensive series. Giannis's creation, scoring blows anywhting david robinson did oout of the park for that run and he anchored an atg -8 postseason defense. Giannis was already offensivelt a better postseason player as early as 2017.

Even just going by the playoffs, giannis in 19 and 20 is a much, much, mcuh better player than kevin mchale. Just because he didn't replicate a micheal-jordan+ regular season performance in the postseason doesn't mean he isn't an insanely valuable postseason player.

If this was a poll of "Greatest Players of all time during their first 7 seasons" then maybe Giannis would be worth mentioning here. But no, It's top 100 Players of all time..meaning top 100 CAREERS of all time. Giannis was a non factor his rookie year, he's only played 16 games this year so he's only really played 6 seasons and he's never got his team to the finals. The only player who's been voted into this poll so far who is even remotely the same level longevity-wise as Giannis is Mikan - and he was the best player on FIVE ABA/NBA championship teams...Giannis has never even played in the NBA finals.

Personally, I only rank players who played at least 10 seasons, combined between NBA abd ABA. And I only rank retired players. If they're still active, there's still so much uncertainty about what they may or may not do in the future - I'd rather wait till they retire and be able to judge their entire career at that point.

Not to mention I literally feel myself getting dumber each time I read one of your posts - between the spelling, grammar, punctuation, and lack of knowledge of any player who played before the year 2000.

[freethedevil]

Actually I forgot about giannis and AD, gonna change my vote.

ya, AD is a guy I wanted to start voting for soon. I think he is actually going to be third on my next ballot. imo he's done more in his career than Dwight actually did and is a better chemistry guy. I'm not high on Dwight's actual prime at all despite his reb numbers staying good for a long time. AD is a more consistent playoff performer as well imo.

How about dwight's 2011

[Cavsfansince84]

Actually I forgot about giannis and AD, gonna change my vote.

ya, AD is a guy I wanted to start voting for soon. I think he is actually going to be third on my next ballot. imo he's done more in his career than Dwight actually did and is a better chemistry guy. I'm not high on Dwight's actual prime at all despite his reb numbers staying good for a long time. AD is a more consistent playoff performer as well imo.

How about dwight's 2011

That was a good run. I think he had 3 strong playoff runs.

[freethedevil]

ya, AD is a guy I wanted to start voting for soon. I think he is actually going to be third on my next ballot. imo he's done more in his career than Dwight actually did and is a better chemistry guy. I'm not high on Dwight's actual prime at all despite his reb numbers staying good for a long time. AD is a more consistent playoff performer as well imo.

How about dwight's 2011

That was a good run. I think he had 3 strong playoff runs.

They weren't superstar years, but I think he did very well on the rockets. Davis had 15, 18, and 20, Dwight doesn't have anything as good as 2020, but 11, 12, 09, the rocket runs aren't too shabby in totality. And then you get into longetivty and his 2020 run wasn't worthless. If AD has a good postseason this year, I'd put him ahead, but atm, I think dwight's just got too many years of value

[Baski]

1. Dwight Howard
Beast of a rebounder (13th all time and 11th for offensive, 6 time rebounding leader) and defender (3 straight DPOY, surprisingly low 5 time All Defense), Dwight peaked as an MVP candidate (38th all time in MVP shares).
I doubt there's anyone who actually doubts Dwight's massive defensive impact in his prime, but it's pretty cool that there was an academic paper written to illustrate how he and other bigs like him were were able to captain league-leading defenses year in and year out:
https://docplayer.net/4267600-The-dwight-effect-a-new-ensemble-of-interior-defense-analytics-for-the-nba.html

Pretty good read. It was eye-opening for me, at a time before tracking data became all the rage.

On offense, Dwight had everything you'd want in a garbage man big. All-world athleticism and decent offensive awareness that allowed him to set hard screens, roll hard, clean up the boards and catch lobs. He has an elite career 60% TS even though he had that phase where he tried to be Shaq. Perhaps if he were paired with an elite playmaker like a Nash, CP3 or LeBron in his prime, his offensive value would've been far higher.

2. Kevin McHale

3. Manu Ginobili

I wouldn't place Manu as #53 but I'm using this spot to state my order of preference for the guys with traction

[sansterre]

1. Dwight Howard - I'll be honest. TRex got to me. Howard absolutely led a team to the Finals with a team of basically skilled role-players. And this wasn't like the '01 Sixers; the '09 Magic were actually really good and beat one of the best regular season teams ever in the '09 Cavs. He does suffer from a longevity problem. His peak was extreme but he wasn't at it for *that* long before he got hobbled. But I think that, on reflection, if you're at the level where you can carry a modest (albeit perfectly tailored) supporting cast to the Finals in a non-fluky way, even a narrow peak deserves some serious credit.

2. Manu Ginobili - Good scorer, good passer, good defender, solid rebounder in his peak for a 2. Yeah he didn't play a ton of minutes and yeah he had occasional playoff struggles but his AuRPMs at his peak are insanely high.

3. Sam Jones - I think that Win Shares overrates him, his career was fairly short and little I read suggests that Jones was anything more than a sufficient defender. But I'm impressed by his postseason scoring chops (by which I mean his efficiency went up in the playoffs), especially given that he was the only freaking scorer on that team for much of his career and everybody could reasonably bet that he was getting the ball.

Theoretical counterpoint; I remember a Yankees pitcher (Lefty Gomez?) saying that it was worth it to take a pay cut to play on the Yankees, simply because you'd never have to face the Yankees' hitters then. In a 30-team league I don't think it matters, but in an 8-team league, are we sure that Sam Jones' above-average efficiency wasn't just a product of not needing to play the Celtics' defense 14% of the time?

[trex_8063]

Not to mention I literally feel myself getting dumber each time I read one of your posts - between the spelling, grammar, punctuation, and lack of knowledge of any player who played before the year 2000.

Cautioning you about personal attacks. Just stick to the basketball arguments, don't make it personal.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #33:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
*Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1?? (*freethedevil)


Not sure what to do with your vote, freethedevil: it was initially Dwight > Manu > Dray, then you came in saying you’d completely forgot about Giannis and AD, and so declared a revised ballot of Ray > Giannis > Howard…….upon which you’re informed by another poster that Allen is already voted in---a post you replied to, so I know you saw it----yet you did not offer a 2nd revision. So I’m assuming Freak > Howard > Manu. You can let me know if I am in error (though do try to be more clear in the future).

Probably looking at about 8 or so more hours for this thread.
Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.

btw--Thank you Cavsfansince84, for paying attention and stating your order on those three .

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[penbeast0]

... in an 8-team league, are we sure that Sam Jones' above-average efficiency wasn't just a product of not needing to play the Celtics' defense 14% of the time?

Interesting idea; possibly even bigger in terms of relative playoff efficiency since the Celtics were an even larger percentage of the playoff teams in his career.

[DQuinn1575]

... in an 8-team league, are we sure that Sam Jones' above-average efficiency wasn't just a product of not needing to play the Celtics' defense 14% of the time?

Interesting idea; possibly even bigger in terms of relative playoff efficiency since the Celtics were an even larger percentage of the playoff teams in his career.

Yes, there would be some of that, (actually it is 9 team league, as the Chicago team came in at the start of his prime.) You can also argue it is pre expansion, so there are only 9 teams.

Conversely, in the 9 Game 7's that Jones played in, Jones shot 49.3% from the field (100 out of 203), while the rest of the team shot 38.9% (295 out of 758).

So in 9 deciding games, 7 of which were decided by 5 points or less, including a 1 pointer, 3 two point games, and an overtime, Jones shot about (technically more) 10% better than the rest of all these hall of famers - also shooting 89.8% from the line vs the rest of the team's 73.8%

So take Sam Jones out of those games, and assume the rest of the team shoots the same in his place - they lose 4 of the games -
62 vs LA, 65 vs PHI, 66 vs LA, 69 vs LA, with 62 vs PHI being a tie. Does that mean no Jones, 4-5 less titles? That may be a bit much.

And yes, it's only 9 games. But each and every time the Celtics won. Jones was a big reason they won. He wasn't along for the ride.
Even in 1959, when he was a sub behind Sharman and Cousy, he went 6-12 while the rest of the team shot 35.8% (44 out of 123).


1. Sam Jones
2. Dave Cowens
3. Dwight Howard

Both Cowens and Howard were top players in the league for years - Cowens peaked higher, and was more impacful in a couple of playoffs.

[euroleague]

Players on my board:

Low efficiency, High fan-appeal - Bob Cousy, Allen Iverson

Big Men, Short Careers - Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton

Still Active and over 80 inches tall - Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Dwight Howard

First thought: I have Cousy at #30, so obviously I think he belongs here are real soon after. He checks a lot of boxes that no one left can.

-He has 10 all-NBA first team selections, no remaining player has more than half that many.
-He won a title and the MVP in the same season. He's the only guy left to make that claim in the NBA.
-He was a member of the 25th and 35th anniversary teams, one of the 50 greatest in 1996 and the first superstar little-man in the NBA.

I won't bother arguing about his obvious flaws, especially statistically, but they simply weren't nearly as problematic then as they'd be today and his resume and reputation reinforce that absolutely. I think basing anything on Bob Cousy's shooting percentage is really missing the point.

Iverson is another guy who this community tends to look down upon for an efficiency flaw that was much less of a concern in his era. Despite his inefficiency, he put together a very impressive resume, indisputably better than a few contemporaries who have been selected above him, based on hypothetical projections/suppositions. If we are going to do the hypothetical game, it seems highly probable that a modern Iverson both benefits from the improved spacing and spends much more time developing his three-point shot which would be a much bigger part of his offense you'd have to assume. His efficiency likely improves significantly with the advantage of better strategy and coaching.

Iverson and Cousy both represent for me this community properly pointing some flaws that were probably overlooked too much in their time, but putting much emphasis on them retroactively and punishing these players to an excessive degree.

On to the old centers. 1969 MVP Wes Unseld, 1973 MVP Dave Cowens and 1978 MVP Bill Walton. They all added titles to their resume as star players and team leaders and Walton and Unseld added Finals MVP awards.

The list of guys left with MVP's and Rings as a lead player is pretty short. It's these three and Cousy. And that's what elevates them into this bracket for me. Reaching one of the highest levels of individual success and team success. Walton has the highest peak, followed by Cowens and then Unseld. Unseld has the longest prime followed by Cowens then Walton. I prefer peak to prime and both to longevity, but it's hard to ignore that these guys don't stack up in terms of length of peak, prime or career with most more modern stars being considered right now.

I'm interested in takes on Walton. It seems to me that if just finishes out the 1978 season and the Blazers win the title and then he just has 6-7 more solid healthy seasons where he is at least an all-NBA player, he's a top 10-15 lock. So that's hard to ignore, even though he didn't have the longevity. In just under two prime years he accomplished more all but maybe 10-15 of players in terms of the peak he reached.

With Willis Reed off the board, I expect Cowens to go pretty soon. They are two pretty comparable players in terms of resume from roughly the same era. It's hard for me to separate them too much. I have Reed one spot above Cowens in the late-40's to early 50s range these days.

Unseld I struggle with. Does he belong in the Cowens/Reed/Gilmore class? Or is he better placed with Parish/McAdoo/Lanier/Mourning/Thurmond?

As for the active players remaining on my board, I ask sincerely, how do Ray Allen and Paul Pierce rank above a two-time MVP and a 4-time All-NBA first team player with a ring in a superstar 1B role?

I understand the longevity argument, but you're talking about no all-NBA first teams between the two of them and never better than a 7th or 9th place finish in the MVP race. They are just not the same level players as Davis and Giannis who have been at some point of their career, the best player at their position in the league. Would everyone really rather have a Pierce or Allen career over almost a decade of Giannis or Davis we've had so far?

Anyway, those are my thoughts, here is my vote:


First Vote: Bob Cousy



Second Vote: Bill Walton



Third Vote: Anthony Davis

Giannis is another guy who should get traction soon. Multi MVP and DPOY, is there really any reason he is behind Ray Allen?

[freethedevil]

Thru post #33:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
*Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1?? (*freethedevil)


Not sure what to do with your vote, freethedevil: it was initially Dwight > Manu > Dray, then you came in saying you’d completely forgot about Giannis and AD, and so declared a revised ballot of Ray > Giannis > Howard…….upon which you’re informed by another poster that Allen is already voted in---a post you replied to, so I know you saw it----yet you did not offer a 2nd revision. So I’m assuming Freak > Howard > Manu. You can let me know if I am in error (though do try to be more clear in the future).

Probably looking at about 8 or so more hours for this thread.
Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.

btw--Thank you Cavsfansince84, for paying attention and stating your order on those three .

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[Hal14]

Players on my board:

Low efficiency, High fan-appeal - Bob Cousy, Allen Iverson

Big Men, Short Careers - Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton

Still Active and over 80 inches tall - Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Dwight Howard

First thought: I have Cousy at #30, so obviously I think he belongs here are real soon after. He checks a lot of boxes that no one left can.

-He has 10 all-NBA first team selections, no remaining player has more than half that many.
-He won a title and the MVP in the same season. He's the only guy left to make that claim in the NBA.
-He was a member of the 25th and 35th anniversary teams, one of the 50 greatest in 1996 and the first superstar little-man in the NBA.

I won't bother arguing about his obvious flaws, especially statistically, but they simply weren't nearly as problematic then as they'd be today and his resume and reputation reinforce that absolutely. I think basing anything on Bob Cousy's shooting percentage is really missing the point.

Iverson is another guy who this community tends to look down upon for an efficiency flaw that was much less of a concern in his era. Despite his inefficiency, he put together a very impressive resume, indisputably better than a few contemporaries who have been selected above him, based on hypothetical projections/suppositions. If we are going to do the hypothetical game, it seems highly probable that a modern Iverson both benefits from the improved spacing and spends much more time developing his three-point shot which would be a much bigger part of his offense you'd have to assume. His efficiency likely improves significantly with the advantage of better strategy and coaching.

Iverson and Cousy both represent for me this community properly pointing some flaws that were probably overlooked too much in their time, but putting much emphasis on them retroactively and punishing these players to an excessive degree.

On to the old centers. 1969 MVP Wes Unseld, 1973 MVP Dave Cowens and 1978 MVP Bill Walton. They all added titles to their resume as star players and team leaders and Walton and Unseld added Finals MVP awards.

The list of guys left with MVP's and Rings as a lead player is pretty short. It's these three and Cousy. And that's what elevates them into this bracket for me. Reaching one of the highest levels of individual success and team success. Walton has the highest peak, followed by Cowens and then Unseld. Unseld has the longest prime followed by Cowens then Walton. I prefer peak to prime and both to longevity, but it's hard to ignore that these guys don't stack up in terms of length of peak, prime or career with most more modern stars being considered right now.

I'm interested in takes on Walton. It seems to me that if just finishes out the 1978 season and the Blazers win the title and then he just has 6-7 more solid healthy seasons where he is at least an all-NBA player, he's a top 10-15 lock. So that's hard to ignore, even though he didn't have the longevity. In just under two prime years he accomplished more all but maybe 10-15 of players in terms of the peak he reached.

With Willis Reed off the board, I expect Cowens to go pretty soon. They are two pretty comparable players in terms of resume from roughly the same era. It's hard for me to separate them too much. I have Reed one spot above Cowens in the late-40's to early 50s range these days.

Unseld I struggle with. Does he belong in the Cowens/Reed/Gilmore class? Or is he better placed with Parish/McAdoo/Lanier/Mourning/Thurmond?

As for the active players remaining on my board, I ask sincerely, how do Ray Allen and Paul Pierce rank above a two-time MVP and a 4-time All-NBA first team player with a ring in a superstar 1B role?

I understand the longevity argument, but you're talking about no all-NBA first teams between the two of them and never better than a 7th or 9th place finish in the MVP race. They are just not the same level players as Davis and Giannis who have been at some point of their career, the best player at their position in the league. Would everyone really rather have a Pierce or Allen career over almost a decade of Giannis or Davis we've had so far?

Anyway, those are my thoughts, here is my vote:


First Vote: Bob Cousy



Second Vote: Bill Walton



Third Vote: Anthony Davis

Giannis is another guy who should get traction soon. Multi MVP and DPOY, is there really any reason he is behind Ray Allen?

Because Giannis has by far the worst longevity of any player who's been voted in so far, with only 6 productive seasons and 0 NBA finals appearances. Personally, I only rank retired players. If I'm gonna rank an active player, they've gotta have at least 10 seasons already played in their career.