Tank World Order

[Morse Code]

The anti tanker arguments in here are weak asf. As if the Spurs hofers didn’t play with THE GREATEST PF OF ALL TIME, and as if the assets we have to trade for a star wouldn’t leave us bare bones after the trade. Trading our best prospects for jimmy butler wouldn’t be even remotely comparable to adding him to the current heat roster. Also, Hero is not a #1 option so using him as a “you don’t need lottery picks” example is weak.

[DelAbbot]

The problem with this argument is: was Masai/Bobby/Tolzman making those lottery picks?

Sacramento Kings have been in the tank since 2009

2009 #4 Tyreke Evans
2010 #5 DeMarcus Cousins
2011 #7 Bismack Biyombo (traded)
2012 #5 Thomas Robinson
2013 #7 Ben McLemore
2014 #8 Nik Stauskas
2015 #6 Willie Caulie Stein
2016 #8 Marquis Chriss
2017 #5 DeAronn Fox
2018 #2 Marvin Bagley
2020 #12 Tyrese Haliburton

They made some good picks (some very good), some ok picks and some bad picks.
Today they are still a team with some good prospects and a lot of promise and heading back to the lottery for more.

[bluerap23]

The problem with this argument is: was Masai/Bobby/Tolzman making those lottery picks?

Sacramento Kings have been in the tank since 2009

2009 #4 Tyreke Evans
2010 #5 DeMarcus Cousins
2011 #7 Bismack Biyombo (traded)
2012 #5 Thomas Robinson
2013 #7 Ben McLemore
2014 #8 Nik Stauskas
2015 #6 Willie Caulie Stein
2016 #8 Marquis Chriss
2017 #5 DeAronn Fox
2018 #2 Marvin Bagley
2020 #12 Tyrese Haliburton

They made some good picks (some very good), some ok picks and some bad picks.
Today they are still a team with some good prospects and a lot of promise and heading back to the lottery for more.

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

[bluerap23]

The anti tanker arguments in here are weak asf. As if the Spurs hofers didn’t play with THE GREATEST PF OF ALL TIME, and as if the assets we have to trade for a star wouldn’t leave us bare bones after the trade. Trading our best prospects for jimmy butler wouldn’t be even remotely comparable to adding him to the current heat roster. Also, Hero is not a #1 option so using him as a “you don’t need lottery picks” example is weak.

Hero is a terrible example - you are right.

I prefer these examples:
Jokic
Giannis
Kawhi

[DelAbbot]

The problem with this argument is: was Masai/Bobby/Tolzman making those lottery picks?

Sacramento Kings have been in the tank since 2009

2009 #4 Tyreke Evans
2010 #5 DeMarcus Cousins
2011 #7 Bismack Biyombo (traded)
2012 #5 Thomas Robinson
2013 #7 Ben McLemore
2014 #8 Nik Stauskas
2015 #6 Willie Caulie Stein
2016 #8 Marquis Chriss
2017 #5 DeAronn Fox
2018 #2 Marvin Bagley
2020 #12 Tyrese Haliburton

They made some good picks (some very good), some ok picks and some bad picks.
Today they are still a team with some good prospects and a lot of promise and heading back to the lottery for more.

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

[bluerap23]

The problem with this argument is: was Masai/Bobby/Tolzman making those lottery picks?

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

[DelAbbot]

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Is that how Spurs got Tim Duncan?

[Marty_Budda]

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Didn’t the mavs tank for luka?

[bluerap23]

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Is that how Spurs got Tim Duncan?

The spurs got Tim Duncan because their best player, David Robinson broke his foot. Do you think that was intentional?

[bluerap23]

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Didn’t the mavs tank for luka?

The Mavs traded for Luka. But yes they were tanking and got the #5 pick.

Being lucky enough to turn the #5 pick into Luka (Luka being passed over by two teams and traded by a third) is luckier than trading DeMar for Kawhi.

Still it is one point for two.

[MixxSRC]

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Is that how Spurs got Tim Duncan?

The spurs got Tim Duncan because their best player, David Robinson broke his foot. Do you think that was intentional?

Pop fired the coach then started to coach the team. Rumors were that Robinson could've came back in a middle of the season. There were definitely something brewing back then. Can't just chalk it up to injuries

[Marty_Budda]

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Didn’t the mavs tank for luka?

The Mavs traded for Luka. But yes they were tanking and got the #5 pick.

Being lucky enough to turn the #5 pick into Luka (Luka being passed over by two teams and traded by a third) is luckier than trading DeMar for Kawhi.

Still it is one point for two.

How are either of those lucky? It’s just competent management.

Mavs obviously wanted luka the entire season but had to trade up for him. But they obviously saw what nobody else saw. Hindsight is 20/20 and luka wasn’t seen as a can’t miss prospect at the time (hence why he went 3rd). Trading your 5th pick and a future 1st for the 3rd pick isn’t luck.

Same thing with Kawhi. Every organization - not even the clippers (even tho he wanted LA) wanted to pull the trigger for him. Masai took the risk knowing he could surround him with an amazing squad and it worked.

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

[KL78192020]

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Is that how Spurs got Tim Duncan?

The spurs got Tim Duncan because their best player, David Robinson broke his foot. Do you think that was intentional?

They definitely tanked. Robinson could've comeback but they sat him out, he was supposed to be out only 6 weeks. Spurs milked it as it was a lost season. He plays the spurs never get Duncan and well the rest is history.

Robinson broke a bone in his left foot in the fourth quarter of Monday night’s 90-79 loss to Miami at San Antonio. Robinson, who sat out the first 18 games of the season because of back problems, will have surgery this week and will be out about six weeks.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-12-24-sp-12159-story.html

Just like the Warriors tanked last year and got Wiseman, who could be a stud. Curry could've comeback sooner.

[JShuttlesworth]

But the picks are pretty decent. I can post a similar story every day with a different team for a couple weeks.

That's ignoring my point. We have a competent management and scout who can realize the potential value of those lottery picks better than most.

My counterpoint is competent management teams do not tank.

Really? Because we've been sitting a lot of players with boo boos lately.

[Steelo Green]

The counterpoint to decades of top picks being elite and being franchise players is Jokic, Kawhi and Giannis.

2 of which were just outside the lottery.

Plenty of competent managements have tanked. People are just making up history because they disagree.

[KL78192020]

The counterpoint to decades of top picks being elite and being franchise players is Jokic, Kawhi and Giannis.

2 of which were just outside the lottery.

Plenty of competent managements have tanked. People are just making up history because they disagree.

At the end of the day it just comes down to having competent management and a little luck, have some teams that tanked failed; of course.

If people believe in Masai/Webster then tanking shouldn't be an issue. Teams with bad management will fail in trades/free agent signings regardless, not just their tanking and drafting.

[bluerap23]

Didn’t the mavs tank for luka?

The Mavs traded for Luka. But yes they were tanking and got the #5 pick.

Being lucky enough to turn the #5 pick into Luka (Luka being passed over by two teams and traded by a third) is luckier than trading DeMar for Kawhi.

Still it is one point for two.

How are either of those lucky? It’s just competent management.

Mavs obviously wanted luka the entire season but had to trade up for him. But they obviously saw what nobody else saw. Hindsight is 20/20 and luka wasn’t seen as a can’t miss prospect at the time (hence why he went 3rd). Trading your 5th pick and a future 1st for the 3rd pick isn’t luck.

Same thing with Kawhi. Every organization - not even the clippers (even tho he wanted LA) wanted to pull the trigger for him. Masai took the risk knowing he could surround him with an amazing squad and it worked.

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

I could make the same argument about the Kawhi acquisition (the one that many TWO make). Raptors saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. The argument that some TWO people make is that it would never happen again.

I'd make the same argument about the Luka acquisition. What is the likelihood that a 19 year old Euroleague MVP would be passed over by his national team coach and two other organizations? What is the likelihood that a team would trade Luka for a 5ft 10 pg?

I take nothing away from Dallas in this and I gave it as a good point for TWO.

Just saying that it is not really repeatable. You are more likely to be able to acquire a Kawhi type prospect in a draft day trade.

It is also more likely that you would be able to turn a Pascal type into a superstar via trade (with picks attached obv).

[KL78192020]

The Mavs traded for Luka. But yes they were tanking and got the #5 pick.

Being lucky enough to turn the #5 pick into Luka (Luka being passed over by two teams and traded by a third) is luckier than trading DeMar for Kawhi.

Still it is one point for two.

How are either of those lucky? It’s just competent management.

Mavs obviously wanted luka the entire season but had to trade up for him. But they obviously saw what nobody else saw. Hindsight is 20/20 and luka wasn’t seen as a can’t miss prospect at the time (hence why he went 3rd). Trading your 5th pick and a future 1st for the 3rd pick isn’t luck.

Same thing with Kawhi. Every organization - not even the clippers (even tho he wanted LA) wanted to pull the trigger for him. Masai took the risk knowing he could surround him with an amazing squad and it worked.

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

I could make the same argument about the Kawhi acquisition (the one that many TWO make). Raptors saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. The argument that some TWO people make is that it would never happen again.

I'd make the same argument about the Luka acquisition. What is the likelihood that a 19 year old Euroleague MVP would be passed over by his national team coach and two other organizations? What is the likelihood that a team would trade Luka for a 5ft 10 pg?

I take nothing away from Dallas in this and I gave it as a good point for TWO.

Just saying that it is not really repeatable. You are more likely to be able to acquire a Kawhi type prospect in a draft day trade.

It is also more likely that you would be able to turn a Pascal type into a superstar via trade (with picks attached obv).

Who said it has to be an exact repeat of Luka? The only argument being made is that the best talent is always drafted in the top 5-6 picks the MAJORITY of the time. There are always outliers like Kawhi/Giannis.

[Inevitable]

Also to my point about LaMelo, the Hornets would never be able to acquire a talent like him in free agency or through trades without gutting their entire roster/asset base. Even though they have a better track record in signing FAs, they still rely on the draft for talent much like we will have to going forward.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I don't even understand this argument.

Ok, so it's unlikely you're going to draft the next LeBron, Giannis, Luka, etc.

Yes it is, no one is arguing that.

So the argument is then that the Raptors are more likely to either sign or trade a middling package for LeBron, Giannis or Luka?

This doesn't even acknowledge that you don't NEED an all time great player to build something meaningful. Obviously it would be nice, but it's such a bad faith argument that you need to get LeBron. So you're telling me it's unlikely a team can get the best/2nd best player of all time?

Put the scenarios to a neutral party and I think it becomes pretty obvious which scenario is best for acquiring high end talent/assets.