1988 Bird vs 2020 LeBron

[MyUniBroDavis]

^ No disrespect but a lot of what you posted there is kind of convoluted. I don't need to really guess that Bird would put up better numbers in 2020 than he did in 1984 or 1988. We can clearly see the last several years how all-stars have seen their numbers jump up dramatically.
It's not just Lebron putting up more impressive numbers than peak Bird. It's also Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Giannis, and Harden all putting up more impressive numbers than Bird. Either all these guys are better than Bird (offensively at least) or there is something going on...

Comparing all of their numbers to Bird as proof that the current league is easier to score in isn’t fair to modern players. And again, I do agree that in general superstars are more efficient today. But there are clear ways to adjust for that effeciency and lebron still comes out substantially better than bird in that regard.

When we analyze each player, it’s not really surprising why they rank ahead in box score stats, since we are mainly talking about as scorers.

Durants a flat out better scorer. I don’t think that should be debatable, but incase it is. Let’s clarify that midrange percentages haven’t really risen much, more so they’ve gotten closer in. Catch and shoot midrange shave gone down vs pull-ups which aren’t all that down. Durant shot above 50% in the midrange in both short middies and long ones, along with being crazy athletic and good at using his length at the rim. Durant gets a lot of hate, and it’s fair to say the warriors helped his effeciency a bit but as a scorer he really is one of the best scoring wings ever by such a wide margin it isn’t even funny

Harden plays in the most 5 out offense in the nba, and essentially with harden his main ability is to break down his opposing defender off the dribble with his handles. Harden probably has the best handles out of any wing ever, and even if that’s a bold claim to be honest anyone that knows what to look for when they see ball handling and dribbling skills would probably agree, but this kind of takes a level of having actually played a bit

Kawhi is a discount Kobe, less athleticism and overall skill, but stronger and longer with bigger hands and a slightly better three point shot. I’ve mentioned how Kobe played in an offense that really hurt his effeciency, (the triangle sucks) and his scoring numbers were better than Birds.

Curry GOAT shooter

Giannis is a freak of nature on a different scale playing in a 5 out offense

When it comes to the playoffs, only curry, 17-19 Durant, and a year of Kawhi maintain their effectiveness. Durant/curry being better scorers than bird isn’t controversial, Kawhi having a year or two where he goes off shouldn’t be either

You’re arguement would be a lot more valid if bird was consistently the highest volume and most efficient scorer of his time. However, we don’t see this pan out at all, 87 and 88 are the only years he really separated himself from the pack as a scorer, but in general he was pretty much in line in effeciency and volume as the other top scorers in his era.

This is purely off box scores and bird did operate off ball more than other superstar scorers did, but either way he did this out of necessity, he’s not gonna be doing crossovers and skying for dunks past Pippen or anything.

No disrespect to you at all because you did your research and responded with some research behind it but I don't even want to argue that today's era is inflated. That's clear as day to anyone who watches the current NBA. I'm supposed to think that a guy with Dirk's shooting ability, better defense, GOAT-level passing vision (even over Lebron), and just being a basketball savant in terms of reading impossible plays would somehow not annihilate today's NBA? Bird could easily put up James Harden scoring numbers. Like in his sleep... Lebron in his peak was obviously a better defender and his ballhandling was superior to Bird too so that's why peak Lebron has a case against peak Bird and this is a very close and very beaten argument as well. But 2020 Lebron against peak Bird. That to me is Bird quite clearly.

The problem with youre argument is in general when we compare guys like harden/Durant/Kawhi/curry/Giannis to Birds peers as scorers in that era, vs Mark Aguirre/Kiki/Gervin/King etc, it’s not particularly close

Lebron in the 2020 playoffs separated himself from that group more than bird did as a scorer

Passing wise assists are down in the league

Now I do think bird would be more effective today but saying he’d put up harden like numbers in his sleep when hardens numbers are a function of a very unique offense the rockets ran that no one else did, + hardens style of play which is basically the opposite of birds, just isn’t true

I’m not saying group 2 is garbage, but it’d be one thing if bird was a decisively better and more efficient scorer than all of them if we want to argue bird should be the best scorer today based off of who is the best scorer today. It’s different if his raw scoring numbers and effeciency don’t stand out from that group at all. To be blunt the second group doesn’t compare to group A.

Re: Defense
Being behind Kawhi, Tatum, Siakam and Butler as you said actually proves my point IMO. Being the 5th best starting SF in the league defensively is actually not that impressive. And probably points to being a slight positive which is what I originally claimed. I never said he was a neutral defender. I said slight positive which I still think is fair.

Jrue holiday and Lowry all rank worse among guards, are they small positives?

You’re taking the all defensive team rankings and using them as gospel which quite frankly is ridiculous. Ramona shelbourne ranked lebron as mvp last year so lebron was better than Giannis. Doncic and Westbrook got all defensive votes so they deserve to be called top defenders. Hassan whiteside and Drummond were both top 5 defensive centers

You're wrong about Butler scoring almost all points through ball screens. He beat Lebron off the dribble with no screens multiple times which resulted in complete defensive breakdowns. Butler got to the rim at will against Lebron. In Game 6 he just looked gassed and besides... Even if Lebron really did shut him down in Game 6 after failing in the first five games that still doesn't give me any indication that I'm wrong and that anything more than slight positive is an overstatement of his abilities.

Counting through, I counted butler scoring or getting an assist on lebron without a ball screen involved three times. I’m sorry but the idea that butler torched lebron on isolation is false

The ball screens usually involved Howard not dropping correctly but lebron was caught a few times, to see bron was utterly destroyed 1v1 by butler isn’t true, and to blame him for not being able to guard ball screens when it’s inherently a 2 man action on defense and Howard wasn’t dropping correctly and caught in no mans land a lot would be ridiculous.

To be blunt here, the data we have doesn’t show lebron as being a top 5 perimeter defender. It shows him being a top 5 defender period

I don’t know if I agree with that, although him being the best perimeter defender in the playoffs was pretty obvious and is also backed up by data.

If you’re going to say I didn’t post stats after I posted them, and ignore the only real data we have that can at all show impact defensively, and instead rely on media votes that almost put Hassan freaking whiteside and Drummond in an all defensive team, then what’s the point?

I’m gonna be honest here. If you’re gonna argue Lebron isn’t a top level defender, you need strong evidence.

All Defensive team voting isn’t evidence. I can use that same logic to justify a million different ridiculous things.

You can’t just ignore the defensive metrics that show Lebron as a top 5 level defender in the nba. You can’t go back to the weakest point in the discussion and imply being the 5th best forward defender, (and saying sf defender isn’t fair since we know Giannis/AD/Bam all spent a lot of time at center, esp when they needed to play good D), which would be clearly top 10 as a perimeter defender, is a “slight positive.”

By that logic, Bird ranked 6th out of forwards in scoring volume so he was only a slightly positive scorer

But that’s ridiculous isn’t it?



If you’re going to have a serious discussion about his defense

Then address my main points, don’t ignore them just because they don’t fit with your side of the argument, don’t go back to a single point or two in the debate that aren’t even part of my argument and we’re part of yours

Like at the moment your justification for lebrons declining defense is your eye test, and in at least one way it’s been wrong (butler took bron off the dribble without a ball screen involved less than 5 times the entire series), and all defensive voting which puts him at elite, since I think it’s clear forward defenders are more impactful than guard defenders, they still put him as top 10 perimeter defenders in the nba pretty easily.

But rather than address all defensive voting which is pretty useless, address why nearly every single measurement of defensive impact we have rates lebron significantly better than where I’m arguing he is

I get it doesn’t fit your viewpoint and that’s fine. But at the same time you have to be open to other views. There’s a dude that said mike conley is the mvp in the discussion forum, obv that’s a different level of take but you need to be open to other opinions here

Off-ball skills are precisely why I believe peak Bird is definitely comparable to peak Lebron. Most good teams have good on-ball players and will likely get better adding Bird than they would Lebron. Lebron is the better floor-raiser and Bird the better ceiling-raiser to me.

The idea of floor raiser and ceiling raiser is overblown

Lebron is a great floor raiser obviously, but a ceiling raiser would just mean how good your offense can be

It would make sense is Lebron either has never shown an off ball game, which he has, or has never led a high tier offense in the playoffs

But lebrons best playoff offenses (2016,2017,2020) all are better than birds best playoff offense, so it’s a weird comparison to make. The fact that lebrons more ball dominant shouldn’t mean much when he’s quite literally the best ever in his role, and you don’t build a team by adding random player x to it you build it around a player


Either way most of this comes down to defense


Media vote isn’t gonna be a legitimate argument. I could literally throw a picture of skip battles and explain why it shows a game winning fadeaway by lebron is a bad play and that has the same value


Pretty much all metrics unanimously agree lebron was a top perimeter defender in the nba

Eye test, most people on here agree including myself

I’ll post synergy data too, but I don’t like synergy data

I think defensive synergy data sucks for the most part but some info you can get from it has value

These are the ranks in defense in these play types, higher is better

Isolation 85th percentile
Post ups 89th percentile
Pick and rolls BH 26.6th percentile
Spot ups 66th percentile
Hand offs 42nd percentile

Pretty solid, pretty impressive.

So that’s 2016 draymond

These are kawhis
Isolation 87th percentile
Post ups 16th percentile
Pick and rolls BH 62nd percentile
Spot ups 96th percentile
Hand offs 70th percentile

These are lebrons
Isolation 82nd percentile
Post ups 95th percentile
Pick and rolls BH 76th percentile
Spot ups 85th percentile
Hand offs 67th percentile

Lebron comes out the best pretty easily out of the three


Obviously draymond is a way better defender than these two are, but another data point showing lebrons elite on defense

I don’t like defensive synergy data btw, but I know some people do

Quite literally the ONLY thing that shows lebron as not top tier is tracking data which has known problems and directly contradicts synergy data at times (and synergy has better tracking iirc). And even that has him tied with Tatum And his 2015 self I think.




When we think of legitimate ways to objectively evaluate defense statistically. lebron ranks out elite in EVERY SINGLE ONE. The fact that the media have him a few spots lower than he should be when they also have white side as a top 5 defensive center does not override that lol.

Like honestly the evidence is overwhelming that lebron was a top tier defender.

Defense is hard to track, even when it comes to a top tier defensive type when you look at the data for his defense you usually get a few that disagree and you have to know how to get a complete picture by understanding what the data says and the value of each datapoint

With lebron it’s nearly completely unanimous.

I don’t agree to the extent the data does with how good he was but if we are talking about what the data shows, that’s what the data shows

If you aren’t gonna address this when evaluating lebrons defense there’s literally no point lol

[Djoker]

How do I explain Lebron's better looking defensive metrics in 2020? Simple. He was playing alongside really good defensive talent including Davis, Howard, Kuzma, KCP, Caruso, Rondo... And then of course comes Lebron's low defensive usage where he hides on weak offensive players and other guys on his team take the tough matchups. This is a point that you didn't address either. Apart from Butler in the Finals where he was largely ineffective Lebron rarely took on any tough assignments on defense to begin with.

Your point about Lebron anchoring better offenses than Bird again comes back to the inflated era. Lebron's best playoff offenses all came from 2016 to present when he was in his 30's? Coincidence? I think not. League average pace and TS% has skyrocketed the last 5 years.



My view on Bird is based on what I've seen of him and the data. There was a poster named PHILA who was active here and on Insidehoops who created a Shot Chart of peak Larry Bird from 1984-1986. For some reason I found his other shot charts but his Bird one doesn't pop on a quick Google search. Anyways I remember he shot 52% from midrange and like 41% from 3pt range. And mind you Bird was taking mostly bailout 3's late in the shot clock and barely took them during games. I think a guy who's one of GOAT pure shooters maybe the closest thing to Curry as well as 6'9'' tall would put up insane scoring numbers. Especially in this offensive era...

We can agree to disagree. You bring up good points but I don't see it the same way.

[MyUniBroDavis]

How do I explain Lebron's better looking defensive metrics in 2020? Simple. He was playing alongside really good defensive talent including Davis, Howard, Kuzma, KCP, Caruso, Rondo... And then of course comes Lebron's low defensive usage where he hides on weak offensive players and other guys on his team take the tough matchups. This is a point that you didn't address either. Apart from Butler in the Finals where he was largely ineffective Lebron rarely took on any tough assignments on defense to begin with.

But I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’m saying

For nearly all the metrics I’ve cited, the biggest thing they do is adjust for that exact effect you’re saying (playing with good defensive talent).

I don’t personally think they do a perfect job, but my concerns are that they underrate defenders on good defensive teams.

The fact that lebrons defense is still super elite by those metrics (and keep in mind it’s better than everyone’s stats there except for Playoff AD) just makes it more impressive

Lebron shines as a help rotation defender to break up action, but he did guard Murray near the end of the series and butler, both point of attack points. It wouldn’t make sense for him to guard lillard and they used a scheme to guard hardens team that they couldn’t counter

Should be noted he also played as a small ball center defensively at times against the rockets and nuggets in a way, since they plopped AD as a roamer

People like to say help defenders are inherently more valuable than point of attack defenders. I don’t really agree, I think they are different qualities

But lebrons biggest strength is his defensive iq and being able to break up opposing plays because he knows them perfectly beforehand (as said by players who play against him).

Your point about Lebron anchoring better offenses than Bird again comes back to the inflated era. Lebron's best playoff offenses all came from 2016 to present when he was in his 30's? Coincidence? I think not. League average pace and TS% has skyrocketed the last 5 years.

We need to discuss why this trend occurs. Pace is kind of irrelevant here but the lakers pace was the same as the 84 bird pace

I mentioned this earlier too

A majority of the effect can be attributed to 2 things.

1. Relatively higher effeciency of limited role players because they get put in high effeciency limited roles. The highest effeciency players in the 70-90s were the top scorers, today it’s the Duncan robinsons and Mitchell robinsons of the world
2. Low effeciency chuckers being fizzled out. Because stats are more tracked there are less SUPER LOW effeciency volume scorers


Now it is easier to score today but the effect is overemphasized using ts%

More importantly, lebrons playoff offenses were better relative to the league than birds, so this doesn’t fit

My view on Bird is based on what I've seen of him and the data. There was a poster named PHILA who was active here and on Insidehoops who created a Shot Chart of peak Larry Bird from 1984-1986. For some reason I found his other shot charts but his Bird one doesn't pop on a quick Google search. Anyways I remember he shot 52% from midrange and like 41% from 3pt range. And mind you Bird was taking mostly bailout 3's late in the shot clock and barely took them during games. I think a guy who's one of GOAT pure shooters maybe the closest thing to Curry as well as 6'9'' tall would put up insane scoring numbers. Especially in this offensive era...
We can agree to disagree. You bring up good points but I don't see it the same way.

Bird was great from the midrange I’m not going to deny that.

From three though, his shot quality was absolutely not more difficult than guys today. The three point line wasn’t as heavily guarded back then. Most of his threes were pretty open or set shots, where the defense was sagging a bit and he got all the time in the world to measure up

Watch on YouTube

;t=132s

Compare this to a Durant highlight film

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Keep in mind the first video is up to 2015, so pre three point revolution

The difference in difficulty is kind of absurd lol

To call him a 6ft9 curry because of his three point shot is just kind of ridiculous. Durant is infinitely more well suited in that regard and he isn’t similar at all, because currys speciality is his ability to get off threes in any space among other things

Even if the Durant is more likely to have better threes record, both players are gonna be taking better threes than they do on average here since it’s a highlight reel, and I can’t say bird is taking hard threes here at all

I don’t doubt he’d be a good three point shooter but he’s not gonna be doing stepbacks and pull-ups from 30 and coming off of screens full speed and hitting fading threes, which is what makes curry unique from three. He’d be more of a spot up guy that occasionally does it off the triple threat or off of simple dribbles at best

I don’t think it’s fair to agree to disagree if you aren’t addressing what I’m saying, and saying things that I’ve mentioned in posts making it seem like you’re not reading them no offense lol

[freethedevil]

How do I explain Lebron's better looking defensive metrics in 2020? Simple. He was playing alongside really good defensive talent including Davis, Howard, Kuzma, KCP, Caruso, Rondo... And then of course comes Lebron's low defensive usage where he hides on weak offensive players and other guys on his team take the tough matchups. This is a point that you didn't address either. Apart from Butler in the Finals where he was largely ineffective Lebron rarely took on any tough assignments on defense to begin with.

But I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’m saying

For nearly all the metrics I’ve cited, the biggest thing they do is adjust for that exact effect you’re saying (playing with good defensive talent).

I don’t personally think they do a perfect job, but my concerns are that they underrate defenders on good defensive teams.

The fact that lebrons defense is still super elite by those metrics (and keep in mind it’s better than everyone’s stats there except for Playoff AD) just makes it more impressive

Lebron shines as a help rotation defender to break up action, but he did guard Murray near the end of the series and butler, both point of attack points. It wouldn’t make sense for him to guard lillard and they used a scheme to guard hardens team that they couldn’t counter

Should be noted he also played as a small ball center defensively at times against the rockets and nuggets in a way, since they plopped AD as a roamer

People like to say help defenders are inherently more valuable than point of attack defenders. I don’t really agree, I think they are different qualities

But lebrons biggest strength is his defensive iq and being able to break up opposing plays because he knows them perfectly beforehand (as said by players who play against him).

Your point about Lebron anchoring better offenses than Bird again comes back to the inflated era. Lebron's best playoff offenses all came from 2016 to present when he was in his 30's? Coincidence? I think not. League average pace and TS% has skyrocketed the last 5 years.

We need to discuss why this trend occurs. Pace is kind of irrelevant here but the lakers pace was the same as the 84 bird pace

I mentioned this earlier too

A majority of the effect can be attributed to 2 things.

1. Relatively higher effeciency of limited role players because they get put in high effeciency limited roles. The highest effeciency players in the 70-90s were the top scorers, today it’s the Duncan robinsons and Mitchell robinsons of the world
2. Low effeciency chuckers being fizzled out. Because stats are more tracked there are less SUPER LOW effeciency volume scorers


Now it is easier to score today but the effect is overemphasized using ts%

More importantly, lebrons playoff offenses were better relative to the league than birds, so this doesn’t fit

My view on Bird is based on what I've seen of him and the data. There was a poster named PHILA who was active here and on Insidehoops who created a Shot Chart of peak Larry Bird from 1984-1986. For some reason I found his other shot charts but his Bird one doesn't pop on a quick Google search. Anyways I remember he shot 52% from midrange and like 41% from 3pt range. And mind you Bird was taking mostly bailout 3's late in the shot clock and barely took them during games. I think a guy who's one of GOAT pure shooters maybe the closest thing to Curry as well as 6'9'' tall would put up insane scoring numbers. Especially in this offensive era...
We can agree to disagree. You bring up good points but I don't see it the same way.

Bird was great from the midrange I’m not going to deny that.

From three though, his shot quality was absolutely not more difficult than guys today. The three point line wasn’t as heavily guarded back then. Most of his threes were pretty open or set shots, where the defense was sagging a bit and he got all the time in the world to measure up

Watch on YouTube

;t=132s

Compare this to a Durant highlight film

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Keep in mind the first video is up to 2015, so pre three point revolution

The difference in difficulty is kind of absurd lol

To call him a 6ft9 curry because of his three point shot is just kind of ridiculous. Durant is infinitely more well suited in that regard and he isn’t similar at all, because currys speciality is his ability to get off threes in any space among other things

The curry comparisons are really wild. Curry was a vastly better shooter(duh) was far quicker, moves vastly quicker off the ball. Bird's strength is passing but despite creating way more off the ball than bird does, postseasons where he's injured still have curry assisting more of his team's shots than bird does in his best runs.

Bird's only real advantage "defense" obviously goes away here and his inside scoring goes poof. Long 2's probably become harder and even if he hits them at the same clip as we've seen with durant, thay is not paticularly hard to tkae away come playoff time. The idea that bird would be curry in the modern nba is silly, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. The fact that with a team and era perfectyl suited for him he was a worse postseaon performe than curry is pretty damning honestly.

Hitting cury for postseason resiliency and then looking the other way with bird is really something. And no "toughness" isn't going to save 90's defenses from getting ripped to shreds by someone taking 11 threes a game, sorry. Espeiclaly not if you can't even hedge. If bird could hack it, there's no reason curry couldn't.

[MyUniBroDavis]

How do I explain Lebron's better looking defensive metrics in 2020? Simple. He was playing alongside really good defensive talent including Davis, Howard, Kuzma, KCP, Caruso, Rondo... And then of course comes Lebron's low defensive usage where he hides on weak offensive players and other guys on his team take the tough matchups. This is a point that you didn't address either. Apart from Butler in the Finals where he was largely ineffective Lebron rarely took on any tough assignments on defense to begin with.

But I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’m saying

For nearly all the metrics I’ve cited, the biggest thing they do is adjust for that exact effect you’re saying (playing with good defensive talent).

I don’t personally think they do a perfect job, but my concerns are that they underrate defenders on good defensive teams.

The fact that lebrons defense is still super elite by those metrics (and keep in mind it’s better than everyone’s stats there except for Playoff AD) just makes it more impressive

Lebron shines as a help rotation defender to break up action, but he did guard Murray near the end of the series and butler, both point of attack points. It wouldn’t make sense for him to guard lillard and they used a scheme to guard hardens team that they couldn’t counter

Should be noted he also played as a small ball center defensively at times against the rockets and nuggets in a way, since they plopped AD as a roamer

People like to say help defenders are inherently more valuable than point of attack defenders. I don’t really agree, I think they are different qualities

But lebrons biggest strength is his defensive iq and being able to break up opposing plays because he knows them perfectly beforehand (as said by players who play against him).

Your point about Lebron anchoring better offenses than Bird again comes back to the inflated era. Lebron's best playoff offenses all came from 2016 to present when he was in his 30's? Coincidence? I think not. League average pace and TS% has skyrocketed the last 5 years.

We need to discuss why this trend occurs. Pace is kind of irrelevant here but the lakers pace was the same as the 84 bird pace

I mentioned this earlier too

A majority of the effect can be attributed to 2 things.

1. Relatively higher effeciency of limited role players because they get put in high effeciency limited roles. The highest effeciency players in the 70-90s were the top scorers, today it’s the Duncan robinsons and Mitchell robinsons of the world
2. Low effeciency chuckers being fizzled out. Because stats are more tracked there are less SUPER LOW effeciency volume scorers


Now it is easier to score today but the effect is overemphasized using ts%

More importantly, lebrons playoff offenses were better relative to the league than birds, so this doesn’t fit

My view on Bird is based on what I've seen of him and the data. There was a poster named PHILA who was active here and on Insidehoops who created a Shot Chart of peak Larry Bird from 1984-1986. For some reason I found his other shot charts but his Bird one doesn't pop on a quick Google search. Anyways I remember he shot 52% from midrange and like 41% from 3pt range. And mind you Bird was taking mostly bailout 3's late in the shot clock and barely took them during games. I think a guy who's one of GOAT pure shooters maybe the closest thing to Curry as well as 6'9'' tall would put up insane scoring numbers. Especially in this offensive era...
We can agree to disagree. You bring up good points but I don't see it the same way.

Bird was great from the midrange I’m not going to deny that.

From three though, his shot quality was absolutely not more difficult than guys today. The three point line wasn’t as heavily guarded back then. Most of his threes were pretty open or set shots, where the defense was sagging a bit and he got all the time in the world to measure up

Watch on YouTube

;t=132s

Compare this to a Durant highlight film

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Keep in mind the first video is up to 2015, so pre three point revolution

The difference in difficulty is kind of absurd lol

To call him a 6ft9 curry because of his three point shot is just kind of ridiculous. Durant is infinitely more well suited in that regard and he isn’t similar at all, because currys speciality is his ability to get off threes in any space among other things

The curry comparisons are really wild. Curry was a vastly better shooter(duh) was far quicker, moves vastly quicker off the ball. Bird's strength is passing but despite creating way more off the ball than bird does, postseasons where he's injured still have curry assisting more of his team's shots than bird does in his best runs.

Bird's only real advantage "defense" obviously goes away here and his inside scoring goes poof. Long 2's probably become harder and even if he hits them at the same clip as we've seen with durant, thay is not paticularly hard to tkae away come playoff time. The idea that bird would be curry in the modern nba is silly, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. The fact that with a team and era perfectyl suited for him he was a worse postseaon performe than curry is pretty damning honestly.

Hitting cury for postseason resiliency and then looking the other way with bird is really something. And no "toughness" isn't going to save 90's defenses from getting ripped to shreds by someone taking 11 threes a game, sorry. Espeiclaly not if you can't even hedge. If bird could hack it, there's no reason curry couldn't.

I don’t know if I agree with long twos being easy to take away, and I feel teams don’t try to take that away anyway, but agree for the most part

I don’t think he mentioned currys postseason stuff though right?

[MyUniBroDavis]

I do think that people overvalue impact stats in a way that they can make some absurd takes (laughs in Mike conley) that clearly arent true when you watch and understand the game, but I don’t think that Lebron being a high level perimeter defender is something that isn’t backed up by eye test either

[Djoker]

The curry comparisons are really wild. Curry was a vastly better shooter(duh) was far quicker, moves vastly quicker off the ball. Bird's strength is passing but despite creating way more off the ball than bird does, postseasons where he's injured still have curry assisting more of his team's shots than bird does in his best runs.

Bird's only real advantage "defense" obviously goes away here and his inside scoring goes poof. Long 2's probably become harder and even if he hits them at the same clip as we've seen with durant, thay is not paticularly hard to tkae away come playoff time. The idea that bird would be curry in the modern nba is silly, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. The fact that with a team and era perfectyl suited for him he was a worse postseaon performe than curry is pretty damning honestly.

Hitting cury for postseason resiliency and then looking the other way with bird is really something. And no "toughness" isn't going to save 90's defenses from getting ripped to shreds by someone taking 11 threes a game, sorry. Espeiclaly not if you can't even hedge. If bird could hack it, there's no reason curry couldn't.

Curry was a better shooter from 3pt range. Inside the arc Bird was better and besides, nobody is a vastly better shooter than Larry Bird. Before Curry popped up Bird was widely considered the GOAT shooter. The eras they are playing in are vastly different. Put Curry up against handchecking and physical defenses and I don't think he's the same force he is today. Heck being so injury prone he might have just broken down physically and become another Penny Hardaway. This era is tailor-made for him. Curry is much quicker with and without the ball but he's also a lot smaller, can't play in the post and Bird is much more intelligent than just about any player in history at exploiting the defense.

You are obviously one of those people who believes that today's players are better than those of prior eras. Lebron is better than Jordan, Curry is better than Bird... and that's fine but if you have such preconceived notions why debate in the first place? Most people on here will probably sound ignorant to you.

[Djoker]

@UniBroDavis

I'm not concerned that those stats underrate defenders on good teams. I'm concerned that they overrate defenders on good teams and underrate good defenders on bad teams. For instance in 2017-2018 season, Lebron one of the five lowest DRPM in the league ranked 508th. Was Lebron really one of the worst defenders in the league that year? What a stat is supposed to do isn't what it actually does in this case. It clearly doesn't correct for teammate quality very well.

Regarding Bird, nothing you said changes the fact that Bird rarely ever took 3's and often took them in bailout situations and still shot 40%+ from that distance. We also know he won back-to-back-to-back 3pt shootouts. To think that he wouldn't be a great 3pt shooter today is fooling yourself.

[MyUniBroDavis]

The curry comparisons are really wild. Curry was a vastly better shooter(duh) was far quicker, moves vastly quicker off the ball. Bird's strength is passing but despite creating way more off the ball than bird does, postseasons where he's injured still have curry assisting more of his team's shots than bird does in his best runs.

Bird's only real advantage "defense" obviously goes away here and his inside scoring goes poof. Long 2's probably become harder and even if he hits them at the same clip as we've seen with durant, thay is not paticularly hard to tkae away come playoff time. The idea that bird would be curry in the modern nba is silly, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. The fact that with a team and era perfectyl suited for him he was a worse postseaon performe than curry is pretty damning honestly.

Hitting cury for postseason resiliency and then looking the other way with bird is really something. And no "toughness" isn't going to save 90's defenses from getting ripped to shreds by someone taking 11 threes a game, sorry. Espeiclaly not if you can't even hedge. If bird could hack it, there's no reason curry couldn't.

Curry was a better shooter from 3pt range. Inside the arc Bird was better and besides, nobody is a vastly better shooter than Larry Bird. Before Curry popped up Bird was widely considered the GOAT shooter. The eras they are playing in are vastly different. Put Curry up against handchecking and physical defenses and I don't think he's the same force he is today. Heck being so injury prone he might have just broken down physically and become another Penny Hardaway. This era is tailor-made for him. Curry is much quicker with and without the ball but he's also a lot smaller, can't play in the post and Bird is much more intelligent than just about any player in history at exploiting the defense.

You are obviously one of those people who believes that today's players are better than those of prior eras. Lebron is better than Jordan, Curry is better than Bird... and that's fine but if you have such preconceived notions why debate in the first place? Most people on here will probably sound ignorant to you.[/quote]

So in the sample PHILA showed, I’m assuming he’s using either 87 or 88, even though it can’t be found right now (you might be mistaking it for Jordan?) which were the only years it’s even remotely possible for him to shoot above 50% from midrange unless he was the worst finisher in the nba

Curry in his “good year in the arc” shot 58% in the midrange. This year he’s shooting 55%

While these are both good years for him in the midrange, it’s pretty certain those were good years for bird in the midrange since that’s literally higher than his averages inside the arc

If the only thing bird is better at is shooting postfades then it’s a pretty ridiculous argument honestly

Durant isn’t a better shooter than curry, yet his percentage in the midrange is 49% in the last 7 years, which is 100% better than any of birds considering his average inside the arc was 50% throughout his prime

I have to stress this

Let’s say 10 is a DPOY, 8 is an elite defender, 0 is a neutral, -10 is the worst defender in the nba

You said “show me the stats and I might be convinced”

I showed you stats that uniformly put him at an 9-10. It’s not as if I cherry picked, is literally EVERY valuable defensive stat we have available. Even ones that weren’t that valuable I included. Even the bad ones that I didn’t include have him as elite

I said, well personally based off my eye test maybe that’s a bit of an exerration, I have him at a 7 or an 8


And you were like “no he’s a 2”

You get why that doesn’t make sense?

Like when we compare Lebron to an elite top 3 perimeter defender like Kawhi, Out of the let’s say

The 10-13 stats we have to measure defense

Lebron comes out better in like 10/13 of them, and the three he comes out worse in are the worst ones! One of them doesn’t even attempt to measure defense, and what it attempts to measure a better stat says lebrons better!



And your argument essentially comes down to, random media heads that include Ramona shelbourne and skip bay less and max kellerman and analysts of that quality rank him as a top 10 perimeter defender, and you feel it doesn’t seem right

The entire argument for bird is he is a better shooter at one specific situation that curry literally physically cannot do and has no reason to do

In fact, going by that logic durants must be a better shooter than bird, since the main difference is durants clearly a more versatile shooter off the dribble compared to bird, and in general throughout their careers was more efficient in the midrange and the three, and also at their peaks

Birds a great shooter but putting him in currys league is kind of absurd to be honest.

Also curry gets beat tf up off ball lol

I’m not arguing curry over bird but as shooters curry is quite literally in his own tier. Birds probably not a better shooter than durant


It’s not as if it’s just the impact metrics that say he’s been great defensively. Bball index talent grades have him elite on defense

I think we need to make this clear:

I’m ARGUING that the stats overrate him, despite there being no evidence for it. Yes, if you look at single instances names are gonna stand out, but when so many of them are in agreement that he’s a top 5 type defender regardless of position, and essentially ALL in agreement he’s elite...

I think it’s important to say this and I’m not trying to be mean but I feel you’re just trying to deny it at this point lol

Let’s say a 10 is dpoy, 8 is elite, 0 is a neutral

Like, you told me to post stats showing he was elite

I posted almost EVERY stat that shows a players defensive impact, even ones I didn’t like, and nearly all of them put him at an 9

I think that’s maybe a bit too high because of my eye test, so I have him at a 7 or 8

And you’re saying “that’s cool but I think he’s a slight positive so a 2”

You understand why that’s ridiculous?

Your only evidence is that media heads that include like ramona shelbourne, who didn’t even know draymond was a point forward, have him as a top ten ish perimeter defender, and your eye test, which to be perfectly honest was clearly wrong in at least 2 ways, butler constantly beating him without screens (I tracked it, and that’s just blatantly not true), and him never taking tough matchups

Lebron while elite in iso defense by every metric we have is at his best as a positional help defender, yet we saw him in two series, the only two where it was needed, take on a role of a point of attack defender near the end and succeeded

When we look at all stats to evaluate defense, he comes out better than Kawhi in like 9/13 of them, Kawhi being probably the other candidate for best perimeter defender in the league with Simmons

It’s like, you told me to post stats,I posted nearly ALL the ones I can think of that can evaluate defense, even ones I don’t like, like defensive synergy stats.

Not only that, but in general the higher quality the stat, the BETTER lebron looks

Like, even more than that, a lot of the statements you’ve made of why bron shouldn’t be elite are demonstratably false or were a function of a role that people often consider the most effective defensive role for a non big, although I don’t agree and I think roles are situational and all are needed

Like the thing is I feel there’s just not possible way to convince you because the evidence is so overwhelming it’s ridiculous as this point. Like literally God could come down and say it and I feel it still wouldn’t be enough

Like at this point I feel like I would literally need to do a film and play by play breakdown on how Lebron terrorized opponent schemes and broke opponent plays with his super elite positioning and rotations and how this more than made up for one or two defensive lapses that were often a result of a teammate miscommunication and him trying (and failing for obvious reasons) to cover for those mistakes, but that’s a ridiculous ask

Like it’s different if I’m posting a ridiculous hot take based off unreliable small samples of data and taking it completely at face value, I value film and play analysis more than impact metrics, but lebron still looks fantastic in that regard

Like you have to ask yourself are you thinking “Lebron isn’t a good defender” or “I don’t want lebron to be a good defender”

That’s the issue here. If you replaced lebrons name with anyone else, and someone said “I watched film and I don’t think Jordan was good on D” and somehow these stats exist back then and they all said he was elite, and a bunch of people are saying he’s elite, a few of them breaking down what happened in certain series you watched and showing you that some of your takeaways when watching the series (like butler beating him consistently off the dribble with no screens, not switching on to the POA) are either demonstratably false or involve a misunderstanding of the scheme situation and adjustments, and most the people who say this watch and discuss basketball serious, and his entire argument was essentially him continuing to say “hmmm idk” and mentioning all defensive team selections, which he got votes for, but includes the media who for the most part only watch their own team + marquee matchups in the first place

You get what that sounds completely ridiculous right?

You originally said something along the lines of “show me some stats and I might be convinced, i didn’t believe he did great on D when I watched”

Like we are getting to the point where there is literally nothing else I can show you because we are LITERALLY running out of things we can do to evaluate defense

Like it’s not even that there isn’t anything else that shows he’s elite, we are nearly at a point where WE HAVE RUN OUT OF THINGS THAT MEASURE DEFENSE!!!

Like, come on lol. What else can I show you at this point. I’m not gonna break down film on how His defense was elite in the playoffs,I’d say a top 10 perimeter defender in the nba esp factoring in communication and him quarterbacking the D, and went up top 1-5 range perimeter D in the playoffs (and closer to 1 probably).

There’s probably a film breakdown somewhere online where they say he’s either all defensive level or near all defense level (which keep in mind, since he’s a forward, and AD/Giannis/Bam/Turner are all forwards, is impressive), and how he stepped up defensively in the playoffs.

But like, there’s literally NOTHING ELSE I can show you at this point, like if you’re going to agree to disagree now without stating an argument other than “i just feel this way” then you’re just telling me you don’t wanna listen and I’ve wasted my time lol

Sorry if this sounds aggressive I got into a argument with someone before this lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

@UniBroDavis

I'm not concerned that those stats underrate defenders on good teams. I'm concerned that they overrate defenders on good teams and underrate good defenders on bad teams. For instance in 2017-2018 season, Lebron one of the five lowest DRPM in the league ranked 508th. Was Lebron really one of the worst defenders in the league that year? What a stat is supposed to do isn't what it actually does in this case. It clearly doesn't correct for teammate quality very well.

Regarding Bird, nothing you said changes the fact that Bird rarely ever took 3's and often took them in bailout situations and still shot 40%+ from that distance. We also know he won back-to-back-to-back 3pt shootouts. To think that he wouldn't be a great 3pt shooter today is fooling yourself.

No, the concern they underrate GOOD defenders on GOOD teams and OVERRATE BAD ones, at least from what I know.

Lebron was horrible on defense in 2018, but DRPM is probably the worst one of the ones I listed since they changed their thing and made it kind of broken.

Lebrons role in the defense was to be kind of the general and break up plays with positioning. He was versatile defensively and often played as a secondary or even primary rim protector in some lineups, or would shift to a point of attack defender

We don’t have evidence they were bailouts, we do have some evidence they were significantly easier than the threes superstar shooters take today

It’s not strong evidence but it’s the only evidence we have

Citing the three point contest is like me saying Aaron is the best in game dunker in nba history

I’m not saying he wouldn’t be a good shooter but calling him a 6ft9 curry is a ridiculous overstatement, his threes weren’t better than durants in terms of difficulty, and keep in mind I found a career highlight reel from three for bird, the only one available, and I found one from 2015 for Durant, so durants now would look a lot better

[theonlyclutch]

The same year where Bird shot 35% FG in the Pistons series and was a key factor in them losing as a higher seed? At this point Lebron is just so, so much better as a reliable first option in the playoffs that it is clearly him.

[euroleague]

I did playoff averages, not regular season averages. I just added up team PPG in my head, and it's much higher for LA. Going off of regular season pace numbers, then comparing playoff performances, is obviously wrong - your argument is flawed.

No, your math is flawed lmfao.

How tf would the lakers score 136 points a game, when they NEVER scored that many points in a single game?

if you want me to use the pace argument Ill use it even though its idiotic.

the lakers pace was at 96.4 in the playoffs, the celtics was at 97.7

the lakers averaged 112.3 points per game in the playoffs, the celtics 110.9, the lakers were just more effective

in terms of rewarding LBJ by TS% is a terrible metric - Bird played in an era with far more post-play, and far less shooting to space the floor. Bird was a floor spacer, and sacrificed his TS% to open up the paint and be an extremely potent threat from long distance... BEFORE THE THREE POINT SHOT. His TS% helped his team immensely more than LBJ driving to the hoop and going for the layup, hoping to get double teamed so he can toss it out.

I literally went into depth about how to use rTS accross eras a bit more accurately. Lebron still comes out substantially better if you adjust for that.

Theres obviously an argument for Birds off ball scoring impact but trying to say the drive and kick, which is basically the most effective form of iso offense ever, is somehow not effective makes no sense.

This common flaw in using stats without context to measure offense, than refusing to use stats to measure defense, always makes me laugh... Bird's defense was elite from the PF position, and he was a great help defender. LBJ was a very solid perimeter defender at SF, but wasn't all-defensive level.

On that defensive note, per minute isn't valid, as we've seen LBJ absolutely die defensively when he plays high minutes. His offensive efficiency doens't change that much, but he becomes an all-time bad level defender.

I mean thats cool and all but this literally didnt pan out in the playoffs since the high minute games coincided with his good defensive games lol. more than that its more so he had one bad defensive year in 2018 where his load was pretty absurd.

To be perfectly honest you kind of just made a claim thats only substantiated by all defensive votes, when we know thats hardly the best way to measure defense. Sure its fair to say that Bird was underrated on defense but pretty much all advanced metrics point to Lebrons defense being in the "best perimeter defender" category with Simmons iirc.

Iggy is very old and could barely play the regular season, crowder is ok, Butler has had an injured elbow and was exhausted from carrying too high of a load with Dragic's injury. All the other teams had basically nobody. furthermore, Nurkic was quite obviously injured if you were watching.

PS: Although it's on your next post, Ironically, you're the one trying to punish Bird for winning early and getting taken out, by discussing his numbers in blowouts as being far better than LBJ's...

His injured elbow really hurt his defense lol come on dude. Iggys pretty much always been elite at perimeter D regardless, Crowder is a good three and D wing. This is again, the team he played BEST against too lol.

On punishing Birds for winning early:

No, Bird just played more minutes in blowout wins, so basically statpadding lmao.

Lebron played 31.1 minutes in blowout wins. Bird played 40 minutes per game in blowout wins.

Lebron played better in close games and played LESS in big wins. the lakers also had more blowout wins

On a sidenote, in terms of watching the games, beyond the fact that you mentioned Bird as a good help defender when Lebron in teh playoffs was so elite at it that they essentially made him the primary rim protector at times in certain games vs teh rockets and the nuggets as AD became more of a free roamer and dwight was either on the bench or glued to jokic, its pretty clear the nurkic struggeld because they blitzed or ran catch hedges on pick and rolls and nurkic wasnt making good passing reads in teh short roll.

If we are talking about the playoffs theres more data suggesting Lebron was a top 3 defender regardless of position than simply a solid one. I wouldnt make that argument but he was pretty clearly the best perimeter defender in the playoffs, I dont think anyone would disagree with that that actually watched lol

1. Your post about rTS was so oversimplified, Un contextual, and wrong, it was laughable.

2. Insinuating I didn’t watch, cool argument. Very convincing.

3. Dwight and AD were the key to the defense.

4. Curry, Reggie, KLove, Peja Stojakovic... all the best offensive ratings of all time are shooters. Not drive and dish...

It’s actually the shooters opening up the floor that’s valuable, as any player can drive and make a layup. Having a PF elite shooting point forward is an obvious advantage over a SF not elite shooting point forward

[therealbig3]

2020 LeBron...we can split hairs about their offense, but there's a clear advantage for LeBron defensively.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I did playoff averages, not regular season averages. I just added up team PPG in my head, and it's much higher for LA. Going off of regular season pace numbers, then comparing playoff performances, is obviously wrong - your argument is flawed.

No, your math is flawed lmfao.

How tf would the lakers score 136 points a game, when they NEVER scored that many points in a single game?

if you want me to use the pace argument Ill use it even though its idiotic.

the lakers pace was at 96.4 in the playoffs, the celtics was at 97.7

the lakers averaged 112.3 points per game in the playoffs, the celtics 110.9, the lakers were just more effective

in terms of rewarding LBJ by TS% is a terrible metric - Bird played in an era with far more post-play, and far less shooting to space the floor. Bird was a floor spacer, and sacrificed his TS% to open up the paint and be an extremely potent threat from long distance... BEFORE THE THREE POINT SHOT. His TS% helped his team immensely more than LBJ driving to the hoop and going for the layup, hoping to get double teamed so he can toss it out.

I literally went into depth about how to use rTS accross eras a bit more accurately. Lebron still comes out substantially better if you adjust for that.

Theres obviously an argument for Birds off ball scoring impact but trying to say the drive and kick, which is basically the most effective form of iso offense ever, is somehow not effective makes no sense.

This common flaw in using stats without context to measure offense, than refusing to use stats to measure defense, always makes me laugh... Bird's defense was elite from the PF position, and he was a great help defender. LBJ was a very solid perimeter defender at SF, but wasn't all-defensive level.

On that defensive note, per minute isn't valid, as we've seen LBJ absolutely die defensively when he plays high minutes. His offensive efficiency doens't change that much, but he becomes an all-time bad level defender.

I mean thats cool and all but this literally didnt pan out in the playoffs since the high minute games coincided with his good defensive games lol. more than that its more so he had one bad defensive year in 2018 where his load was pretty absurd.

To be perfectly honest you kind of just made a claim thats only substantiated by all defensive votes, when we know thats hardly the best way to measure defense. Sure its fair to say that Bird was underrated on defense but pretty much all advanced metrics point to Lebrons defense being in the "best perimeter defender" category with Simmons iirc.

Iggy is very old and could barely play the regular season, crowder is ok, Butler has had an injured elbow and was exhausted from carrying too high of a load with Dragic's injury. All the other teams had basically nobody. furthermore, Nurkic was quite obviously injured if you were watching.

PS: Although it's on your next post, Ironically, you're the one trying to punish Bird for winning early and getting taken out, by discussing his numbers in blowouts as being far better than LBJ's...

His injured elbow really hurt his defense lol come on dude. Iggys pretty much always been elite at perimeter D regardless, Crowder is a good three and D wing. This is again, the team he played BEST against too lol.

On punishing Birds for winning early:

No, Bird just played more minutes in blowout wins, so basically statpadding lmao.

Lebron played 31.1 minutes in blowout wins. Bird played 40 minutes per game in blowout wins.

Lebron played better in close games and played LESS in big wins. the lakers also had more blowout wins

On a sidenote, in terms of watching the games, beyond the fact that you mentioned Bird as a good help defender when Lebron in teh playoffs was so elite at it that they essentially made him the primary rim protector at times in certain games vs teh rockets and the nuggets as AD became more of a free roamer and dwight was either on the bench or glued to jokic, its pretty clear the nurkic struggeld because they blitzed or ran catch hedges on pick and rolls and nurkic wasnt making good passing reads in teh short roll.

If we are talking about the playoffs theres more data suggesting Lebron was a top 3 defender regardless of position than simply a solid one. I wouldnt make that argument but he was pretty clearly the best perimeter defender in the playoffs, I dont think anyone would disagree with that that actually watched lol

1. Your post about rTS was so oversimplified, Un contextual, and wrong, it was laughable.

2. Insinuating I didn’t watch, cool argument. Very convincing.

3. Dwight and AD were the key to the defense.

4. Curry, Reggie, KLove, Peja Stojakovic... all the best offensive ratings of all time are shooters. Not drive and dish...

It’s actually the shooters opening up the floor that’s valuable, as any player can drive and make a layup. Having a PF elite shooting point forward is an obvious advantage over a SF not elite shooting point forward

I feel djoker at least tries to respond respectfully but you just sound kind of Butthurt lol.

1. Apparently you can’t read since my point on RTS is literally that it’s too simplified to compare it flat across eras since it’s a statement in league average

Since the years we are concerned about are 1984 vs 2020, let’s look at the high effeciency high volume scorers, because that’s what we are concerned about

My hypothesis comparing those two years is that the highest effeciency highest volume scorers won’t have a huge difference in efficiency

So let’s look at the 10 highest TS% for players who scored more than 20 a game

2020
KAT 64.2%
Lillard 62.7%
Harden 62.6%
Middleton 61.9%
Booker 61.8%
Giannis 61.3%
Bogdanovic 60.3%
Derozen 60.3%
Kyrie 59.5%
Trae 59.5%


Average 61.4%

1984
Dantley 65.2%
Ruland 63.3%
Kind 61.9%
Kiki 61.9%
Kareem 60.8%
Toney 59.7%
Blackman 59.6%
Moncrief 59.1%
Paxson 57.3%
Aguirre 57.2%

Average 60.6%

What we see here is basically exactly what I said.

There’s not that big of a gap in high effeciency high volume scorers TS%, the league average gaps are somewhat caused by that but there are other prominent effects when you use RTS that aren’t accounted for, such as role players in limited roles being the most efficient today vs among the least efficient in the 80s

Looking at the dataset itself it looks like it’s easier to be a moderately efficient high volume scorer, but not a Uber high effeciency high volume scorer. The difference at the top is minimal, after a point there’s a bit of a gap which matches what I said

To say my point in TS is oversimplified and laughable when it literally is meant to put it in perspective and makes sense conceptually shows you either can’t comprehend it or don’t want to respond to it because you can’t, and I think we both know it’s the latter.
In fact if you type a response, let me tell you what you’re planning on doing. You’re going to go down the list and see there is a difference after you go down a bit, and use that as proof even though I literally mention that in the previous paragraph.

2. Insinuating I didn’t watch, cool argument. Very convincing.

Insinuating you didn’t watch = me explaining what happened in the games and the lakers different gameplans. Yes. That makes sense.

You’re literally just salty you can’t make a coherent response lol

Although the fact that you said the lakers scored 136 a game when they didn’t break that mark once kind of shows if you watched or not lmfao

AD and Dwight were key to the defense

AD, yes. Dwight, vs the nuggets yes. How much did he play outside of that?

Also, because the lakers had high level defenders them being a top tier defensive team is fake ok got it

4. Curry, Reggie, KLove, Peja Stojakovic... all the best offensive ratings of all time are shooters. Not drive and dish
It’s actually the shooters opening up the floor that’s valuable, as any player can drive and make a layup. Having a PF elite shooting point forward is an obvious advantage over a SF not elite shooting point forward

This is just getting idiotic

Offensive rtg is a measurement of the amount of points a player produces per 100 possessions. It has nothing to do with how efficient an offense is.

There is obviously more than one way to have
A hyper efficient offense. Drive and kick and pick and roll centric offenses are two proven ones

On part 2, this is the second most idiotic statement I’ve seen on this forum but the warriors one sounds better so you don’t get sigged.

First of all, you’ve never picked up a ball in your life lmfao

You are saying that in a team of an ATG driver and 4 shooters

It’s easier to find the shooter.

This is just such an idiotic statement I don’t even feel like I should respond to it seriously lol. Yes, everyone can be elite in drive and kick situations which is why Giannis is actually less valuable than Kelly olynk lmfao.

I remember you now lol. You and I both know you aren’t going into this with the intention to have a discussion, you have a weird seething hatred for a dude that doesn’t know you exist for no reason and will either continue to make embarrassing low effort arguments to try to deny reality, or stop replying because you know the hole is just getting deeper and deeper. It’s really weird and kind of embarrassing lol

You don’t know what you’re talking about lol, and got salty because you couldn’t find a good response

[MyUniBroDavis]

@UniBroDavis

I'm not concerned that those stats underrate defenders on good teams. I'm concerned that they overrate defenders on good teams and underrate good defenders on bad teams. For instance in 2017-2018 season, Lebron one of the five lowest DRPM in the league ranked 508th. Was Lebron really one of the worst defenders in the league that year? What a stat is supposed to do isn't what it actually does in this case. It clearly doesn't correct for teammate quality very well.

Regarding Bird, nothing you said changes the fact that Bird rarely ever took 3's and often took them in bailout situations and still shot 40%+ from that distance. We also know he won back-to-back-to-back 3pt shootouts. To think that he wouldn't be a great 3pt shooter today is fooling yourself.

So in the sample PHILA showed, I’m assuming he’s using either 87 or 88, even though it can’t be found right now (you might be mistaking it for Jordan?) which were the only years it’s even remotely possible for him to shoot above 50% from midrange unless he was the worst finisher in the nba

Curry in his “good year in the arc” shot 58% in the midrange. This year he’s shooting 55%

While these are both good years for him in the midrange, it’s pretty certain those were good years for bird in the midrange since that’s literally higher than his averages inside the arc

If the only thing bird is better at is shooting postfades then it’s a pretty ridiculous argument honestly

Durant isn’t a better shooter than curry, yet his percentage in the midrange is 49% in the last 7 years, which is 100% better than any of birds considering his average inside the arc was 50% throughout his prime

I have to stress this

Let’s say 10 is a DPOY, 8 is an elite defender, 0 is a neutral, -10 is the worst defender in the nba

You said “show me the stats and I might be convinced”

I showed you stats that uniformly put him at an 9-10. It’s not as if I cherry picked, is literally EVERY valuable defensive stat we have available. Even ones that weren’t that valuable I included. Even the bad ones that I didn’t include have him as elite

I said, well personally based off my eye test maybe that’s a bit of an exerration, I have him at a 7 or an 8


And you were like “no he’s a 2”

You get why that doesn’t make sense?

Like when we compare Lebron to an elite top 3 perimeter defender like Kawhi, Out of the let’s say

The 10-13 stats we have to measure defense

Lebron comes out better in like 10/13 of them, and the three he comes out worse in are the worst ones! One of them doesn’t even attempt to measure defense, and what it attempts to measure a better stat says lebrons better!



And your argument essentially comes down to, random media heads that include Ramona shelbourne and skip bay less and max kellerman and analysts of that quality rank him as a top 10 perimeter defender, and you feel it doesn’t seem right

The entire argument for bird is he is a better shooter at one specific situation that curry literally physically cannot do and has no reason to do

In fact, going by that logic durants must be a better shooter than bird, since the main difference is durants clearly a more versatile shooter off the dribble compared to bird, and in general throughout their careers was more efficient in the midrange and the three, and also at their peaks

Birds a great shooter but putting him in currys league is kind of absurd to be honest.

Also curry gets beat tf up off ball lol

I’m not arguing curry over bird but as shooters curry is quite literally in his own tier. Birds probably not a better shooter than durant


It’s not as if it’s just the impact metrics that say he’s been great defensively. Bball index talent grades have him elite on defense

I think we need to make this clear:

I’m ARGUING that the stats overrate him, despite there being no evidence for it. Yes, if you look at single instances names are gonna stand out, but when so many of them are in agreement that he’s a top 5 type defender regardless of position, and essentially ALL in agreement he’s elite...

I think it’s important to say this and I’m not trying to be mean but I feel you’re just trying to deny it at this point lol

Let’s say a 10 is dpoy, 8 is elite, 0 is a neutral

Like, you told me to post stats showing he was elite

I posted almost EVERY stat that shows a players defensive impact, even ones I didn’t like, and nearly all of them put him at an 9

I think that’s maybe a bit too high because of my eye test, so I have him at a 7 or 8

And you’re saying “that’s cool but I think he’s a slight positive so a 2”

You understand why that’s ridiculous?

Your only evidence is that media heads that include like ramona shelbourne, who didn’t even know draymond was a point forward, have him as a top ten ish perimeter defender, and your eye test, which to be perfectly honest was clearly wrong in at least 2 ways, butler constantly beating him without screens (I tracked it, and that’s just blatantly not true), and him never taking tough matchups

Lebron while elite in iso defense by every metric we have is at his best as a positional help defender, yet we saw him in two series, the only two where it was needed, take on a role of a point of attack defender near the end and succeeded

When we look at all stats to evaluate defense, he comes out better than Kawhi in like 9/13 of them, Kawhi being probably the other candidate for best perimeter defender in the league with Simmons

It’s like, you told me to post stats,I posted nearly ALL the ones I can think of that can evaluate defense, even ones I don’t like, like defensive synergy stats.

Not only that, but in general the higher quality the stat, the BETTER lebron looks

Like, even more than that, a lot of the statements you’ve made of why bron shouldn’t be elite are demonstratably false or were a function of a role that people often consider the most effective defensive role for a non big, although I don’t agree and I think roles are situational and all are needed

Like the thing is I feel there’s just not possible way to convince you because the evidence is so overwhelming it’s ridiculous as this point. Like literally God could come down and say it and I feel it still wouldn’t be enough

Like at this point I feel like I would literally need to do a film and play by play breakdown on how Lebron terrorized opponent schemes and broke opponent plays with his super elite positioning and rotations and how this more than made up for one or two defensive lapses that were often a result of a teammate miscommunication and him trying (and failing for obvious reasons) to cover for those mistakes, but that’s a ridiculous ask

Like it’s different if I’m posting a ridiculous hot take based off unreliable small samples of data and taking it completely at face value, I value film and play analysis more than impact metrics, but lebron still looks fantastic in that regard

Like you have to ask yourself are you thinking “Lebron isn’t a good defender” or “I don’t want lebron to be a good defender”

That’s the issue here. If you replaced lebrons name with anyone else, and someone said “I watched film and I don’t think Jordan was good on D” and somehow these stats exist back then and they all said he was elite, and a bunch of people are saying he’s elite, a few of them breaking down what happened in certain series you watched and showing you that some of your takeaways when watching the series (like butler beating him consistently off the dribble with no screens, not switching on to the POA) are either demonstratably false or involve a misunderstanding of the scheme situation and adjustments, and most the people who say this watch and discuss basketball serious, and his entire argument was essentially him continuing to say “hmmm idk” and mentioning all defensive team selections, which he got votes for, but includes the media who for the most part only watch their own team + marquee matchups in the first place

You get what that sounds completely ridiculous right?

You originally said something along the lines of “show me some stats and I might be convinced, i didn’t believe he did great on D when I watched”

Like we are getting to the point where there is literally nothing else I can show you because we are LITERALLY running out of things we can do to evaluate defense

Like it’s not even that there isn’t anything else that shows he’s elite, we are nearly at a point where WE HAVE RUN OUT OF THINGS THAT MEASURE DEFENSE!!!

Like, come on lol. What else can I show you at this point. I’m not gonna break down film on how His defense was elite in the playoffs,I’d say a top 10 perimeter defender in the nba esp factoring in communication and him quarterbacking the D, and went up top 1-5 range perimeter D in the playoffs (and closer to 1 probably).

There’s probably a film breakdown somewhere online where they say he’s either all defensive level or near all defense level (which keep in mind, since he’s a forward, and AD/Giannis/Bam/Turner are all forwards, is impressive), and how he stepped up defensively in the playoffs.

But like, there’s literally NOTHING ELSE I can show you at this point, like if you’re going to agree to disagree now without stating an argument other than “i just feel this way” then you’re just telling me you don’t wanna listen and I’ve wasted my time lol

Sorry if this sounds aggressive I got into a argument with someone before this lol

But I feel we’ve been discussing this for a few pages the least you can do is actually respond to my points, like you can’t say show me some stats, have nearly literally every single one shown, and continue to ignore it lol

I do think you’re honest about this so I’m just wondering what could it possibly take for you to see lebron was an elite defender? Like I’m curious because even though it’s pretty obvious I literally can’t think of anything else except for a detailed film breakdown because that’s quite basically THE ONLY THING left to evaluate defense since every other one that shows him as elite you’ve kind of hand waved away

Like I get the idea of eye test not fitting in with stats and it’s a valid thing, at the same time, you need to understand

I live in LA, I watch every lakers game, and at the very least the observations you’ve made so far (defending the other teams best player, being beat without screens vs butler) which are reasonable in the sense that that’s what a some people think because of narrative, I can literally tell you those observations aren’t true or are inaccurate representations of the lakers different schemes on defense vs particular opponents.

Like I get valuing eye test but we’re literally in a situation here where I think it’s just fair to say mines gonna be more accurate here? Like not to be cocky but we’re talking about a situation where I literally didn’t miss a single playoff game, and can tell you at least some of the series how the lakers adjusted their different playoff matchups for the most part, their strategy to guard the point of attack or biggest threat on the other team, etc etc.

Like essentially you’re saying you saw a few defensive breakdowns, and made an observation that was demonstratably false, + all defensive votes and saying that evidence hold more weight than

Literally nearly every good statistical measurement of defense

And even when we compare our eye tests, realistically I feel considering how much more I watch the lakers + me understanding the teams approach and scheme more, isn’t it fair to say mine will be more accurate and deeper? Sure there’s gonna be bias but saying something like rondo benign a good defender when he was only a good defender in the playoffs, and only when they weren’t in a man defense and legitimately a bottom of the league level defender in the RS, like

I feel there’s def a clear gap in terms of how accurate our eye tests here are too lol, even if you believe I’m biased

[Djoker]

@UniBroDavis

I don't disagree with what you said about Bird. I just disagree that he won't dominate today's NBA more than 2020 Lebron did. Essentially I agree with most of the points you made just not the conclusions.

Regarding defense...

You wrote a lot of stuff and I commend you on it but you're accusing me of denying the facts. I'm not denying what the stats show. I'm simply not convinced of the usefulness of said stats like DBPM, DRPM, DRAPM, DPIPM and so on. You cannot evaluate defense with those stats. There's just too many outliers to consider those results meritable. Any defensive stat that has Jokic above Giannis is just ludicrous. Ranking Lebron as the worst defender in the league in 2018 is also ridiculous. He wasn't good defensively but worst in the league...? It's the other extreme and I don't buy it.

I also think our argument is kind of down to semantics at this point. I called Lebron a slight positive where you said he's a big positive. But you also said Kawhi, Butler, Siakam and Bam were better defensively. I could add a few more like PJ Tucker, Jayson Tatum and Luguentz Dort that I think off the top of my head I'd rather have defensively than Lebron. That puts him around 8th-10th in the league in 2020 as a defensive SF. I think it's justified to say that's a slight positive. It's definitely above average but far from All-Defensive level which is elite. I think we can agree on his impact but disagree on how we classify it. To appease you I can say Lebron was somewhat positive on defense. In terms of the 0 to 10 scale that you established I'd say he's a +4.

I won't continue this debate anymore. I think we've been over everything.

[MyUniBroDavis]

@UniBroDavis

I don't disagree with what you said about Bird. I just disagree that he won't dominate today's NBA more than 2020 Lebron did. Essentially I agree with most of the points you made just not the conclusions.

Regarding defense...

You wrote a lot of stuff and I commend you on it but you're accusing me of denying the facts. I'm not denying what the stats show. I'm simply not convinced of the usefulness of said stats like DBPM, DRPM, DRAPM, DPIPM and so on. You cannot evaluate defense with those stats. There's just too many outliers to consider those results meritable. Any defensive stat that has Jokic above Giannis is just ludicrous. Ranking Lebron as the worst defender in the league in 2018 is also ridiculous. He wasn't good defensively but worst in the league...? It's the other extreme and I don't buy it.

I also think our argument is kind of down to semantics at this point. I called Lebron a slight positive where you said he's a big positive. But you also said Kawhi, Butler, Siakam and Bam were better defensively. I could add a few more like PJ Tucker, Jayson Tatum and Luguentz Dort that I think off the top of my head I'd rather have defensively than Lebron. That puts him around 8th-10th in the league in 2020 as a defensive SF. I think it's justified to say that's a slight positive. It's definitely above average but far from All-Defensive level which is elite. I think we can agree on his impact but disagree on how we classify it. To appease you I can say Lebron was somewhat positive on defense. In terms of the 0 to 10 scale that you established I'd say he's a +4.

I won't continue this debate anymore. I think we've been over everything.

But I mentioned other stats like synergy data too, and it’s important to note looking at isolated incidents where single ones are inaccurate doesn’t mean much

The stats aren’t perfect because no stat is perfect. But it’s fair to say when everything is in agreement with something it’s significant vs just throwing it away for no reason because of an odd result here and there in one of the 13 categories

I said the MEDIA has him that high too. I didn’t say I rank him there

I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’ve been saying at this point and you havent really made an argument for why his defense isn’t elite

[freethedevil]

The curry comparisons are really wild. Curry was a vastly better shooter(duh) was far quicker, moves vastly quicker off the ball. Bird's strength is passing but despite creating way more off the ball than bird does, postseasons where he's injured still have curry assisting more of his team's shots than bird does in his best runs.

Bird's only real advantage "defense" obviously goes away here and his inside scoring goes poof. Long 2's probably become harder and even if he hits them at the same clip as we've seen with durant, thay is not paticularly hard to tkae away come playoff time. The idea that bird would be curry in the modern nba is silly, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. The fact that with a team and era perfectyl suited for him he was a worse postseaon performe than curry is pretty damning honestly.

Hitting cury for postseason resiliency and then looking the other way with bird is really something. And no "toughness" isn't going to save 90's defenses from getting ripped to shreds by someone taking 11 threes a game, sorry. Espeiclaly not if you can't even hedge. If bird could hack it, there's no reason curry couldn't.

Curry was a better shooter from 3pt range. Inside the arc Bird was better and besides, nobody is a vastly better shooter than Larry Bird.
Curry is hilairously better at every single spot from three point range which in any era sinc e the three point line was introduced would obviously be worth more than 2's. Curry is a better free throw shooter, and cury has led the league in midrange effiency multiple times shooting better than bird twicw. Curry is indeed a "vastly better shooter" than larry bird both in terms of volume and effiency.


Before Curry popped up Bird was widely considered the GOAT shooter. The eras they are playing in are vastly different. Put Curry up against handchecking and physical defenses and I don't think he's the same force he is today.
The defenders now are longer and more mobile. No one is doing **** 1 on 1 to curry. Curry actually has a stronger and studier core than bird does, so it's funny to me you think Curry would somehow not be able to handle 'physicality. But I'm impressed at your optimism about bird doing well agaisnt ad, embid, gobert, giannis inside, becuase you know, he would be playing pf lol.

Heck being so injury prone he might have just broken down physically and become another Penny Hardaway.
TFW ehen Bird is more injury prone than curry
This era is tailor-made for him. Curry is much quicker with and without the ball but he's also a lot smaller, can't play in the post and Bird is much more intelligent than just about any player in history at exploiting the defense.
Bird being bigger might matter if he could jump at an elite level or was matching up against point gaurds. As neither is true, its abslolutely not making up for the quickness gap. Curry has a lower cente of gravity, is sturdier, has a better first step, is fa quicker,not actually sure why you think lowry and chris paul would have an easier time with hm than a lebron, or kawhi oer giannis or ad would have on bird




You are obviously one of those people who believes that today's players are better than those of prior eras. Lebron is better than Jordan,
Lebron is bettee than jordan because he has routinely had signdficantly ore impact than --any-- version of jordan on a wide variety of teams be it without spacing(2012, 2015), with terribel casts(09-10, 15) or good casts(12, 16). Lebron has deomnstrated --relative to era-- he is a more effective winner at basically any context. That Jordan at best projects to be an average shooter from 3, and was mostly a drive and kick player who defenses couldn't hedge against just makes the time machine argument even easier


If bird had even comparable handles, he wouldn't be turning the ball over as much despite handling the ball far less inthe postseason.

Curry is better than Bird...
Curry was also better realtive to era in the postseason and the regular season. But at least relative to era its close.

and that's fine but if you have such preconceived notions why debate in the first place? You baslessly tried to a ssert that a player that's worse at almost everything relevant to success in the modern league would somehow be better. My pre-concieved nottions can be changed with evidence, yours never do.

You: Look at these whacky one year apms which dont have bigs as valuable defensively!
Me: Bigs clearly dominante if you increase the ampm sample to three year or 5 years or use stats which stablize the noise like pipm
You: But the one year samples!

You: Lebron anchore defenses didn't do well enough in the psotseason.
Me: Jordan anchored postseason defenses are doing much worse than lebron anchored postseason defenses
You: But Jordan did Well!

You: There's no evidence lebron is a better defender than bird
Unibro: posts every impact stat, every granulr defensive stat possible indicating lebron is a better defende than he's even arguing he is
You: But voters!

You: EVERYTHING'S UP NOW
Unibro: Actually asssits are down
You: ignore assists coz EVERYTHING'S UP

Unibro: Defensive impact stats say...
You: ONE YEAR APM HAS JOKIC ABOVE GIANNIS
Me: Jokic is well below Giannis in stablized versions of apm(pipm, rpm, ect) and three or 5 year apm.
You: DBPM says.....
Me: DBPM is worse at predicting winning than anything i just listed
YOU: ALL STATS BAD

IIf you're just goign to repeat other people's baseless opinions and put your fingers in for every point someone makes,I don't know why you're here.

[Djoker]

@UniBroDavis

I don't disagree with what you said about Bird. I just disagree that he won't dominate today's NBA more than 2020 Lebron did. Essentially I agree with most of the points you made just not the conclusions.

Regarding defense...

You wrote a lot of stuff and I commend you on it but you're accusing me of denying the facts. I'm not denying what the stats show. I'm simply not convinced of the usefulness of said stats like DBPM, DRPM, DRAPM, DPIPM and so on. You cannot evaluate defense with those stats. There's just too many outliers to consider those results meritable. Any defensive stat that has Jokic above Giannis is just ludicrous. Ranking Lebron as the worst defender in the league in 2018 is also ridiculous. He wasn't good defensively but worst in the league...? It's the other extreme and I don't buy it.

I also think our argument is kind of down to semantics at this point. I called Lebron a slight positive where you said he's a big positive. But you also said Kawhi, Butler, Siakam and Bam were better defensively. I could add a few more like PJ Tucker, Jayson Tatum and Luguentz Dort that I think off the top of my head I'd rather have defensively than Lebron. That puts him around 8th-10th in the league in 2020 as a defensive SF. I think it's justified to say that's a slight positive. It's definitely above average but far from All-Defensive level which is elite. I think we can agree on his impact but disagree on how we classify it. To appease you I can say Lebron was somewhat positive on defense. In terms of the 0 to 10 scale that you established I'd say he's a +4.

I won't continue this debate anymore. I think we've been over everything.

But I mentioned other stats like synergy data too, and it’s important to note looking at isolated incidents where single ones are inaccurate doesn’t mean much

The stats aren’t perfect because no stat is perfect. But it’s fair to say when everything is in agreement with something it’s significant vs just throwing it away for no reason because of an odd result here and there in one of the 13 categories

I said the MEDIA has him that high too. I didn’t say I rank him there

I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’ve been saying at this point and you havent really made an argument for why his defense isn’t elite

What media love?

Last time I checked Lebron didn't receive a single DPOY vote in 2020 and didn't make an All-Defensive team. And his teammate Anthony Davis was the defensive anchor of the Lakers in the regular season and the playoffs. 2nd in DPOY voting, 1st Team All-Defense and I watched him dominate on defense with my own eyes which I didn't see for Lebron.

[MyUniBroDavis]

@UniBroDavis

I don't disagree with what you said about Bird. I just disagree that he won't dominate today's NBA more than 2020 Lebron did. Essentially I agree with most of the points you made just not the conclusions.

Regarding defense...

You wrote a lot of stuff and I commend you on it but you're accusing me of denying the facts. I'm not denying what the stats show. I'm simply not convinced of the usefulness of said stats like DBPM, DRPM, DRAPM, DPIPM and so on. You cannot evaluate defense with those stats. There's just too many outliers to consider those results meritable. Any defensive stat that has Jokic above Giannis is just ludicrous. Ranking Lebron as the worst defender in the league in 2018 is also ridiculous. He wasn't good defensively but worst in the league...? It's the other extreme and I don't buy it.

I also think our argument is kind of down to semantics at this point. I called Lebron a slight positive where you said he's a big positive. But you also said Kawhi, Butler, Siakam and Bam were better defensively. I could add a few more like PJ Tucker, Jayson Tatum and Luguentz Dort that I think off the top of my head I'd rather have defensively than Lebron. That puts him around 8th-10th in the league in 2020 as a defensive SF. I think it's justified to say that's a slight positive. It's definitely above average but far from All-Defensive level which is elite. I think we can agree on his impact but disagree on how we classify it. To appease you I can say Lebron was somewhat positive on defense. In terms of the 0 to 10 scale that you established I'd say he's a +4.

I won't continue this debate anymore. I think we've been over everything.

But I mentioned other stats like synergy data too, and it’s important to note looking at isolated incidents where single ones are inaccurate doesn’t mean much

The stats aren’t perfect because no stat is perfect. But it’s fair to say when everything is in agreement with something it’s significant vs just throwing it away for no reason because of an odd result here and there in one of the 13 categories

I said the MEDIA has him that high too. I didn’t say I rank him there

I feel you aren’t paying attention to what I’ve been saying at this point and you havent really made an argument for why his defense isn’t elite

What media love?

Last time I checked Lebron didn't receive a single DPOY vote in 2020 and didn't make an All-Defensive team. And his teammate Anthony Davis was the defensive anchor of the Lakers in the regular season and the playoffs. 2nd in DPOY voting, 1st Team All-Defense and I watched him dominate on defense with my own eyes which I didn't see for Lebron.

The media has him as a top 5 defensive perimeter forward based in youre criteria and you changed that to that being where I have him.

That would realistically put him as a top 10 defensive player considering forwards are better defenders than guards typically

I hardly give a rats *** how the media votes for him because that’s an idiotic way to evaluate defense