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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#381 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 12:51 am

skones wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
He'll have to sustain it a little longer, but I absolutely agree. I played devil's advocate for the contract all along because I felt he had the potential to shoot the 3 much better this year. His form is terrific and it's not unusual for someone his age to make a leap in that department. If he sustains it until the deadline, he's got positive value. If he sustains it all year, he's a huge asset.

It's becoming a bit of a social fad to see who can diss him harder regardless of whether he's actually performing. I'll grant that he's a bad player if he's not hitting his 3's, but that's true of literally hundreds of perimeter players around the league, including many who make more money than Pat and are still considered assets. His RPM is actually very good for his contract, although it won't be if he goes back to hitting 35% of his 3's.

Pat's contract is also the only reason they were able to operate this far over the cap and have this salary slot available for a trade because they had his Early Bird rights. People should be glad the Bucks were willing to raise the payroll that much. I'm keeping him for now and betting on his improved stroke.


The problem is that Pat has had stretches like this before only to take precipitous drops later on. There is no "devils advocate" for the contract because even if Connaughton does outplay it, there's no real excuse for being bent over a barrel by his agent at the time of signing. We gave him far more than he was worth and his current play doesn't change that. If you think he's going to outplay his current value, you use that to your advantage and create a value deal for your situation. You don't pay him more and hope he lives up to it. That's nonsensical. If you're making a deal for the purpose of a salary slot you CERTAINLY don't give him a third year, and you CERTAINLY don't give him a PO.

Oct 17 48.4%
Nov 17 40.0%
Feb 18 40.0%
Mar 19 41.4%
Feb 20 50.0%

So when you say, "he'll have to sustain it for a little longer," I think it's more for the entirety of the season.

But what if both parties (the Bucks and Pat+his agent) knew that Pat had recently made improvement in his shooting, and that this improvement would continue? If they both knew this, and Pat wanted to get paid fairly - in a multi-year bird deal that doesn't count against the Bucks cap - based on how both sides believed he would perform, then you could argue it's a smart move by the Bucks.

In his last 52 games (this year, last year's playoffs, and the final 25 games of the regular season), Pat has a 3p% of 40%. That is a decent sample size.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#382 » by skones » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:02 am

giannis and 1 wrote:But what if both parties (the Bucks and Pat+his agent) knew that Pat had recently made improvement in his shooting, and that this improvement would continue? If they both knew this, and Pat wanted to get paid fairly - in a multi-year bird deal that doesn't count against the Bucks cap - based on how both sides believed he would perform, then you could argue it's a smart move by the Bucks.

In his last 52 games (this year, last year's playoffs, and the final 25 games of the regular season), Pat has a 3p% of 40%. That is a decent sample size.


Tell me, when was Pat Connaughton going to demonstrate this "improved shooting stroke" to other teams so he could change his market value? He wasn't, and he couldn't. The fact of the matter is there was no way for anyone to know he "made some improvement in his shooting" given the NBA is a prove it league. All of these guys are incredible shooters in open gyms.

In other news, this small sample size this year? Last 8+ games, which includes this one (the +), Connaughton is shooting 32.3% from distance, yet we're really going to act like he's definitively improved for the long run? His percentage currently has a boon from a 9 game sample in which he went 16/30. Given his track record, one looks like the career outlier, the other a norm.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#383 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:03 am

Would be tough to fit his salary in but Rubio might be a good fit to either back up Jrue, or move Jrue to sg and DDV to the bench. I know a lot of people wanted him in the summer...
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#384 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:20 am

skones wrote:
giannis and 1 wrote:But what if both parties (the Bucks and Pat+his agent) knew that Pat had recently made improvement in his shooting, and that this improvement would continue? If they both knew this, and Pat wanted to get paid fairly - in a multi-year bird deal that doesn't count against the Bucks cap - based on how both sides believed he would perform, then you could argue it's a smart move by the Bucks.

In his last 52 games (this year, last year's playoffs, and the final 25 games of the regular season), Pat has a 3p% of 40%. That is a decent sample size.


Tell me, when was Pat Connaughton going to demonstrate this "improved shooting stroke" to other teams so he could change his market value? He wasn't, and he couldn't. The fact of the matter is there was no way for anyone to know he "made some improvement in his shooting" given the NBA is a prove it league. All of these guys are incredible shooters in open gyms.

In other news, this small sample size this year? Last 8+ games, which includes this one (the +), Connaughton is shooting 32.3% from distance, yet we're really going to act like he's definitively improved for the long run? He's percentage currently has a boon from a 9 game sample in which he went 16/30. Given his track record, one looks like the career outlier, the other a norm.

I'm not saying other teams would have had knowledge that he was on the cusp of becoming an improved shooter. But he could have taken a 1 year deal with another team to prove it, then cashed out on a longer term contract after that. If he had taken a 1 year deal, it likely would have been more than the 4.9m he is getting paid this year.

Why are you shrinking the sample size to only 8 games. I took his last 52 games, which includes this year, the bubble, and his last bunch of games before last year's season got suspended. 8 games is not enough to indicate anything, and 17 games likely isn't either. But 52 games is reasonable; he has definitely gotten better are shooting the 3.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#385 » by skones » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:38 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
I'm not saying other teams would have had knowledge that he was on the cusp of becoming an improved shooter. But he could have taken a 1 year deal with another team to prove it, then cashed out on a longer term contract after that. If he had taken a 1 year deal, it likely would have been more than the 4.9m he is getting paid this year.

Why are you shrinking the sample size to only 8 games. I took his last 52 games, which includes this year, the bubble, and his last bunch of games before last year's season got suspended. 8 games is not enough to indicate anything, and 17 games likely isn't either. But 52 games is reasonable; he has definitely gotten better are shooting the 3.


His market value hinges upon other teams knowing what he is. So, if he doesn't prove it, where is the incentive to pay him more? There isn't any. What you're suggesting might have happened doesn't make any sense.

Why am I shrinking the sample size? It's the sample size everyone is using, including yourself, to suggest he's an improved shooter THIS season. You're using 8 games this year. I'm using 8 games. Nobody was claiming Connaughton was some definitively improved shooter at the conclusion of last season. Pat Connaughton shot 33.1% from distance last year. That was the number even with his hot shooting in the bubble.

Now lets talk about this 52 game sample size which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's ridiculously arbitrary to serve a narrative. You're suggesting a random awakening of a skillset in late January of last season in which he shot a complete outlier at 50% from distance. I mean, seriously, you're sitting there like:

23.3% last November, nah
33.3% last December, nah
24% last January, nah
50% last February, YES LETS START THERE
18.8% in March, well, it's only 6 games, so sure, we can include that I guess.

What?
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#386 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:49 am

It's not arbitrary at all because 3-point shooting routinely improves a lot at this stage of a player's career. Those reps matter a lot. You are wise to take any indication that a player is making a leap and run with it.

But if your premise is that you can never expect a player to improve his 3-point percentage and gamble on certain players to be more likely to do so than others (for example, a guy with perfect form like Pat) then why bother scouting at all? Players are just robots!
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#387 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:32 am

skones wrote:
giannis and 1 wrote:
I'm not saying other teams would have had knowledge that he was on the cusp of becoming an improved shooter. But he could have taken a 1 year deal with another team to prove it, then cashed out on a longer term contract after that. If he had taken a 1 year deal, it likely would have been more than the 4.9m he is getting paid this year.

Why are you shrinking the sample size to only 8 games. I took his last 52 games, which includes this year, the bubble, and his last bunch of games before last year's season got suspended. 8 games is not enough to indicate anything, and 17 games likely isn't either. But 52 games is reasonable; he has definitely gotten better are shooting the 3.


His market value hinges upon other teams knowing what he is. So, if he doesn't prove it, where is the incentive to pay him more? There isn't any. What you're suggesting might have happened doesn't make any sense.

Why am I shrinking the sample size? It's the sample size everyone is using, including yourself, to suggest he's an improved shooter THIS season. You're using 8 games this year. I'm using 8 games. Nobody was claiming Connaughton was some definitively improved shooter at the conclusion of last season. Pat Connaughton shot 33.1% from distance last year. That was the number even with his hot shooting in the bubble.

Now lets talk about this 52 game sample size which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's ridiculously arbitrary to serve a narrative. You're suggesting a random awakening of a skillset in late January of last season in which he shot a complete outlier at 50% from distance. I mean, seriously, you're sitting there like:

23.3% last November, nah
33.3% last December, nah
24% last January, nah
50% last February, YES LETS START THERE
18.8% in March, well, it's only 6 games, so sure, we can include that I guess.

What?

He could have taken a 1 year deal and cashed out after that. That's his leverage - that he will be able to get that contract with another team after proving that he has improved as a shooter.

I chose that point because he started shooting better in the second half. Going back to that point includes some cold streaks and some hot streaks. And based on his total stats since then, which includes a number of different situations, he has continued his overall improvement in shooting. And his average including all those, over the last 52 games is 40%. I don't see a problem in this lol...

You seem to think that his recent hot streaks are just hot streaks, and not an improvement in shooting. IMO the fact that he is having more "hot streaks" than before show that his shooting has gotten better. And like CHL said, his form is good, and he is at the age where a lot of players show improvement in shooting.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#388 » by skones » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:00 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
You seem to think that his recent hot streaks are just hot streaks, and not an improvement in shooting. IMO the fact that he is having more "hot streaks" than before show that his shooting has gotten better. And like CHL said, his form is good, and he is at the age where a lot of players show improvement in shooting.


When Pat Connaughton is Pat Connaughton, I'll be sure to remind you and CHL.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#389 » by Fotis St » Thu Feb 4, 2021 5:46 am

Brewhoopfan wrote:After a blazing hot first six games, Donte is 17/63 (27%) in his last 14 games from 3. He's still at 38.7% overall, but his 2 pt % has cratered this year to 43%. It pains me to say it, but an upgrade will be needed.


After his early 3p hot streak we should have sold him high. Should have bench him to keep his stats high and sell him. That is what a GM like Morrey would do. It baffles me how a player on his small size has so bad handles and finishing at the rim. He doesn't lack of athleticism, nor work ethic, I think it is a talent issue.
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Post#390 » by AussieBuck » Thu Feb 4, 2021 6:05 am

Donte's an excellent three and D role player with the added bonus of being awesome at passing to Giannis on the move. I mean I'm fine with moving him for a 4th gun if that's doable but otherwise I don't know what you dudes want from a 5th starter. Those guys are never perfectly well rounded.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#391 » by Jez2983 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 6:14 am

AussieBuck wrote:Donte's an excellent three and D role player with the added bonus of being awesome at passing to Giannis on the move. I mean I'm fine with moving him for a 4th gun if that's doable but otherwise I don't know what you dudes want from a 5th starter. Those guys are never perfectly well rounded.


It's definitely Brook that's the issue in the starting 5, and DJA from the bench. If we can upgrade those 2 spots we might have something.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#392 » by DrWood » Thu Feb 4, 2021 6:53 am

skones wrote:
DrWood wrote:
WRau1 wrote:PatC and DJA are negative assets, especially PatC. We don't have the assets to attach to them to dump unless it's for a bigger, just as bad contract. We should especially not attach them to anything remotely considered a positive asset if we're looking for an actual rotation player.

That's absurd. You could argue he's overpaid, but he's no worse than tied (with Portis) for the 4th best player on the team so far this year.
And the context of our roster makes him worth 3 years 16 million pumping up his value to positive? That's not how it works. He's absolutely a negative asset. I don't see how it's debatable.

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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#393 » by RiotPunch » Thu Feb 4, 2021 7:05 am

I'm inclined to believe regression is coming for Pat. Sure, guys can improve their shooting consistency in many instances, but I don't buy it here. He's got good form, so does Donte, but they are streaky. Hope I'm wrong and that this is just the new Pat.

Admitting someone is overpaid is the first step to admitting they are a negative value trade asset. At best Pat is neutral value if negotiating with the right teams, IMO. Most instances we'd have to compensate the other team to take him and his money off our hands.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#394 » by tedbrogen » Thu Feb 4, 2021 7:23 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:
giannis and 1 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Bud really has to stop playing all the average/bad players together. I don't lump Pat in with the worst ones, but I can see why some people might given how the lineups he's usually part of perform. His RPM gives some tentative evidence that he's not one of the ones responsible for those lineups tanking though.

Yup and some of those minutes could be used to develop the rookies. See how Nwora or Merrill do with 4 starters.


I'd support playing any of the no-defense snipers with the starters more. It seems so obvious. And DDV could help keep some bench lineups from collapsing completely, especially by breaking up some of those damn Forbes/DJA chipmunk squad minutes.


Yeah, I personally would play DJA and Forbes individually with the starters more and have DDV mixed in with the bench unit to help the defense with that unit. Also, helps spacing of the first unit because teams will be much less willing to leave DJA or Forbes wide open from three but are absolutely not concerned about DDV's shot at this point. Heck, it would have been interesting to give Nwora minutes with the Jrue/Midds/Giannis/Portis because he would just be getting wide open looks non-stop.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#395 » by AussieBuck » Thu Feb 4, 2021 7:26 am

RiotPunch wrote:I'm inclined to believe regression is coming for Pat. Sure, guys can improve their shooting consistency in many instances, but I don't buy it here. He's got good form, so does Donte, but they are streaky. Hope I'm wrong and that this is just the new Pat.

Admitting someone is overpaid is the first step to admitting they are a negative value trade asset. At best Pat is neutral value if negotiating with the right teams, IMO. Most instances we'd have to compensate the other team to take him and his money off our hands.

Pat just has too many violently off shots for me to believe he's ever going to be a sharpshooter. Whenever he misses off to the side by 2 feet I think about him as a baseball pitcher and imagine how wild and frightening he would be to face. :lol:
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#396 » by RiotPunch » Thu Feb 4, 2021 7:49 am

AussieBuck wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I'm inclined to believe regression is coming for Pat. Sure, guys can improve their shooting consistency in many instances, but I don't buy it here. He's got good form, so does Donte, but they are streaky. Hope I'm wrong and that this is just the new Pat.

Admitting someone is overpaid is the first step to admitting they are a negative value trade asset. At best Pat is neutral value if negotiating with the right teams, IMO. Most instances we'd have to compensate the other team to take him and his money off our hands.

Pat just has too many violently off shots for me to believe he's ever going to be a sharpshooter. Whenever he misses off to the side by 2 feet I think about him as a baseball pitcher and imagine how wild and frightening he would be to face. :lol:

Nearly mentioned how tragically off some of his misses are, but tying that to him being a former pitcher is hilarious. Yeah, I'd be like Henry Rowengartner stepping into the batter's box with Pat on the mound. :lol:
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#397 » by skones » Thu Feb 4, 2021 12:24 pm

DrWood wrote:
skones wrote:
DrWood wrote:That's absurd. You could argue he's overpaid, but he's no worse than tied (with Portis) for the 4th best player on the team so far this year.
And the context of our roster makes him worth 3 years 16 million pumping up his value to positive? That's not how it works. He's absolutely a negative asset. I don't see how it's debatable.

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Well, common logic says you shouldn't put a whole lot of stock into small sample size. So your eyes and stats? Not worth a whole lot. But hey, interesting that "stats" mean things to you now given you've lauded Pat Connaughton as an "excellent defender" for some time now without stats actually supporting that.

The thing about value in this league? You actually have to demonstrate you do things well at an NBA level with consistency. Pat Connaughton has not done that throughout his career. Pat Connaughton is now paid 5 million a year. What Pat Connaughton has ACTUALLY done to this juncture, is demonstrate that he's "a guy" in the NBA. Teams know that they can find "a guy" for cheap without committing A) 5 million a year and B) long term. Thus, Pat Connaughton is a negative asset. Go ahead and mosey over to the trade board. Run a poll, see what posters think of Pat Connaughton. Positive, neutral, or negative.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#398 » by skones » Thu Feb 4, 2021 12:26 pm

RiotPunch wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I'm inclined to believe regression is coming for Pat. Sure, guys can improve their shooting consistency in many instances, but I don't buy it here. He's got good form, so does Donte, but they are streaky. Hope I'm wrong and that this is just the new Pat.

Admitting someone is overpaid is the first step to admitting they are a negative value trade asset. At best Pat is neutral value if negotiating with the right teams, IMO. Most instances we'd have to compensate the other team to take him and his money off our hands.

Pat just has too many violently off shots for me to believe he's ever going to be a sharpshooter. Whenever he misses off to the side by 2 feet I think about him as a baseball pitcher and imagine how wild and frightening he would be to face. :lol:

Nearly mentioned how tragically off some of his misses are, but tying that to him being a former pitcher is hilarious. Yeah, I'd be like Henry Rowengartner stepping into the batter's box with Pat on the mound. :lol:


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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#399 » by Jez2983 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 12:31 pm

skones wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Pat just has too many violently off shots for me to believe he's ever going to be a sharpshooter. Whenever he misses off to the side by 2 feet I think about him as a baseball pitcher and imagine how wild and frightening he would be to face. :lol:

Nearly mentioned how tragically off some of his misses are, but tying that to him being a former pitcher is hilarious. Yeah, I'd be like Henry Rowengartner stepping into the batter's box with Pat on the mound. :lol:


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Post#400 » by DutchManDanFan » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:02 pm

Bucks 3P% in Wins and Losses:

W: 43.7% - 40.5 3PA pg ............................. L: 33.6% - 37.6 3PA pg

Code: Select all

Wins (13):                                 Losses (8):
Khris Middleton         0.56  (72)         Khris Middleton         0.31  (49)
Bobby Portis            0.50  (40)         Bobby Portis            0.50  (6)
Donte DiVincenzo        0.39  (64)         Donte DiVincenzo        0.41  (37)
Bryn Forbes             0.51  (59)         Bryn Forbes             0.29  (21)
Pat Connaughton         0.35  (34)         Pat Connaughton         0.50  (30)
Jrue Holiday            0.37  (57)         Jrue Holiday            0.38  (50)
Brook Lopez             0.43  (58)         Brook Lopez             0.29  (42)
Giannis Antetokounmpo   0.26  (38)         Giannis Antetokounmpo   0.30  (44)
D.J. Augustin           0.50  (50)         D.J. Augustin           0.08  (13)
D.J. Wilson             0.40  (20)         D.J. Wilson             0.00  (2)
Jordan Nwora            0.50  (14)         Jordan Nwora            0.50  (2)
Sam Merrill             0.50  (6)          Sam Merrill             0.50  (2)
Thanasis Antetokounmpo  0.33  (6)          Thanasis Antetokounmpo  0.00  (1)
Torrey Craig            0.33  (6)          Torrey Craig            0.00  (2)

Khris, Forbes and DJA struggle against good D and Bobby doesn't take many 3's when he doesn't get good looks. So against good teams playmaking must improve to give our shooters better looks.

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