1988 Bird vs 2020 LeBron

[colts18]

Spacing today is like a wide open Highway compared to the 1990's which was like 2 lane road in Rush hour. Huge difference. Look at these MJ players and notice how many players are in the paint and how many of his teammates are either in bad positioning in terms of spacing or a non-threat as a shooter.



Postup:




Scoring at the basket in those gifs is another difficulty compared to the wide open lanes today that Giannis encounters.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Like I’m really just trying to procrastinate doing work rn but I don’t really think anyone here believes lebron wasn’t elite defensively at this point lol

During the 2019-2020 season, no I would not say LeBron was elite defensively. Overall toughness, tenacity and intensity of defense was down across the league (has been for a few years now) and even in a league with a much larger emphasis on offense over defense, LeBron still:

-did not make all defensive team (so not a top 10 defender and there's only 6 or 7 players in the league I would call elite defensively),
-he had career low numbers in steals
-his blocks were among the lowest in his career,
-he was only 6th on his team in defensive rating - even if you remove Horton-Tucker who only played in 6 games, LeBron is still only 5th on his team in defensive rating
-He was 9th in the league in defensive win shares, but we shouldn't put too much weight in that, given Tatum finished 7th. Do you consider Tatum an elite defender? Of course not. Tatum isn't even the best defender on his team - Marcus Smart (1st team all defense selection) is, yet Smart finished 28th in defensive win shares.

I'd say in 2019-2020, LeBron was a slightly above average defender. He had moments of brilliance, but he was also very inconsistent on that end of the floor, often conserving his energy for the offensive side.

On the basis of statistical arguments and All defense I’ve already made my arguments for like 4 pages, the stats are pretty blatantly clear that he’s an elite defender, and put him better than where I personally rate him. All defensive voting is essentially useless, the idea that only 7 players in the nba are elite on defense is interesting, since it’s basically saying the tenth best defender on earth isn’t an elite defender but ok lol


On def rtg, unless you’re using the formula in the bball ref profiles, you’re docking him points here when only 1 of the players above him was regularly in the rotation throughout the season. cook/kostas/dudley were for the most part garbage time only for the majority of the year, more than that cooks the worst defender on the lakers

Using on court def rtg when lebron still stands out as one of the best in his team is weird, and not to be mean but shows a lack of understanding of how to use it, since guys like 08 Garnett and 03 Duncan rank similarly when listed among their teammates

Obviously this isn’t to say that they were underrated or lebron is at their level but on court def rtg relative to teammates, most of them being garbage time teammates at that, isn’t evidence here

[MyUniBroDavis]

tl;dr

Not interested in ten x 2 cherry picked examples.

I mean you’re someone blatantly trolling because you have some sort of personal hatred towards someone that doesn’t know you exist lol kinda sad.

I don’t even rate Jordan the way Free does, but at least he’s willing to make arguments about it

Personal hatred.

Two guys with over 30 years in the league and he’s going to cherry pick ten plays each to make the point that LeBron would be “vastly harder to stop” driving into a crowed lane in the 80’s. Does that really deserve attention? Driving into the lane when there are more guys there, who are bigger (real PF’s), shooters weren’t spamming threes and the rules/culture allowed for more physicality...that’s vastly better for a drive and kick player? Ok. If that’s a hill he wants to climb, I’m not going to debate that.

I mean I don’t even agree with free on Jordan mostly but it’s pretty clear that brons not you’re favorite player lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

Idk why we are talking about defense today vs back then


So essentially I do think it’s a mixed bag.

As a whole, I’d agree it’s easier to score today than in the 90s, illegal D rules though were somewhat of an equalizer, we see effeciency drop when they were first introduced in 98, more importantly we see the effeciency of superstar wings plummet for mid 90s vs early 2000s

Now this led to more two man game, and eventually after a few teams incorporated what the doc (thibs) Celtics were doing more spacing, and for sure certain players benefit an extreme amount from this


As a whole I’d say it’s easier to score now than vs the 90s. But it’s not as ridiculous of a difference as people like to say, a lot of players back then would be more efficient today but some probably wouldn’t see a big boost, iirc (this year kinda wilding) most other years comparing effeciency of the top scorers there’s a clear gap but not by as much as you’d think


I do think mid 2000s iso wings, maybe a few other eras like 70s wings maybe? are really unlucky in this type of comparison when using raw effeciency, but using RTS just turns the problem the other way.

As a whole a guy like Jordan would probably be among the best scorers today. I don’t agree you could just wall him off because he had such a great post game and in between game. One thing also is that he’s someone that could use angles well, and honestly if you relook at him from how explosive he was in “compromising” positions it’s kind of absurd

The reason I say “among” is because KD and Harden are in that category as well. Harden I feel no one can break someone down as well as he can but once he gets past the first line, even though he’s so gifted as a passer he struggles against help D at times, and isn’t thaaat good of a finisher when he faced help.

KD I mean is a god, but obviously we haven’t seen him succeed outside of the warriors in the playoffs where defenses game plan more to the same extent he did there so we should see if he goes back to oof mode or if it act was him evolving his game

The way I view Jordan is similar to how I view Kobe on offense, souped up Kawhi if you want it in a simplistic sense, and obv Kawhi is a best in the league candidate level player even though the hype died last playoffs. I think in certain situations he could for sure do what harden or Giannis did scoring wise and in others he wouldn’t be as successful

I would say lebrons not in a more difficult position than players back then were but 2020 was hardly a 5 out Houston rockets offense for him 24/7.

I don’t get why Jordan’s getting mentioned thouh

I haven’t watched a lot of Jordan but just from what I know I don’t see why he wouldn’t be crazy successful today, iso wings are kind of getting a resurgence and a guy like Jordan would thrive like that

(For anyone mad I mention Kobe on that level keep in mind I’m on the Kobe is a top 5 offensive player ever, in terms of ability at least, bandwagon)

[HeartBreakKid]

Spacing today is like a wide open Highway compared to the 1990's which was like 2 lane road in Rush hour. Huge difference. Look at these MJ players and notice how many players are in the paint and how many of his teammates are either in bad positioning in terms of spacing or a non-threat as a shooter.



Postup:




Scoring at the basket in those gifs is another difficulty compared to the wide open lanes today that Giannis encounters.

He actually has two open teammates on the first gif, and one of them is wide open. Who are those players?

Second gif has an open guy also - I don't know if he can shoot, can't see what number his jersey are cause of vid quality.

[freethedevil]

Spacing today is like a wide open Highway compared to the 1990's which was like 2 lane road in Rush hour. Huge difference. Look at these MJ players and notice how many players are in the paint and how many of his teammates are either in bad positioning in terms of spacing or a non-threat as a shooter.



Postup:




Scoring at the basket in those gifs is another difficulty compared to the wide open lanes today that Giannis encounters.

This is your proof of --tough 90's defenses--?


Jordan is only doubled when he's already at the paint. You are out of you rmind if you think giannis:
https://youtu.be/tSsjKd2IdSk?t=94
Who was easily scoring on two-three defenders at the rim vs the pistons, the celtics(a top 10 defense) and the raptors(an atg postseason defense) isn't driving to the rim there in his sleep. Not to mention the --wide open-- players on both possessoins Giannis would have abasolutely no issue kicking out too.

Reminder colt, this is what it takes to stop giannis:
https://youtu.be/L-EPx-v1XIY?t=51
https://youtu.be/XwVkriJPZ3Y?t=87
That is, not one, not two, not three, but four defenders collapsing on him by the time he's crossed half court.


It doens't matter how many bodies are "clogging up the lane" when only one of them is actually doing anything up until jordan's 90% of the way there. There are two open players on the first possession, are you seriously trying to tell me giannis isn't making those reads?


Instead of counting how many players are on the lane, why don't you actually look at what he defenders are doing and when they are doing it.. Giannis's spin move easily gets him past those 2 guys at the rim assuming his momentum isn't enough run right through them, and eben if somehow giannis who was routinely crashing through double and triple teams at the rim can't score he ahs two easy, easy passes to make for open looks.

[freethedevil]

Spacing today is like a wide open Highway compared to the 1990's which was like 2 lane road in Rush hour. Huge difference. Look at these MJ players and notice how many players are in the paint and how many of his teammates are either in bad positioning in terms of spacing or a non-threat as a shooter.



Postup:




Scoring at the basket in those gifs is another difficulty compared to the wide open lanes today that Giannis encounters.

He actually has two open teammates on the first gif, and one of them is wide open. Who are those players?

Second gif has an open guy also - I don't know if he can shoot, can't see what number his jersey are cause of vid quality.

It's just astonishing to me,you can look at jordan being allowed to walk to the paint and unironically say "scring at the basket in those gifs is another difficulty" as compared to giannis having 3-4 defenders collasping on him before he's even at the three point line.

[freethedevil]

The equivalency is false. Jordan is not going ot be induvdiually better with or without shooters if the defense defends him like giannis.

You can't defend the best midrange shooter ever like Giannis...
Huh? Shooting 45-50% from the midrange is not goign to compensate for getting a bunch of 66%-70% shots at the rim shaved off. Nt to mention all those kickouts Why woudln't defenses defend him like giannis? Why would they pass up trading 2's at the rim for jordan trying to shoot a bunch of midrangers? If jordan drops from lebron or kareem level scoring production to kd level production, that is a massive win for the defense.

Hedging means you can block off easy passing reads, go look at lebron vs the magic or the celtics. The only thing that was "clogged" in the 90's was the space near the basket, and guess what, if you're big, make good decisions and have momentum that's not stopping you anyway.

So you really think that Giannis would score easier inside with oldschool clogged lanes, without three point line and with more strict ball-handling rules? Giannis wouldn't play like he does had he been born earlier.
Again it being "clogged" is moot because the defense waits way longer to do something. Take a look at the possessoins that have been tracked or even the gifs colt is using. Only one of those defenders "clogging the lane" is actually doing anything wth jordan until he's already at the paint. Moreover there are open players jordan's passing up where the reads are easy to make.

So why don't we stop acting like 6'6 micheal jordan was somehow robbed in an era where he could simulate much bigger and stonger players who happen to pass a lot better.

After very intensive analyzing of many old games, I can't agree that Giannis passes a lot better than Jordan. MJ isn't perfect as a passer and I criticized him a lot because of that in the past, but he's definitely better decision maker and technical passer than Giannis.

Was referring to Lebron. I don't think Giannis is a better passer than jordan but I don't think the gap is anything signficant. Jordan is a better techinal and more creative passer, but Giannis's passes have more velocity and his size is a signifcant advantage(gives him a better range of angles). Kooking at the 88-91 playoffs, the reads are just alot easier back then than now. Jordan's post and midange is still suffecient to make him a better offensive player, but the gap i think gets signficantly reduced with jordan being turned into kd as far as scoring goes. Enough so that Giannis probably tops jordan on his far better defense( and jordan's going to have a tougher time defensively too with high iq floor generals like lebron, chris paul, draymond, jokic, ect, thee to pick on him when he gambles.

Now if you think jordan could become a 40% shooter this gets off-set, but given ben's shooting form analysis it seems more likely jordan would be an averag e three poin tshooter than a great one.

[freethedevil]

Idk why we are talking about defense today vs back then


So essentially I do think it’s a mixed bag.

As a whole, I’d agree it’s easier to score today than in the 90s, illegal D rules though were somewhat of an equalizer, we see effeciency drop when they were first introduced in 98, more importantly we see the effeciency of superstar wings plummet for mid 90s vs early 2000s

Now this led to more two man game, and eventually after a few teams incorporated what the doc (thibs) Celtics were doing more spacing, and for sure certain players benefit an extreme amount from this


As a whole I’d say it’s easier to score now than vs the 90s. But it’s not as ridiculous of a difference as people like to say, a lot of players back then would be more efficient today but some probably wouldn’t see a big boost, iirc (this year kinda wilding) most other years comparing effeciency of the top scorers there’s a clear gap but not by as much as you’d think


I do think mid 2000s iso wings, maybe a few other eras like 70s wings maybe? are really unlucky in this type of comparison when using raw effeciency, but using RTS just turns the problem the other way.

As a whole a guy like Jordan would probably be among the best scorers today. I don’t agree you could just wall him off because he had such a great post game and in between game. One thing also is that he’s someone that could use angles well, and honestly if you relook at him from how explosive he was in “compromising” positions it’s kind of absurd

The reason I say “among” is because KD and Harden are in that category as well. Harden I feel no one can break someone down as well as he can but once he gets past the first line, even though he’s so gifted as a passer he struggles against help D at times, and isn’t thaaat good of a finisher when he faced help.

KD I mean is a god, but obviously we haven’t seen him succeed outside of the warriors in the playoffs where defenses game plan more to the same extent he did there so we should see if he goes back to oof mode or if it act was him evolving his game

\
I mean, if you're saying jordan goes from the clear cut, by a landslide best scorer of the 90's to merely "one of the best scorers today", isn't that a massive downgrade?

[freethedevil]

Spoiler:

Regarding the 80s/90s defenses being tougher to play against than todays, here's the argument I see for both sides:

For. The lanes were clearly more congested. Spacing concepts existed but personel limited their usefulness. Moreover, there were fewer excellent shooters, thus making passing out less favorable. Even when teams fielded multiple shooters, it was less accepted to look for open threes. Crashing the offensive boards was more common and made it harder to manufacture drives late in the shot clock when the offensive bigs would move towards the glass.

Against. Help rotations are sharper now. In the 90s, it was much more common for all the weakside defenders to have their heads turned on a drive, and none would rotate. Or too many defenders would rotate leaving open easy passing windows. The best modern defenses move as one and anticipate the play more than in the past. While outside shooting was less potent, it's all relative, and Paxson shooting an open long two was a win for the offense. There are more defenders with ideal physical measurements for defending larger guards.

I think there's clear ways in which the game has become both easier and harder. Put Jordan on a team with three good shooters and I have no doubt that he's even more individually successful offensively. Put him on a lineup with one good shooter and it might actually get harder because I think his typical playoff defender is going to match up better and the opposing rotations will happen faster. Which defensive era was harder seems like an annual debate but I'm not sure there's a better answer than "it depends".

Only problem with you -for-- is that we have seen for players like giannis and lebron that "the lanes being cntested were entirely ineffective with giannis even when the bucks shot worse than their opponent. You know when giannis struggled with or without shooting? When the defense collapses and hedges before he can start driving.

The equivalency is false. Jordan is not going ot be induvdiually better with or without shooters if the defense defends him like giannis. Hedging means you can block off easy passing reads, go look at lebron vs the magic or the celtics. The only thing that was "clogged" in the 90's was the space near the basket, and guess what, if you're big, make good decisions and have momentum that's not stopping you anyway.

So why don't we stop acting like 6'6 micheal jordan was somehow robbed in an era where he could simulate much bigger and stonger players who happen to pass a lot better.

I think that LeBron in a lineup with Smith, Korver, and Love will generate offense more easily than if he's next to a bunch of non-shooters. There may be rare exceptions but for the most part I think this is clearly true. That doesn't mean the offense as a whole is better but his attacks on the basket will be harder to stop without either giving up an unacceptably good shot for him or a teammate. I don't know if your last sentence is general commentary our directed at me, but if it is in response to what I wrote, then I think we are talking past each other.

I'm responding to your "for" section.

The spacing gap doesn't really matter here because, as we can see with all the clips, gifs, and possessions being tracked on this thread, the defenses were basically playing slashers 1 on 1 up until they reached the paint as opposed to now where slashers like lebron/giannis will have multiple defendes keying in on them before they've crossed the thee point line. If you're playing 1 on 1, then unless you have awful handles or can't make good reads, the disadvtage of not being able to space the floor doesn't matter so much .Especially when you're dealing with all time great passers who can find plenty of other good looks.

Re: Spacing.

Lebron in the 15 playoffs was able to anchor a +5.5 postseason offense basically by himself(kyrie missed half the postseason, love missed basically all of it) despite having basically no spacing.

Lebron had arguably his third best postseason in 2012 despite the heat having atrocious spacing.

Giannis's best offensive series came in a series where his team was getting outshot from three by 5%.

While spacing wasn't completely diminished, Lebron's nost prodctive series(and one where his team's offense was basiclaly was unaffected by a -4.5 defense), came with his team shooting 30%.

I think when peple bring up spacing, they're confusing the chicken for the egg. It's not that these players need spacing to get to the rim, they need spacing to get to the rim...when defenses are doing everything possible to stop them from driving.

The major difference between the defenses jordan is facing and freight trains like lebron and giannis are facing is that the former are only trying to stop jordan from "scoring", the latter defenses are trying to stop lebron and giannis from even driving in the first place.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Idk why we are talking about defense today vs back then


So essentially I do think it’s a mixed bag.

As a whole, I’d agree it’s easier to score today than in the 90s, illegal D rules though were somewhat of an equalizer, we see effeciency drop when they were first introduced in 98, more importantly we see the effeciency of superstar wings plummet for mid 90s vs early 2000s

Now this led to more two man game, and eventually after a few teams incorporated what the doc (thibs) Celtics were doing more spacing, and for sure certain players benefit an extreme amount from this


As a whole I’d say it’s easier to score now than vs the 90s. But it’s not as ridiculous of a difference as people like to say, a lot of players back then would be more efficient today but some probably wouldn’t see a big boost, iirc (this year kinda wilding) most other years comparing effeciency of the top scorers there’s a clear gap but not by as much as you’d think


I do think mid 2000s iso wings, maybe a few other eras like 70s wings maybe? are really unlucky in this type of comparison when using raw effeciency, but using RTS just turns the problem the other way.

As a whole a guy like Jordan would probably be among the best scorers today. I don’t agree you could just wall him off because he had such a great post game and in between game. One thing also is that he’s someone that could use angles well, and honestly if you relook at him from how explosive he was in “compromising” positions it’s kind of absurd

The reason I say “among” is because KD and Harden are in that category as well. Harden I feel no one can break someone down as well as he can but once he gets past the first line, even though he’s so gifted as a passer he struggles against help D at times, and isn’t thaaat good of a finisher when he faced help.

KD I mean is a god, but obviously we haven’t seen him succeed outside of the warriors in the playoffs where defenses game plan more to the same extent he did there so we should see if he goes back to oof mode or if it act was him evolving his game

\
I mean, if you're saying jordan goes from the clear cut, by a landslide best scorer of the 90's to merely "one of the best scorers today", isn't that a massive downgrade?

I think KD would be the best scorer in the 90s if he replaced Jordan, it’s more so the top end talent today vs before

[70sFan]

Huh? Shooting 45-50% from the midrange is not goign to compensate for getting a bunch of 66%-70% shots at the rim shaved off.

No, it wouldn't, but it wouldn't make Jordan-led offense inefficient either. You can't just give Jordan space to shoot midrange, he'd kill you for that,

Nt to mention all those kickouts Why woudln't defenses defend him like giannis? Why would they pass up trading 2's at the rim for jordan trying to shoot a bunch of midrangers? If jordan drops from lebron or kareem level scoring production to kd level production, that is a massive win for the defense.

It's easier to say than done though. Jordan was excellent off-ball player who doesn't need the ball in his hands to create open looks for himself. That's what made him much harder to stop than Giannis, who is useless without the ball offensively.

Again it being "clogged" is moot because the defense waits way longer to do something. Take a look at the possessoins that have been tracked or even the gifs colt is using. Only one of those defenders "clogging the lane" is actually doing anything wth jordan until he's already at the paint. Moreover there are open players jordan's passing up where the reads are easy to make.

You don't give full picture though. Teams didn't space the floor back then, Giannis wouldn't have enough space to operate - not only because of defenders but because of his teammates also.

By the way, illegal defense didn't exist back in the 1970s and quoted part of my post is about 1970s, not 1990s.

Was referring to Lebron. I don't think Giannis is a better passer than jordan but I don't think the gap is anything signficant. Jordan is a better techinal and more creative passer, but Giannis's passes have more velocity and his size is a signifcant advantage(gives him a better range of angles).

Fair enough, James is much better passer than Jordan.

Kooking at the 88-91 playoffs, the reads are just alot easier back then than now.

I know this argument, but I don't think I agree. On one hand, defenses have more freedom today, which cut down the easiest openings - here I agree with you.

On the other hand, lack of spacing made high reward passes much more rare and required bigger passing talent. Today a lot of players can create as much open looks as peak Magic with right system, but it doesn't mean that they are even close to Magic as a passer and decision maker.

Jordan's post and midange is still suffecient to make him a better offensive player, but the gap i think gets signficantly reduced with jordan being turned into kd as far as scoring goes. Enough so that Giannis probably tops jordan on his far better defense( and jordan's going to have a tougher time defensively too with high iq floor generals like lebron, chris paul, draymond, jokic, ect, thee to pick on him when he gambles.

I don't think you can turn Jordan into KD, Jordan is much more dynamic offensive player. No zones or soft doubles would change that.
I agree that Giannis is better defender, but I don't think Jordan would be significantly worse defensively today. His gambling was limited by illegal defense rules, without it he could be more impactful playing as a weakside and help defender.

Jordan's era was full of excellent playmakers - including the best playmaker ever - so I don't think playing against Paul or Draymond would make him worse player.

Now if you think jordan could become a 40% shooter this gets off-set, but given ben's shooting form analysis it seems more likely jordan would be an averag e three poin tshooter than a great one.

I don't think Jordan would be 40% three point shooter, I agree that his mechanics had some limitations. At the same time, I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Jordan would peak at around 37-39% from three (he actually did that in 1993). James himself always had problems with his shooting form, but he worked on it long enough to be semi-consistent shooter.

Even if Jordan would be 35-36% shooter at his peak, this is still massive advanatge over Giannis. Efficiency isn't everything - Jordan can create shots off the dribble at will - Giannis can't do that. Even if Jordan would never reach elite efficiency from three point line, teams would never leave him open on purpose.

[70sFan]

Idk why we are talking about defense today vs back then


So essentially I do think it’s a mixed bag.

As a whole, I’d agree it’s easier to score today than in the 90s, illegal D rules though were somewhat of an equalizer, we see effeciency drop when they were first introduced in 98, more importantly we see the effeciency of superstar wings plummet for mid 90s vs early 2000s

Now this led to more two man game, and eventually after a few teams incorporated what the doc (thibs) Celtics were doing more spacing, and for sure certain players benefit an extreme amount from this


As a whole I’d say it’s easier to score now than vs the 90s. But it’s not as ridiculous of a difference as people like to say, a lot of players back then would be more efficient today but some probably wouldn’t see a big boost, iirc (this year kinda wilding) most other years comparing effeciency of the top scorers there’s a clear gap but not by as much as you’d think


I do think mid 2000s iso wings, maybe a few other eras like 70s wings maybe? are really unlucky in this type of comparison when using raw effeciency, but using RTS just turns the problem the other way.

As a whole a guy like Jordan would probably be among the best scorers today. I don’t agree you could just wall him off because he had such a great post game and in between game. One thing also is that he’s someone that could use angles well, and honestly if you relook at him from how explosive he was in “compromising” positions it’s kind of absurd

The reason I say “among” is because KD and Harden are in that category as well. Harden I feel no one can break someone down as well as he can but once he gets past the first line, even though he’s so gifted as a passer he struggles against help D at times, and isn’t thaaat good of a finisher when he faced help.

KD I mean is a god, but obviously we haven’t seen him succeed outside of the warriors in the playoffs where defenses game plan more to the same extent he did there so we should see if he goes back to oof mode or if it act was him evolving his game

\
I mean, if you're saying jordan goes from the clear cut, by a landslide best scorer of the 90's to merely "one of the best scorers today", isn't that a massive downgrade?

I think KD would be the best scorer in the 90s if he replaced Jordan, it’s more so the top end talent today vs before

I'd still trust Shaq and Hakeem more in postseason than KD without all-star team on his side.

[No-more-rings]

KD would definitely NOT be a better scorer than Jordan in the 90s lol.

[MyUniBroDavis]

KD would definitely NOT be a better scorer than Jordan in the 90s lol.

“If he REPLACED Jordan”

I didn’t say he’d be better lmao

[MyUniBroDavis]

\
I mean, if you're saying jordan goes from the clear cut, by a landslide best scorer of the 90's to merely "one of the best scorers today", isn't that a massive downgrade?

I think KD would be the best scorer in the 90s if he replaced Jordan, it’s more so the top end talent today vs before

I'd still trust Shaq and Hakeem more in postseason than KD without all-star team on his side.

I mean it kind of comes down to how much of his better play was his teammates drawing more attention vs his improvement

One of the big things is he essentially became the GOAT midrange when he was on the warriors and how much of that is situation vs improvement

[70sFan]

I think KD would be the best scorer in the 90s if he replaced Jordan, it’s more so the top end talent today vs before

I'd still trust Shaq and Hakeem more in postseason than KD without all-star team on his side.

I mean it kind of comes down to how much of his better play was his teammates drawing more attention vs his improvement

One of the big things is he essentially became the GOAT midrange when he was on the warriors and how much of that is situation vs improvement

He posted the same midrange numbers in his last OKC season, I don't think that made him GOAT scorer. Hakeem (let alone Shaq) posted comparable scoring stats in playoffs to OKC Durant while being harder to gameplan against.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'd still trust Shaq and Hakeem more in postseason than KD without all-star team on his side.

I mean it kind of comes down to how much of his better play was his teammates drawing more attention vs his improvement

One of the big things is he essentially became the GOAT midrange when he was on the warriors and how much of that is situation vs improvement

He posted the same midrange numbers in his last OKC season, I don't think that made him GOAT scorer. Hakeem (let alone Shaq) posted comparable scoring stats in playoffs to OKC Durant while being harder to gameplan against.

We see his midrange efficiencies drop in the playoffs though, and at least from a playoff perspective his effeciency in long middies have gotten better and more stable

I mean I think it’s fair to say that maybe durants gotten better in ways that make him bette run the playoffs, even if it’s literally just experience vs different coverages

Maybe it was just the team around him too, I didn’t watch the warriors closely enough to say if he fixed his problems vs doubles or it was they just couldn’t period

Otoh, it’s at least fair to entertain the possibility he’s improved in that regard. Like in theory durants probably the one of the hardest scorers ever to game plan against period based off skillset, other than basic stuff like being physical and that stuff, but he just struggled against ball pressure and help earlier on

I didn’t say he’s the GOAT scorer but I think if you assume that he could do what he did on the warriors in a normal team, which isn’t something I assume, then obviously he’s in the conversation. Had he scored like he did on a normal team it would have been basically the most efficient scoring run ever or something like that

Obviously he did it on an overpowered team that probably inflated his effeciency though, and it’s not as if you can double off of harden or kyrie now either

I’d put Jordan above him and harden come playoff time as scorers though, above harden for obvious reasons above Durant because I do think alotnof it was his team

[No-more-rings]

KD would definitely NOT be a better scorer than Jordan in the 90s lol.

“If he REPLACED Jordan”

I didn’t say he’d be better lmao

Oh, my bad. I'd probably agree if you're talking about the decade as a whole, but i don't think he'd necessarily be the year in year out best scorer, Barkley would be major competition early in the 90s, also some like Karl Malone, Drob, Hakeem and Shaq would come into play as well. It depends how much you trust KD's scoring in the playoffs, more physicality would be allowed back then and there's a packed paint. KD never had a great post game and he doesn't like being pushed around so i don't know. I'd probably take Barkley's prime over his back then which went up to 93 or 94 i guess. After that he's likely ahead of those other guys with Shaq being highly debatable.

As for Jordan today, i can't help but think he'd still be the best scorer given postseason resilience. Not clear cut like he was back then, but I'd trust his postseason scoring over KD's when KD's not on a super stacked cast, and Harden has dipped quite a few times in the playoffs.

[freethedevil]

Huh? Shooting 45-50% from the midrange is not goign to compensate for getting a bunch of 66%-70% shots at the rim shaved off.

No, it wouldn't, but it wouldn't make Jordan-led offense inefficient either. You can't just give Jordan space to shoot midrange, he'd kill you for that,
Yeah he'd still be a great offesnive engine.

Nt to mention all those kickouts Why woudln't defenses defend him like giannis? Why would they pass up trading 2's at the rim for jordan trying to shoot a bunch of midrangers? If jordan drops from lebron or kareem level scoring production to kd level production, that is a massive win for the defense.

It's easier to say than done though. Jordan was excellent off-ball player who doesn't need the ball in his hands to create open looks for himself. That's what made him much harder to stop than Giannis, who is useless without the ball offensively.
Fair. This is somewhat offset, though not completely, by giannis having more rim gravity.

Again it being "clogged" is moot because the defense waits way longer to do something. Take a look at the possessoins that have been tracked or even the gifs colt is using. Only one of those defenders "clogging the lane" is actually doing anything wth jordan until he's already at the paint. Moreover there are open players jordan's passing up where the reads are easy to make.

You don't give full picture though. Teams didn't space the floor back then, Giannis wouldn't have enough space to operate - not only because of defenders but because of his teammates also.
Don't think giannis needs as much space to maunever as you're suggesting he does, he's extremely agile and the simpler handler probably cuts down the chance of him getting stripped. What giannis needs is get mementum downhill, which he would have plenty of in the 90's.
By the way, illegal defense didn't exist back in the 1970s and quoted part of my post is about 1970s, not 1990s.
Fair enough.

Was referring to Lebron. I don't think Giannis is a better passer than jordan but I don't think the gap is anything signficant. Jordan is a better techinal and more creative passer, but Giannis's passes have more velocity and his size is a signifcant advantage(gives him a better range of angles).

Fair enough, James is much better passer than Jordan.

Kooking at the 88-91 playoffs, the reads are just alot easier back then than now.

I know this argument, but I don't think I agree. On one hand, defenses have more freedom today, which cut down the easiest openings - here I agree with you.

On the other hand, lack of spacing made high reward passes much more rare and required bigger passing talent. Today a lot of players can create as much open looks as peak Magic with right system, but it doesn't mean that they are even close to Magic as a passer and decision maker.
Fair. I'd agree that layup passes are probably harder. But I think kickouts are easier with the defense backtracking so much. And while the former might hurt an all time-passer like steve nash, I don't think merely 'good' passers are significantly affected by this. Players who can reliably find ahrd reads would have a harder time plamaking, but players who miss those reads aren't affected as much and end up benefitting from there being more space to find shooters for long 2's since the defense is taking longer to cover those reads.

Jordan's post and midange is still suffecient to make him a better offensive player, but the gap i think gets signficantly reduced with jordan being turned into kd as far as scoring goes. Enough so that Giannis probably tops jordan on his far better defense( and jordan's going to have a tougher time defensively too with high iq floor generals like lebron, chris paul, draymond, jokic, ect, thee to pick on him when he gambles.

I don't think you can turn Jordan into KD, Jordan is much more dynamic offensive player. No zones or soft doubles would change that.
Was just talking scoring, overall he'd definitely be better because of passing and off-ball game. Overall offensively I'd see him as a more dynamic durant but a less effective curry.
I agree that Giannis is better defender, but I don't think Jordan would be significantly worse defensively today. His gambling was limited by illegal defense rules, without it he could be more impactful playing as a weakside and help defender.
fair point.
Jordan's era was full of excellent playmakers - including the best playmaker ever - so I don't think playing against Paul or Draymond would make him worse player.
I mean he did badly against magic defensively, so I don't think that really supports that Jordan wouldn't have a matchup issue with savant-like floor generals. And yeah, I don't think isiah or stockton are really comprable to chris paul, lebron, or draymond in terms of iq.

Now if you think jordan could become a 40% shooter this gets off-set, but given ben's shooting form analysis it seems more likely jordan would be an averag e three poin tshooter than a great one.

I don't think Jordan would be 40% three point shooter, I agree that his mechanics had some limitations. At the same time, I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Jordan would peak at around 37-39% from three (he actually did that in 1993). James himself always had problems with his shooting form, but he worked on it long enough to be semi-consistent shooter.

Even if Jordan would be 35-36% shooter at his peak, this is still massive advanatge over Giannis. Efficiency isn't everything - Jordan can create shots off the dribble at will - Giannis can't do that. Even if Jordan would never reach elite efficiency from three point line, teams would never leave him open on purpose

Yeah, again, I think tis somewhat off-set by it taking more to stop giannis from reaching the rim, but overall jordan should still be a signicantly better attacker.

He'd probably be like curry, significantly less effective offensively, but, thanks in part to the freedom to help/roam, a signifcantly more effective defender though there are mathcups where jordan wouldn't hold up too well and he'd probably not hide himself like he should..