1988 Bird vs 2020 LeBron

[70sFan]

Huh? Shooting 45-50% from the midrange is not goign to compensate for getting a bunch of 66%-70% shots at the rim shaved off.

No, it wouldn't, but it wouldn't make Jordan-led offense inefficient either. You can't just give Jordan space to shoot midrange, he'd kill you for that,
Yeah he'd still be a great offesnive engine.

Nt to mention all those kickouts Why woudln't defenses defend him like giannis? Why would they pass up trading 2's at the rim for jordan trying to shoot a bunch of midrangers? If jordan drops from lebron or kareem level scoring production to kd level production, that is a massive win for the defense.

It's easier to say than done though. Jordan was excellent off-ball player who doesn't need the ball in his hands to create open looks for himself. That's what made him much harder to stop than Giannis, who is useless without the ball offensively.
Fair. This is somewhat offset, though not completely, by giannis having more rim gravity.

Again it being "clogged" is moot because the defense waits way longer to do something. Take a look at the possessoins that have been tracked or even the gifs colt is using. Only one of those defenders "clogging the lane" is actually doing anything wth jordan until he's already at the paint. Moreover there are open players jordan's passing up where the reads are easy to make.

You don't give full picture though. Teams didn't space the floor back then, Giannis wouldn't have enough space to operate - not only because of defenders but because of his teammates also.
Don't think giannis needs as much space to maunever as you're suggesting he does, he's extremely agile and the simpler handler probably cuts down the chance of him getting stripped. What giannis needs is get mementum downhill, which he would have plenty of in the 90's.
By the way, illegal defense didn't exist back in the 1970s and quoted part of my post is about 1970s, not 1990s.
Fair enough.

Was referring to Lebron. I don't think Giannis is a better passer than jordan but I don't think the gap is anything signficant. Jordan is a better techinal and more creative passer, but Giannis's passes have more velocity and his size is a signifcant advantage(gives him a better range of angles).

Fair enough, James is much better passer than Jordan.

Kooking at the 88-91 playoffs, the reads are just alot easier back then than now.

I know this argument, but I don't think I agree. On one hand, defenses have more freedom today, which cut down the easiest openings - here I agree with you.

On the other hand, lack of spacing made high reward passes much more rare and required bigger passing talent. Today a lot of players can create as much open looks as peak Magic with right system, but it doesn't mean that they are even close to Magic as a passer and decision maker.
Fair. I'd agree that layup passes are probably harder. But I think kickouts are easier with the defense backtracking so much. And while the former might hurt an all time-passer like steve nash, I don't think merely 'good' passers are significantly affected by this. Players who can reliably find ahrd reads would have a harder time plamaking, but players who miss those reads aren't affected as much and end up benefitting from there being more space to find shooters for long 2's since the defense is taking longer to cover those reads.

Jordan's post and midange is still suffecient to make him a better offensive player, but the gap i think gets signficantly reduced with jordan being turned into kd as far as scoring goes. Enough so that Giannis probably tops jordan on his far better defense( and jordan's going to have a tougher time defensively too with high iq floor generals like lebron, chris paul, draymond, jokic, ect, thee to pick on him when he gambles.

I don't think you can turn Jordan into KD, Jordan is much more dynamic offensive player. No zones or soft doubles would change that.
Was just talking scoring, overall he'd definitely be better because of passing and off-ball game. Overall offensively I'd see him as a more dynamic durant but a less effective curry.
I agree that Giannis is better defender, but I don't think Jordan would be significantly worse defensively today. His gambling was limited by illegal defense rules, without it he could be more impactful playing as a weakside and help defender.
fair point.
Jordan's era was full of excellent playmakers - including the best playmaker ever - so I don't think playing against Paul or Draymond would make him worse player.
I mean he did badly against magic defensively, so I don't think that really supports that Jordan wouldn't have a matchup issue with savant-like floor generals. And yeah, I don't think isiah or stockton are really comprable to chris paul, lebron, or draymond in terms of iq.

Now if you think jordan could become a 40% shooter this gets off-set, but given ben's shooting form analysis it seems more likely jordan would be an averag e three poin tshooter than a great one.

I don't think Jordan would be 40% three point shooter, I agree that his mechanics had some limitations. At the same time, I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Jordan would peak at around 37-39% from three (he actually did that in 1993). James himself always had problems with his shooting form, but he worked on it long enough to be semi-consistent shooter.

Even if Jordan would be 35-36% shooter at his peak, this is still massive advanatge over Giannis. Efficiency isn't everything - Jordan can create shots off the dribble at will - Giannis can't do that. Even if Jordan would never reach elite efficiency from three point line, teams would never leave him open on purpose

Yeah, again, I think tis somewhat off-set by it taking more to stop giannis from reaching the rim, but overall jordan should still be a signicantly better attacker.

He'd probably be like curry, significantly less effective offensively, but, thanks in part to the freedom to help/roam, a signifcantly more effective defender though there are mathcups where jordan wouldn't hold up too well and he'd probably not hide himself like he should..

I think I agree with most things you said in this reply. Again - much better defensive version of Curry (impact-wise, not style-wise) is a monster player. Curry is among the best offensive players ever after all.

I still prefer two-way monsters with resiliant postseason offenses over both Giannis and Jordan/Curry.

[PistolPeteJR]

Like in every James thread, his opponent is disrespected. Sure, 1988 Bird is clearly inferior to 2020 James when we take playoffs into account and sure, James peaked clearly higher than Bird.

It doesn't mean that Bird wasn't a good shooter, or that he couldn't handle the ball, or that he was weaker than Curry (this one is funny).

Taylor made a fantastic peak series where he broke down Bird's game brilliantly and he does think that Larry is among the best offensive players ever. You don't have to play like James/Harden/Doncic to be GOAT candidate on offense. Bird didn't have to handle the ball, he did so much more on that end.

I'm saying this as someone who is more critical about Bird than most of oldschool fans. I don't have him inside my top 10, but that doesn't mean that he's worse than KD.

No one's disrespecting Bird though? Unless I missed the odd post in this thread?

All I'm seeing is a debate between Bird and James, and stuff like, "Bird isn't a 6'9" Curry when it comes to shooting", which is true.

[MyUniBroDavis]

KD would definitely NOT be a better scorer than Jordan in the 90s lol.

“If he REPLACED Jordan”

I didn’t say he’d be better lmao

Oh, my bad. I'd probably agree if you're talking about the decade as a whole, but i don't think he'd necessarily be the year in year out best scorer, Barkley would be major competition early in the 90s, also some like Karl Malone, Drob, Hakeem and Shaq would come into play as well. It depends how much you trust KD's scoring in the playoffs, more physicality would be allowed back then and there's a packed paint. KD never had a great post game and he doesn't like being pushed around so i don't know. I'd probably take Barkley's prime over his back then which went up to 93 or 94 i guess. After that he's likely ahead of those other guys with Shaq being highly debatable.

As for Jordan today, i can't help but think he'd still be the best scorer given postseason resilience. Not clear cut like he was back then, but I'd trust his postseason scoring over KD's when KD's not on a super stacked cast, and Harden has dipped quite a few times in the playoffs.

Ehh, KDs post games definately gotten better over the years, at least in raw effeciency its act a bit better than kawhis although I agree more people can trouble him in the post with physicality.

I’m more so talking about overall but it kind of depends on if you think he’s grown during his Golden state years. I’m assuming his Playoff scoring stats the same about since it’s improved the past few years

If you see a big drop then def he’s not the best. I do think when comparing him to wings of the time that were really strong scorers, I could see him being in that best scorer type energy, particularly if he maintains it in the playoffs

As for today, I should mention im mostly talking about wings. Compared strictly to wings in volume scoring, purely statistically I think in effeciency durants probably better relative to his high scoring wing peers, but Jordan’s obviously the leading scorer every single year.

Durants game probably translates well though, given his like arguably GOAT midrange and he’s thing is being uncontestable. He struggled more with physicality but I feel he’d adjust if he grew up in that era like Jordan would get a passable three point shot if he grew up now


I do think postseason resilience is a reason to take Jordan over durant, and I def wanna see what Durant does in the playoffs before I take him in that level.

Over the course of a whole year Jordan’s probably the best scorer, although in terms of a playoff run Lebrons obviously kind of been record breaking too in the last few runs.

[freethedevil]

No, it wouldn't, but it wouldn't make Jordan-led offense inefficient either. You can't just give Jordan space to shoot midrange, he'd kill you for that,
Yeah he'd still be a great offesnive engine.

It's easier to say than done though. Jordan was excellent off-ball player who doesn't need the ball in his hands to create open looks for himself. That's what made him much harder to stop than Giannis, who is useless without the ball offensively.
Fair. This is somewhat offset, though not completely, by giannis having more rim gravity.

You don't give full picture though. Teams didn't space the floor back then, Giannis wouldn't have enough space to operate - not only because of defenders but because of his teammates also.
Don't think giannis needs as much space to maunever as you're suggesting he does, he's extremely agile and the simpler handler probably cuts down the chance of him getting stripped. What giannis needs is get mementum downhill, which he would have plenty of in the 90's.
By the way, illegal defense didn't exist back in the 1970s and quoted part of my post is about 1970s, not 1990s.
Fair enough.


Fair enough, James is much better passer than Jordan.


I know this argument, but I don't think I agree. On one hand, defenses have more freedom today, which cut down the easiest openings - here I agree with you.

On the other hand, lack of spacing made high reward passes much more rare and required bigger passing talent. Today a lot of players can create as much open looks as peak Magic with right system, but it doesn't mean that they are even close to Magic as a passer and decision maker.
Fair. I'd agree that layup passes are probably harder. But I think kickouts are easier with the defense backtracking so much. And while the former might hurt an all time-passer like steve nash, I don't think merely 'good' passers are significantly affected by this. Players who can reliably find ahrd reads would have a harder time plamaking, but players who miss those reads aren't affected as much and end up benefitting from there being more space to find shooters for long 2's since the defense is taking longer to cover those reads.

I don't think you can turn Jordan into KD, Jordan is much more dynamic offensive player. No zones or soft doubles would change that.
Was just talking scoring, overall he'd definitely be better because of passing and off-ball game. Overall offensively I'd see him as a more dynamic durant but a less effective curry.
I agree that Giannis is better defender, but I don't think Jordan would be significantly worse defensively today. His gambling was limited by illegal defense rules, without it he could be more impactful playing as a weakside and help defender.
fair point.
Jordan's era was full of excellent playmakers - including the best playmaker ever - so I don't think playing against Paul or Draymond would make him worse player.
I mean he did badly against magic defensively, so I don't think that really supports that Jordan wouldn't have a matchup issue with savant-like floor generals. And yeah, I don't think isiah or stockton are really comprable to chris paul, lebron, or draymond in terms of iq.


I don't think Jordan would be 40% three point shooter, I agree that his mechanics had some limitations. At the same time, I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Jordan would peak at around 37-39% from three (he actually did that in 1993). James himself always had problems with his shooting form, but he worked on it long enough to be semi-consistent shooter.

Even if Jordan would be 35-36% shooter at his peak, this is still massive advanatge over Giannis. Efficiency isn't everything - Jordan can create shots off the dribble at will - Giannis can't do that. Even if Jordan would never reach elite efficiency from three point line, teams would never leave him open on purpose

Yeah, again, I think tis somewhat off-set by it taking more to stop giannis from reaching the rim, but overall jordan should still be a signicantly better attacker.

He'd probably be like curry, significantly less effective offensively, but, thanks in part to the freedom to help/roam, a signifcantly more effective defender though there are mathcups where jordan wouldn't hold up too well and he'd probably not hide himself like he should..

I think I agree with most things you said in this reply. Again - much better defensive version of Curry (impact-wise, not style-wise) is a monster player. Curry is among the best offensive players ever after all.

I still prefer two-way monsters with resiliant postseason offenses over both Giannis and Jordan/Curry.

Well for older players that leaves us with wilt, kareem and hakeem.(well wilt pretty easily made up for the offense drop off with defensive elevation as evidenced by his team repeadly matching russell's in the playoffs despite being signifcantly outgunned)

Hakeem has the tools to be a much more resiient version of giannis in terms of scoring and better defensively, though I think he would be held back by his passing since defenses take away kickouts better now.

Wilt loses something defensively, but, if we look past the handle, his offense should be fine though I imagine he loses something facing taller perimiter defenders.

Kareem also probably has a hard time defensively, but I can see his offense holding up well, being something of a --bigger jokic-- whith more emphasis on scoring and signifcanly better defense or maybe just a better more dynamic kevin durant.

You can throw walton in there but his offense is kind of ****.

[70sFan]

Well for older players that leaves us with wilt, kareem and hakeem.(well wilt pretty easily made up for the offense drop off with defensive elevation as evidenced by his team repeadly matching russell's in the playoffs despite being signifcantly outgunned)

I'd add Duncan to this list.

Hakeem has the tools to be a much more resiient version of giannis in terms of scoring and better defensively, though I think he would be held back by his passing since defenses take away kickouts better now.

Hakeem indeed struggled with more advanced reads. I've been watching him recently and making notes off his passing and shooting selection. I think he would still do better than Giannis though, because of his more versatile scoring skillset (he probably had the best fadeaway to the baseline from the low post in NBA history, it was extremely efficient for such a tough shot).

Wilt loses something defensively, but, if we look past the handle, his offense should be fine though I imagine he loses something facing taller perimiter defenders.

I don't think Wilt would lose much on defense to be honest, but he'd probabaly lose some value. His offense would be definitely fine.

Kareem also probably has a hard time defensively, but I can see his offense holding up well, being something of a --bigger jokic-- whith more emphasis on scoring and signifcanly better defense or maybe just a better more dynamic kevin durant.

Kareem was very mobile when he was young, I could see him being Gobert-esque if he got focused on that end. Effort could be problematic though.

You can throw walton in there but his offense is kind of ****.

I mean, Walton could play like a worse shooting version of Jokic and with his defense it should be enough to consider him.

[Djoker]

I skimmed through the debate here and would like to give my two cents.

First of all let's get it straight that Jordan was significantly ahead of KD as an offensive force relative to their own eras. Let's takee Warriors KD as peak KD and just ignore the spacing that Curry/Klay etc. created for him and compare him to MJ at his peak. I also added the best offensive years of Lebron, Harden, and Curry so we can compare all the best offensive forces today.

Playoff Averages - 3-Year Offensive Peaks

1989-1991 Jordan - 34.1 ppg, 7.6 apg on 59.8 %TS (+6.2 rTS) with 3.3 topg
2017-2019 Durant - 29.6 ppg, 4.5 apg on 64.2 %TS (+8.6 rTS) with 2.7 topg

2016-2018 Lebron - 31.0 ppg, 8.2 apg on 61.8 %TS (+6.8 rTS) with 4.0 topg
2018-2020 Harden - 29.7 ppg, 7.0 apg on 57.7 %TS (+1.7 rTS) with 4.0 topg
2015-2017 Curry - 27.2 ppg, 6.1 apg on 62.1 %TS (+7.9 rTS) with 3.8 topg

A 4.5 ppg edge is pretty major and is the 3 apg edge. The slight efficiency edge for KD doesn't nearly make up for it. Jordan is in fact comfortably the best in his offensive production among all these players. This dispels the myth that today's analytics guys outperform MJ. None of them came that close to matching him let alone surpassing him. The same holds true if we broaden the analysis to 5-year and 10-year peaks.

Now let's get a little bit into MJ's skillset. He has one of the most ridiculous first steps in basketball, a GOAT-level midrange J. a ridiculous off-the-ball game where upon catching the ball at the elbow he can quickly destroy the defense with either a drive, a jumper, or another pass. He was so quick and decisive in his game like a hot knife going through hot butter. In today's league where guys aren't allowed to touch him he would absolutely feast and this type of MJ could probably average 15 FTA per game. Think Wade in the 2006 Finals. I don't know how teams would keep MJ off of the free throw line. The pressure he puts on the defense is just unparalleled. That's why guys like Ben Taylor have him with one of the highest creations ever because his teammates were always so wide open because of how big the threat of his scoring was.

How would MJ should 3's today? It doesn't matter. I don't know why people are fixated on it. MJ attacking the rim would do work for him. Imagine not being able to touch him? Come on... Anyone who thinks MJ would struggle today is completely misguided. Common sense doesn't support such views. If anything he would be better.

Defending him like Giannis would be a joke. MJ would simply work the post or just walk into a 20-foot J which he was simply money at or catch the ball with his back to the basket just turn and throw himself at the basket and get free throws. MJ wasn't athletic or more physical than Giannis but he was much more agile and able to change directions. And thanks to his post game he could start his move closer to the basket and play more off-ball in general. MJ is closer to a hyperathletic Kawhi than he is to Giannis. He would be absolutely scary to deal with.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I’m not saying KD was better relative to era, I said his effeciency was higher. Keep in mind using RTS is an unfair comparison for current eras because of what drives TS up.

That doesn’t mean his scoring numbers as a whole are better

[freethedevil]

Well for older players that leaves us with wilt, kareem and hakeem.(well wilt pretty easily made up for the offense drop off with defensive elevation as evidenced by his team repeadly matching russell's in the playoffs despite being signifcantly outgunned)

I'd add Duncan to this list.

Hakeem has the tools to be a much more resiient version of giannis in terms of scoring and better defensively, though I think he would be held back by his passing since defenses take away kickouts better now.

Hakeem indeed struggled with more advanced reads. I've been watching him recently and making notes off his passing and shooting selection. I think he would still do better than Giannis though, because of his more versatile scoring skillset (he probably had the best fadeaway to the baseline from the low post in NBA history, it was extremely efficient for such a tough shot).

Wilt loses something defensively, but, if we look past the handle, his offense should be fine though I imagine he loses something facing taller perimiter defenders.

I don't think Wilt would lose much on defense to be honest, but he'd probabaly lose some value. His offense would be definitely fine.

Kareem also probably has a hard time defensively, but I can see his offense holding up well, being something of a --bigger jokic-- whith more emphasis on scoring and signifcanly better defense or maybe just a better more dynamic kevin durant.

Kareem was very mobile when he was young, I could see him being Gobert-esque if he got focused on that end. Effort could be problematic though.

You can throw walton in there but his offense is kind of ****.

I mean, Walton could play like a worse shooting version of Jokic and with his defense it should be enough to consider him.

My issue with walton is the reads he made in the 70's aren't paticularly special or valuable today.

Also you're cheating with kareem here. Peak Kareem is 77, so if you're taking younger kareem you have to trade some of that offense away.

[Top10alltime]

2020 Lebron very easily. He's close to peak Jordan and that's a much much better comparison. Like a top 10 Lebron season vs top 1 Jordan season instead of any Larry Bird season.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think the only seasons from Bird with any argument over 2020 LeBron would be 84&86. People just can't quite come to terms with how good LeBron was that season because he was 35 imo. His best off/def season as a whole since 2013 then follows it up with a basically flawless title run.