2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[cgf]

He wasn't.

...you assume.

Do you know how much worse that looks if we did draft him for "upside"?

Stop trying to make it seem like Rose has a hidden agenda and is playing 4d chess. He took the kid he thought would be best right away, and it flopped. You don't draft a kid who turns 23 in his rookie year for "upside", you draft him cause you think he has the highest floor

People keep trying to retroactively make this about upside. Nobody ever said Obi has the highest upside and he'd be a developmental guy before we drafted him, or even after we drafted him but before the season started

Now we're retconning it because he looks so much more raw than we thought. Just say we were wrong about him having a high floor and move on.

Nice strawman, but no, nobody's trying to make the FO look like geniuses for this pick. I disliked it then & still dislike it...and anyone who thought he was going to be plug n play was obviously wrong, even without hindsight...but I don't see why I should assume that the FO was obsessed with his age as you are.

His being 22 doesn't mean he's the finished product or that he's already reached his potential, so why -- other than this organization's history of incompetence -- should I assume that those were the FO's reasons for picking him when a much simpler answer would be that they didn't care if he was raw because they thought that he would be better than the guys drafted right after him in his prime?

Which, if they did think that, isn't a good look now & wasn't a good look then. But it does make more sense than assuming they drafted a kid that they hadn't scouted.

[Reign23]

Even in the preseason he got tons of minutes and he sucked. He’s just not that good.

ok, then we should give up on him

I’m open to trading him for a upgrade at the guard positions. But I’m cool with developing him off the bench in a Montrezl Harrell role. He has a long way to go though.

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

[cgf]

ok, then we should give up on him

I’m open to trading him for a upgrade at the guard positions. But I’m cool with developing him off the bench in a Montrezl Harrell role. He has a long way to go though.

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

Why would his minutes go down as he strengthens his lower body and polishes his handle/shot? 15-20 minutes is plenty for a kid to develop in and Obi's only 3minutes a game away from that range now.

[cgf]

if we really get 2 high picks (I don't even get my hopes up btw)... god would thibs hate this

Right? If Thibs thought having 1 RJ on the team was bad, imagine if he had two more?

[3toheadmelo]

ok, then we should give up on him

I’m open to trading him for a upgrade at the guard positions. But I’m cool with developing him off the bench in a Montrezl Harrell role. He has a long way to go though.

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

I’m pretty sure Obi would get more minutes if he gets better

[Reign23]

I’m open to trading him for a upgrade at the guard positions. But I’m cool with developing him off the bench in a Montrezl Harrell role. He has a long way to go though.

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

Why would his minutes go down as he strengthens his lower body and polishes his handle/shot? 15-20 minutes is plenty for a kid to develop in and Obi's only 3minutes a game away from that range now.

if randle keeps up this good play, thibs will not play him less than 35 minutes a game and Obi only can play at the 4

[cgf]

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

Why would his minutes go down as he strengthens his lower body and polishes his handle/shot? 15-20 minutes is plenty for a kid to develop in and Obi's only 3minutes a game away from that range now.

if randle keeps up this good play, thibs will not play him less than 35 minutes a game and Obi only can play at the 4

RIght and Thibs will never play Quickley more than Elf. If Obi improves enough to take minutes away from Julius, Thibs will give them to him.

And he can only play the 4 now, but I see no reason he can't learn to do everything that Taj does to pick minutes up alongside Julius...like we've already seen Thibs experiment with... in the future

[knickstape4ever]

ok, then we should give up on him

I’m open to trading him for a upgrade at the guard positions. But I’m cool with developing him off the bench in a Montrezl Harrell role. He has a long way to go though.

nah I would trade him, if we keep Randle. He won't get more minutes and will not develop playing 10 minutes a game behind him. makes zero sense.

you make a good point b/c w/ Randle on the team, Obi has little-to-no role.

Unless a draft pick is playing well, their values are kinda like cars, once you purchase it (draft them), the value decreases

[knickstape4ever]

Front offices provide some type of rationale or feedback on why they chose their guy. I don't recall Leon Rose speaking on it at all (unless I'm missing something). Usually once they provide some insight, the media and fanbase can begin to figure out what their draft philosophy is. At this point, we're all shooting in the dark. We have no idea what they look for other than Kentucky/CAA connections. So regarding older prospects vs. 18 year olds, we still don't have much to go off.

Just going off the two picks, I'm assuming Rose leans heavily on college production over perceived upside

That would make sense with why we went Obi over guys like Haliburton and Deni, and if the rumor we wanted to go to 5 to grab Obi is true it meant we wanted him more than at least three of Okoro, Hayes, Williams, and Okongwu (because I think it was an open secret Ball, Wiseman, and Edwards were going top 3 in some order, so the only question would be what happened at 4), all of which are younger and arguably have more upside

So I would guess assuming the picks are in the 6-10 range that if things stay the way they are, Bouknight and Kispert will be pretty high on our board.

If we're in the 6-10 range my board is looking like this:

(Cade, Suggs, Mobley, Green, Kuminga gone)...

Jalen Johnson (questionable fit for us)
Bouknight
Moody
Ziaire
Kispert
Barnes (questionable fit for us)

I think right now if we landed 6, I'd go Bouknight b/c I can't see Jalen Johnson fitting well w/ this team

Ziaire is a close 2nd for me. I need to see more from him since he's been inconsistent and hasn't played in a bit

[sol537]

Sellers at the deadline; run the young guys and live with the results; Get 2 lotto picks, plus our 2 high second rounders. 4 new bodies into training camp plus 1 or 2 solid free agent signings (Gary Trent Jr?) and we'll take the next big step forward as a team. We also have to decide between Randle and Obi and deal the one that's not in our long-term plans.

[cgf]

Sellers at the deadline; run the young guys and live with the results; Get 2 lotto picks, plus our 2 high second rounders. 4 new bodies into training camp plus 1 or 2 solid free agent signings (Gary Trent Jr?) and we'll take the next big step forward as a team. We also have to decide between Randle and Obi and deal the one that's not in our long-term plans.

Not sure we need to rush that. If we enter the 2022/2023 season with both of them on the roster, that could be an issue if Obi can't play alongside Julius...but I don't see the rush to make that decision before we have a better idea of whether Julius will keep this up / how much better he could still get, as well as just how good Obi can become.

[HEZI]

I'm reading some terrible takes in here this morning.

• Cade is only excelling due to his size in college
• Suggs is only succeeding due to being at Gonzaga
• Moody has no handle
• Ziaire is better than Suggs

I guess we've reached that point where cats have said so much about prospects that now they're bored and gotta start reaching with their commentary.

Who do you like more between Moody and Bouknight?

[robillionaire]

thibs pretty much killed this thread, we will probably trade all the picks for a washed up vet before the draft happens anyway so don't get too invested this year

[cgf]

thibs pretty much killed this thread, we will probably trade all the picks for a washed up vet before the draft happens anyway so don't get too invested this year

[2010]

Just going off the two picks, I'm assuming Rose leans heavily on college production over perceived upside

That would make sense with why we went Obi over guys like Haliburton and Deni, and if the rumor we wanted to go to 5 to grab Obi is true it meant we wanted him more than at least three of Okoro, Hayes, Williams, and Okongwu (because I think it was an open secret Ball, Wiseman, and Edwards were going top 3 in some order, so the only question would be what happened at 4), all of which are younger and arguably have more upside

So I would guess assuming the picks are in the 6-10 range that if things stay the way they are, Bouknight and Kispert will be pretty high on our board.

If we're in the 6-10 range my board is looking like this:

(Cade, Suggs, Mobley, Green, Kuminga gone)...

Jalen Johnson (questionable fit for us)
Bouknight
Moody
Ziaire
Kispert
Barnes (questionable fit for us)

I think right now if we landed 6, I'd go Bouknight b/c I can't see Jalen Johnson fitting well w/ this team

Ziaire is a close 2nd for me. I need to see more from him since he's been inconsistent and hasn't played in a bit

As of today we'd have picks 6 and 10. If the draft were today I'd take Bouknight and Moody/Ziaire/Kispert with the other lottery pick.

Some have proposed trading to move up in this scenario. But iono, I may just stand pat, make my picks and select a PG with the 31st pick we got from Detroit. I'd go Giddey if he is there. Or Nix.

[robillionaire]

Imo I think our FO assumed Obi was gonna be a walking 20-10 but instead it looks like he’s a major project. Like Knox

if he got the minutes rookie Knox did I don't doubt he could be a walking 20-10, he just doesn't even get to play

Per 36, Obi vs rookie Knox:

Obi: 14/7/2 on 43/28/78 splits, .518 TS
Knox: 16/6/2 on 37/34/72 splits, .475 TS

per 36 stats are useless when you're expanding them out from 12 minutes a game and the player doesn't have a chance to get in rhythm or anything

with that said it's well documented that you dislike toppin so you don't have to respond to this with a diatribe about how bad he is because again your opinion about toppin has been noted

[2010]

I'm reading some terrible takes in here this morning.

• Cade is only excelling due to his size in college
• Suggs is only succeeding due to being at Gonzaga
• Moody has no handle
• Ziaire is better than Suggs

I guess we've reached that point where cats have said so much about prospects that now they're bored and gotta start reaching with their commentary.

Who do you like more between Moody and Bouknight?

Personally I think Moody is the safer bet. But I do acknowledge Bouknight's offensive talents as a 3 level scorer. Although I have questioned how he'd fit into a team concept offensively. He could end up being as dynamic as a Donovan Mitchell or possibly just a 6th man type. But he's worth the gamble at this point. So if the situation held as it is right now, I'd hope to get both.

6th Bouknight
10th Moody (gamble that he's still on the board)

[cgf]

If we're in the 6-10 range my board is looking like this:

(Cade, Suggs, Mobley, Green, Kuminga gone)...

Jalen Johnson (questionable fit for us)
Bouknight
Moody
Ziaire
Kispert
Barnes (questionable fit for us)

I think right now if we landed 6, I'd go Bouknight b/c I can't see Jalen Johnson fitting well w/ this team

Ziaire is a close 2nd for me. I need to see more from him since he's been inconsistent and hasn't played in a bit

As of today we'd have picks 6 and 10. If the draft were today I'd take Bouknight and Moody/Ziaire/Kispert with the other lottery pick.

Some have proposed trading to move up in this scenario. But iono, I may just stand pat, make my picks and select a PG with the 31st pick we got from Detroit. I'd go Giddey if he is there. Or Nix.

I wouldn't touch the lottery picks, but I would try to trade up from the Detroit pick for Jared Butler if we don't get Cade/Suggs. Between our SRPs, the future SRPs we could pick up if we're out of it by enough to sell at the deadline, and Knox; we have more than enough ammo to make that kind of move without it affecting our flexibility.

And a Butler-Quickley platoon should be a great fit alongside the playmaking we get from RJ, Julius/Obi, and our lotto picks, moving forward...though I would want to bring a vet like Hill in to help them for a season.

[HEZI]

I'm reading some terrible takes in here this morning.

• Cade is only excelling due to his size in college
• Suggs is only succeeding due to being at Gonzaga
• Moody has no handle
• Ziaire is better than Suggs

I guess we've reached that point where cats have said so much about prospects that now they're bored and gotta start reaching with their commentary.

Who do you like more between Moody and Bouknight?

Personally I think Moody is the safer bet. But I do acknowledge Bouknight's offensive talents as a 3 level scorer. Although I have questioned how he'd fit into a team concept offensively. He could end up being as dynamic as a Donovan Mitchell or possibly just a 6th man type. But he's worth the gamble at this point. So if the situation held as it is right now, I'd hope to get both.

6th Bouknight
10th Moody (gamble that he's still on the board)

Yeah I just wanted to know how you liked them as prospects in general. I have no idea what the Knicks will do but sitting with two picks in the 1st round and 2 in the 2nd I think it's safe to assume we will be active in trade talks and looking to make a move. Doubt we go into next year with 4 rookies but we'll see how that goes.

I was thinking how skinny Moody looks and how his body lacks any muscle tone or definition but then realized that he's still 18 so it's not that concerning as long as he commits to getting his body NBA ready eventually. But yea he definitely has more of a retro 2 guard type of game so to me that's pretty impressive given his age. Boukgnight plays more like a modern day explosive 2 guard so he might have the bigger potential and the higher ceiling but I'm with you I like both.

[knickstape4ever]

Sellers at the deadline; run the young guys and live with the results; Get 2 lotto picks, plus our 2 high second rounders. 4 new bodies into training camp plus 1 or 2 solid free agent signings (Gary Trent Jr?) and we'll take the next big step forward as a team. We also have to decide between Randle and Obi and deal the one that's not in our long-term plans.

my ideal scenario:

3 team trade:
Knicks get:
Kings 2021 1st, Celtics 2022 1st, Nemanja Bjelica, Jabari Parker, Romeo Langford

Kings get:
Julius Randle

Celtics get:
Marvin Bagley

3 lotto picks + 2 the 2nds. Gives them flexibility to potentially package the picks together to move into the top 4 if the lotto gods aren't on our side. wouldn't use all 5 picks, would probably trade 1 of the 2nds for a future 2nd, or use it on a draft-stash Euro player

would definitely target Gary Trent Jr., Duncan Robinson, THT too

also depending on how the lotto pans out maybe Lauri, Collins (tho don't like he's been busted for PED's), Graham. Collins is what I'd hoped Obi would be....and he's only a 6 months older

all these players are restricted, but we got so much $ and there are no stars available (Kawhi ain't coming and Dipo isn't a star IMO)