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2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#241 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 8:40 pm

nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:We aren’t getting Mobley, especially if we keep Beal. This is a .500ish level team with a competent coach. Brooks seems to be stumbling into some good rotations after trying literally everything else. Mobley is going 1st or 2nd overall.

I bet we finish in the 7-12 range.


I dunno. I agree that we can play better going forward, but a lot of the really bad teams are way better than expected (Cleveland, New York, OKC) and have built a pretty big lead over us. Meanwhile the other teams near the bottom alongside us are teams with a lot of talent and an ever greater chance than us of righting the ship and playing well in the second half: Miami, Dallas, New Orleans, Toronto.

Finally, don't underestimate the impact of our condensed schedule going forward. It's a condensed season already, but we have to squeeze in an extra 6 games. We are going to play a ton of B-2-B's and 3-in-4's. And if Beal ever goes down, it's over.

(We seem to be oddly dependent on Hachimura too. We're 5-6 when he plays, 0-7 without. If he gets hurt, we have no other natural PF on the roster.)

All that said, I'd certainly be in favor of moves to make us worse. They won't trade Beal, but trading Bertans for cap relief and a future 2nd might be wise.

Our schedule is a killer. Still, it'd dramatically improve our chances of getting a top 2 pick by trading Beal sooner than later.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#242 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 9:02 pm

Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:We aren’t getting Mobley, especially if we keep Beal. This is a .500ish level team with a competent coach. Brooks seems to be stumbling into some good rotations after trying literally everything else. Mobley is going 1st or 2nd overall.

I bet we finish in the 7-12 range.


I dunno. I agree that we can play better going forward, but a lot of the really bad teams are way better than expected (Cleveland, New York, OKC) and have built a pretty big lead over us. Meanwhile the other teams near the bottom alongside us are teams with a lot of talent and an ever greater chance than us of righting the ship and playing well in the second half: Miami, Dallas, New Orleans, Toronto.

Finally, don't underestimate the impact of our condensed schedule going forward. It's a condensed season already, but we have to squeeze in an extra 6 games. We are going to play a ton of B-2-B's and 3-in-4's. And if Beal ever goes down, it's over.

(We seem to be oddly dependent on Hachimura too. We're 5-6 when he plays, 0-7 without. If he gets hurt, we have no other natural PF on the roster.)

All that said, I'd certainly be in favor of moves to make us worse. They won't trade Beal, but trading Bertans for cap relief and a future 2nd might be wise.

Our schedule is a killer. Still, it'd dramatically improve our chances of getting a top 2 pick by trading Beal sooner than later.

I am now totally convinced that they have no intention whatsoever to trade Beal until this summer at the earliest. Whether or not that's wise is a different discussion, but that's what's going to happen.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#243 » by NatP4 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 9:19 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:
I dunno. I agree that we can play better going forward, but a lot of the really bad teams are way better than expected (Cleveland, New York, OKC) and have built a pretty big lead over us. Meanwhile the other teams near the bottom alongside us are teams with a lot of talent and an ever greater chance than us of righting the ship and playing well in the second half: Miami, Dallas, New Orleans, Toronto.

Finally, don't underestimate the impact of our condensed schedule going forward. It's a condensed season already, but we have to squeeze in an extra 6 games. We are going to play a ton of B-2-B's and 3-in-4's. And if Beal ever goes down, it's over.

(We seem to be oddly dependent on Hachimura too. We're 5-6 when he plays, 0-7 without. If he gets hurt, we have no other natural PF on the roster.)

All that said, I'd certainly be in favor of moves to make us worse. They won't trade Beal, but trading Bertans for cap relief and a future 2nd might be wise.

Our schedule is a killer. Still, it'd dramatically improve our chances of getting a top 2 pick by trading Beal sooner than later.

I am now totally convinced that they have no intention whatsoever to trade Beal until this summer at the earliest. Whether or not that's wise is a different discussion, but that's what's going to happen.


I am in the same boat. Pursuing a new GM/President of basketball operations, as well as, firing and replacing Scott Brooks will be the next buttons to press. I’m not actually convinced that it’s a bad plan of action. They need another blue chip talent of some kind though.

A typical wizards off-season would be something like replacing Brooks with Mike D’antoni or something, then falling in the 7-12 range and drafting the kid from Turkey for international marketing reasons. They also will flip Bonga for a future 2nd round pick and re sign Ish Smith.

If they hit the home run and get Masai, everything changes. That would be extremely exciting. Masai landed guys like Powell, Poetl, Siakam, Wright, Van Fleet, Anunoby, Faried, Fournier. I’m not sure if he finds talent like Webster, but he would transform this franchise.

Right now, I actually expect to keep Beal and land Masai. It makes too much sense.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#244 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 10:02 pm

NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Our schedule is a killer. Still, it'd dramatically improve our chances of getting a top 2 pick by trading Beal sooner than later.

I am now totally convinced that they have no intention whatsoever to trade Beal until this summer at the earliest. Whether or not that's wise is a different discussion, but that's what's going to happen.


I am in the same boat. Pursuing a new GM/President of basketball operations, as well as, firing and replacing Scott Brooks will be the next buttons to press. I’m not actually convinced that it’s a bad plan of action. They need another blue chip talent of some kind though.

A typical wizards off-season would be something like replacing Brooks with Mike D’antoni or something, then falling in the 7-12 range and drafting the kid from Turkey for international marketing reasons. They also will flip Bonga for a future 2nd round pick and re sign Ish Smith.

If they hit the home run and get Masai, everything changes. That would be extremely exciting. Masai landed guys like Powell, Poetl, Siakam, Wright, Van Fleet, Anunoby, Faried, Fournier. I’m not sure if he finds talent like Webster, but he would transform this franchise.

Right now, I actually expect to keep Beal and land Masai. It makes too much sense.

Have him trade Siakam and a 1st for Westbrook before he leaves the Raptors. 8-)
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#245 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 10:26 pm

Ruzious wrote:Have him trade Siakam and a 1st for Westbrook before he leaves the Raptors. 8-)

After all, Westbrook is a walking triple-double!
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#246 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 1:57 am

Gonzaga really doesn’t run much offense through Suggs. Just watched an entire half and Suggs probably had the ball in his hands in pick and roll action 3 times. Knocked down a couple of 3s, got to the free throw line a bunch. Plays absolute lockdown defense, poked the ball away from ball handlers probably 5-6 times in the half.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#247 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 4:07 am

Suggs is on a completely different level than Cunningham. He has basically played this entire game like a 5th option and dominated with his defense and rebounding. He blows up the other teams offense every possession. He might actually be the best defensive player I have seen in college basketball. On offense, he lives in the paint. He can drive by his man whenever he wants and crashes the offensive glass like a madman. Can get his shot off whenever he wants.

Such a casual dominant performance for him. He and Mobley are both going to be superstars.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#248 » by pcbothwel » Fri Feb 5, 2021 3:26 pm

NatP4 wrote:Suggs is on a completely different level than Cunningham. He has basically played this entire game like a 5th option and dominated with his defense and rebounding. He blows up the other teams offense every possession. He might actually be the best defensive player I have seen in college basketball. On offense, he lives in the paint. He can drive by his man whenever he wants and crashes the offensive glass like a madman. Can get his shot off whenever he wants.

Such a casual dominant performance for him. He and Mobley are both going to be superstars.


Agreed. Im not QUITE as high/certain about that ceiling, but I feel confident that at least 1 of them will be available at 3...Hell, I could see a team passing on Suggs at 3 for Kuminga if they have a PG (Detroit with Hayes, Magic with Fultz/Cole, Twolves with Dlo/Edwards, and Bulls with White/Lavine).

EDIT TO ADD: BTW... Here is a nice YT channel that gets all box score plays for any player (All shots, rebounds, assist, turnovers, steals, blocks, etc.)
For those of us without the team to watch entire game.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#249 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 3:56 pm

Awesome youtube channel. Thanks for posting.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#250 » by prime1time » Fri Feb 5, 2021 7:35 pm

I don't understand the knocking of Cunningham here. Both Suggs and Cunningham will be good. So let me defend Cunningham. 6'8, 220 and he's a better shooter than Suggs. He shoots more 3's than Suggs and at a higher percentage than Suggs. He attempts more FT's than Suggs and he makes them at a higher percentage than Suggs. Cunningham is shooting 83.8% from the FT line and 39.7% from 3. And most of these shots are off the dribble. To be his side, to be as fluid as he is, to have a jump shot that is already that effective, to already be a knock-down ft shooter I really don't see how you can argue against the kid.

More so, I haven't even talked about his greatest attribute, which is his mind. I started watching tape of him last night. The dude is going to a great player period. He see's the game one second quicker than the average player. Cunningham understands the game in such an intuitive level that he doesn't actually need to look at a player and see that he's open to make the pass. As he plays he knows where everyone is and he can just understand that when the help defender rotates, the guy in the corner is open. This may not sound like much, but it's the difference between getting a wide-open shot for a teammate or allowing the defender time to get back in position. From a mental and ability standpoint, his mind is able to process the game and his skills allow him to execute what needs to be done.

Again this may not sound like much, but he makes the right play so consistently. Open shot for 3, he's immediately ready to shoot the 3 in the rhythm. Smaller defender switches on, he immediately takes him to the post. Trap on the PnR, he stretches the defense out and immediately whips a pinpoint pass to his teammate in the corner. Does he make mistakes? Yes. But the key is that he's learning. He will be a force as soon as he comes into the league because of his ball-handling, ability to make shots, length, finishing ability and passing. But as he gets more reps and learns from his mistakes he will become truly special. Imo, he's the best prospect I've seen since KD. I love Suggs and Mobley will be special but this draft for me is Cunningham and everyone else.

There is simply no reason for this kid to be in College. In some of the film, I watch it felt as if he was going through the motions. Like it is just too easy for him. But then I saw what happened when he could use something to get himself going. In one case it was the crowd chanting overrated, in another case, it was OK State causing a shot-clock violation down the stretch. Regardless, I saw the fire, the passion and the intensity that the great one's have. Cade Cunningham's floor is being a very good player and making multiple all-star games. But if he accepts the challenge of being great, if he lets his competitive drive guide him and is committed to becoming the best player he can be, when it's all said and done, he will go down with the other one-name stars this league has seen. Dirk, Kobe, KG, Mike, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, LBJ, D-Wade etc. He's that good.

If somehow he ends up on the Wizards, we should pay homage to the Basketball Gods.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#251 » by prime1time » Fri Feb 5, 2021 7:52 pm

As for Suggs and Mobley they will both be special. Mobley I question his strength. With players like Embiid and Jokic dominating at the 5, he will have to guard them and at 210 it simply won't happen. Suggs strikes me as a Kyrie Irving/Damian Lillard, Gilbert Arenas esque scorer. He'll be able to scorer at the next level, but the challenge for him will be what does he bring to the table outside of scoring, how good/efficient of a scorer can he be, how effective will he be at playing without the ball and what kind of leader will he be. There's a lot of great scoring guards in the NBA. Morant, McCollum, Doncic, Harden, Thompson, Beal, Young, Curry, Lillard, Mitchell, Booker, Lavine etc. Where will Suggs fall on that spectrum in his prime? Secondly, and just as important, is how good his defense will be. As he gets older I expect him to get stronger. At the very least he needs to be able to switch 1-3. Suggs will be able to put up big-time numbers in the NBA even if he never develops into a great off ballplayer. But with regards to winning, it is absolutely essential that he be able to play off other great scoring guards. Last but not least is leadership. Mental makeup, competitiveness, leading other grown men, It's not talked about enough but this is what separates good players from great players.

There is an argument to be made for taking either Suggs or Mobley over Cunningham. Especially if you think they'll be able to address the main issues (I have questions about Mobley's jumper also). For me Suggs is much more of a sure thing. Even if he never reaches his ceiling, Cunningham's floor is the 2nd best player on a championship team. Regardless, if the Wiz can get one of these 3 guys and keep Beal we will very likely be championship contenders.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#252 » by prime1time » Fri Feb 5, 2021 7:54 pm

NatP4 wrote:Suggs is on a completely different level than Cunningham. He has basically played this entire game like a 5th option and dominated with his defense and rebounding. He blows up the other teams offense every possession. He might actually be the best defensive player I have seen in college basketball. On offense, he lives in the paint. He can drive by his man whenever he wants and crashes the offensive glass like a madman. Can get his shot off whenever he wants.

Such a casual dominant performance for him. He and Mobley are both going to be superstars.

What makes Suggs better than any of the other top scoring guards currently in the league? A lot of scoring guards struggle to win games.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#253 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 8:12 pm

prime1time wrote:
NatP4 wrote:Suggs is on a completely different level than Cunningham. He has basically played this entire game like a 5th option and dominated with his defense and rebounding. He blows up the other teams offense every possession. He might actually be the best defensive player I have seen in college basketball. On offense, he lives in the paint. He can drive by his man whenever he wants and crashes the offensive glass like a madman. Can get his shot off whenever he wants.

Such a casual dominant performance for him. He and Mobley are both going to be superstars.

What makes Suggs better than any of the other top scoring guards currently in the league? A lot of scoring guards struggle to win games.


He’s just simply not a scoring guard. Suggs is a football player playing basketball. He’s physical, competitive, smart, plays with an edge. He’s a machine on the glass, both ends of the court. He’s going to be a 5-6 rebound PG in the NBA. He also has an uncanny ability to get steals, he’s always jumping passing lanes and sneakily helping off his man to poke the ball away from unsuspecting players. The real special part about him is that he knows when to gamble and when to stay at home and slide his feet and keep people infront of him. Also takes charges really well. You can pencil him in as a 2+ steal per game guy in the NBA.

On offense he’s not just a “see the open guy make the pass” type PG, those players can collect assists just from running the show and facilitating. He’s a guy that intentionally will collapse the defense with a drive and draw help to him and kick the ball to teamates, creating open shots. There’s a huge difference there. He bends the defense. I’m not sure that he has elite level shot creating and ball handling ability. He’s not a Kyrie Irving type player, far more of a Kyle Lowry type.

Basically he’s as good defensively as any guard prospect you will ever see, and he has ALL of the intangibles you want in a player. He has no ego out there, no problem bringing the ball up and giving it up and letting other players run the show while he just spaces the floor. I watched that entire game last night and he didn’t make one single wrong decision on either end.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#254 » by nate33 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 8:36 pm

NatP4 wrote:
prime1time wrote:
NatP4 wrote:Suggs is on a completely different level than Cunningham. He has basically played this entire game like a 5th option and dominated with his defense and rebounding. He blows up the other teams offense every possession. He might actually be the best defensive player I have seen in college basketball. On offense, he lives in the paint. He can drive by his man whenever he wants and crashes the offensive glass like a madman. Can get his shot off whenever he wants.

Such a casual dominant performance for him. He and Mobley are both going to be superstars.

What makes Suggs better than any of the other top scoring guards currently in the league? A lot of scoring guards struggle to win games.


He’s just simply not a scoring guard. Suggs is a football player playing basketball. He’s physical, competitive, smart, plays with an edge. He’s a machine on the glass, both ends of the court. He’s going to be a 5-6 rebound PG in the NBA. He also has an uncanny ability to get steals, he’s always jumping passing lanes and sneakily helping off his man to poke the ball away from unsuspecting players. The real special part about him is that he knows when to gamble and when to stay at home and slide his feet and keep people infront of him. Also takes charges really well. You can pencil him in as a 2+ steal per game guy in the NBA.

On offense he’s not just a “see the open guy make the pass” type PG, those players can collect assists just from running the show and facilitating. He’s a guy that intentionally will collapse the defense with a drive and draw help to him and kick the ball to teamates, creating open shots. There’s a huge difference there. He bends the defense. I’m not sure that he has elite level shot creating and ball handling ability. He’s not a Kyrie Irving type player, far more of a Kyle Lowry type.

Basically he’s as good defensively as any guard prospect you will ever see, and he has ALL of the intangibles you want in a player. He has no ego out there, no problem bringing the ball up and giving it up and letting other players run the show while he just spaces the floor. I watched that entire game last night and he didn’t make one single wrong decision on either end.


I'm a little disappointed in Suggs' shooting. When he made 7 of 10 3's in that early game against Iowa, I got it in my head that he was a lights out shooter. He isn't. I was alarmed at how badly he missed a couple of looks from 3 in that video posted recently against Pacific. I'm not saying he will be a bad shooter - there's nothing about his stroke that is broken. But he does have some work to do in that department.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#255 » by nate33 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 8:45 pm

prime1time wrote:As for Suggs and Mobley they will both be special. Mobley I question his strength. With players like Embiid and Jokic dominating at the 5, he will have to guard them and at 210 it simply won't happen.

I'm not too worried about it. How many 19-year-old 7-footers are strong? He'll fill out.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#256 » by Ruzious » Fri Feb 5, 2021 9:01 pm

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Cade Cunningham here we come! :) 

Post#257 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 9:41 pm

nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
prime1time wrote:What makes Suggs better than any of the other top scoring guards currently in the league? A lot of scoring guards struggle to win games.


He’s just simply not a scoring guard. Suggs is a football player playing basketball. He’s physical, competitive, smart, plays with an edge. He’s a machine on the glass, both ends of the court. He’s going to be a 5-6 rebound PG in the NBA. He also has an uncanny ability to get steals, he’s always jumping passing lanes and sneakily helping off his man to poke the ball away from unsuspecting players. The real special part about him is that he knows when to gamble and when to stay at home and slide his feet and keep people infront of him. Also takes charges really well. You can pencil him in as a 2+ steal per game guy in the NBA.

On offense he’s not just a “see the open guy make the pass” type PG, those players can collect assists just from running the show and facilitating. He’s a guy that intentionally will collapse the defense with a drive and draw help to him and kick the ball to teamates, creating open shots. There’s a huge difference there. He bends the defense. I’m not sure that he has elite level shot creating and ball handling ability. He’s not a Kyrie Irving type player, far more of a Kyle Lowry type.

Basically he’s as good defensively as any guard prospect you will ever see, and he has ALL of the intangibles you want in a player. He has no ego out there, no problem bringing the ball up and giving it up and letting other players run the show while he just spaces the floor. I watched that entire game last night and he didn’t make one single wrong decision on either end.


I'm a little disappointed in Suggs' shooting. When he made 7 of 10 3's in that early game against Iowa, I got it in my head that he was a lights out shooter. He isn't. I was alarmed at how badly he missed a couple of looks from 3 in that video posted recently against Pacific. I'm not saying he will be a bad shooter - there's nothing about his stroke that is broken. But he does have some work to do in that department.


He’s not Steph Curry, but one of those 3s in the pacific game was halfway down, if it goes, he finishes 3-6 from 3.

His shot is a little grounded, but I think he’ll be a fine 36-37% 3pt shooter like Lowry.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#258 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 5, 2021 9:42 pm

Mobley has a great frame. He’s going to fill out and be a monster. One of the best parts of his game is that he’s so quick on his feet. He can switch onto small guards and keep them infront of him.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#259 » by nate33 » Sat Feb 6, 2021 6:54 pm

Been spending some time on that youtube channel touted by pcbothwel.

Here are some Mobley highlights from a game earlier in January against Arizona St. He was totally dominant defensively with 13 rebounds and 6 blocks. He was extremely impressive in pick-and-roll defense, hanging back to take away the pass to the roll man and then leaping out at the last second to snuff the shot by the ball handler. He did it over and over.

I am just salivating at the thought of landing this guy. He is a total game changer on defense. He is still raw on offense and makes way too many turnovers, but you can see that he has good shooting form. He hit 8 of 9 free throws.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Evan Mobley here we come! :) 

Post#260 » by Dat2U » Sat Feb 6, 2021 7:33 pm

nate33 wrote:Been spending some time on that youtube channel touted by pcbothwel.

Here are some Mobley highlights from a game earlier in January against Arizona St. He was totally dominant defensively with 13 rebounds and 6 blocks. He was extremely impressive in pick-and-roll defense, hanging back to take away the pass to the roll man and then leaping out at the last second to snuff the shot by the ball handler. He did it over and over.

I am just salivating at the thought of landing this guy. He is a total game changer on defense. He is still raw on offense and makes way too many turnovers, but you can see that he has good shooting form. He hit 8 of 9 free throws.



Yep. If your gonna draft a C really high nowadays, this kid is the prototype. I just think his floor is ridiculously high. Best big to hit the scene since Embiid. Better prospect than KAT due to elite defensive instincts. Better shooter than AD coming out and just a notch below him athletically.

In my mind he's TIER 1. Probably the only one in the coming draft. Suggs, who really gives me strong Gary Payton feels like a solid top 5 pick in most years. Cunningham has the skill and polish you want in a 6-8 wing. These are solid TIER 2 prospects which is where I had Melo this past year.

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