Tank World Order

[B-Ball Freak]

Thank you.

So what were you saying about the tWo movement again?

You want the last word, you got it.

Told you I was bored

[VanWest82]

I agree minus the maybe not win the championship part. We’re a big man away from winning everything. We only have most of these losses because of baynes and the refs.

C'mon man, no need to be like that. Trolling and making fun of fans who cheer for their team isn't a great look. Not everyone believes in the championship or bust mentality. Some of us are happy to invest in players who, although may not be championship caliber number one options, demonstrate their quality and perseverance and growth as individuals. This is fantasyland after all, and fans aren't losers or whatever just because they want to believe in something in their spare time.

Baynes inspires no belief, however, and his pathetic play has absolutely been a big a reason why we've lost so many games.

Man, I truly feel bad that you think I’m trolling or making fun of you or other fans.

But no, I strongly believe Baynes and the refs have single handily torpedoed the start of this season. We have multiple allstars on this team and our winning culture will persevere. Which is why tanking is stupid.

Once we get a competent big man we’re back to the ecfs and likely a finals appearance.

You know I'm actually trying to talk to you and take you seriously as a fellow fan. Which is it, that you were originally conning me and others into thinking you want the team to suck and lose, or now you're conning me and others into thinking you like this team and want them to win? Either way you're being disingenuous and trolling. I guess I'm just a giant sucker for interacting with you. Thanks for that.

[B-Ball Freak]

C'mon man, no need to be like that. Trolling and making fun of fans who cheer for their team isn't a great look. Not everyone believes in the championship or bust mentality. Some of us are happy to invest in players who, although may not be championship caliber number one options, demonstrate their quality and perseverance and growth as individuals. This is fantasyland after all, and fans aren't losers or whatever just because they want to believe in something in their spare time.

Baynes inspires no belief, however, and his pathetic play has absolutely been a big a reason why we've lost so many games.

Man, I truly feel bad that you think I’m trolling or making fun of you or other fans.

But no, I strongly believe Baynes and the refs have single handily torpedoed the start of this season. We have multiple allstars on this team and our winning culture will persevere. Which is why tanking is stupid.

Once we get a competent big man we’re back to the ecfs and likely a finals appearance.

You know I'm actually trying to talk to you and take you seriously as a fellow fan. Which is it, that you were conning me and others into thinking you want the team to suck and lose, or now you're conning me and others into thinking you like this team and want them to win? Either way you're being disingenuous and trolling. I guess I'm just a giant sucker for interacting with you.

Dude was being sarcastic the whole time, but I guess he doesn't like it when someone does it with him.

[720]

C'mon man, no need to be like that. Trolling and making fun of fans who cheer for their team isn't a great look. Not everyone believes in the championship or bust mentality. Some of us are happy to invest in players who, although may not be championship caliber number one options, demonstrate their quality and perseverance and growth as individuals. This is fantasyland after all, and fans aren't losers or whatever just because they want to believe in something in their spare time.

Baynes inspires no belief, however, and his pathetic play has absolutely been a big a reason why we've lost so many games.

Man, I truly feel bad that you think I’m trolling or making fun of you or other fans.

But no, I strongly believe Baynes and the refs have single handily torpedoed the start of this season. We have multiple allstars on this team and our winning culture will persevere. Which is why tanking is stupid.

Once we get a competent big man we’re back to the ecfs and likely a finals appearance.

You know I'm actually trying to talk to you and take you seriously as a fellow fan. Which is it, that you were originally conning me and others into thinking you want the team to suck and lose, or now you're conning me and others into thinking you like this team and want them to win? Either way you're being disingenuous and trolling. I guess I'm just a giant sucker for interacting with you.

I was brainwashed by tWo. I’ve come to my senses. Not my fault you feel conned.

We have elite talent on this roster. Tanking it out of the question.

[Steelo Green]

The Raptors are 10-13, I honestly find it funny people think this squad has something.

We’re worse than the Knicks and have the same record as the Hornets.

This squad still has four rotation players from the title winning team. They have everyone minus Ibaka and Gasol from last year's team that was on a 60 win pace. We're one quality big trade away from being in the mix again. We're only three games behind 3rd seed.

Clearly we're not worse than the Knicks. Don't be a prisoner of the moment. Out record is 10-13 but we have an expected record of 12-11 based on SRS, and that's with some really suspect officiating, bad 4th q luck, and playing all our games on the road.

Why is it funny to think your team might have something? Why is it so bad to want to cheer for them to win? It'd be different if we were 3/4 of the way through the season and had no chance of making the playoffs. There's still more than enough time to turn it around though - maybe not to win a championship but to have a quality year where guys get more valuable playoff reps and grow as players? Yeah that can still can happen.

The Cavs lost Lebron first time and went to the worst record in the league, a bunch of the same pieces post Lebron were still on the Cavs when he left and they were horrible.

This can be said of so many teams. The reality is Kawhi was more important to the title than the rest of the guys. No Kawhi and we lose to Philly. He literally carried us to the next round, he got zero help. Even in the ECF he was sublime.

What big trade? Please tell me. This is the fallacy that everyone is living in. There were only three players in the league who could have done what Kawhi did, Kawhi himself, Durant, and Lebron. Not one other player could have carried us like he did. It was that masterful of a playoff performance.

Let's do this big trade, who will we get? Let's say we got Harden, this would be the deal: 3-4 first rounders, 3-4 pick swaps, OG, Siakam.

Harden, Fred, Kyle and the rest is a contender? This is the flawed logic. We aren't getting a player first of all as good as Kawhi, because there are only two guys on that level, all other players are a step below, maybe Steph, but even getting Steph won't take us to that level so it would just be a trade to get us into the top 4 in the East at best, while mortgaging the next decade of our future.

This was the great part of the Demar trade, had Kawhi never played a game, we could have tanked and been out of Demar's contract.

This time, we would have to give up so much and still not be a contender, so no, we are not a trade away.

Shaq left Orlando and the next year they had all the pieces that went to the finals and what was the result?

This team is not special, I am sorry, but it is not. There are 10 teams better than ours who could make a trade for a superstar like you are saying and are in a better position post than we are. The Kawhi trade has made everyone think it is going to happen again and again, when it is not.

Come on really? SRS? Reffing? We are 10-13 because we are 10-13. There is no conspiracy for a team who was the second best team in the NBA last year or the title team the year before to lose. The same things we only focus on with our squad is the same thing that other teams see with their own. I won't comment on whether you watch our broadcasts or not, because I have no information with regard to that, but if you watch the other side or neutral, and it doesn't bias it as much as our guys do.

We are not playing all our games on the road, and again, we had what the second best road record last year? Not a good excuse. They are sitting in beautiful Tampa Bay, not in the cold, families all there, this in the beginning might have been true, but over a few weeks, not so much.

What is funny is people are, and you have just mentioned it so it's true, living in a world where a trade like Kawhi will happen again because it happened one time, when we just saw the value that a Harden went for, or a Jrue Holliday even, or a PG last year.

We don't have the talent, plain and simple. All the reps in the playoffs is great, sure, but when your ceiling is limited due to a talent issue, it will lead to what it once did, 5 years of the same team that would not win a thing, and this time, there is no player as good as Kyle, so I think it will win even less. The talent won't come via FA, the trade route is completely different this time around, so what option are you left with?

[Steelo Green]

What are you on about? I simply said there's no guarantee that tanking leads to a championship. Many teams do it, the results don't usually lead to a championship. Again, I don't claim to have the answers or a particular plan in place but I certainly trust the brain trust of the front office over whatever convoluted plan you believe to have.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

You do realize if not for Kyle's trade getting nixed, that was the brain trusts plan right?

We were in no mans land for 5 years and lucked into the Kawhi trade, people will just never admit to the truth.

Masai is the same guy who didn't fire Casey after the Wizards sweep (first time the home seed was swept in NBA history), or kept running it back when we knew the Kyle and Demar group was flawed.

The Spurs taking on Demar in a situation that is not replicable does not mean Masai is some genius, he traded away a negative asset because the Spurs were more hell bent on sticking it to Kawhi than taking a better package from the Lakers.

When people talk about Masai, they focus on his title as though everything prior to it is irrelevant.

He is a good president who has his flaws.

It's a forum - everyone gives their opinions, not sure why anyone giving theirs and it differs with yours and there is contempt.

I'm totally open to opinions and by the way, I'm not completely against tanking. I just think that that's not the only way to succeed.
Some people seem to think that's the only path to succeed when it's proven it's not. You read my reply as contempt but completely failed to acknowledge his condescendence most likely because you have your own bias towards a friendly of yours who are 100 percent on the tank bandwagon. Try to keep your bias aside before suggesting contempt from one side to the other while turning a blind eye. I've also seen several posts from you where you disagree with other posters opinions and your aggresive replies to them in return.

I realize the brain trust was planning on trading Lowry yes, ironically to tank and the exact opposite happened by not trading Lowry. He became an integral part to winning a championship. It does take some luck to go your way to have perennial success and also of course to win a championship. You're judging Masai on his misses and not his overall body of work which is not fair.

Yes, it is definitely aggression. Please, show me a post showing aggression versus someone being proven wrong and not having an answer.

You do realize you're the person who just said: What are you on about? Which is a lot more aggressive than anything I have said, and yes has a contemptuous undertone.

Please, show me aggression, and then I will gladly accept it if that is the case.

[ATLTimekeeper]

You don't want to equate who we got with our draft picks in our a trade, but you want to give credit to a player for the play he gave for years with other teams not our own in PJ Tucker... ???
We paid two 2nd rounds picks to have a PJ come in to to help slow down LeBron James... He ended up playing 24 games, averaging 6 points, and we were swept by Lebron's Cavs before he walked for nothing. You want to talk about a BAD example, there's one. 1st and 2nd Round pick for a back-up PG is highway robbery whether we take into a account the players drafted or not.

PJ was great for us, too. What are you talking about? 2nd rounders are trash value, so any time you can get a good player for 2nds it's a good trade. I just made a point that he continued to be good for someone else to help you understand the quality of player.

First, Grizzlies were 22-33: .400 with Gasol and were 11-16 with JV: 407... Wouldn't call that "demonstrably" better... I would call it neutral, which might demonstrate the fairness in talent value between JV/Gasol at the time. Second, if you don't think having JV on the roster right now would help in place of A.Baynes then you are just not being truthful. Would I do the trade again? Of course, I would... However, it was the Vasquez trade that gave us the surplus in assets to allow us to start making the Ibaka/Gasol deals in the first place... Our definitions of " giving up very little" are very different. Vasquez was out of the league 3 years ago, JV is still producing 15 pts 10 Reb... M.Gasol is no longer on the Raptors, while both Powell and OG are still contributing.

You're right, I got the trade date wrong, but the initial mistake was made by you about the trade helping them land Morant. It didn't. I'm not grasping your point about this trade and how it pertains to this team. JV is better than Baynes, but his abilities aren't coveted in the trade market these days. Delon was traded for 2nds (again, bad value picks). The Raptors won a title with Marc Gasol. Great trade for the Raptors and well ahead of the Vasquez trade.

Finally, the fact remains the Grizzlies traded M.Gasol who played his entire basketball career (including College) in Memphis and they traded him when he didn't want to be traded. They did EXACTLY what you are saying we shouldn't do with Kyle... For that reason alone, it is an AMAZING example.

What's amazing about it from their end? It didn't help them much. They could have kept Marc, he would have opted in (according to you) and maybe retired a Grizzly while helping Morant, JJJ and anyone else appreciate what it means to stick out your career for one team. We also hopefully have an agreement that 11 games under .500 near the deadline is a worse situation than 3 games under .500. Since this thread was started on Dec. 30th and the calls to dump Lowry were fairly immediate, a lot of my thoughts string along from that timing.

Lowballing or letting him walk is merely semantics, it's called negotiation... Wade felt he was worth one dollar figure and the Heat felt otherwise and let him go... Heat went from 3rd in the Conference to Lottery and they drafted Bam Adebayo when you said that move didn't hasten their rebuild, when it did... The Heat example also illustrates that smart teams do not allow players dictate their moves to them. Masai/Riley are the Presidents, not Lowry/Wade... I'm fine with letting other members judge how they view the example.

They went from 48 wins to 41. Tied with the Bulls and landed in the lottery. How's that for semantics? A tiebreaker was the difference between Bam and Justin Jackson. Sticking it to Wade had nothing to do with that rebuild. All they really accomplished was they pissed off Wade and his agent. They could have kept Wade. They brought him back, anyway. What did they get for screwing him out of money? The ability to pay James Johnson and Dion Waiters. This was hardly a "smart" timeline for the Heat. But, if Lowry walks for nothing, I guess I can expect Bam Adebayo-level talent in next year's draft.

Again, you and I have a different definitions for what "floundering/treading water" is. We are more than a third of the way through a shortened season and we are 10-13... We are 5-5 over our last 10... Looking at the upcoming schedule, we will be lucky to be 17-19 by the halfway mark... If that isn't floundering/treading water for a team that has been in the upper echelon of the league for the last 5 -6 years, I don't know what is.

So we make trades based on the upcoming schedule? The 3rd best team in the east is only like 3 or 4 games above .500. There's nothing really to note other than the Raptors got off to a horrible start and seem to be playing better.

Either way, you and I both agree in our belief in Masai/Bobby's ability to trade/draft our way back into relevance... The difference is, I want to give them better players/picks to use at their disposal to make it happen... You would rather see us continue the slow trend downwards, while hoping Masai/Bobby can make wine from water because you seem to be more loyal to Lowry's feelings than you are to the Raptors.

Um, no. I don't know what's going to happen. Where did I say I'd rather see us continue the slow trend downwards? I want them to be good and slowly build upwards again.

[VanWest82]

The reality is Kawhi was more important to the title than the rest of the guys. No Kawhi and we lose to Philly. He literally carried us to the next round, he got zero help. Even in the ECF he was sublime.

What big trade? Please tell me. This is the fallacy that everyone is living in. There were only three players in the league who could have done what Kawhi did, Kawhi himself, Durant, and Lebron. Not one other player could have carried us like he did. It was that masterful of a playoff performance.

Let's do this big trade, who will we get?

Spoiler:

Let's say we got Harden, this would be the deal: 3-4 first rounders, 3-4 pick swaps, OG, Siakam.

Harden, Fred, Kyle and the rest is a contender? This is the flawed logic. We aren't getting a player first of all as good as Kawhi, because there are only two guys on that level, all other players are a step below, maybe Steph, but even getting Steph won't take us to that level so it would just be a trade to get us into the top 4 in the East at best, while mortgaging the next decade of our future.

This was the great part of the Demar trade, had Kawhi never played a game, we could have tanked and been out of Demar's contract.

This time, we would have to give up so much and still not be a contender, so no, we are not a trade away.

Shaq left Orlando and the next year they had all the pieces that went to the finals and what was the result?

This team is not special, I am sorry, but it is not. There are 10 teams better than ours who could make a trade for a superstar like you are saying and are in a better position post than we are. The Kawhi trade has made everyone think it is going to happen again and again, when it is not.

Come on really? SRS? Reffing? We are 10-13 because we are 10-13. There is no conspiracy for a team who was the second best team in the NBA last year or the title team the year before to lose. The same things we only focus on with our squad is the same thing that other teams see with their own. I won't comment on whether you watch our broadcasts or not, because I have no information with regard to that, but if you watch the other side or neutral, and it doesn't bias it as much as our guys do.

We are not playing all our games on the road, and again, we had what the second best road record last year? Not a good excuse. They are sitting in beautiful Tampa Bay, not in the cold, families all there, this in the beginning might have been true, but over a few weeks, not so much.

What is funny is people are, and you have just mentioned it so it's true, living in a world where a trade like Kawhi will happen again because it happened one time, when we just saw the value that a Harden went for, or a Jrue Holliday even, or a PG last year.

We don't have the talent, plain and simple. All the reps in the playoffs is great, sure, but when your ceiling is limited due to a talent issue, it will lead to what it once did, 5 years of the same team that would not win a thing, and this time, there is no player as good as Kyle, so I think it will win even less. The talent won't come via FA, the trade route is completely different this time around, so what option are you left with?

You're trapped in this binary view of championship or bust with the current roster assuming no growth or player development or tweaks or anything. I wasn't even talking about a trade a for star, and never have been. I said competent big man. We could trade for Drummond right now and probably finish top 4-5 in the East, make the second round again, etc. I'm not saying Drummond is the answer, just using him as an example.

If we keeping winning we're left with so many more options that you refuse to consider as possibilities. What if some of our guys impress in the playoffs and become viable trade assets? It might provide a perfect opportunity to pivot without sacrificing everyone to a losing initiative. What if someone like Siakam is able to regain his confidence and return to form alongside better front court help? What if Fred or OG takes the next step, or Malachi has a playoff moment that leads to tangible development? You never know with this stuff until you get there. None of this is a possibility if the team is mired in losing and bad energy.

And again, if it does come to it I'm ok with selling off and making the best of a bad situation. The argument is that right now that's premature. It's better to keep our options open.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Banking on the Raptors to only trade their guys at or for peak value and then acquiring quality players for below market value doesn't seem like the safest bet. Its weird that one side is obsessed with the percentages of getting a star with pick x, y and z yet their plan is basically "hope we get lucky."

Also, you don't have to be a "winning" team to develop players. Look at the Thunder this year. Look at the Hawks who the Raptors just played. Look at the Knicks and Cavs who are just as good as the Raptors are this year.

[rocky_da_best]

You know I'm actually trying to talk to you and take you seriously as a fellow fan. Which is it, that you were originally conning me and others into thinking you want the team to suck and lose, or now you're conning me and others into thinking you like this team and want them to win? Either way you're being disingenuous and trolling. I guess I'm just a giant sucker for interacting with you. Thanks for that.

Told everyone 10 pages ago to stop interacting with him. He just feeds off people talking to him about anything at this point. However, He knows by talking about tanking it will garner the most responses.

[KL78192020]

There will be no tanking. this team is good enough to be top 6 in the east, and I would like to enjoy watching my team rather than chase some illusive lottery pick. No rookie is guaranteed to be good.

At this point they're 1 game away from being the 6th seed, yet also 1.5 game away from 4th worst team in the league. A whole bunch of teams with 9 to 11 wins.

[VanWest82]

Banking on the Raptors to only trade their guys at or for peak value and then acquiring quality players for below market value doesn't seem like the safest bet. Its weird that one side is obsessed with the percentages of getting a star with pick x, y and z yet their plan is basically "hope we get lucky."

Is it luck when Masai and Co. have repeatedly proven their ability to make positive trades?

Also, you don't have to be a "winning" team to develop players. Look at the Thunder this year. Look at the Hawks who the Raptors just played. Look at the Knicks and Cavs who are just as good as the Raptors are this year.

These are funny examples. OKC have developed SGA and Dort by competing and making the playoffs with Chris Paul and Schroder and Gallo, and then surrounding them with guys like Al Horford and Geroge Hill. Meanwhile, Hawks have underachieved this year despite having an embarrassment of talent riches and a roster that makes sense all because they didn't develop their young talent properly. Teammates are complaining openly in the media that Trae Young doesn't play the right way. Reddish looks like a bust. One could argue they're finally developing them properly now by surrounding them with competent veterans and holding them accountable while trying to win but I don't think that's what you were talking about.

[Pooh_Jeter]

There is a major difference between trades that provide incremental positive value and acquiring Kawhi Leonard well below market value. I think Masai/Bobby have an overall solid trade history, but you don't just pull rabbits out of your hat at will.

The Thunder purposely started a rebuild and it opened up a ton of minutes and opportunity for SGA and Dort who are now primary options and not insulated in set roles. Who says a rebuilding team can't have useful vets on it? Why do people still think this is a 76ers process situation?

The Hawks came into this year projected as a play in team and they are currently ahead of that projection despite a bunch of injuries. How are they a disappointment?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Banking on the Raptors to only trade their guys at or for peak value and then acquiring quality players for below market value doesn't seem like the safest bet. Its weird that one side is obsessed with the percentages of getting a star with pick x, y and z yet their plan is basically "hope we get lucky."

Also, you don't have to be a "winning" team to develop players. Look at the Thunder this year. Look at the Hawks who the Raptors just played. Look at the Knicks and Cavs who are just as good as the Raptors are this year.

Acquiring players below market value actually does seem like a safe bet. It tends to be the hallmark of a well-run franchise and certainly (see some of my above posts) a consistent trend for this one of late.

You've rendered your own argument to "hope we get lucky in the draft!" You didn't need to create a thread to say that, though.

[Pooh_Jeter]

The TWO plan involves asset building to mitigate the need for just getting lucky.

Your plan explicitly relies on luck to be successful.

That's the difference. We have had the back and forth about your thoughts on probabilities, etc. Unfortunate you have to join some others around here in trying to censor opinions.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The TWO plan involves asset building to mitigate the need for just getting lucky.

Your plan explicitly relies on luck to be successful.

That's the difference. We have had the back and forth about your thoughts on probabilities, etc. Unfortunate you have to join some others around here in trying to censor opinions.

No. Was Siakam not an asset? Fred? OG? Delon? Norm? My plan just doesn't involve the active attempt to lose games in order to gain assets. A few more doesn't make anyone demonstrably dangerous, and in fact when you have too many picks what ends up happening is they just burn in your hands. This will happen to OKC, too. You've basically only said that acquiring assets gives you extra opportunities to be lucky in the draft, and ridiculed any thought that teams can profit off trade.

[TRik]

I'm OK at this point with the Raps trying to keep the winning culture going and try to improve through FA/trades vs the draft, even if that means finishing in the 7/8 range and losing in the first round. I just don't want to then be stuck in 'no mans land' for the next few years. Let this go for a season, if we're no better next year.....then time to change it up.

[Pooh_Jeter]

The TWO plan involves asset building to mitigate the need for just getting lucky.

Your plan explicitly relies on luck to be successful.

That's the difference. We have had the back and forth about your thoughts on probabilities, etc. Unfortunate you have to join some others around here in trying to censor opinions.

No. Was Siakam not an asset? Fred? OG? Delon? Norm? My plan just doesn't involve the active attempt to lose games in order to gain assets. A few more doesn't make anyone demonstrably dangerous, and in fact when you have too many picks what ends up happening is they just burn in your hands. This will happen to OKC, too. You've basically only said that acquiring assets gives you extra opportunities to be lucky in the draft, and ridiculed any thought that teams can profit off trade.

TWO is leading the charge on dealing Lowry, Norm and Boucher so to say we don't believe in the utility of trades is nonsense. Asset building also means weaponizing your cap space for assets and yes, even acquiring players using those picks/assets like you are advocating for.

So now having too many picks is a bad thing? Yes, once you make the pick it can devalue the asset, but to act like too many picks is a bad thing when you can easily trade them before hand is ludicrous.

Its fine, there have been 1000 back and forths and still people mischaracterize what TWO stands for. If at this point you still think TWO is just pray for losses and shrug your shoulders at everything else that's on you.

[VanWest82]

There is a major difference between trades that provide incremental positive value and acquiring Kawhi Leonard well below market value. I think Masai/Bobby have an overall solid trade history, but you don't just pull rabbits out of your hat at will.

Why does it have to be a Kawhi Leonard level trade? What about a Kyle Lowry trade where we find an undervalued asset and develop him into an all star? Or we could keep doing incrementally positive value trades and then package those assets to get into the lottery.

The Thunder purposely started a rebuild and it opened up a ton of minutes and opportunity for SGA and Dort who are now primary options and not insulated in set roles. Who says a rebuilding team can't have useful vets on it? Why do people still think this is a 76ers process situation?

Currently OKC has about the same record as we do, so it's really not about tanking for a pick, in which case your position is we should trade Paul George for the motherload. That one was contingent on Kawhi having arguably the most leverage in league history (and having Paul George). That scenario might be less likely to happen again than the trade we did for Kawhi!

The Hawks came into this year projected as a play in team and they are currently ahead of that projection despite a bunch of injuries. How are they a disappointment?

Part of the reason the projection for Hawks was so low was because they didn't develop their young players very well. Trae Young was the worst defensive player in the NBA. They have something like 10-12 legit NBA rotation players on their roster, and guys who's skillsets fit pretty well together. Outside of Lakers does anyone have that this year?

[Skeezo]

PJ was great for us, too. What are you talking about? 2nd rounders are trash value, so any time you can get a good player for 2nds it's a good trade. I just made a point that he continued to be good for someone else to help you understand the quality of player.

PJ was here for a split second and was gone, while OG and Powell are still here... Is PJ better than Vasquez? Yes! Yet, somehow Masai managed to get a 1st & 2nd round while the best PHX could muster was Two 2nds after HEAVILY shopping him at the deadline with the intent of wanting a 1st round pick.... Vasquez deal >>> PJ deal

The whole reason you cherry-picked the Vasquez deal from the start was to illustrate how Masai could take a mediocre player like Vasquez, turn him into a late-1st/mid-2nd Rd pick and then draft two quality players like OG/Powell with it... This was done to argue why there is no need to potentially dip into the lottery by trading away Lowry/Powell. You can't use Masai's genius with later picks in one instance and then turn around and say 2nd Rd picks are worthless to make another argument work.

You're right, I got the trade date wrong, but the initial mistake was made by you about the trade helping them land Morant. It didn't. I'm not grasping your point about this trade and how it pertains to this team. JV is better than Baynes, but his abilities aren't coveted in the trade market these days. Delon was traded for 2nds (again, bad value picks). The Raptors won a title with Marc Gasol. Great trade for the Raptors and well ahead of the Vasquez trade.

How you and I perceive the value of a trade is different is all... You see Gasol as the final little piece to push us over the top; the Championship is the pinnacle, so that wins the day... Perfectly valid logic-making... My gage when determining winners/losers of trades is more about whether a team was robbed or not with respect to value given/gained. What was long-term outcome and how players performed for each team years after the trade? etc.

What's amazing about it from their end? It didn't help them much. They could have kept Marc, he would have opted in (according to you) and maybe retired a Grizzly while helping Morant, JJJ and anyone else appreciate what it means to stick out your career for one team. We also hopefully have an agreement that 11 games under .500 near the deadline is a worse situation than 3 games under .500. Since this thread was started on Dec. 30th and the calls to dump Lowry were fairly immediate, a lot of my thoughts string along from that timing.

Memphis made the deal with the future in mind. Clearly they didn't value what you do regarding "culture/legacy player" and chose future assets instead... JV is now 28 years old giving them 15 and 10 with an efficient 20 PER in 28 mins... JV will still only be 31-32 years old when Morant/JJJ are in their prime, and M.Gasol will be out of the league. Even now, Marc is a shell of his old shelf, who do you think the Grizzlies would prefer?

Additionally, Memphis as a smart franchise should, keeps extending their assets further down the line... They tried out D.Wright, didn't really work, so they S&T for two future 2nds. Maybe one of those turns to a Powell-like player, maybe it doesn't.

OLIVE BRANCH TIME:

We can definitely agree that 11 games under .500 near the deadline is a worse situation than 3 games under .500 one third through a shortened season. I didn't need this season to know that we didn't have the tools, but if you prefer to wait until closer to the deadline to maybe realize it might be in our best interest to trade Lowry/Powell, I understand.

Can we also agree that after losing four players for nothing from our title rotation and seeing us go from Championship >>> 2nd Round Loss >>> 3 games below .500 a third through the season that we may have enough evidence to view us in a "slow trend downward?"

The 3rd best team in the east is only like 3 or 4 games above .500. There's nothing really to note other than the Raptors got off to a horrible start and seem to be playing better.

We are also only 2 games in the loss category from being a Top 5 pick... No doubt there is a lot of mediocrity in the middle right now, but there is also WAY too much firepower at the top. I just don't see a move, that even makes us a legit 2nd round threat. I'm happy to be wrong though.