Tank World Order (2.0)

[Skeezo]

I amended my pick to "Asset building mode: waiting until the deadline Lowry makes his call" though I think if we get blown away by an offer in either direction you have to take that. Front office has an obligation to do what's best for the franchise.

Absolutely, there can be additional layers of nuance to every direction. As you said, if you get a blow away offer you take it regardless what mode you are in... The selection you chose might have been better titled "Wait and See: Deadline Mode" now that I think about it. The idea being that some members would like to see which way this team is trending toward the deadline and go from there. I also wanted to differentiate, Lowry making his own call because it seems to me that is a bit of the contention for some people when deciding if they want to go into "Asset-Building Mode" or not.

[Hero]

I voted the first option but now that I think about it we may not really get the ideal assets back for all our pieces. Imo start with trading off Lowry and then see what else is available.

[VanWest82]

I amended my pick to "Asset building mode: waiting until the deadline Lowry makes his call" though I think if we get blown away by an offer in either direction you have to take that. Front office has an obligation to do what's best for the franchise.

Absolutely, there can be additional layers of nuance to every direction. As you said, if you get a blow away offer you take it regardless what mode you are in... The selection you chose might have been better titled "Wait and See: Deadline Mode" now that I think about it. The idea being that some members would like to see which way this team is trending toward the deadline and go from there. I also wanted to differentiate, Lowry making his own call because it seems to me that is a bit of the contention for some people when deciding if they want to go into "Asset-Building Mode" or not.

It's not even just about Lowry making the call. Raptors don't want the PR hit of sending him to a place he doesn't want to go for a middling return, especially after the Demar trade, and especially after Lowry became goat raptor. The appearance of doing right by him is surely part of the calculus unless the return is so good that you can sell it to the fans as something you just couldn't say no to.

[Parataxis]

I'm in the same place now that I was in the off-season. Unless we kneecap (or trade away for nothing) our core, a bottom-5 finish is a pipe dream.

This is not our year to make a push. Trade Lowry/Powell for future draft capital, and play out this year. Hell, maybe the the offseason, we look to re-sign Lowry (maybe not. Depends on his price and where we're at) but yeah. This year we have to acknowledge that we're temporarily a middle-of the road team, with or without Lowry, and try to build up assets so we can get ourselves to a place where we're able to make a push when the time is right.

(EDITED TO ADD: I'm also okay with waiting to the trade deadline. It's all about getting the best value - we don't need to make a trade now, if we can make a better one in a month)

[Skeezo]

I amended my pick to "Asset building mode: waiting until the deadline Lowry makes his call" though I think if we get blown away by an offer in either direction you have to take that. Front office has an obligation to do what's best for the franchise.

Absolutely, there can be additional layers of nuance to every direction. As you said, if you get a blow away offer you take it regardless what mode you are in... The selection you chose might have been better titled "Wait and See: Deadline Mode" now that I think about it. The idea being that some members would like to see which way this team is trending toward the deadline and go from there. I also wanted to differentiate, Lowry making his own call because it seems to me that is a bit of the contention for some people when deciding if they want to go into "Asset-Building Mode" or not.

It's not even just about Lowry making the call. Raptors don't want the PR hit of sending him to a place he doesn't want to go for a middling return, especially after the Demar trade, and especially after Lowry became goat raptor. The appearance of doing right by him is surely part of the calculus unless the return is so good that you can sell it to the fans as something you just couldn't say no to.

In my opinion, it will only be contenders that will offer anything of significant value for Lowry. Pretending squads know Lowry would just be a rental so they won't offer anything of substance... As a result, I don't really fear Lowry would be put in a place that wasn't advantageous both competitively and financially, and therefore won't cause a blowback on the Raptors PR wise. I recognize your cause for concern though.

Unless a middling team convinces Kyle's agent, it's in his best interest to come there because they plan on giving him a HUGE offer using his Bird Rights, but not sure I see anybody stepping up. However, I do believe that there are more than a few contenders who would value gaining Lowry's Bird Rights allowing them the advantage of re-signing him at an over MLE offer which most contenders cannot do. Either way, I'm quite positive for a variety of reasons any deal involving Kyle, there will be plenty of communication in advance/during negotiations with him and his agent.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Why are people worried about the PR blowback of trading Lowry?

If he explicitly tells management "Don't trade me, I want to retire here" then cool, keep him around. Otherwise, ship him out.

What negative impact has trading DeRozan had? Its the same type of thinking that has people believing the team gets magical "winning culture" pixie dust sprinkled on every player even if they limp into the playoffs and get swept in the first round.

[ATLTimekeeper]

In my opinion, it will only be contenders that will offer anything of significant value for Lowry. Pretending squads know Lowry would just be a rental so they won't offer anything of substance... As a result, I don't really fear Lowry would be put in a place that wasn't advantageous both competitively and financially, and therefore won't cause a blowback on the Raptors PR wise. I recognize your cause for concern though.

Unless a middling team convinces Kyle's agent, it's in his best interest to come there because they plan on giving him a HUGE offer using his Bird Rights, but not sure I see anybody stepping up. However, I do believe that there are more than a few contenders who would value gaining Lowry's Bird Rights allowing them the advantage of re-signing him at an over MLE offer which most contenders cannot do. Either way, I'm quite positive for a variety of reasons any deal involving Kyle, there will be plenty of communication in advance/during negotiations with him and his agent.

It'd be nice to know what people think "significant value" is for Lowry. I've discussed with other posters that the best possible haul for Lowry is a "young star on a rookie deal" or future unprotected 1sts. So in my eyes, we already we have to strike LAC, Brooklyn and likely Milwaukee off, as they have none of those that will be of any tangible worth to the Raptors in the next several years. That narrows it down to Utah, LAL, Philly and... do people think the 12-10 Celtics are still a contender? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say yes.

Utah likely won't be able to match salaries, but Quinn Snyder loves Lowry. They might be able to do something creative in a multi-team deal with Bogdon and Ingles going elsewhere.
LAL could throw a kitchen sink role player package with Schroeder, Harrell, THT, Matthews and a future first. Seems possible and LeBron teams love "go for it" deadline moves.
Philly has the salaries to match, but their prospects are meh. I think it's a good bet to take back unprotected firsts relying on Embiid's body to break down before his late 20s. I think Morey is smart enough to know that, too, and unlikely to offer those kinds of picks.
Boston's future picks shouldn't be worth too much. They're stingy in trades. Getting a bunch of mid-to-late firsts out of them might be the best outcome there.

From my perspective, it would look like trading Lowry just to get something in return. And as I've said, if that's what he wants we should make good on that request.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Also, the DRose trade might be an indication that Powell's return wouldn't be that hot. Whatever you want to think about DRose now, he's only 32 and has been one of the best bench scorers/playmakers in the league the last few years. He just went for the equivalent of Alex Len and a 2nd.

A 2nd is better than nothing, I guess, but in regards to Powell it still seems like the best option is to wait and see. You weigh the risk of him leaving for nothing v. the reward of retaining him on good long-term contract where he starts and averages 20 without needing to dominate the ball, and knowing he fits in well here and is close with Fred and Siakam against whatever you might think he could get in the market. I'm guessing most people think a late first?

[Skeezo]

In my opinion, it will only be contenders that will offer anything of significant value for Lowry. Pretending squads know Lowry would just be a rental so they won't offer anything of substance... As a result, I don't really fear Lowry would be put in a place that wasn't advantageous both competitively and financially, and therefore won't cause a blowback on the Raptors PR wise. I recognize your cause for concern though.

Unless a middling team convinces Kyle's agent, it's in his best interest to come there because they plan on giving him a HUGE offer using his Bird Rights, but not sure I see anybody stepping up. However, I do believe that there are more than a few contenders who would value gaining Lowry's Bird Rights allowing them the advantage of re-signing him at an over MLE offer which most contenders cannot do. Either way, I'm quite positive for a variety of reasons any deal involving Kyle, there will be plenty of communication in advance/during negotiations with him and his agent.

It'd be nice to know what people think "significant value" is for Lowry. I've discussed with other posters that the best possible haul for Lowry is a "young star on a rookie deal" or future unprotected 1sts. So in my eyes, we already we have to strike LAC, Brooklyn and likely Milwaukee off, as they have none of those that will be of any tangible worth to the Raptors in the next several years. That narrows it down to Utah, LAL, Philly and... do people think the 12-10 Celtics are still a contender? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say yes.

Utah likely won't be able to match salaries, but Quinn Snyder loves Lowry. They might be able to do something creative in a multi-team deal with Bogdon and Ingles going elsewhere.
LAL could throw a kitchen sink role player package with Schroeder, Harrell, THT, Matthews and a future first. Seems possible and LeBron teams love "go for it" deadline moves.
Philly has the salaries to match, but their prospects are meh. I think it's a good bet to take back unprotected firsts relying on Embiid's body to break down before his late 20s. I think Morey is smart enough to know that, too, and unlikely to offer those kinds of picks.
Boston's future picks shouldn't be worth too much. They're stingy in trades. Getting a bunch of mid-to-late firsts out of them might be the best outcome there.

From my perspective, it would look like trading Lowry just to get something in return. And as I've said, if that's what he wants we should make good on that request.

No, we aren't going to get anything of the Jrue Holiday pull for Lowry, that won't happen. However, your expectation of a decent Rookie Scale player + 1st(s) seem about right. I won't dispute your current evaluation of contending assets either. However, like you suggested with Utah, any contender can possibly facilitate our requirements if they utilize a third team to meet our needs. I loath the LAC for their tampering ways, but if they find a way to muster the best package through other teams, I won't say, No... Moreover, I can't see Kyle having an issue being moved to a team he has so much familiarity with.

Additionally, we can't necessarily rule out teams on the verge over the next couple years who might be willing to give Kyle a BIG deal using his Bird Rights... How much does KL want a "great chance" to win championships versus a "good chance" to win championship and still be PAID? I don't know the answer to that.

I think you are right with Utah, LAL, and Philly all being options... However, I wouldn't rule out LAC, Dallas, Denver, or even Miami just yet... Miami record doesn't show it right now, but I don't view their recent trade as a "Sellers" trade... Lowry is definitely a Riley-type player and we know the friendship that exists with Kyle and Butler.

[bluerap23]

Biased poll options.

I can change it if you would like.

Don't really see where the bias lies but, go ahead.

What other option did you have in mind?

Much improved now. Good survey.

I have to complete surveys in my job. Some of them are so biased as to support one particular outcome. Usually it is subconscious. Good correction.

[TD2FutureStar]

Looks unanimous to trade Lowry and Powell and do a quick rebuild with the young core

[TD2FutureStar]

If Lowry and Powell both said they'd re-sign in the off season if they match other teams offers I'd be fine with keeping them around. Without that verbal commitment the risk is too high.

[douggood]

Also, the DRose trade might be an indication that Powell's return wouldn't be that hot. Whatever you want to think about DRose now, he's only 32 and has been one of the best bench scorers/playmakers in the league the last few years. He just went for the equivalent of Alex Len and a 2nd.

A 2nd is better than nothing, I guess, but in regards to Powell it still seems like the best option is to wait and see. You weigh the risk of him leaving for nothing v. the reward of retaining him on good long-term contract where he starts and averages 20 without needing to dominate the ball, and knowing he fits in well here and is close with Fred and Siakam against whatever you might think he could get in the market. I'm guessing most people think a late first?

with rose, it was more that detroit did right by him and trade him to where he wanted to go, plus having his bird rights arent that useful as he is unlikely to get more than mle.
for other teasm powell bird rights are an asset.

for me the dennis schroder trade is an indication that powell wont get that much in return, leading up to draft posters were suggesting powell for pelican #13 pick etc,

last year jordan clarkson was traded cleveland to jazz, for exum and 2 seconds. thats the market i think we can expect.

[Son Goku 25]

With all due respect, I firmly believe Norm has a lot more value than Clarkson. Powell lowkey is a good starting sg in the league and plays on both ends, he's more talented and has the physical ability that Clarkson doesn't have.

Lowry can still ball and is a champ, I smile whenever ppl make fun of him mainly on the GB.. the guy cooked Irving and Nets himself basically even at that age.

[ReggieSlater]

What negative impact has trading DeRozan had? Its the same type of thinking that has people believing the team gets magical "winning culture" pixie dust sprinkled on every player even if they limp into the playoffs and get swept in the first round.

We got swept in the first round, made some positive moves to improve the team without tanking, and won a championship. The pixie dust must be real, bro.

[Skeezo]

Also, the DRose trade might be an indication that Powell's return wouldn't be that hot. Whatever you want to think about DRose now, he's only 32 and has been one of the best bench scorers/playmakers in the league the last few years. He just went for the equivalent of Alex Len and a 2nd.

A 2nd is better than nothing, I guess, but in regards to Powell it still seems like the best option is to wait and see. You weigh the risk of him leaving for nothing v. the reward of retaining him on good long-term contract where he starts and averages 20 without needing to dominate the ball, and knowing he fits in well here and is close with Fred and Siakam against whatever you might think he could get in the market. I'm guessing most people think a late first?

I'm not sure you are being very honest here...

Powell is key-reserve from a championship-winning team who you say is a 20 pt scorer as a starter, could fetch 18m-20m on the market, and we should consider retaining at that price as a "trade asset." But here, you are equating 28 yr old Powell to 32yr old Rose, a guy who has put up empty stats on perennial basement-dwelling teams. Powell would average 25 per game with Minnesota, Detroit, Cleveland, NYK... Then you have Rose's personality and injury issues which is why no team has given him even an MLE offer in the last 4 years...

You then equate 23yr old Dennis Smith Jr, a player still on his rookie deal who in his first 2 years with Dallas averaged 14 per game to a journeyman in Len, who we waived and hasn't averaged over 8 points in 8 seasons. DSJ's value has certainly tanked since being moved to NYK, especially after they drafted and gave minutes to RJ Barrett, but comparing him to Len isn't fair at all... Are you actually telling me we could have gotten D.Rose for A.Len and 2nd Rd pick? If we really want to compete this year, and are looking for talent upgrades, than Masai was really asleep at wheel and missed an opportunity there, No?

I'm not sure, what value Powell has on the market... I would like to think he is worth at least a lotto-protected first & salary filler. I have also seen a rumour floated around a Powell/L.Ball swap... Not sure how much I like that trade considering we could make Ball a pretty hefty offer this offseason if we really want him. However, maybe having Ball's RFA rights allows us to retain him cheaper than trying overpay which might make it advantageous to the Raps.

[Steelo Green]

What negative impact has trading DeRozan had? Its the same type of thinking that has people believing the team gets magical "winning culture" pixie dust sprinkled on every player even if they limp into the playoffs and get swept in the first round.

We got swept in the first round, made some positive moves to improve the team without tanking, and won a championship. The pixie dust must be real, bro.

How did we improve the team?

Last year was Pascal playing above his head, Marc still at an elite level defensively, and Kyle still an all-star.

All three of those things are no longer true and we are 10-13 as a result.

One off years happen (Seattle, Atlanta, Denver from a few years ago), and that’s what last year looked like. A one off team that doesn’t really have anything in particular that is special.

The reality is we have 0 superstar level talent, a basic requirement to win a title - not these feel good second round bounces with no chance to win anything, something Kyle and Demar did a lot of, and that team with a prime Kyle is better than this one.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I'm not sure you are being very honest here...

Powell is key-reserve from a championship-winning team who you say is a 20 pt scorer as a starter, could fetch 18m-20m on the market, and we should consider retaining at that price as a "trade asset." But here, you are equating 28 yr old Powell to 32yr old Rose, a guy who has put up empty stats on perennial basement-dwelling teams. Powell would average 25 per game with Minnesota, Detroit, Cleveland, NYK... Then you have Rose's personality and injury issues which is why no team has given him even an MLE offer in the last 4 years...

Powell starting for us on a long-term deal is a better trade asset than Powell coming off the bench/spot starting on an expiring. He's UFA if he opts out this summer, which will compromise his trade value, and players of his standing will be looking to get paid.

You then equate 23yr old Dennis Smith Jr, a player still on his rookie deal who in his first 2 years with Dallas averaged 14 per game to a journeyman in Len, who we waived and hasn't averaged over 8 points in 8 seasons. DSJ's value has certainly tanked since being moved to NYK, especially after they drafted and gave minutes to RJ Barrett, but comparing him to Len isn't fair at all... Are you actually telling me we could have gotten D.Rose for A.Len and 2nd Rd pick? If we really want to compete this year, and are looking for talent upgrades, than Masai was really asleep at wheel and missed an opportunity there, No?

Do we need guards? The Raptors don't need Rose. And they may not be looking to buy at this time, or buy at all. This isn't a logical line of questioning. All we need to know is DSJ's trade value is effectively nil.

[ATLTimekeeper]

With all due respect, I firmly believe Norm has a lot more value than Clarkson. Powell lowkey is a good starting sg in the league and plays on both ends, he's more talented and has the physical ability that Clarkson doesn't have.

Lowry can still ball and is a champ, I smile whenever ppl make fun of him mainly on the GB.. the guy cooked Irving and Nets himself basically even at that age.

I was actually checking the other day and randomly discovered Clarkson has the second most total points scored out of that vaunted 2014 NBA draft. He's no slouch! Trade value is definitely fluid and can be highly dependant on the buyer-seller. Cleveland is a horribly run franchise top to bottom. Toronto has Masai and Bobby working the phones.

[Skeezo]

I'm not sure you are being very honest here...

Powell is key-reserve from a championship-winning team who you say is a 20 pt scorer as a starter, could fetch 18m-20m on the market, and we should consider retaining at that price as a "trade asset." But here, you are equating 28 yr old Powell to 32yr old Rose, a guy who has put up empty stats on perennial basement-dwelling teams. Powell would average 25 per game with Minnesota, Detroit, Cleveland, NYK... Then you have Rose's personality and injury issues which is why no team has given him even an MLE offer in the last 4 years...

Powell starting for us on a long-term deal is a better trade asset than Powell coming off the bench/spot starting on an expiring. He's UFA if he opts out this summer, which will compromise his trade value, and players of his standing will be looking to get paid.

You then equate 23yr old Dennis Smith Jr, a player still on his rookie deal who in his first 2 years with Dallas averaged 14 per game to a journeyman in Len, who we waived and hasn't averaged over 8 points in 8 seasons. DSJ's value has certainly tanked since being moved to NYK, especially after they drafted and gave minutes to RJ Barrett, but comparing him to Len isn't fair at all... Are you actually telling me we could have gotten D.Rose for A.Len and 2nd Rd pick? If we really want to compete this year, and are looking for talent upgrades, than Masai was really asleep at wheel and missed an opportunity there, No?

Do we need guards? The Raptors don't need Rose. And they may not be looking to buy at this time, or buy at all. This isn't a logical line of questioning. All we need to know is DSJ's trade value is effectively nil.

If it is for a talent upgrade of A.Len for D.Rose or DSJ, you do it ALL day, and figure out the surplus after. We waived A.Len for NOTHING... Maybe, you get D.Rose/DSJ and then you move Powell/TD/Thomas for a BIG... Either way, why does almost every GM talk about drafting the best player rather than positional need when it comes to the draft?

Is N.Powell right now worth more than PJ Tucker was when we got him for Two 2nd Rd picks? Yes he is... You called the PJ deal one of Masai's BEST moves, better than the Vasquez deal which ultimately netted us Powell/OG... Now, you are saying the best we can expect for N.Powell is A.Len and 2nd Pick?

Is a resigned Powell a better trade asset than Powell as an expiring? Well, it depends on his next deal... At 12m per year? Norm is likely worth more... N.Powell at 18m-20m per year? Hell No...

End of the day, N.Powell as an expiring is a better trade asset than D.Rose as an expiring and DSJ is a better asset than A.Len.