Tank World Order (2.0)

[720]

So has the Tank halted? Has everyone jumped ship? How do we get this thing rolling again?

Unfortunately most people still want to tank. Steelo's new more convoluted polling options have hidden the agenda well.

[Steelo Green]

It's weird how you were certain of Powell's value, now you're saying it's fluid and dependent on the situation and beyond that it's an extremely small sample size.

You mean, when I wrote this:

Also, the DRose trade might be an indication that Powell's return wouldn't be that hot.

Doesn't sound too certain to me.

Yet, when it comes to another Kawhi deal or trading for a lottery pick it will be no problem and you can get it done painlessly and for below market value.

I trust you've been reading over the past few weeks and it's been established that stars, when they want out, tend to go for less than they're worth. Are you disputing this? That would be weird. There's no inconsistency with what I'm saying.

Paul George trade?

How about the Holiday trade?

What was Harden had for that imputes lesser value?

And remember we won with Kawhi who is better and more valuable than them all.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Regardless if the Raptors wanted D.Rose or not, or if Detroit would want A.Len in return... The fact remains you stated DSJ is the equivalent of A.Len... If you can get the quality of player of D.Rose who you equate the same as N.Powell for A.Len and a 2nd round pick, why the hell would you waive that type of an asset for nothing? Or maybe, A.Len/2nd isn't worth anything near what DSJ/2nd is an asset... I also know which scenario makes more sense.

I mean, DSJ was in the GLeague. If Len is worth nothing. And DSJ is worth maybe a 2nd, it's not really a huge gap to me. Regardless, if Norm was going out I would think DSJ and a 2nd would be an awful return and I'd be happy to lose him for nothing if the price to retain him was too high.

Trade value seems to fluctuate by whatever your argument is... The PJ Tucker example highlights this constant shift in your valuation process.

I wasn't the one that said Norm had more value than PJ Tucker at the time. I don't know what kind of value he has, but he currently fits into a type of player that traditionally has gone for 2nds when reaching UFA status. Maybe he has a first value for you because that conveniently fits your desire to build assets immediately?

[Steelo Green]

People really don’t see how good Kawhi was.

He’s an all time great player. Go through the list of all the two time finals MVPs (and he could get more).

We would have to try to emulate getting an all time great player in a trade with the situation that happened last time.

If someone can tell me why the Raptors are the only team who would make a trade for a guy of that caliber (as if Kawhi would be available again) and other teams just stand pat.

I think Denver, Utah, Miami, Boston, Dallas, Atlanta might have better offers and have a better baseline of talent to make such a move. To think we are going to be gifted another deal like that and other teams won’t be in on it is wishful thinking.

[DonDoolie]

okay these options make it more clear for the idiots who keep thinking tWo have this one mindset of selling everything.

i'm kinda torn on the matter. I kinda wanna see how this team does because its the playoffs and I think we can pull a fast one on the Nets in the first round if it ever happened. Definitely won't happen without Lowry.

I definitely want to see the Raptors punk the Nets.

on the other hand, Powell and Lowry are most likely gone and the Raptors have no capspace for new blood on this team if they are back. i think Raptors are at a tipping point where new blood and talent need to replace what we had, which has grown stale (this year).

definitely keep core but we need new talent on this team.

This roster would get obliterated by the nets its an easy sweep.

[TDots97]

I'm quite stuck on the state of this team. I mean the roster is clearly flawed, and we have an aging star that is so important to our core. I wouldn't like to be management right now. Good enough to not bottom out but not good enough to win a playoff round at the very least. Kinda stuck in the middle. We have good complimentary pieces, but are they going to grow that much except OG. Fred/Pascal are entering their prime and I'd be impressed if they repeat the success Deebo and Kyle had. I think we're a serviceable center away from being at least a playoff team, but is it enough? I think we'll have a clearer picture around the trade deadline. Too early to decide if I'm tWo or not. I'm stuck in the middle just like this franchise right now.

[canada_dry]

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

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i mean looking at the past with 20/20 goggles on doesn't mean its going to happen again - like how you're expecting it to go from the way you're using the past as a set up to how the Raptors are going to be.

we might be back in the lottery in 5 years time because this experiment didn't work out because we kept trying to plug all the holes in a sinking ship. I would say this core has a about 4-5 year time line. Siakam and FVV are 27 this year are pretty much the 'cornerstones' of this team right now. OG is the glue guy at 24 (this year) so he might make the the cut in a potential turnover down the road.

what happened with Kawhi, was a fluke, in terms of having the right pieces in place and making a play for a guy who has a chronic knee problem - and having it all work out in the end, by the basketball gods - also due to the injuries to GS. what could have gone right for the Raptors, did. not to take anything away from what the Raptors did but you're basically also gambling on a hunch that it could happen again (very unlikely again - pretty much a once in a generational move there)

I dont mean everything that happened is gonna happen again. That u absolutely cannot control. I mean in acquiring a superstar talent. To do that u HAVE to acquire assets and be ready for the next guy to become available. Teams have done that many times throughout nba history and were able to aquire a superstar through this method. And if anyone can do it again its masai and bobby. Why the doubt all of a sudden? If accomplished Then at least the Raptors are in the conversation fora title. Great organization. Great coach. Great system. Now with a superstar. Thats what u guys want right? Thats what everyone keeps saying . We need a superstar. I think masai is well aware of that. NOONE is claiming 2019 haa to happen again in regards to misfortunes of other teams...u just put that out there yourself.

To reiterate. Theres a few ways to go about getting a superstar.

U could draft one (rare). Which the Raptors are unlikely to have a high enough draft pick to do so. Maybe u get lucky later in drafts. (4 or 5 years down the line is 4.or 5 years down the line...)

U could sign one in free agency. Unlikely for the Raptors

U could trade.for one. Which is the Raptors best chance at it, has been.done many times, and player movement in this era is plentiful. And then u add the fact that u wanna be good enough with what u have left after the trade to be contenders. In order to do that u gotta have a winning culture with enough winning players left over. Like i said the next Beal the KAT will be out there that with our culture and system we can turn into something. Also its its something masai and bobby have proven they can do.

WHY is this option such a horrible one to u guys? I don't get it

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[Skeezo]

I mean, DSJ was in the GLeague.

So was FVV and Siakim... DSJ requested it because he wasn't getting reps with NYK... Thibs doesn't like young players, so what do you want him to do?

If Len is worth nothing. And DSJ is worth maybe a 2nd, it's not really a huge gap to me. Regardless, if Norm was going out I would think DSJ and a 2nd would be an awful return and I'd be happy to lose him for nothing if the price to retain him was too high.

I agree with you, which is why I think Powell is worth a lotto protected first, it would seem you think that should be his minimum value as well... We are in agreement!

What we DON'T agree on is your equation that D.Rose is anywhere near the asset Norm is in the market... If expiring D.Rose can get two 2nd Rd picks, Norm can fetch more.

I wasn't the one that said Norm had more value than PJ Tucker at the time. I don't know what kind of value he has, but he currently fits into a type of player that traditionally has gone for 2nds when reaching UFA status. Maybe he has a first value for you because that conveniently fits your desire to build assets immediately?

Are you really going to dispute that an expiring 28 year old N.Powell who has averaged 15 points per game over the last two seasons in 28 mins is not worth more than an expiring 31 year old PJ Tucker who was averaging less than 7 points in 30 mins per game at the time of the trade? The same PJ Tucker who left us for less than an MLE contract, while you contend that Norm might garner 18-20m per year deal which is nearly double the MLE?

You said PJ for Two 2nds was a GREAT deal. Better than the Vasquez trade was the initial argument YOU made... Now you say, Norm/PJ/Rose regardless of stat differential, age, or quality of team they come from, are ALL just "traditionally the type of players that go for 2nds" when approaching UFA.

Well if that's the case, how the hell can a standard value, run-of-the mill deadline trade be one of Masai's BEST deals, even better than the Vasquez trade that netted us a 1st/2nd? You don't see how you shift your valuations to suit your narrative?

Straight-forward question... If someone tomorrow offers us a lottery protected 1st Rd pick and salary-filler for Norm would you pull the trigger?

[canada_dry]

Warriors got ravaged with injuries and took advantage of the situation. How the heck do u compare that with this? And no it wasnt a tank that was still a retool with the healthy guys on the way. Regardless domt use that example. It doesn't apply unless siakam and fvv go down with serious injuries. Then obviously things change drastically.

Teams that hit outside the top 5 include the miami heat. Who btw never tanked. They refused to. They had late lottery picks while trying to be competitive n got rewarded from it with good karma. Bam n herro were late lottery picks. Most Good teams dont actually just tear things down and tank. They do quick retools. The heat also happen to be a free agency destination but hey. Thats where we differ. We stay competitive and trade for a guy. They stay competitive and hope for a free agent. U know who else wasn't a top 5 pick? Steph curry. Also Klay Thompson ... Yea those warriors u mentioned were built off late lottery picks. Interesting that eh? The utah jazz lost Gordon Hayward and drafted Mitchell late lottery. Continued humming along. Contenders this year. Teams that go into long rebuilds those r teams like the kings. U get picks but u dont know how to win. Habitual losing. U can mess up. Draft someone else instead of luka. The cavs post lebron. The pistons. The knicks. This isn't hard to understand. U add to that the NBA has changed the lottery to DISCOURAGE teams from tanking and encourage being competitive by giving late lottery teams more.of a chance to jump higher in the draft with those lottery balls. Speaking of the knicks, remember when they for the 3rd pick despite being rhe worst team and missed out on both zion AND ja? Ouch.

Im not totally against tanking in certain situations btw. If top guys are missing a year. Ala the spurs or warriors. Sure. Tank. But we dont have these situations right now. Period. We arent that bad and We arent gonna completely tear down what weve built since 2014 ... that's ridiculous. We can retool tho. Its a transition year and im not against taking a step back this year with trading expirings like lowry or Powell .

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[canada_dry]

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

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Teams have tanked for one year yes. I’m not sure why the nomenclature is getting so misunderstood.

Did the Warriors tank? Yes.

Was it one year? Yes.

This draft being deep or not is irrelevant, the true superstar level talents are in the top 5. Hoping you can be that team that hits on the late pick isn’t a great way to go about it. The fact is you will more than likely not hit outside the top five. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are hundreds of role players or players with no career picked in the teens.

And here we go again with Kawhi. The Kawhi situation first of all was involving two lottery picks (Demar and Jak) and also was a situation where we had a player a year off and unknowns about his health or commitment.

What was James Harden just traded for? Yeah, Kawhi would be dealt for more than that. It’s not a replicable situation. I thought people could see after all these trades for Holliday and Harden that to get a player that good will cost us ten fold more than we lucked out with the first time.

Tell me honestly, what would it cost today to trade to acquire Kawhi? Pascal, OG, TD, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps.

Is Kawhi with the rest of this squad a contender? Good team but contender? I think not. Then you have to take into account if he stays and then if he leaves we just traded a bunch of to be unprotected lottery picks and have zero future.

Kawhi trade taught us a lot yes.

KAT, Beal, what would they cost and do they make us contenders?

Do people realize how good Kawhi is/was? The Beals and KATs of the world will cost what Harden did and we still wouldn’t even be better than the top 3-4 teams in the East.

The trade route has changed big time and the cost with all the picks is a heavy price to pay considering we don’t have a Giannis already there, or KD, or Kyrie, or Kawhi (PG situation).

A team like Toronto to make that deal now would gut them so badly and wouldn’t even take us where people think Kawhi did.

Kawhi is a top 15-20 player ever. Beal? KAT? Yeah they maybe help us get to a 50 win team maybe.

And DeMar/poetl lottery standing had nothing to do with their trade value. The fact that they were good is what gave them trade value. Particularly demar. Btw both LATE lottery picks

With the kawhi thing NOONE is saying its totally replicable. Not everything is.gonna be the same. Open ur mind to it tho.

Yea. What did the rockets just get for harden? Were the Raptors in the discussions or not? Yes we were. And thats what u want. When u hear what they originally were asking for, u see where a team like the Raptors could fit in. A young all star level player. A young high potential player. Draft picks. Thats what they were asking for and typically thats what what teams hope for. The Raptors are capable of offering that. Now u go with the nonsense about it costing Pascal og fred and everything. Nah. Masai knows what hes doing. U dont.

Then u go into even if we acquire a beal or kat we still not good enough. Why? Who's to say? Regardless its our best shot. Whats the guarantee a lottery pick even gets to as good as KAT or beal AT ALL? Ur trying to poke holes without questioning ur own tank theory. And Ur forgetting system. Championship pedigree. Great coaching. Regularly playing above talent. Things u want stripped away. We need one superstar to contend. Thats it.

Also my comment above was supposed to be my first response to u.

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[canada_dry]

Warriors fan here. I would tank again this year if we could get Wiseman all over again. He is going to be a franchise player. Raptors should have some sort of plan because if you guys miss out on a franchise player in the draft to flame out early in the playoffs it makes no sense.

The Nets being in the east just makes it all more of a reason to rebuild in my opinion. They are probably going to dominate for the next 3 years. After that they will likely break up and move on. At that point Raptors might have a prime Cade or something, a prime Siakam and FVV as well and be ready to compete.

the issue with this is siakim/fvv are good enough to compete for spots in the east. tho we have tank commander great like baynes, the team still isnt bottom 5 worthy with the roster even without lowry.

EXACTLY. Whats hard to understand about this?

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[Marty_Budda]

okay these options make it more clear for the idiots who keep thinking tWo have this one mindset of selling everything.

i'm kinda torn on the matter. I kinda wanna see how this team does because its the playoffs and I think we can pull a fast one on the Nets in the first round if it ever happened. Definitely won't happen without Lowry.

I definitely want to see the Raptors punk the Nets.

on the other hand, Powell and Lowry are most likely gone and the Raptors have no capspace for new blood on this team if they are back. i think Raptors are at a tipping point where new blood and talent need to replace what we had, which has grown stale (this year).

definitely keep core but we need new talent on this team.

This roster would get obliterated by the nets its an easy sweep.

I don’t think so. Out of all the teams in the top 3/4 in the east the nets would be our best matchup. That’s not to say we’d win but Lowry and Fred wouldn’t be bothered by good perimeter D. No strong inside presence so pascal could honestly average 30+ against them. I think we could take them to 6 games and probably lose.

With that said, screw that and bring us the tank.

[Steelo Green]

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

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Teams have tanked for one year yes. I’m not sure why the nomenclature is getting so misunderstood.

Did the Warriors tank? Yes.

Was it one year? Yes.

This draft being deep or not is irrelevant, the true superstar level talents are in the top 5. Hoping you can be that team that hits on the late pick isn’t a great way to go about it. The fact is you will more than likely not hit outside the top five. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are hundreds of role players or players with no career picked in the teens.

And here we go again with Kawhi. The Kawhi situation first of all was involving two lottery picks (Demar and Jak) and also was a situation where we had a player a year off and unknowns about his health or commitment.

What was James Harden just traded for? Yeah, Kawhi would be dealt for more than that. It’s not a replicable situation. I thought people could see after all these trades for Holliday and Harden that to get a player that good will cost us ten fold more than we lucked out with the first time.

Tell me honestly, what would it cost today to trade to acquire Kawhi? Pascal, OG, TD, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps.

Is Kawhi with the rest of this squad a contender? Good team but contender? I think not. Then you have to take into account if he stays and then if he leaves we just traded a bunch of to be unprotected lottery picks and have zero future.

Kawhi trade taught us a lot yes.

KAT, Beal, what would they cost and do they make us contenders?

Do people realize how good Kawhi is/was? The Beals and KATs of the world will cost what Harden did and we still wouldn’t even be better than the top 3-4 teams in the East.

The trade route has changed big time and the cost with all the picks is a heavy price to pay considering we don’t have a Giannis already there, or KD, or Kyrie, or Kawhi (PG situation).

A team like Toronto to make that deal now would gut them so badly and wouldn’t even take us where people think Kawhi did.

Kawhi is a top 15-20 player ever. Beal? KAT? Yeah they maybe help us get to a 50 win team maybe.

And DeMar/poetl lottery standing had nothing to do with their trade value. The fact that they were good is what gave them trade value. Particularly demar. Btw both LATE lottery picks

With the kawhi thing NOONE is saying its totally replicable. Not everything is.gonna be the same. Open ur mind to it tho.

Yea. What did the rockets just get for harden? Were the Raptors in the discussions or not? Yes we were. And thats what u want. When u hear what they originally were asking for, u see where a team like the Raptors could fit in. A young all star level player. A young high potential player. Draft picks. Thats what they were asking for and typically thats what what teams hope for. The Raptors are capable of offering that. Now u go with the nonsense about it costing Pascal og fred and everything. Nah. Masai knows what hes doing. U dont.

Then u go into even if we acquire a beal or kat we still not good enough. Why? Who's to say? Regardless its our best shot. Whats the guarantee a lottery pick even gets to as good as KAT or beal AT ALL? Ur trying to poke holes without questioning ur own tank theory. And Ur forgetting system. Championship pedigree. Great coaching. Regularly playing above talent. Things u want stripped away. We need one superstar to contend. Thats it.

Also my comment above was supposed to be my first response to u.

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How did them being in the lottery have nothing to do with t?

Jak was a just rookie year finished lottery pick, and Demar who was a lottery pick was developed into a player who at the time was valuable enough, not that it would ever happen again.

First you say nothing will be the same, then you say open my mind, so which one is it?

With regard to Harden, you completely missed the point. This is par for the course, deflecting and switching goalposts.

First of all, there is zero proof we were in the Harden discussion. And I brought Harden up to say look what he went for, so to do a deal of that magnitude would decimate us in the long term for a team that isn't a contender. Harden is not Kawhi and even doing a deal similar to Harden for Kawhi wouldn't make us a contender. Just the reality.

I didn't want us to get in on Harden, if we did it would be Siakam+OG+3-4 picks and 3-4 swaps. That makes zero sense for a team that won't even enter the top 5 into the league, but sure, let's discuss what wasn't argued to deflect from what was actually discussed.

Umm what? What do you mean Pascal and Fred. You're saying we could get Harden without offering OG, Fred, Pascal? No, it would have to be two of them and decimating our draft capital for the next decade for a team that will not win a title.

The Brooklyn Nets have KD, Kyrie and Harden and may not win but what, Fred, Kyle and Harden will?

We won a title with Kawhi Leonard, who is steps above both Beal and KAT? Not sure what you are getting at. No, to deal to get those guys would not make us a contender. Kawhi is a top 3 player to Beal and KAT being top 15 and top 20-25 players are comparable?

Who said the lottery is a guarantee? But with your method you trade the next decade worth of picks for a basic surefire way to not win a title and no guarantee they re-sign here and we are completely stuck without any future with no picks and not a FA destination.

Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left? How about OKC when Durant left? The coaching is key for development of course, but the most important part about basketball is a superstar.

This "we are a superstar away" when we have had one true superstar in 25 years and one season of Vince a that level is the take that makes no sense.

It is so hard to get that superstar, and the cost to get said superstar when you have 0 and now need almost 2 or more to win, would lead to you just being 1-2 years with that player and then in draft hell with no picks and no future.

This team has a lot more work than the vacuum "superstar away".

Again - Kawhi has blinded everyone for a trade that is not replicable to believe it is just that easy, and that the next time a player that good is available that other teams are just going to sit on their hands and not make any moves.

But yes, ignore what you didn't have an answer for and deflect to other things and make up arguments that don't exist.

[Steelo Green]

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Teams have tanked for one year yes. I’m not sure why the nomenclature is getting so misunderstood.

Did the Warriors tank? Yes.

Was it one year? Yes.

This draft being deep or not is irrelevant, the true superstar level talents are in the top 5. Hoping you can be that team that hits on the late pick isn’t a great way to go about it. The fact is you will more than likely not hit outside the top five. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are hundreds of role players or players with no career picked in the teens.

And here we go again with Kawhi. The Kawhi situation first of all was involving two lottery picks (Demar and Jak) and also was a situation where we had a player a year off and unknowns about his health or commitment.

What was James Harden just traded for? Yeah, Kawhi would be dealt for more than that. It’s not a replicable situation. I thought people could see after all these trades for Holliday and Harden that to get a player that good will cost us ten fold more than we lucked out with the first time.

Tell me honestly, what would it cost today to trade to acquire Kawhi? Pascal, OG, TD, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps.

Is Kawhi with the rest of this squad a contender? Good team but contender? I think not. Then you have to take into account if he stays and then if he leaves we just traded a bunch of to be unprotected lottery picks and have zero future.

Kawhi trade taught us a lot yes.

KAT, Beal, what would they cost and do they make us contenders?

Do people realize how good Kawhi is/was? The Beals and KATs of the world will cost what Harden did and we still wouldn’t even be better than the top 3-4 teams in the East.

The trade route has changed big time and the cost with all the picks is a heavy price to pay considering we don’t have a Giannis already there, or KD, or Kyrie, or Kawhi (PG situation).

A team like Toronto to make that deal now would gut them so badly and wouldn’t even take us where people think Kawhi did.

Kawhi is a top 15-20 player ever. Beal? KAT? Yeah they maybe help us get to a 50 win team maybe.

And DeMar/poetl lottery standing had nothing to do with their trade value. The fact that they were good is what gave them trade value. Particularly demar. Btw both LATE lottery picks

With the kawhi thing NOONE is saying its totally replicable. Not everything is.gonna be the same. Open ur mind to it tho.

Yea. What did the rockets just get for harden? Were the Raptors in the discussions or not? Yes we were. And thats what u want. When u hear what they originally were asking for, u see where a team like the Raptors could fit in. A young all star level player. A young high potential player. Draft picks. Thats what they were asking for and typically thats what what teams hope for. The Raptors are capable of offering that. Now u go with the nonsense about it costing Pascal og fred and everything. Nah. Masai knows what hes doing. U dont.

Then u go into even if we acquire a beal or kat we still not good enough. Why? Who's to say? Regardless its our best shot. Whats the guarantee a lottery pick even gets to as good as KAT or beal AT ALL? Ur trying to poke holes without questioning ur own tank theory. And Ur forgetting system. Championship pedigree. Great coaching. Regularly playing above talent. Things u want stripped away. We need one superstar to contend. Thats it.

Also my comment above was supposed to be my first response to u.

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How did them being in the lottery have nothing to do with t?

Jak was a just rookie year finished lottery pick, and Demar who was a lottery pick was developed into a player who at the time was valuable enough, not that it would ever happen again.

First you say nothing will be the same, then you say open my mind, so which one is it?

With regard to Harden, you completely missed the point. This is par for the course, deflecting and switching goalposts.

First of all, there is zero proof we were in the Harden discussion. And I brought Harden up to say look what he went for, so to do a deal of that magnitude would decimate us in the long term for a team that isn't a contender. Harden is not Kawhi and even doing a deal similar to Harden for Kawhi wouldn't make us a contender. Just the reality.

I didn't want us to get in on Harden, if we did it would be Siakam+OG+3-4 picks and 3-4 swaps. That makes zero sense for a team that won't even enter the top 5 into the league, but sure, let's discuss what wasn't argued to deflect from what was actually discussed.

Umm what? What do you mean Pascal and Fred. You're saying we could get Harden without offering OG, Fred, Pascal? No, it would have to be two of them and decimating our draft capital for the next decade for a team that will not win a title.

The Brooklyn Nets have KD, Kyrie and Harden and may not win but what, Fred, Kyle and Harden will?

We won a title with Kawhi Leonard, who is steps above both Beal and KAT? Not sure what you are getting at. No, to deal to get those guys would not make us a contender. Kawhi is a top 3 player to Beal and KAT being top 15 and top 20-25 players are comparable?

Who said the lottery is a guarantee? But with your method you trade the next decade worth of picks for a basic surefire way to not win a title and no guarantee they re-sign here and we are completely stuck without any future with no picks and not a FA destination.

Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left? How about OKC when Durant left? The coaching is key for development of course, but the most important part about basketball is a superstar.

This "we are a superstar away" when we have had one true superstar in 25 years and one season of Vince a that level is the take that makes no sense.

It is so hard to get that superstar, and the cost to get said superstar when you have 0 and now need almost 2 or more to win, would lead to you just being 1-2 years with that player and then in draft hell with no picks and no future.

This team has a lot more work than the vacuum "superstar away".

Again - Kawhi has blinded everyone for a trade that is not replicable to believe it is just that easy, and that the next time a player that good is available that other teams are just going to sit on their hands and not make any moves.

But yes, ignore what you didn't have an answer for and deflect to other things and make up arguments that don't exist.

[Steelo Green]

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

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i mean looking at the past with 20/20 goggles on doesn't mean its going to happen again - like how you're expecting it to go from the way you're using the past as a set up to how the Raptors are going to be.

we might be back in the lottery in 5 years time because this experiment didn't work out because we kept trying to plug all the holes in a sinking ship. I would say this core has a about 4-5 year time line. Siakam and FVV are 27 this year are pretty much the 'cornerstones' of this team right now. OG is the glue guy at 24 (this year) so he might make the the cut in a potential turnover down the road.

what happened with Kawhi, was a fluke, in terms of having the right pieces in place and making a play for a guy who has a chronic knee problem - and having it all work out in the end, by the basketball gods - also due to the injuries to GS. what could have gone right for the Raptors, did. not to take anything away from what the Raptors did but you're basically also gambling on a hunch that it could happen again (very unlikely again - pretty much a once in a generational move there)

I dont mean everything that happened is gonna happen again. That u absolutely cannot control. I mean in acquiring a superstar talent. To do that u HAVE to acquire assets and be ready for the next guy to become available. Teams have done that many times throughout nba history and were able to aquire a superstar through this method. And if anyone can do it again its masai and bobby. Why the doubt all of a sudden? If accomplished Then at least the Raptors are in the conversation fora title. Great organization. Great coach. Great system. Now with a superstar. Thats what u guys want right? Thats what everyone keeps saying . We need a superstar. I think masai is well aware of that. NOONE is claiming 2019 haa to happen again in regards to misfortunes of other teams...u just put that out there yourself.

To reiterate. Theres a few ways to go about getting a superstar.

U could draft one (rare).

Hasn't every superstar in NBA history come from the draft.

[Masai4PM]

Great win tonight

[720]

Great win tonight

Agreed, one step closer to the 6th seed.

[canada_dry]

Teams have tanked for one year yes. I’m not sure why the nomenclature is getting so misunderstood.

Did the Warriors tank? Yes.

Was it one year? Yes.

This draft being deep or not is irrelevant, the true superstar level talents are in the top 5. Hoping you can be that team that hits on the late pick isn’t a great way to go about it. The fact is you will more than likely not hit outside the top five. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are hundreds of role players or players with no career picked in the teens.

And here we go again with Kawhi. The Kawhi situation first of all was involving two lottery picks (Demar and Jak) and also was a situation where we had a player a year off and unknowns about his health or commitment.

What was James Harden just traded for? Yeah, Kawhi would be dealt for more than that. It’s not a replicable situation. I thought people could see after all these trades for Holliday and Harden that to get a player that good will cost us ten fold more than we lucked out with the first time.

Tell me honestly, what would it cost today to trade to acquire Kawhi? Pascal, OG, TD, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps.

Is Kawhi with the rest of this squad a contender? Good team but contender? I think not. Then you have to take into account if he stays and then if he leaves we just traded a bunch of to be unprotected lottery picks and have zero future.

Kawhi trade taught us a lot yes.

KAT, Beal, what would they cost and do they make us contenders?

Do people realize how good Kawhi is/was? The Beals and KATs of the world will cost what Harden did and we still wouldn’t even be better than the top 3-4 teams in the East.

The trade route has changed big time and the cost with all the picks is a heavy price to pay considering we don’t have a Giannis already there, or KD, or Kyrie, or Kawhi (PG situation).

A team like Toronto to make that deal now would gut them so badly and wouldn’t even take us where people think Kawhi did.

Kawhi is a top 15-20 player ever. Beal? KAT? Yeah they maybe help us get to a 50 win team maybe.

And DeMar/poetl lottery standing had nothing to do with their trade value. The fact that they were good is what gave them trade value. Particularly demar. Btw both LATE lottery picks

With the kawhi thing NOONE is saying its totally replicable. Not everything is.gonna be the same. Open ur mind to it tho.

Yea. What did the rockets just get for harden? Were the Raptors in the discussions or not? Yes we were. And thats what u want. When u hear what they originally were asking for, u see where a team like the Raptors could fit in. A young all star level player. A young high potential player. Draft picks. Thats what they were asking for and typically thats what what teams hope for. The Raptors are capable of offering that. Now u go with the nonsense about it costing Pascal og fred and everything. Nah. Masai knows what hes doing. U dont.

Then u go into even if we acquire a beal or kat we still not good enough. Why? Who's to say? Regardless its our best shot. Whats the guarantee a lottery pick even gets to as good as KAT or beal AT ALL? Ur trying to poke holes without questioning ur own tank theory. And Ur forgetting system. Championship pedigree. Great coaching. Regularly playing above talent. Things u want stripped away. We need one superstar to contend. Thats it.

Also my comment above was supposed to be my first response to u.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How did them being in the lottery have nothing to do with t?

Jak was a just rookie year finished lottery pick, and Demar who was a lottery pick was developed into a player who at the time was valuable enough, not that it would ever happen again.

First you say nothing will be the same, then you say open my mind, so which one is it?

With regard to Harden, you completely missed the point. This is par for the course, deflecting and switching goalposts.

First of all, there is zero proof we were in the Harden discussion. And I brought Harden up to say look what he went for, so to do a deal of that magnitude would decimate us in the long term for a team that isn't a contender. Harden is not Kawhi and even doing a deal similar to Harden for Kawhi wouldn't make us a contender. Just the reality.

I didn't want us to get in on Harden, if we did it would be Siakam+OG+3-4 picks and 3-4 swaps. That makes zero sense for a team that won't even enter the top 5 into the league, but sure, let's discuss what wasn't argued to deflect from what was actually discussed.

Umm what? What do you mean Pascal and Fred. You're saying we could get Harden without offering OG, Fred, Pascal? No, it would have to be two of them and decimating our draft capital for the next decade for a team that will not win a title.

The Brooklyn Nets have KD, Kyrie and Harden and may not win but what, Fred, Kyle and Harden will?

We won a title with Kawhi Leonard, who is steps above both Beal and KAT? Not sure what you are getting at. No, to deal to get those guys would not make us a contender. Kawhi is a top 3 player to Beal and KAT being top 15 and top 20-25 players are comparable?

Who said the lottery is a guarantee? But with your method you trade the next decade worth of picks for a basic surefire way to not win a title and no guarantee they re-sign here and we are completely stuck without any future with no picks and not a FA destination.

Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left? How about OKC when Durant left? The coaching is key for development of course, but the most important part about basketball is a superstar.

This "we are a superstar away" when we have had one true superstar in 25 years and one season of Vince a that level is the take that makes no sense.

It is so hard to get that superstar, and the cost to get said superstar when you have 0 and now need almost 2 or more to win, would lead to you just being 1-2 years with that player and then in draft hell with no picks and no future.

This team has a lot more work than the vacuum "superstar away".

Again - Kawhi has blinded everyone for a trade that is not replicable to believe it is just that easy, and that the next time a player that good is available that other teams are just going to sit on their hands and not make any moves.

But yes, ignore what you didn't have an answer for and deflect to other things and make up arguments that don't exist.

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point . I said open your mind to the possibility that it doesn't have to be a kawhi trade. U proceeded to rant about how the kawhi trade was unique lmao. We don't need a top 3 player to be contenders. Imagine a Bradley beal on last years raptors squad? Guess what? Favorites to make the finals. Ur claim that only a guy like Kawhi is worth it and that makes hunting a great player through a trade pointless is ludicrous. ...lol

No i didnt say we wouldn't have to give any of our core away. Obviously that would be necessary. Read better. It still keeps part.of.the core intact with an upgrade of whichever piece we traded away.

And yes there is proof that we were in discussions. Brian windhorst and zach lowe made.mention of it after rhe fact, and kevin O'Connor did too if im not mistaken. So thats more misinformation ur spreading.

"Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left?"

Lol @ its overrated. Not even worth talking further after that . U want the teams destruction. LOL @ lebron comparison..no.the cavs didnt have it after lebron left. BUT WE HAD IT AND SHOWED IT AFTER KAWHI left. Tf??? Another silly comparison just like trying to compare the warriors situation to ours...lol

And again most importantly. As tonight has proven n im gonna say it in caps not as a disrespect but for emphasis. WE ARE NOT BAD ENOUGH TO TANK. GET OVER IT

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Steelo Green]

And DeMar/poetl lottery standing had nothing to do with their trade value. The fact that they were good is what gave them trade value. Particularly demar. Btw both LATE lottery picks

With the kawhi thing NOONE is saying its totally replicable. Not everything is.gonna be the same. Open ur mind to it tho.

Yea. What did the rockets just get for harden? Were the Raptors in the discussions or not? Yes we were. And thats what u want. When u hear what they originally were asking for, u see where a team like the Raptors could fit in. A young all star level player. A young high potential player. Draft picks. Thats what they were asking for and typically thats what what teams hope for. The Raptors are capable of offering that. Now u go with the nonsense about it costing Pascal og fred and everything. Nah. Masai knows what hes doing. U dont.

Then u go into even if we acquire a beal or kat we still not good enough. Why? Who's to say? Regardless its our best shot. Whats the guarantee a lottery pick even gets to as good as KAT or beal AT ALL? Ur trying to poke holes without questioning ur own tank theory. And Ur forgetting system. Championship pedigree. Great coaching. Regularly playing above talent. Things u want stripped away. We need one superstar to contend. Thats it.

Also my comment above was supposed to be my first response to u.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How did them being in the lottery have nothing to do with t?

Jak was a just rookie year finished lottery pick, and Demar who was a lottery pick was developed into a player who at the time was valuable enough, not that it would ever happen again.

First you say nothing will be the same, then you say open my mind, so which one is it?

With regard to Harden, you completely missed the point. This is par for the course, deflecting and switching goalposts.

First of all, there is zero proof we were in the Harden discussion. And I brought Harden up to say look what he went for, so to do a deal of that magnitude would decimate us in the long term for a team that isn't a contender. Harden is not Kawhi and even doing a deal similar to Harden for Kawhi wouldn't make us a contender. Just the reality.

I didn't want us to get in on Harden, if we did it would be Siakam+OG+3-4 picks and 3-4 swaps. That makes zero sense for a team that won't even enter the top 5 into the league, but sure, let's discuss what wasn't argued to deflect from what was actually discussed.

Umm what? What do you mean Pascal and Fred. You're saying we could get Harden without offering OG, Fred, Pascal? No, it would have to be two of them and decimating our draft capital for the next decade for a team that will not win a title.

The Brooklyn Nets have KD, Kyrie and Harden and may not win but what, Fred, Kyle and Harden will?

We won a title with Kawhi Leonard, who is steps above both Beal and KAT? Not sure what you are getting at. No, to deal to get those guys would not make us a contender. Kawhi is a top 3 player to Beal and KAT being top 15 and top 20-25 players are comparable?

Who said the lottery is a guarantee? But with your method you trade the next decade worth of picks for a basic surefire way to not win a title and no guarantee they re-sign here and we are completely stuck without any future with no picks and not a FA destination.

Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left? How about OKC when Durant left? The coaching is key for development of course, but the most important part about basketball is a superstar.

This "we are a superstar away" when we have had one true superstar in 25 years and one season of Vince a that level is the take that makes no sense.

It is so hard to get that superstar, and the cost to get said superstar when you have 0 and now need almost 2 or more to win, would lead to you just being 1-2 years with that player and then in draft hell with no picks and no future.

This team has a lot more work than the vacuum "superstar away".

Again - Kawhi has blinded everyone for a trade that is not replicable to believe it is just that easy, and that the next time a player that good is available that other teams are just going to sit on their hands and not make any moves.

But yes, ignore what you didn't have an answer for and deflect to other things and make up arguments that don't exist.

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point . I said open your mind to the possibility that it doesn't have to be a kawhi trade. U proceeded to rant about how the kawhi trade was unique lmao. We don't need a top 3 player to be contenders. Imagine a Bradley beal on last years raptors squad? Guess what? Favorites to make the finals. Ur claim that only a guy like Kawhi is worth it and that makes hunting a great player through a trade pointless is ludicrous. ...lol

No i didnt say we wouldn't have to give any of our core away. Obviously that would be necessary. Read better. It still keeps part.of.the core intact with an upgrade of whichever piece we traded away.

And yes there is proof that we were in discussions. Brian windhorst and zach lowe made.mention of it after rhe fact, and kevin O'Connor did too if im not mistaken. So thats more misinformation ur spreading.

"Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left?"

Lol @ its overrated. Not even worth talking further after that . U want the teams destruction. LOL @ lebron comparison..no.the cavs didnt have it after lebron left. BUT WE HAD IT AND SHOWED IT AFTER KAWHI left. Tf??? Another dumb comparison just like trying to compare the warriors situation to ours...lol

And again most importantly. As tonight has proven n im gonna say it in caps not as a disrespect but for emphasis. WE ARE NOT BAD ENOUGH TO TANK. GET OVER IT

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Swing and a miss. Thanks for playing though.

[720]

Any deal centered around Lowry to the sixers should AT THE MINIMUM feature Tyrese Maxey AND multiple 1st round picks (expecting 2 if Jrue Holliday can land 3).

Lowry makes the sixers instant finals contenders. Can you imagine Lowry with Embiid and Simmons by his side? They’re winning the chip.

We’re GIFTING the sixers the championship. The least they can do is give us Maxey and a couple future firsts (that won’t even be high lotto picks).

Honestly wish the Heat had some 1st rounders to trade us. Maybe we hold onto Lowry until the deadline and some mystery team pops up.