Tank World Order (2.0)

[Pooh_Jeter]

With the imminent Lowry deal it's going to be an interesting crossroads. It could be a little bit like the Rudy Gay trade in that it fills some holes on the roster or does Bobby put his imprint on this team and go for more of a refresh?

He signed the extension, hopefully he has more of an eye for the future.

[Skeezo]

I suppose so, but do you have any specific teams in mind? I would think that the risk of him walking as UFA would scare teams off from coughing up a 1st. That's usually why bad teams aren't buyers at the deadline for expiring deals. It's further complicated by teams not knowing what they might get with their lotto picks. I'll buy that premise, though.

I haven't researched N.Powell trades as much as I have looked at Lowry possibilities. However, as you kind of alluded, a 27/28 yr old SG with HEAVY playoff experience that can either still grow with a bad to up & coming team as a starter, or easily fit in as a key reserve for a contender should generate a fair amount of interest.

You and I both know how trades go with players on expiring deals. There will be plenty of agent involvement and permission given by the Raptors for those parties to discuss the viability of re-signing and at what approximate numbers before making the trade.

I'm confused, is this just to defend the Vasquez deal? If another team offered 2 2nds for Norm, that would be great value for them, because 2nds aren't worth much. You're more likely to get something good out of the player than the picks. And, anyone can offer 2nds without it bankrupting the development squad.

Not just to defend the Vasquez deal, but to illustrate how you have a tendency to bend your logic making to make it fit whatever your current argument is. It makes it difficult to follow your decision-making process when I compare it to past conversations and debate.

I certainly wouldn't compare players to cars. Maybe that's why you would do Lowry dirty?

The example is to demonstrate your logic making, not a comparison of cars to players. However, let's not get all self-righteous and virtuous, like we both don't understand player contracts are tradable assets that are owned by the club. You could give "two F's" that M.Gasol didn't want to be traded. You only cared that he was the final piece to help win us a Championship. The fact is, you want to give ONE player (Lowry), WAY more "power & privilege" over all the other "Plebs" (I mean players). That doesn't seem very "humanist" or "egalitarian" to me, but rather "elitist."

I want to trade Lowry to a contender where he gets a half-a-year try-out with a new team to see if it fits and can win a Championship. If it does fit, Lowry is not only more confident about re-signing with the new team, he can also get paid more than the MLE to stay there. Alternatively, if it doesn't work out, he gets the option to go to another contending team for likely the MLE (or team with cap space) which is all he is promised if the Raptors don't move him.

I don't call that doing him dirty...

Oubre Jr might be more comparable, although he is several years younger than Powell and started the entire season for Phoenix. And it would entail the entire season, not a partial season. Also, it's worth noting the 1st is top 20 protected and will likely convey to a second. If I'm not mistaken they made the trade after Klay went down, so they may have baked the odds in of being a lower playoff seed team. So if Norm gets us 20-30 in the first or a potential high 2nd (GS will give up Minnesota's), I don't think that's a good trade for the Raptors v. seeing more reps with him as a starter.

Oubre is 2yrs younger than Powell... Powell is 5 years younger than D.Rose... Again, do you not equate a difference in the quality of stats when one player is playing for championship contending team versus others who put up their stats with perennial basement teams? Norm would be a starter in Phoenix.

I want at minimum a lottery protected 1st Rd pick (that doesn't convene to a 2nd) for N.Powell, and I would push until the bitter end of the trade deadline to get it... During that process, I would be in contact with Norm's agent determining his interest level/$$ figure for returning. If Raps haven't gone gangbusters, there is no mutual understanding on a 12m-14m mark, and the very best I can get is Two 2nds Round picks, I probably pull the trigger. I'm just not going to be tricked into paying Norman 20m per year deal because he scored 20 points a game and we were still a below .500 team. (and that's WITH Lowry) Far better ways I can use 20m in space because Norm at that price isn't magically worth more than 1st Rd pick. Hope that clarifies for you.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I haven't researched N.Powell trades as much as I have looked at Lowry possibilities. However, as you kind of alluded, a 27/28 yr old SG with HEAVY playoff experience that can either still grow with a bad to up & coming team as a starter, or easily fit in as a key reserve for a contender should generate a fair amount of interest.

You and I both know how trades go with players on expiring deals. There will be plenty of agent involvement and permission given by the Raptors for those parties to discuss the viability of re-signing and at what approximate numbers before making the trade.

Usually bad and up and coming teams are relying on their youth and not making too many long-term big money promises, because they have their own core that needs to be/is in the process of being paid for.

Sometimes there are tacit agreements, but not always. Andre Drummond went for 2nds last year. Doesn't look like he'll be in Cleveland for long. The firsts that changed hands were for Marcus Morris, already averaging 20ppg as a starter for the Knicks. And then Covington, who had term on his deal.

Oubre is 2yrs younger than Powell... Powell is 5 years younger than D.Rose... Again, do you not equate a difference in the quality of stats when one player is playing for championship contending team versus others who put up their stats with perennial basement teams? Norm would be a starter in Phoenix.

Age could have been a factor, a full year could have been a factor, the article that turns it into a 2nd if Oubre doesn't lead them to a top 10 team could have been a factor. Loads of consider with that trade. Do we factor in that Rose is a better scorer and playmaker than both of them? Iso skills have extra value in the playoffs.

I want at minimum a lottery protected 1st Rd pick (that doesn't convene to a 2nd) for N.Powell, and I would push until the bitter end of the trade deadline to get it... During that process, I would be in contact with Norm's agent determining his interest level/$$ figure for returning. If Raps haven't gone gangbusters, there is no mutual understanding on a 12m-14m mark, and the very best I can get is Two 2nds Round picks, I probably pull the trigger. I'm just not going to be tricked into paying Norman 20m per year deal because he scored 20 points a game and we were still a below .500 team. Far better ways I can use 20m in space because Norm at that price isn't magically worth more than 1st Rd pick. Hope that clarifies for you.

Didn't he score 20 a game when he was starting and we were contending last year? Isn't this you?

Again, do you not equate a difference in the quality of stats when one player is playing for championship contending team

You think Norm is essentially fool's gold in one sense, and worth a guaranteed lottery protected pick in another where every team, bad, good and inbetween will have an interest... but the Raptors shouldn't.

[Preliudas]

Option 2

[Johnny Bball]

People genuinely believe the Raptors will make it out of the East?

I don't "believe" they will win the East. I just think they have a fighting chance, not unlike Miami's chance at this time last year. I'm not convinced that any of the other teams in the East have proved that they're so super amazing.

Didn't you know....It needs to be a statistical impossibility (0.00% chance) to make the finals for it to be considered correct. You can't have any percent chance >0, that's just confusing.

[canada_dry]

The Hawks argument is so wrong-headed. Let me clarify some details here:

1) The 60 win Hawks team got swept by LeBron. Every Eastern team in that entire stretch lost to LeBron. Didn't matter if they had top 5 picks aplenty or not. So the Hawks only course of action was to get LeBron. We know that LeBron chose his destination. We know that LeBron is unlikely to choose Atlanta as a free agent destination, and also unlikely to choose Toronto. Neither team needs to be clowned for this, let alone their fans for wanting to take on the challenge of upsetting LeBron.
2) The Hawks tanked for 8 seasons. They had 4 top 6 picks in succession. They did exactly what tankers want them to do. Maximize the odds for a LeBron-like player. Turns out LeBron wasn't in any of those drafts. And none of the players they could have drafted have been the best player on a title winner, either.
3) That 60 win Hawk team was the best team that franchise has ever had in the 50 years they've been in Atlanta. This is objectively a good result for a franchise.

You're right. The hawks comparison is ridiculous.

This guy loves making false equivalents and silly comparisons. Its his thing.

Comparing the current Raptors situation to the 2020 warriors with ALL their injuries.

Comparing the post lebron cavs to the 2020 post kawhi Raptors as a way to argue culture DOESN'T matter.

This comparison to the hawks .

All bad.

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[Steelo Green]

People genuinely believe the Raptors will make it out of the East?

I don't "believe" they will win the East. I just think they have a fighting chance, not unlike Miami's chance at this time last year. I'm not convinced that any of the other teams in the East have proved that they're so super amazing.

Didn't you know....It needs to be a statistical impossibility (0.00% chance) to make the finals for it to be considered correct. You can't have any percent chance >0, that's just confusing.

Fair point.

I think that the Wolves have a chance to make the finals too by that logic.

Again - this will all be answered in the playoffs when this team is bounced in round one.

[Steelo Green]

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point . I said open your mind to the possibility that it doesn't have to be a kawhi trade. U proceeded to rant about how the kawhi trade was unique lmao. We don't need a top 3 player to be contenders. Imagine a Bradley beal on last years raptors squad? Guess what? Favorites to make the finals. Ur claim that only a guy like Kawhi is worth it and that makes hunting a great player through a trade pointless is ludicrous. ...lol

No i didnt say we wouldn't have to give any of our core away. Obviously that would be necessary. Read better. It still keeps part.of.the core intact with an upgrade of whichever piece we traded away.

And yes there is proof that we were in discussions. Brian windhorst and zach lowe made.mention of it after rhe fact, and kevin O'Connor did too if im not mistaken. So thats more misinformation ur spreading.

"Championship pedigree and coaching is overrated. Did the Cavs have the same pedigree when Lebron left?"

Lol @ its overrated. Not even worth talking further after that . U want the teams destruction. LOL @ lebron comparison..no.the cavs didnt have it after lebron left. BUT WE HAD IT AND SHOWED IT AFTER KAWHI left. Tf??? Another dumb comparison just like trying to compare the warriors situation to ours...lol

And again most importantly. As tonight has proven n im gonna say it in caps not as a disrespect but for emphasis. WE ARE NOT BAD ENOUGH TO TANK. GET OVER IT

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Swing and a miss. Thanks for playing though.

Ah the classic "i cant respond to that. So im gonna act like im above responding to that." Lol

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Not really.

When fictitious arguments are brought up, and then I have to defend what I didn't say, and then arguments that are made to switch goal posts are made, then it is the end of any useful discussion.

[Steelo Green]

Back to real losses and fake wins. So much for the poll.

Who said it was a fake win?

Our record is 11-13. No need to get into fake wins or losses.

We also have a lovely 3-10 record against teams above 0.500 and are now 16th on D.

Def hallmarks of a team that will do damage in the playoffs.

35-37 Brooklyn Nets were supposed to beat the 53-19 Raptors, right?

I said with Levert they COULD sure, but again, he didn't play and Harris got hurt so, series shifted.

I did also say that there was no chance we beat Boston and Pascal and Fred would be our worst players, so which is it. Because everyone here was sure we would beat Boston, so pick your poison as to what you're arguing and stick to it.

[Steelo Green]

The Hawks argument is so wrong-headed. Let me clarify some details here:

1) The 60 win Hawks team got swept by LeBron. Every Eastern team in that entire stretch lost to LeBron. Didn't matter if they had top 5 picks aplenty or not. So the Hawks only course of action was to get LeBron. We know that LeBron chose his destination. We know that LeBron is unlikely to choose Atlanta as a free agent destination, and also unlikely to choose Toronto. Neither team needs to be clowned for this, let alone their fans for wanting to take on the challenge of upsetting LeBron.
2) The Hawks tanked for 8 seasons. They had 4 top 6 picks in succession. They did exactly what tankers want them to do. Maximize the odds for a LeBron-like player. Turns out LeBron wasn't in any of those drafts. And none of the players they could have drafted have been the best player on a title winner, either.
3) That 60 win Hawk team was the best team that franchise has ever had in the 50 years they've been in Atlanta. This is objectively a good result for a franchise.

You're right. The hawks comparison is ridiculous.

This guy loves making false equivalents and silly comparisons. Its his thing.

Comparing the current Raptors situation to the 2020 warriors with ALL their injuries.

Comparing the post lebron cavs to the 2020 post kawhi Raptors as a way to argue culture DOESN'T matter.

This comparison to the hawks .

All bad.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

What language are you speaking?

[Steelo Green]

When did the Hawks tank for 8 seasons lol

The Hawks made the playoffs for a decade until 2015, then they had some meh years, drafted Trae two years ago, and added to that and now have a good young squad. They also did have a potential all time great player in Luka but picked Trae.

The Hawks had a longer playoff run than we did but are seen as a joke franchise. Their winning culture led them to nothing and now with Trae they have a higher ceiling if they add the right pieces than they ever did in their ten year "Winning culture" run.

A teams personal best shouldn't be the standard, the standard should be to be a contender. That is why we applauded Demar and Kyle and their failures because this is the best we had ever seen, but that was the wrong approach. We luckily lucked into Kawhi but to go down another Demar and Kyle path? No thanks.

[Skeezo]

Usually bad and up and coming teams are relying on their youth and not making too many long-term big money promises, because they have their own core that needs to be/is in the process of being paid for.

Sometimes there are tacit agreements, but not always. Andre Drummond went for 2nds last year. Doesn't look like he'll be in Cleveland for long. The firsts that changed hands were for Marcus Morris, already averaging 20ppg as a starter for the Knicks. And then Covington, who had term on his deal.

Drummond isn't a viable comparable... Guards are more valuable then traditional big-men in today's NBA, but you know that when you downplayed JV's value earlier. Changing it up for the narrative again

Marcus Morris plays for the NYK? I thought he was a 20pt scorer on a BAD NYK team making 9m per on an EXPIRING deal last year. The Knicks then SOLD HIGH and he was traded (half-way through the season) to the LAC for not just a 1st Rd pick, but also Mo Harkless, 2nd Rd pick, and 1st Rd pick swap (doubtful that convenes)... He then signed a multi year contract for 15m per year, not 20m with the LAC. Guess it must have been one of those few times, a "wink and nod" agreement is made on what the terms might look like before making the trade... Unfortunately, MMJ went to a contending Clippers where you have seen his point total cut in half, he's not averaging 20 points anymore... That's why I say N.Powell >>>> D.Rose/K.Oubre who put up empty stats on BAD teams.

Not a very good example I must say.

Age could have been a factor, a full year could have been a factor, the article that turns it into a 2nd if Oubre doesn't lead them to a top 10 team could have been a factor. Loads of consider with that trade. Do we factor in that Rose is a better scorer and playmaker than both of them? Iso skills have extra value in the playoffs.

All these factors you seem to come up with to reason why Powell & Lowry won't fetch anything in market, even in comparison to WORSE players... As a result, we shouldn't trade them... Well how do we get better then, ATLTimeKeeper?

"We trust that Masai/Bobby is able to find value for depressed players, as they have in the past," I believe is what YOU said...

So Masai can somehow work wonders with Bembry, Watson, Baynes, and McCaw in the market, but he can't get sh#t for Powell and Lowry?

Didn't he score 20 a game when he was starting and we were contending last year? Isn't this you?

Why did you bring up Oubre as a starter as a difference maker between him and Norm, if now you also consider Norm a starter last year?
Shifting arguments again

Norm started 26 games last year, when guys were injured, he wasn't a starter... Did we magically get Gasol/Ibaka back and are contending again, and nobody told me? Did Lowry become 2-3 years younger? We were paying Norm 10m to be a key reserve on a contender, not 20m to be a starter on an 8th seed... That's how you become a contender by using good cap management... You don't pay players 20m to be 4th on your depth chart, when they should really be 7th. Why do you think draft picks and rookie scale contracts are GOLD!

You think Norm is essentially fool's gold in one sense, and worth a guaranteed lottery protected pick in another where every team, bad, good and inbetween will have an interest... but the Raptors shouldn't.

Lmao! Much more consistent in my view then you are my friend...

I think someone of Norm Powell's caliber (27yr old, 6th Man/Borderline Starter) as an 11m expiring contract is worth a lottery protected 1st Rd pick... I think Norm Powell's AAV is 12m-14m per season, and at that price I would re-sign because I think he is STILL worth a 1st Round pick...

I think Norm is worth more in trade than both D.Rose (DSJ/2nd Rd) & K.Oubre (Protect 1st Rd 1-20) currently, BUT at a 20m price tag he is NOT... You on the other hand, don't think Norm can fetch anymore in trade than D.Rose/K.Oubre currently, yet magically, at twice the price he's worth more.

[mihaic]

Just an observation for the TWO people. Trading Lowry might make us better depending what we get back, and also because the 2 small PG lineup replaced by FVV/Norm might improve us. Also Lowry was kind of lazy on D this year (well at least compared to his normal standard).

Have you guys considered that. Trading Lowry may kill the tank alltogether.

[PhilBlackson]

Just an observation for the TWO people. Trading Lowry might make us better depending what we get back, and also because the 2 small PG lineup replaced by FVV/Norm might improve us. Also Lowry was kind of lazy on D this year (well at least compared to his normal standard).

Have you guys considered that. Trading Lowry may kill the tank alltogether.

What have you been watching?!?

There have been multiple games this season where Kyle was CLEARLY our best player on the court (arguably still is overall) and in fact without him would've lost several more games than we have.

A team that's trading for him will be doing so to win NOW which means the players coming our way don't impact winning as much now...it's more about FUTURE and Kyle selling his home should get through to anti-tankers loud and clear, he's not intending to be a part of that so let's not lose him for nothing and also not waste the present by squandering a chance to take a step back, in order to take tWo forward. That's the bottomline.

[Skeezo]

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point . I said open your mind to the possibility that it doesn't have to be a kawhi trade..... Imagine a Bradley Beal on last years raptors squad? Guess what? Favorites to make the finals.

Are we last years squad, right now? Did we not lose Ibaka and Gasol for NOTHING without being adequately replaced? We ACTUALLY need to replace Leonard, Ibaka, and Gasol. Let's live in the present.

No i didnt say we wouldn't have to give any of our core away. Obviously that would be necessary. Read better. It still keeps part.of.the core intact with an upgrade of whichever piece we traded away.

Okay, let's delve into fantasy world where the roads are made of cotton candy and we are somehow able to extract B.Beal for MINIMAL rotational assets (because we need them to compete) and draft picks... Now, I don't think we would ever get Washington to bite on this because there are teams that could give superior offers, but I want to "open my mind" to your idealist possibilities.

Raptors Trade: N.Powell, McCaw, Baynes, and Two first Rd Picks
Wizards Trade: B.Beal

Raptors Rotation

C Boucher / ???
PF Siakim / Johnson /
SF OG / Bembry /Watanbe
SG Beal / Davis / Watson
PG Lowry / FVV / Flynn

Do you really think that team can compete with LAL,LAC, BKN, MIL or PHI? We will get DESTROYED in the front court. We don't have have any surplus large contracts to make a trade for Drummond or comparable BIG ... We would have no draft picks to trade either unless we want to start trading away 2025 First Round picks... Truth is we probably had to give up the 2025 pick too, just to get Beal.. Nope, the best we can do is hope that a BIG hits the buyout market to shore up our front court and mediocre bench (outside of FVV)

So even after a HIGHWAY ROBBERY of Trade that will NEVER happen where we gave scraps and a couple of picks for the BEST possible player in the market, we still aren't competing... Not to mention, we still might lose Lowry next year for nothing too...

Sorry, I opened up my mind, it's just not a good plan... Me, like the majority of people in the poll say it's time to turn the page... It's not about TANKING and purposely trying to lose... No need to generalize people into the extreme tanking box, the poll says otherwise... it's simply about selling off assets that are about to expire before we lose them for nothing (Lowry/Powell).

[Dr Positivity]

Trade Lowry yes, but no tank. The team is the definition of a superstar player away and one wants out every few months these days.

[Johnny Bball]

I don't "believe" they will win the East. I just think they have a fighting chance, not unlike Miami's chance at this time last year. I'm not convinced that any of the other teams in the East have proved that they're so super amazing.

Didn't you know....It needs to be a statistical impossibility (0.00% chance) to make the finals for it to be considered correct. You can't have any percent chance >0, that's just confusing.

Fair point.

I think that the Wolves have a chance to make the finals too by that logic.

Again - this will all be answered in the playoffs when this team is bounced in round one.

Not surprised one bit you didn't understand the point. And that it has nothing to do with whatever you think is "logic".

[ATLTimekeeper]

Who said it was a fake win?

Our record is 11-13. No need to get into fake wins or losses.

We also have a lovely 3-10 record against teams above 0.500 and are now 16th on D.

Def hallmarks of a team that will do damage in the playoffs.

35-37 Brooklyn Nets were supposed to beat the 53-19 Raptors, right?

I said with Levert they COULD sure, but again, he didn't play and Harris got hurt so, series shifted.

I did also say that there was no chance we beat Boston and Pascal and Fred would be our worst players, so which is it. Because everyone here was sure we would beat Boston, so pick your poison as to what you're arguing and stick to it.

Right, you said they could. And, again, Lavert did play. All 4 games, 35 minutes a night. Harris didn't get hurt, he left the bubble because his mother was dying after game 2. The series was 2-0. We might have different dictionaries, but 2-0 to 4-0 doesn't often indicate a "shift." That you've made the same mistaken comment twice in a few days could mean you can't remember, misremember, or perhaps didn't even watch. The prediction about the Celtic series has no bearing on the bold prediction on the previous series, other than you tend to think negative things about the Raptors consistently, whether they seem reasonable or not.

If the sub.500 Nets can upset the Raptors based on a provisional player's appearance (who was always going to play), according to you, then it's completely acceptable for Raptor fans to think the same kind of upset could occur. I'm sure these posts feel good leaving your hands every time, like a Dion Waiters jump shot, but you're catching nothing but air here.

btw, the Atlanta Hawks missed the playoffs from 1999-2007. 8 seasons. Plenty of high lotto picks in that 8.

[ATLTimekeeper]

All these factors you seem to come up with to reason why Powell & Lowry won't fetch anything in market, even in comparison to WORSE players... As a result, we shouldn't trade them... Well how do we get better then, ATLTimeKeeper?

"We trust that Masai/Bobby is able to find value for depressed players, as they have in the past," I believe is what YOU said...

So Masai can somehow work wonders with Bembry, Watson, Baynes, and McCaw in the market, but he can't get sh#t for Powell and Lowry?

I can see you're starting to become unglued a bit, and that's not what either of us want, so I'll clarify:

We both know that

1) I wouldn't accept a lotto protected first for Powell. I'd rather look at signing him in the off-season and add him to the core. I've also said that if the Raptors season is completely lost and they're bad, I wouldn't re-sign Powell. That might take a full season to discover, though. I'm willing to burn the asset and use the space for something else. I was pretty clear that I used Rose as a sample of what the market might be for Powell right now.

2) Lowry could have way more value, but again I'm not expecting a significant haul and if it's just for the sake of capitalizing on his worth I'd rather watch him suit up for one last ride. It also depends on what he wants.

3) The part about depressed value pertains to stars, and that's because when stars move their value tends to be depressed. This isn't just because of Masai and Bobby's ability to win trades, although that should give us confidence, but just the tendency. I don't know what the comment about Bembry, McCaw and Baynes working magic really means, but I wouldn't expect them to be traded as a principle for a star. It could be OG in a couple of years as the principle piece, it could be Fred, could be Siakam, could be a re-signed Norm.

[vini_vidi_vici]