Lets talk Zach Lavine

[kodo]

If you squint, it's hard to tell Lavine apart from Curry by stats.

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Steph : 29 ppg 5.9 apg 5.4 rpg  56% 2P  42.9% 3P  65.6% TS
Lavine: 28 ppg 5.3 apg 5.3 rpg  59% 2P  42.5% 3P  65.2% TS

[JohnnyTapwater]

If you squint, it's hard to tell Lavine apart from Curry by stats.

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Steph : 29 ppg 5.9 apg 5.4 rpg  56% 2P  42.9% 3P  65.6% TS
Lavine: 28 ppg 5.3 apg 5.3 rpg  59% 2P  42.5% 3P  65.2% TS

Goes to show you how much winning basketball matters - and winning basketball is just playing high IQ basketball when the game is on the line.

I love that Lavine is making strides in the right direction - the only way I'd trade him is if GS trades Wiseman and that Minn pick.

[LateNight]

"I'll only trade this diamond ring for another ring of unknown quality and at least two lottery tickets"

[DroseReturnChi]

If you squint, it's hard to tell Lavine apart from Curry by stats.

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Steph : 29 ppg 5.9 apg 5.4 rpg  56% 2P  42.9% 3P  65.6% TS
Lavine: 28 ppg 5.3 apg 5.3 rpg  59% 2P  42.5% 3P  65.2% TS

Thats why raw stats suck and you intentionally missed TO which is literally the most imp stat due to them being lead guards.
You can sugarcoat Lavine but the fact is he will not make the all star which puts him worse than DAR reputation wise.
I dont even care whether lavine avgs 50 or 100 pts a game. He needs to freaking make the all star for the sake of trade value, regardless of trading him. Chicago just has no sort of relevance regardless of his scoring.

Again, the problem with Lavine is he forces you to contend a championship with a horrible White-Carter core and the rookie.
You need at least a Jokic type to get to 50 wins but theres no way on earth you acquire those guys with no assets.
Garpax made the right decision with Jimmy. You call Butler a diva he switched teams every half season for his own taste. And Lavine is from Hollywood I will let you imagine the rest.

[FriedRise]

I think we can do better than a 57/43 split in favor of keeping Zach.

Feel free to re-cast your votes, fellas. There's still plenty of room in the bandwagon

[weneeda2guard]

The hope for a generational talent from the draft sells better to many fans then dealing with the disappointment of not landing the big free agents or making the big trades etc

Lavine is clearly a star. You dont flip him for some mediocre assets because once again a few fans have the dreamy eyes of the unexpected draft prospects. I can recall so many "deepest draft in years" periods coming along and it being a total let down. There is just no guarantees in the draft unless there is a lebron or zion etc there. That is not the case this year and you don't get those kind of prospects often it's once maybe every 10 years.

So again, if a team comes with a kings ransom, a couple young promising prospects not just some guys who went high in the draft, and 4-5 picks unprotected then ok move Lavine. But if that's not not case which it doesn't appear it will be, time to stop following draft dreams and build the way most of the contenders build, by adding more talent via free agency and trades. If we happen to just miss the playoffs and get a good draft pick let that happen organically but we can't properly teach these guys how to become winners by encouraging losing for high draft picks.

[Magic beans]

I think we can do better than a 57/43 split in favor of keeping Zach.

Feel free to re-cast your votes, fellas. There's still plenty of room in the bandwagon

No Zach equals lottery. ( or is that what we are doing anyway )? I’m an advocate for keeping him, whether you love or hate the guy at least he keeps this franchise entertaining. IMO he is well deserving of all star status. Imagine if we added lonzo to the mix and how this would compliment his game.

I feel sorry for the fact that we don’t have sufficient assets to assist Zach...

[johnnyvann840]

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

Jimmy just dragged Miami to the Finals on his back. Jimmy's teams have always been a LOT better with him on the floor and his impact has always been obviously positive on the scoreboard. Even this season, Miami is 17 pts better with Jimmy on the floor. Miami being bad is because Jimmy has only played in 12 games this season. In those games Butler has played in, Miami is 7-5. Without Jimmy they are 3-9. So yeah, seeing his team was just in the NBA Finals last season this past summer and his impact is so obviously positive as it has been his entire career, he is worth it.

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

He hasn't proven me wrong at all. All I've ever said is that his teams have always done better on the scoreboard without him and he's always been a negative impact player and he is. Even this season, despite the terrific raw counting stats and great shooting %'s, the fact is that the Bulls are still 13 pts better per 100 without him. He is having one of his worst seasons in regard to raw impact this year. It's just a fact.

[johnnyvann840]

We are talking about today not what happened in the past.

oh, and I AM talking about today. Right now. Lavine is a net negative 13 pts (THIRTEEN!!) per 100 per B/R. Jimmy is a positive 17 (SEVENTEEN!!).. Heat are 3-9 without Butler and 7-5 with him. THIS season. Last season, Jimmy dragged them into the freaking NBA Finals. So, yeah.. Jimmy is worth the money.

[DuckIII]

Jimmy just dragged Miami to the Finals on his back. Jimmy's teams have always been a LOT better with him on the floor and his impact has always been obviously positive on the scoreboard. Even this season, Miami is 17 pts better with Jimmy on the floor. Miami being bad is because Jimmy has only played in 12 games this season. In those games Butler has played in, Miami is 7-5. Without Jimmy they are 3-9. So yeah, seeing his team was just in the NBA Finals last season this past summer and his impact is so obviously positive as it has been his entire career, he is worth it.

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

He hasn't proven me wrong at all. All I've ever said is that his teams have always done better on the scoreboard without him and he's always been a negative impact player and he is. Even this season, despite the terrific raw counting stats and great shooting %'s, the fact is that the Bulls are still 13 pts better per 100 without him. He is having one of his worst seasons in regard to raw impact this year. It's just a fact.

Proof that said statistic sucks eggs.

[BeatDaCavs420]

Yeah we gonna need a proven player and about 3 first round picks for him...Or else I wont be happy

[Jcool0]

We are talking about today not what happened in the past.

oh, and I AM talking about today. Right now. Lavine is a net negative 13 pts (THIRTEEN!!) per 100 per B/R. Jimmy is a positive 17 (SEVENTEEN!!).. Heat are 3-9 without Butler and 7-5 with him. THIS season. Last season, Jimmy dragged them into the freaking NBA Finals. So, yeah.. Jimmy is worth the money.

Jimmy didn't drag anyone to the NBA finals. In the ECF Bam was there best player averaging 21 points, 11 rebounds and 5 assists. Dragic was averaging 20 points as well. Herro was at 19 ppg.

[Jcool0]

He should have over a million votes. Lets do better guys

[Jcool0]

Read on Twitter

[johnnyvann840]

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

He hasn't proven me wrong at all. All I've ever said is that his teams have always done better on the scoreboard without him and he's always been a negative impact player and he is. Even this season, despite the terrific raw counting stats and great shooting %'s, the fact is that the Bulls are still 13 pts better per 100 without him. He is having one of his worst seasons in regard to raw impact this year. It's just a fact.

Proof that said statistic sucks eggs.

Not over an entire career it doesn't. I've always agreed that the stat is noisy and not reliable when looked at for 50 games or even a whole season in many cases, but when a player consistently makes his team better with many variables and different teammates and opponents, it gains merit over time. How do you explain a player like Jimmy Butler being a huge positive impact player over his entire career? Three different teams.. doesn't matter who he plays with or against, he just makes his team better and everyone he plays with. Lavine is just the opposite. His entire career his teams have performed better when he doesn't play. Consistently, over years and years. He's also still a turnover machine and makes terrible decisions at the end of games which is a big reason why his team lose more than they win.

[johnnyvann840]

We are talking about today not what happened in the past.

oh, and I AM talking about today. Right now. Lavine is a net negative 13 pts (THIRTEEN!!) per 100 per B/R. Jimmy is a positive 17 (SEVENTEEN!!).. Heat are 3-9 without Butler and 7-5 with him. THIS season. Last season, Jimmy dragged them into the freaking NBA Finals. So, yeah.. Jimmy is worth the money.

Jimmy didn't drag anyone to the NBA finals. In the ECF Bam was there best player averaging 21 points, 11 rebounds and 5 assists. Dragic was averaging 20 points as well. Herro was at 19 ppg.

Fact is that without Jimmy on the floor, the Heat were negative in pt differential. Not even a .500 team. Butler elevates the play of everyone around him which is what great players, winning players do consistently.

[RSP83]

Jimmy just dragged Miami to the Finals on his back. Jimmy's teams have always been a LOT better with him on the floor and his impact has always been obviously positive on the scoreboard. Even this season, Miami is 17 pts better with Jimmy on the floor. Miami being bad is because Jimmy has only played in 12 games this season. In those games Butler has played in, Miami is 7-5. Without Jimmy they are 3-9. So yeah, seeing his team was just in the NBA Finals last season this past summer and his impact is so obviously positive as it has been his entire career, he is worth it.

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

He hasn't proven me wrong at all. All I've ever said is that his teams have always done better on the scoreboard without him and he's always been a negative impact player and he is. Even this season, despite the terrific raw counting stats and great shooting %'s, the fact is that the Bulls are still 13 pts better per 100 without him. He is having one of his worst seasons in regard to raw impact this year. It's just a fact.

Stats aside, I cannot imagine this team is better without him on the floor. Does that mean if we put Zach on DNP-CD and play strictly Coby, Temple, Pat, Lauri, Wendell, Sato, Thad, OPJ, Gafford, we will start winning more games?

[johnnyvann840]

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

He hasn't proven me wrong at all. All I've ever said is that his teams have always done better on the scoreboard without him and he's always been a negative impact player and he is. Even this season, despite the terrific raw counting stats and great shooting %'s, the fact is that the Bulls are still 13 pts better per 100 without him. He is having one of his worst seasons in regard to raw impact this year. It's just a fact.

Stats aside, I cannot imagine this team is better without him on the floor. Does that mean if we put Zach on DNP-CD and play strictly Coby, Temple, Pat, Lauri, Wendell, Sato, Thad, OPJ, Gafford, we will start winning more games?

It doesn't mean that, but he still isn't moving the needle in a positive direction. A lot of it is his team defense and TO's. The offense is much better with Lavine but the D is horrendous. That is where the differential is coming from. It is hard to fathom. Frankly, I was pretty shocked when I started looking at the impact numbers. I expected things to look different. I'm not sure what all the reasons are but one big one is the youth factor of the starters. The Bulls starters have been terrible this season as a unit and the bench has carried the team so far. Granted, the Bulls are the youngest starting lineup in the NBA when it's Coby, Zach, PW, Lauri and WCJ. So, I don't expect them to be World beaters. All I'm saying is that for all those shiny stats, you would think we would start to see some impact when it comes to scoring more points than the other team and we just aren't.

Zach has improved in many areas. He is an athletic freak and has one of the prettiest shots you will ever see. He's exciting and electric. Fun to watch. Seemingly a nice kid. I understand why everyone wants to see him succeed. Hell, I want to see him succeed. I want to see the Bulls start winning. The -13 was before the last game was added and he made a big jump to -10.4 in just one game. It's early in the season and things could still turn around.

For the record, I hope he makes the AST. I couldn't care less about that as I haven't watched an all star game/weekend in years and I really don't put any credence in it when judging a player. But maybe it will give him some clout. Maybe he'll get more favorable treatment from the refs and that would help the Bulls.

[Ice Man]

Zach = Beal = Kryie. If you like one, you should like them all. And vice versa. As for me, I'm skeptical of the breed. I have always thought that Kyrie Irving was deeply overrated, being treated as an NBA superstar and automatic All Star, when he's actually just a useful player who is fun to watch and scores a bunch of points. You don't want any of these three guys as the best player on your team, not if you want to win a title.

But for sure you want them on your team. So no, I wouldn't trade LaVine, unless there was a substantial possibility that the trade would net an actual NBA superstar. And who would make that trade to the Bulls?

[sco]

Cold, my only issue with that is the paucity of bigs who fit that role. Where do you get one? I agree a core of Zach, Willy to develop, and a Jokic type would be a fantastic path forward. But how do you get the big?

Good question.

I think we are beyond the draft. Zach's window is basically now. You can't draft a guy and expect him to be an elite player over the next few years. You can either try to identify some gem in the rough and get him in free agency or by trade or just go all in on a trade.

I'll bring up a few names:
Julius Randle has bounced around a lot but he is only 26. He is having a great year and is going to be a free agent. The Bulls could just outright sign him. He is actually one of the league leaders in assists for the PF position. Julius Randle + Zach doesn't strike fear in the hearts of many people but with the right role players, you might get some great synergy.

Aaron Gordon has been rather disappointing and the Magic are going down. His name has come up in trades already. Again, this is another situation where you hope that some synergy forms that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. He is 25 like Zach and is a well rounded player who might shine in the right system.

KAT would be the really big fish. He has won nothing in Minnesota and that team is going nowhere. They aren't going to be able to keep him. He is on a long term deal though. If he were to indicate he wasn't happy, the Bulls could go all in and trade Lauri, Wendell, 3 picks and 2 draft swaps for him and then try to build a winner. Lavine and KAT would be a defensive concern but on offense they would be a perfect inside/outside threat where you truly just have to fill out the team with roleplayers.

There are many others. The permutations here are significant. On the inside, I would love to see what a Lavine/KAT team could do with a good coach and complimentary teammates.

Let's be honest though. The Bulls aren't going to get Antonio Davis or the Joker or Embiid. Whomever Chicago gets is going to have warts and be a risky move with clear concerns.

I like the idea of going after Drummond, but am torn as I don't want big $ tied to a C. That said, my realistic best case would be to nab Drummond, and then trade the farm to try to get Grant from Det.