Tank World Order (2.0)

[Danny1616]

In this thread we see our limitations and want the team to make the necessary steps to get better.

Saying we’re still elite and we’re only one decent center away from contending for a championship it when it gets problematic.

Lowry is 34, Norman is a 26 year role player thats gonna warrant a big commitment. We’re at a crucial point in the trajectory of this franchise.

We either fizzle out (which is where we’re heading) or we make the necessary steps to expand the window.

First, that's not far fetched, but I do agree we need more. Last year we were on pace for 60 wins, and had Siakam not been a complete disaster we beat Boston and have a shot at beating Miami.

Second, I do agree something needs to be addressed with both Kyle and Norm. This is a transition year, but it doesn't mean that if we don't do something big our team will fizzle. Siakam, Fred and OG are proving to be a pretty damn nice core. It's about surrounding them with good complimentary pieces or maybe packing one of them for an all-star in the future if that arises.

The thing is, if you let Lowry go for nothing and pay Norman/let him leave then we are going to fizzle out. We might have a 2-3 year window where we are at the middle of the pack but nothing elite.

Packaging one of them for a superstar would be cool but not likely. Either we that’s not the problem. We both agree we should keep Siakam.

I do think that it's a bit of disservice to our management and player development program which has proven time and time again to be elite.

In 2016, it looked like our window was closing (stuck with aging Scola, Patterson, Carroll on bad contract etc.) Masai manages to flip Ross for Ibaka and get mid-late draft pick ups like Norm, Siakam, Delon, Fred, OG etc. and extend that window and even use those assets to get other great pieces (Kawhi and Gasol). None of those guys became who they are right away. It look them 2-3 years of slow development, with time in the G League to become solid contributors to our roster.

For example, we now see Boucher has a great product of our development program. Boucher is averaging 14ppg and 7rpg on 53% shooting this year and is in the race for MIP. That's a testament to our organization slowly grooming players into solid roles, and not just throwing 19 year old's straight away onto the court on teams with bad cultures where they don't learn to play the right way and develop bad habits.

[720]

First, that's not far fetched, but I do agree we need more. Last year we were on pace for 60 wins, and had Siakam not been a complete disaster we beat Boston and have a shot at beating Miami.

Second, I do agree something needs to be addressed with both Kyle and Norm. This is a transition year, but it doesn't mean that if we don't do something big our team will fizzle. Siakam, Fred and OG are proving to be a pretty damn nice core. It's about surrounding them with good complimentary pieces or maybe packing one of them for an all-star in the future if that arises.

The thing is, if you let Lowry go for nothing and pay Norman/let him leave then we are going to fizzle out. We might have a 2-3 year window where we are at the middle of the pack but nothing elite.

Packaging one of them for a superstar would be cool but not likely. Either we that’s not the problem. We both agree we should keep Siakam.

I do think that it's a bit of disservice to our management and player development program which has proven time and time again to be elite.

In 2016, it looked like our window was closing. Masai manages to get mid-late draft pick ups like Norm, Siakam, Delon, Fred, OG etc. and extend that window and even use those assets to get other great pieces (Kawhi and Gasol). None of those guys became who they are right away. It look them 2-3 years of slow development, with time in the G League to become solid contributors to our roster.

For example, we now see Boucher has a great product of our development program. Boucher is averaging 14ppg and 7rpg on 53% shooting this year and is in the race for MIP. That's a testament to our organization slowly grooming players into solid roles, and not just throwing 19 year old's straight away onto the court on teams with bad cultures where they don't learn to play the right way and develop bad habits.

We don’t win these games without Norm putting up 25-30 points. We saw how we struggled to start the season when he struggled. Which is a littler worrying, considering he’s supposed to be our 4th option and role player (who is likely to opt out and be a free agent this offseason).

I guess We’re both just waiting to see what happens.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's worth noting that even Bobby Webster didn't know if Kawhi would show up until he actually showed up. And the Raptors weren't privy to Kawhi's medical information through the negotiations. There was considerable risk which I can imagine fans might be sensitive to beyond just liking DeMar, that might show up in a snap poll like that.

I think it's also great that DeMar has aged like wine, playing his best ball for the Spurs and recently being called a future hall of famer by Steve Kerr. Any of the people that were in the draft thread that year know how unskilled he was at USC.

[720]

It's worth noting that even Bobby Webster didn't know if Kawhi would show up until he actually showed up. And the Raptors weren't privy to Kawhi's medical information through the negotiations. There was considerable risk which I can imagine fans might be sensitive to beyond just liking DeMar, that might show up in a snap poll like that.

I think it's also great that DeMar has aged like wine, playing his best ball for the Spurs and recently being called a future hall of famer by Steve Kerr. Any of the people that were in the draft thread that year know how unskilled he was at USC.

Is doesn’t matter he shot poorly game 7 vs the nuggets and last year they did t even make the playoffs. I was a huge Demar fan but he’s flawed. Doesn’t change no matter how many times he balls out during the regular season.

[sidsid]

Banking those early losses was big for keeping us in the 5 to 10 lottery range which is still the goal with a few variables/assumptions yet to hit.

- Trading Lowry
- Trading Norm
- the 1 to 2 week covid decimated lineups
- switching to a development focus

That's a recipe for a big post-deadline slide if they happen.

[Morse Code]

I am neither a pro tanker, nor an anti tanker. I’m the same as I’ve always been, I want a star! Back then Kawhi was it. Now, the draft is the path. It’s not an either or scenario, it’s a thought process many like me have, that is, what’s the most likely path to acquiring a star at this current moment. I think the chances we can trade Pascal, TD and picks for a true star is very very small. Much smaller than when we traded for Kawhi. Not to mention it’s not the same thing, because we’d be adding a star to a roster that has very little value compared to the pieces we used to build our 2019 championship team. Hence my desire to tank.

[LoveMyRaps]

Here is the other poll taken...

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1729271&hilit=derozan+for+kawhi

Seems like a pretty sizeable contingent.

64% were for the deal.

Where is this minority opinion??

Again, if your argument is this is more precise a poll, than explain this???

Depends on the offer.

If it's something like DeRozan + draft pick/Poetl/Wright for Kawhi, sure.
If it's Derozan + draft pick + Siakam/OG/Poetl/Wright, then no.

Which is again what I have been saying.

Wow way to put me on blast. I'm sure you could've found a better example

[Johnny Bball]

Also Danny1616, yes it’s not black and white. It is grey. Which is why I think this team needs to trade Lowry and Norm for assets. Drop in the standings and get a decent pick.

Come back next year with young assets.

NO ONE WANTS TO GET RID OF EVERYONE.

Again, me and others here have agreed on trading Lowry and Norm if you can get a good return. That was never disputed.

Initially, and I'm not saying you, others wanted a full rebuild. Then as this thread became more complex, some started to argue for a 'stealth tank' which meant to finish in 9th or 10th and get a top 15 pick, which is basically being mediocre, and that was extremely funny to me.

Many of threads from a few months ago started with some posters calling to fire sell Siakam and Fred. We only started debating the last 2-3 weeks.

I wouldn’t trade Siakam. He would/will make an excellant second option on an elite team. I would trade Fred if an amazing offer came up.

If you look at the poll above most people here want to move Norm and Lowry. We don’t want to trade everyone for the sake of trading everyone.

You want to trade guys that aren't part of our core moving forward, Powell and Lowry, even though you continually stated we can't win with this core... you want to leave them here. Makes perfect sense. If you only don't care if we trade Powell or Lowry, welcome to team mediocre, as you like to call it.

Some people opinions change wike a flag in the wind and they expect everyone to believe it was always what they believed. Nah.

[720]

Again, me and others here have agreed on trading Lowry and Norm if you can get a good return. That was never disputed.

Initially, and I'm not saying you, others wanted a full rebuild. Then as this thread became more complex, some started to argue for a 'stealth tank' which meant to finish in 9th or 10th and get a top 15 pick, which is basically being mediocre, and that was extremely funny to me.

Many of threads from a few months ago started with some posters calling to fire sell Siakam and Fred. We only started debating the last 2-3 weeks.

I wouldn’t trade Siakam. He would/will make an excellant second option on an elite team. I would trade Fred if an amazing offer came up.

If you look at the poll above most people here want to move Norm and Lowry. We don’t want to trade everyone for the sake of trading everyone.

You want to trade guys that aren't part of our core moving forward, Powell and Lowry, even though you continually stated we can't win with this core... you want to leave them here. Makes perfect sense. If you only don't care if we trade Powell or Lowry, welcome to team mediocre, as you like to call it.

Some people opinions change wike a flag in the wind and they expect everyone to believe it was always what they believed. Nah.

We're mediocre WITH those guys AND they're leaving next year. Trade them for assets and get better.

[Masai4PM]

Why is being called mediocre (which is an insult btw) considered acceptable and not warned on this board?

Anyways, TWO is just a fantasy, so live it out as you guys wish, it aint happening.

[Geddy]

I mean 12-14 is pretty much in line with the definition of mediocre.

[DelAbbot]

Why is being called mediocre (which is an insult btw) considered acceptable and not warned on this board?

Anyways, TWO is just a fantasy, so live it out as you guys wish, it aint happening.

Why is being called mediocre an insult? Maybe to a high achiever, but by definition a lot of people are in the mediocre bracket of the population distribution.

When I was younger, I was happy with the Vince led team, which was slightly above mediocre. That was fine.

After Kawhi and championship, the fans on this board want much better than a mediocre Raptors team.

[OakleyDokely]

I mean 12-14 is pretty much in line with the definition of mediocre.

How about 13-11, 11-14, 13-13...the records of Boston, Miami and Indi?

Other than PHI and MIL, the entire conference has been a trainwreck so far.

[bballsparkin]

I mean 12-14 is pretty much in line with the definition of mediocre.

Currently, correct. Much like many playoff teams this year. However, it is IMO a mistake to assume the future is mediocre bound without tanking. The way I see it. The most important thing for the Raptors is the play of OG, Pascal and Fred. As they are locked up contract wise and have big money owed. All have started to show glimpses off living up to their contracts. If they do, any two of them with picks and other young players could fetch a star. Plus we know all three of them fit well with a true star.

I think we sorta are tanking. Masai style. The FO could have easily brought back Ibaka. We would be better record wise with him. But we don't know the real contract negotiations. Maybe Ibaka wanted too much and wanted to play on LAC if he had to settle for lesser moola. I envision him joking with Masai he was going to pin leaving on the Raptors side and he can't say boo as he did DeMar dirty.

Look at yesterday this team is still developing. Stanley, Boucher, Bembry, heck even TD is making some progress. As long as they don't do so knee jerk trade Bryan Colangello style I'm cool. Keep those firsts, especially this years, unless the return is mighty impressive.

Masai is known to wait. We still have till the trade deadline to see how this unfolds. And just look at the records. So many teams between the 13-10 Celtics to the 10-14 Thunder. It's bizarre. I can't recall a season that started like this.

I still would sell high on Norm if possible. And I'm ready to move on from the short back-court.

[Masai4PM]

Why is being called mediocre (which is an insult btw) considered acceptable and not warned on this board?

Anyways, TWO is just a fantasy, so live it out as you guys wish, it aint happening.

Why is being called mediocre an insult? Maybe to a high achiever, but by definition a lot of people are in the mediocre bracket of the population distribution.

When I was younger, I was happy with the Vince led team, which was slightly above mediocre. That was fine.

After Kawhi and championship, the fans on this board want much better than a mediocre Raptors team.

Yes, fans want better than mediocre, and yes we should be achieving greatness.

If you're fine with being average, you do you bro, we just won a championship and that should always be the goal.

[Masai4PM]

I mean 12-14 is pretty much in line with the definition of mediocre.

It's a long season and 26 game sample size with all the sh*t this team had to go through (playing in Tampa...), along with a playing much better as of late, not sure what you're getting at.

The team needs more pieces, and those who think we need to bottom out to get them at no consequence and will be the path to another championship are delusional.

[Steelo Green]

I mean 12-14 is pretty much in line with the definition of mediocre.

How about 13-11, 11-14, 13-13...the records of Boston, Miami and Indi?

Other than PHI and MIL, the entire conference has been a trainwreck so far.

Well their superstar in Miami missed most of the season and now have won 4 straight after he got back from a bad COVID battle and getting back into the groove.

Boston is 13-11 to our 12-14, 2 games up on us, and again, team with a superstar, heck even two, who just are having a slow start.

Indiana isn’t that great a team to begin with and they lost Warren and Dipo as well and are still better than us with a fairly mediocre squad.

Not sure why Brooklyn is getting made fun of, the Heatles were 8-9 to start their season too so it will take a bit of time.

12-14 regardless of anything is mediocre when you take it in tandem with the fact we have no superstars, a basic requirement to do anything in the playoffs.

We’re 5-5 in our last ten, 4-10 against 0.500 or above, 17th in D, 7th in O.

If I were Boston, or Brooklyn, or Miami, I wouldn’t be too worried in terms of final standings.

Let’s see where we stand after the Bucks, Sixers and Heat games. Will be very telling of what this team is.

[KL78192020]

For those that voted the middle option, what if Lowrys already decided he wants to leave especially with him selling his house but doesn't communicate anything to the team are you still keeping him? is that a chance you take? I think the only way he stays is if he the Raptors offer substantially more money than any other team.

[Inevitable]

We back!

[720]

Lowry and Norm tried their best to win that one. Poor guys. I don't blame them when they leave this offseason.