Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss

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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#41 » by AdagioPace » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:43 am

shotsquatch wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:He was ahead of his time. He was a 2020´s basketball player, playing in the early 2000's. Most teams weren't prepared to guard him.He changed the game.Plus, he was a winner and very clutch, especially in his prime.

Funny enough, his biggest blunder came against a team who was ahead of his time also, and they overachieved in that Playoff run. They surprised a Mavericks team who wasn't prepared for them.

Imagine Dirk averaging 7-8 threes a game. He'd be dropping thirty every night. Would be hard to hide him on defense against modern small ball lineups though, I don't remember Dirk ever being a positive defender.

Its time to get up to date. Its 2021. Of course dirk was a positive defender unless youre stephen a smith or 15 y.o. the same is happening with jokic. European = bad defender ...smells of early 00 ignorance.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#42 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:00 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Read on Twitter

I hope Luka continues to get better at his post up game. He’s been good this year but I think he has potential to be great from the post and mid range.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#43 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am

VanWest82 wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:Someone ban this man for not creating a LeBron or MJ thread.


Not only did Dirk best Lebron in the Finals but he's also 3-0 vs. Wizards MJ. :o

Not just Labron (and Wade) in the Finals but also bested the back to back Champion Lakers, and OKC with Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka. I also think about his battles with prime KG and how Dirk used to roast KG.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#44 » by VanWest82 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:15 am

Mr B wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:Someone ban this man for not creating a LeBron or MJ thread.


Not only did Dirk best Lebron in the Finals but he's also 3-0 vs. Wizards MJ. :o

Not just Labron (and Wade) in the Finals but also bested the back to back Champion Lakers, and OKC with Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka. I also think about his battles with prime KG and how Dirk used to roast KG.


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He took down Nash too in 06. Dirk beat pretty much every great player from his era except for Shaq. CWebb got him pretty good too. Dirk is way underrated in the all time debate.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#45 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:07 am

shi-woo wrote:It's always fun as a huge Dirk fan to look back on his career. Dirk always led these mediocre teams with guys like Terry, Stackhouse, Finley, and Howard to 50+ wins, and deep playoff runs, but the narrative for almost the entirety of his prime was "Doesn't bang in the post or play center," "Does protect the rim and is super soft," and my favorite after the GSW upset them, "Just isn't a winner, and doesn't have the it factor."

Dirk was always awesome, and none of those things were ever true about him outside of his first couple of years. I feel bad for him, because the Mavs blew it big time in 2004. They had a super talented team with the likes of Dirk/Fin/Antawn/Walker/Nash/Howard and somehow in their ineptitude entered the next season with Jason Terry as Dirks robbin. Kind of a real let down, and shaped the entirety of his career.

Letting talent like Nash (two time all-star at the time, future MVP), and Antawn Jamison (Fomer 25/9 player in his prime, just won 6th man of the year, would be an all-star the following year), was absolutely mind boggling, and Don Nelson should have been let go sooner for not realizing that. Especially when you realize both players signed for less than what the Mavs gave Keith Van Horn...

Flipping through those rosters, and man, I have no idea how Dirk dragged them to 60+ wins in deepest conference in modern history. The dude was it to the finals in 2006 with a team of misfits, and people are shocked that he lost to a team with Shaq, Wade, Toine, Payton, Posey, Zo, and J-Will...

Dirk man, true warrior for sticking it out and getting one, and is a prime example of how narrative and player perception by the media plays a role in shaping how fans think of a player.

Just curious but were you a close fan of the Mavs during Dirk’s early years? I’m just asking because everything you are saying are facts however you’re leaving out context. JET, Stackhouse, and Finley were all great 2nd options. Although Finley was still the lead dog for a while after Dirk and Nash got to Dallas. Then Nash took over as the lead dog.

The problem with Nash is that the played played so freaking hard he was always getting injured. And it was almost always his back. He used to have to lay down on the floor when he wasn’t in the game (almost Bird like). So when his contract came up Cuban had to make a decision to give him Kobe money or let him walk. Cuban made the wrong choice in hindsight. At the time though it was a tough choice because of his health.

As for the Dirk/Jamison/Walker/Nash/Howard team. That team had so many holes in it, it was crazy. Jamison and Howard were the only two that could play defense. That didn’t matter though because Nellie didn’t want them playing defense. He had this idea of Walker being a point forward. He was ahead of his time, so much so that it didn’t work. Walker had the skill but not the inclination to be a true point. Also Walker, Dirk, and Jamison all played the same position. In today’s game that might work but not in the early 2000’s. Dirk was more of a SF in those days than he was a PF. Jamison was more the 4 on that team. The chemistry was just off and it didn’t work even though all those guys were talented. Jamison was traded for Stackhouse and the pick that became Devin Harris. Both help lead the Mavs to the ‘06 Finals (where they were robbed).

Through all of that though that’s why it was so great to see Dirk lift that Championship trophy. Dude was clutch, super humble, a great guy in the community, and loyal. He was everything you want a super star to be. I live in Dallas and when it comes to sports Dirk reach a point where his lore is right there with Roger Staubach. If you’re from Texas you know that’s a pretty huge deal. He could run for mayor and win in a landslide.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#46 » by dlts20 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:13 am

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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#47 » by GSP » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:16 am

VanWest82 wrote:
Mr B wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Not only did Dirk best Lebron in the Finals but he's also 3-0 vs. Wizards MJ. :o

Not just Labron (and Wade) in the Finals but also bested the back to back Champion Lakers, and OKC with Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka. I also think about his battles with prime KG and how Dirk used to roast KG.


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He took down Nash too in 06. Dirk beat pretty much every great player from his era except for Shaq. CWebb got him pretty good too. Dirk is way underrated in the all time debate.


He got robbed of a win over Shaq in the 06 finals too

For the caliber of played he was he should have at least 2-3 rings but Cuban and Mavs Fo did a poor job around him for most of his career
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#48 » by Pg81 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:18 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
shotsquatch wrote:I don't remember Dirk ever being a positive defender.


Defensive metrics are hard to trust, but pretty much all of them have Dirk as a positive defender his entire prime. Euro reps are hard to shake though.

As a scouting report from a biased source who watched every second he ever played:

Great defensive rebounder
Great at getting back on defense
Great at closing out on shooters--and he's 7 ft tall
Good solid post defender with great hands--mastered the Karl Malone strip/block to make up for his lack of leaping
Never turned the ball over as a guy the offense ran through limiting transition--this definitely helps a defense

Also would concede layups in the 1st half because the team post-Nash couldn't survive offensively without him. Avoided cheap fouls leading to easy buckets.
Poor lateral mobility particularly in his 30's -- could not defend on the perimeter.
Was frequently given the easiest defensive assignment -- would often stand in the corner with Bowen or Fisher when playing the best teams in his conference.

It's really difficult to be a negative defender when you are 7 feet tall unless you have no instincts or give no effort. Neither of which describe Dirk.

OTOH, most centers and PF's would have provided more defensive value than Dirk so by replacement value he probably is a bit of a negative.


I think it needs to be clarified that this was done so Dirk could avoid foul trouble because as you said the Mavs offense crumbled without him, even the legandary 2011 team was terrible on offense without him on the floor.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#49 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:19 am

Sixersftw wrote:Billy King's first move as a GM, iirc, drafting Larry Hughes over Dirk and Paul Pierce. Pretty cool..... Not a harbinger of coming doom at all....

I remember that draft, Larry Hughes had a lot of hype coming out of college. I remember mocks that had him coming to the Mavs. I wanted the Mavs to get Pierce. Hughes went 1 pick before the Mavs and then the Mavs took Traylor, and I was like WTF?! Then end up with some skinny foreign white kid with a bowl cut. I was expecting another Chris Ansty. Instead he turned into a top 10 All Time player, best shooting big of all time, and best foreign born player of all time (along with Dream).


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#50 » by Jakay » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:25 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Read on Twitter


Wait... so the second most clutch team had 51.3% winning percentage. So in close games, all 28 other teams presumably lost more than they won?

Did only Dallas play close games? How does this make any sense.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#51 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:26 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
shotsquatch wrote:I don't remember Dirk ever being a positive defender.


Defensive metrics are hard to trust, but pretty much all of them have Dirk as a positive defender his entire prime. Euro reps are hard to shake though.

As a scouting report from a biased source who watched every second he ever played:

Great defensive rebounder
Great at getting back on defense
Great at closing out on shooters--and he's 7 ft tall
Good solid post defender with great hands--mastered the Karl Malone strip/block to make up for his lack of leaping
Never turned the ball over as a guy the offense ran through limiting transition--this definitely helps a defense

Also would concede layups in the 1st half because the team post-Nash couldn't survive offensively without him. Avoided cheap fouls leading to easy buckets.
Poor lateral mobility particularly in his 30's -- could not defend on the perimeter.
Was frequently given the easiest defensive assignment -- would often stand in the corner with Bowen or Fisher when playing the best teams in his conference.

It's really difficult to be a negative defender when you are 7 feet tall unless you have no instincts or give no effort. Neither of which describe Dirk.

OTOH, most centers and PF's would have provided more defensive value than Dirk so by replacement value he probably is a bit of a negative.

He didn’t start off a great rebounder. He was actually pretty bad his rookie year and the start of his second year. Then at some point it all just clicked for him. It really kind of started in their game against the Sonics and he was going against Patrick Ewing. He got a big dunk on Ewing and it seemed like everything started to click fir him. I think that’s when he finally figured out he’s good enough to play in the NBA. He didn’t have that confidence his first year. I’ve heard Nellie say that Dirk is the only guy he’s ever seen turn himself into a rebounder. He said most guys have it or you don’t.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#52 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:30 am

Jasen777 wrote:
Sixersftw wrote:Billy King's first move as a GM, iirc, drafting Larry Hughes over Dirk and Paul Pierce. Pretty cool..... Not a harbinger of coming doom at all....


Allegedly they felt obligated to take Hughes because they had offered him a guarantee of taking him if he was there, never imagining that Pierce was going to be. Dirk was a huge gamble at the time, harder to blame them for that one.

The average fan at the time really knew next to nothing about Dirk going in to that draft. I remember reading a story in Sports Illustrated about some German kid dominated the top US kids at the McDonalds game. A couple teams knew about him though, obviously the Mavs but Boston also really wanted him from what I remember.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#53 » by AdagioPace » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:33 am

Jakay wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Read on Twitter


Wait... so the second most clutch team had 51.3% winning percentage. So in close games, all 28 other teams presumably lost more than they won?

Did only Dallas play close games? How does this make any sense.

It's possible they were all around 50% (not much difference between teams regardless of goodness maybe)
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#54 » by dlts20 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:35 am

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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#55 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:37 am

VanWest82 wrote:
Mr B wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Not only did Dirk best Lebron in the Finals but he's also 3-0 vs. Wizards MJ. :o

Not just Labron (and Wade) in the Finals but also bested the back to back Champion Lakers, and OKC with Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka. I also think about his battles with prime KG and how Dirk used to roast KG.


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He took down Nash too in 06. Dirk beat pretty much every great player from his era except for Shaq. CWebb got him pretty good too. Dirk is way underrated in the all time debate.

That same year they also beat that Spurs team with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili in their prime.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#56 » by Clyde Frazier » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:44 am

Image

I miss him :(



Not his most important game winner, but easily my favorite from a "what kind of sorcery is this?!" standpoint.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#57 » by Muha_i_samolet » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:01 am

He's always been behind Timmy but clearly above Kg. Kg hasn't done anything in the playoffs before teaming up with 2 hofers.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#58 » by Pg81 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:06 am

Muha_i_samolet wrote:He's always been behind Timmy but clearly above Kg. Kg hasn't done anything in the playoffs before teaming up with 2 hofers.


KG and Dirk are very close. KG was clearly the better defensive player while Dirk was the clearly better offensive player. A shame that KG got hurt in Boston, might have won another title if he could have stayed healthy.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#59 » by SMTBSI » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:00 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
ropjhk wrote:I wonder how the Lakers performed over the same stretch.

Well sounds like .500 or worse considering Boston was the 2nd most effective team and they were a shade over .500.

Not necessarily. The tweet says Dallas and Boston had the 1st and 2nd most wins, not the 1st and 2nd best winning percentage.

If 96-91, or .513, was good enough for the 2nd best percentage, it would imply almost everyone was at or below .500 in close games. Obviously that's not possible. Dallas alone didn't soak up enough close wins to render the entire league at or below .500 for 6 straight seasons.

Lakers, or any other team, could have been something like 60-40 and not contradict that tweet.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#60 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:11 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
ropjhk wrote:I wonder how the Lakers performed over the same stretch.


Well sounds like .500 or worse considering Boston was the 2nd most effective team and they were a shade over .500.

How can it be mathematically possible?
Average record in close games should be 50%.
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