KNICKS - Houston PG

[booyaka_jones]

I do wanna just quickly say something about this fan base's need to dookie all over other teams "star" players cuz their teams don't win. Guys like Lavine aren't lebron. There's only one Lebron. You guys are holding these young star players like Lavine or Beal to ridiculous standards that don't even make sense. A great player is simply a great player, nothing more nothing less. Is the rest of the team any good? Is the coach any good? Moaning about a player like Lavine who's having a historically great offensively efficient season because it doesn't lead to winning is miopic, his team stinks. His coach stinks. Beal is a beast, that team is disgusting and been disgusting. We really need to chill out with holding up star players to Lebron's level of greatness around here. There are like 3 guys in this entire league that could change the fortune of your team regardless of how bad they are, that's it. Is Beal or Lavine a 1A guy on a championship team? Who is beside like, Lebron, Luka, KD, Curry? Cut that out man. These guys are all great players in bad situations, who in a better situation with better players and coaches can win. You can absolutely be a great team with a multiple B+ star players and great role players and coaching.

[rajajackal]

I do wanna just quickly say something about this fan base's need to dookie all over other teams "star" players cuz their teams don't win. Guys like Lavine aren't lebron. There's only one Lebron. You guys are holding these young star players like Lavine or Beal to ridiculous standards that don't even make sense. A great player is simply a great player, nothing more nothing less. Is the rest of the team any good? Is the coach any good? Moaning about a player like Lavine who's having a historically great offensively efficient season because it doesn't lead to winning is miopic, his team stinks. His coach stinks. Beal is a beast, that team is disgusting and been disgusting. We really need to chill out with holding up star players to Lebron's level of greatness around here. There are like 3 guys in this entire league that could change the fortune of your team regardless of how bad they are, that's it. Is Beal or Lavine a 1A guy on a championship team? Who is beside like, Lebron, Luka, KD, Curry? Cut that out man. These guys are all great players in bad situations, who in a better situation with better players and coaches can win. You can absolutely be a great team with a multiple B+ star players and great role players and coaching.

i agree, but i think when it comes to trade transactions and which assets you're willing to part with, there should be a pretty steep price gap between superstars types and all star types

[DOT]

How many more bad games till the “is RJ a bust” thread gets bumped. 1 more? 2? 3?

I'm surprised it hasn't been already

[Nbabrothers]

Since you mentioned the Clippers, I think he can be better than Lou Will.

But now is the time to develop him for him to potentially become more than that.

Why mess with a good thing? That's the conservative approach imo. Yes, I can obviously see how Quickley could succeed in a complementary guard role. What if his ceiling is actually higher than that? Oughtn't we to try and see if it is?

I don't actually care that Quickley starts or comes off the bench for his own development's sake but Quickley simply outplayed Payton for a significant stretch and fits better with the starters due to his ability to shoot (not necessarily for him but for the starters).

You play the players based off of what is working. Right now it doesn't matter that Rose and IQ are coming off the bench because the 2nd unit is winning us games. That's all starters and bench is, 1st team and 2nd team. If your 1st team can be a +3 and 2nd team is a +10 then guess what? you just won!

People want to harp on Payton but he is playing tough defense and getting timely baskets attacking the basket when the team needs them. That is all his job is as a starter. He isn't the playmaker on the 1st unit. Everything goes through Randle on purpose.

Can Quickley potentially be better than Lou Will? Sure but no one is stopping him or limiting his progress. On the 2ne unit he has free reign to play his game without being religated as a spot up shooter. That is not how he will get better. His game is already earning him more and more minutes and he is thriving playing next to Rose.

IQ's playing time had been steadily decreasing before yesterday's blow-out.

I'm fine with him coming off the bench and sharing ball-handling duties with Rose for the most part. I do believe he should get more minutes however (and not under 20 minutes per game as he's averaged the past 6 games) and get some burn as the lone PG on the floor in a more spread offense.

It's not all or nothing, I'm not arguing that Thibs's handling of IQ is all bad.

I've complained about how Thibs doesn't stagger the starters and the bench on many occasions though. I think both Randle and RJ could benefit from playing with two shooters in the backcourt including Quickley and not always have to face a zone. I stand by that. One simple solution would be to increase IQ's minutes and use the additional playing time to stagger the line-ups.

I think that everyone is missing the point here. The current starters with Payton during beginning of games wound up USUALY in a hole where our bench winds up doing a comeback. The starters in my opinion should be Quickley and Rose with RJ at the three and Randle and Mitch/Noel. Then the floor is spaced out, we have better defense and can score inside and out.
Also, I don’t know why people are saying Paton plays good defense. I think he’s lazy on defense. He can play it but doesn’t commit to it every time. Countless of times I’ve seen a player drive to the basket and Payton just literally watching him with his arms down snd not moving. He is a good defender as he proved when Wall was trying to cross him over and couldn’t do it. If he does that all of the time and drives to the basket more but don’t have him shoot jumpers or three pointer because he fails there, then I can see an argument to keep him as starter.
But my suggested starting lineup would help RJ because he struggles when a good two is defending him, snd getting iq to play well as a starter will get him to adjust his game and grow to become a legit starter.

[Chanel Bomber]

Knicks yanking me back and forth between playoff optimist and team tank

Knicks the type to get the 7th seed, lose the play-in tournament games, and end up with no lottery pick and no playoff basketball

So now you're worrying about something that literally can not happen, alrighty then

Edit: it literally can happen though. From the NBA:

"At the conclusion of the regular season, the team with the seventh-highest winning percentage in each conference will host the team with the eighth-highest winning percentage in its conference in a Play-In Game (the “Seven-Eight Game”). The winner of the Seven-Eight Game in each conference will be the seventh seed in the playoffs for its conference.

The team with the ninth-highest winning percentage in each conference will host the team with the tenth-highest winning percentage in its conference in a Play-In Game (the “Nine-Ten Game”). The loser of the Seven-Eight Game will host the winner of the Nine-Ten Game in a Play-In Game, and the winner of that game will be the eighth seed in the playoffs for its conference."

The 7th seed can miss the playoffs and also not be compensated with a lottery pick. Adam Silver's injustice, not mine.

[stuporman]

Admit it.... you want to ask Rickley to be your valentine....

[Dave_R]

RJ will be fine. It's a little discouraging that his shots at the rim have been inconsistent -- usually a strength of his. He MUST go INTO the defender more when he gets close to the rim -- can't rely upon outjumping them. Draw the foul (and make sure you practice your free throws)!

[Reign23]

Knicks yanking me back and forth between playoff optimist and team tank

yeah same here. It is really hard.
I mean, we make a lot of things right.
IQ looking good, Mitch looked nice before he got hurt, obi looking fine lately (but I don't know what he has to do, to get 20 minutes just one time)
Randle looks like he is for real.

but I really really need a few good RJ games right now. He is "my" future all star. And if he is not that future star, I just don't see the bigger picture with this roster. FA market is thin as **** and the the mid first round picks won't help next season (and won't get many minutes even).

so I am really torn.

[Nbabrothers]

How many more bad games till the “is RJ a bust” thread gets bumped. 1 more? 2? 3?

I'm surprised it hasn't been already

RJ needs to commit himself to th me gym and work on his game everyday like iq does. He needs that work ethic to build his driving strength snd mid range jumper as well as his three point shooting. He should only take three pointer in spots that he favors like iq does. You don’t see iq shooting threes from the right and left corners because he knows his money balls are from the high wing three point line snd close to the top of the key three point line.

[Juco24]

It's going to make people angry, but the Knicks have kind of developed Payton over the course of this season.

Not unlike they made Randle better. Or at least have him playing the best version of himself.

Development isn't only for the players who were drafted.

I ABSOLUTELY can't stand Eldrid-19 BUT.... I'm also not like some and only post when I'm right or refuse to give credit where credits due! Payton's play as of late has not only been tolerable but fairly decent. Maybe he's feeling the heat, maybe it's because we've been playing lackluster talent but since Rose has been here - Payton doesn't suck as much. Still don't want him, but nevertheless I can't hate on him as much. BUZZARDMAN, that was hard to do... even if it wasn't exactly a full endorsement. Lol

[Reign23]

zach lavine is a loser that chucks and ducks on a losing team.

f no.

this is just some BS take. He is good now.

[Nbabrothers]

It's going to make people angry, but the Knicks have kind of developed Payton over the course of this season.

Not unlike they made Randle better. Or at least have him playing the best version of himself.

Development isn't only for the players who were drafted.

I ABSOLUTELY can't stand Eldrid-19 BUT.... I'm also not like some and only post when I'm right or refuse to give credit where credits due! Payton's play as of late has not only been tolerable but fairly decent. Maybe he's feeling the heat, maybe it's because we've been playing lackluster talent but since Rose has been here - Payton doesn't suck as much. Still don't want him, but nevertheless I can't hate on him as much. BUZZARDMAN, that was hard to do... even if it wasn't exactly a full endorsement. Lol

I think Payton is afraid of losing his starting spot and is playing better because of it. His strengths are driving to the basket and defending when he commits himself to it.
His weaknesses are no jump shot from anywhere including the three, and inconsistent defense because of lack of commmitnent.

[Nbabrothers]

It’s no coincidence that our Knicks win games and play better when our point guard does well as a scorer over ten points per game. Snd when I say the point guard it’s the spot and not specifically a player.
That being said, when Elfrid commits himself defensively snd drives to the basket avoiding his nonexistent jumper and when iq plays his game is when we are a tough team to beat.
Quickley’s defense I consider a bit of his weakness but he does everything else well. He does need to work on his steals but maybe that’s just not his game.

[Polk377]

You play the players based off of what is working. Right now it doesn't matter that Rose and IQ are coming off the bench because the 2nd unit is winning us games. That's all starters and bench is, 1st team and 2nd team. If your 1st team can be a +3 and 2nd team is a +10 then guess what? you just won!

People want to harp on Payton but he is playing tough defense and getting timely baskets attacking the basket when the team needs them. That is all his job is as a starter. He isn't the playmaker on the 1st unit. Everything goes through Randle on purpose.

Can Quickley potentially be better than Lou Will? Sure but no one is stopping him or limiting his progress. On the 2ne unit he has free reign to play his game without being religated as a spot up shooter. That is not how he will get better. His game is already earning him more and more minutes and he is thriving playing next to Rose.

IQ's playing time had been steadily decreasing before yesterday's blow-out.

I'm fine with him coming off the bench and sharing ball-handling duties with Rose for the most part. I do believe he should get more minutes however (and not under 20 minutes per game as he's averaged the past 6 games) and get some burn as the lone PG on the floor in a more spread offense.

It's not all or nothing, I'm not arguing that Thibs's handling of IQ is all bad.

I've complained about how Thibs doesn't stagger the starters and the bench on many occasions though. I think both Randle and RJ could benefit from playing with two shooters in the backcourt including Quickley and not always have to face a zone. I stand by that. One simple solution would be to increase IQ's minutes and use the additional playing time to stagger the line-ups.

I think that everyone is missing the point here. The current starters with Payton during beginning of games wound up USUALY in a hole where our bench winds up doing a comeback. The starters in my opinion should be Quickley and Rose with RJ at the three and Randle and Mitch/Noel. Then the floor is spaced out, we have better defense and can score inside and out.
Also, I don’t know why people are saying Paton plays good defense. I think he’s lazy on defense. He can play it but doesn’t commit to it every time. Countless of times I’ve seen a player drive to the basket and Payton just literally watching him with his arms down snd not moving. He is a good defender as he proved when Wall was trying to cross him over and couldn’t do it. If he does that all of the time and drives to the basket more but don’t have him shoot jumpers or three pointer because he fails there, then I can see an argument to keep him as starter.
But my suggested starting lineup would help RJ because he struggles when a good two is defending him, snd getting iq to play well as a starter will get him to adjust his game and grow to become a legit starter.

The point you are missing is Thibs is purposely using the bench as a change of pace lineup. The starting unit is designed to run through Randle and attack the basket. They will grind out possessions. Then the bench comes in and tries to catch them sleeping. I am not opposed to improving the starting lineup but not at the expense of diminishing the strength of the bench.

[Nbabrothers]

IQ's playing time had been steadily decreasing before yesterday's blow-out.

I'm fine with him coming off the bench and sharing ball-handling duties with Rose for the most part. I do believe he should get more minutes however (and not under 20 minutes per game as he's averaged the past 6 games) and get some burn as the lone PG on the floor in a more spread offense.

It's not all or nothing, I'm not arguing that Thibs's handling of IQ is all bad.

I've complained about how Thibs doesn't stagger the starters and the bench on many occasions though. I think both Randle and RJ could benefit from playing with two shooters in the backcourt including Quickley and not always have to face a zone. I stand by that. One simple solution would be to increase IQ's minutes and use the additional playing time to stagger the line-ups.

I think that everyone is missing the point here. The current starters with Payton during beginning of games wound up USUALY in a hole where our bench winds up doing a comeback. The starters in my opinion should be Quickley and Rose with RJ at the three and Randle and Mitch/Noel. Then the floor is spaced out, we have better defense and can score inside and out.
Also, I don’t know why people are saying Paton plays good defense. I think he’s lazy on defense. He can play it but doesn’t commit to it every time. Countless of times I’ve seen a player drive to the basket and Payton just literally watching him with his arms down snd not moving. He is a good defender as he proved when Wall was trying to cross him over and couldn’t do it. If he does that all of the time and drives to the basket more but don’t have him shoot jumpers or three pointer because he fails there, then I can see an argument to keep him as starter.
But my suggested starting lineup would help RJ because he struggles when a good two is defending him, snd getting iq to play well as a starter will get him to adjust his game and grow to become a legit starter.

The point you are missing is Thibs is purposely using the bench as a change of pace lineup. The starting unit is designed to run through Randle and attack the basket. They will grind out possessions. Then the bench comes in and tries to catch them sleeping. I am not opposed to improving the starting lineup but not at the expense of diminishing the strength of the bench.

It makes sense what you stated but I think the key factor here is that we need to play at a better level with whomever is starting so that our bench players don’t have to play catch-up. Also, Randle can still play His game we’re just having at least Quickley Starting with or without Derrick Rose. Maybe you have a Derrick Rose continue playing from the bench with the second unit makes more sense and when they come in quickly can stay with that unit because he plays really well with them. Of course that will increase his minutes per game but that’s how Thibs plays his money guys such as Randle and to some extent RJ Although he has been decreasing RJ’s minutes Because he hasn’t been producing and missing too many sides.

[Nbabrothers]

It's going to make people angry, but the Knicks have kind of developed Payton over the course of this season.

Not unlike they made Randle better. Or at least have him playing the best version of himself.

Development isn't only for the players who were drafted.

I ABSOLUTELY can't stand Eldrid-19 BUT.... I'm also not like some and only post when I'm right or refuse to give credit where credits due! Payton's play as of late has not only been tolerable but fairly decent. Maybe he's feeling the heat, maybe it's because we've been playing lackluster talent but since Rose has been here - Payton doesn't suck as much. Still don't want him, but nevertheless I can't hate on him as much. BUZZARDMAN, that was hard to do... even if it wasn't exactly a full endorsement. Lol

He’s afraid of losing his starting spot. His assist per game are down by 4 from last year because he isn’t playing that two msn game he used to play with Randle. Randle has evolved his game to being a point forward. His past few games he’s played very well but his ceiling isn’t that high.

[louisorr]

I do wanna just quickly say something about this fan base's need to dookie all over other teams "star" players cuz their teams don't win. Guys like Lavine aren't lebron. There's only one Lebron. You guys are holding these young star players like Lavine or Beal to ridiculous standards that don't even make sense. A great player is simply a great player, nothing more nothing less. Is the rest of the team any good? Is the coach any good? Moaning about a player like Lavine who's having a historically great offensively efficient season because it doesn't lead to winning is miopic, his team stinks. His coach stinks. Beal is a beast, that team is disgusting and been disgusting. We really need to chill out with holding up star players to Lebron's level of greatness around here. There are like 3 guys in this entire league that could change the fortune of your team regardless of how bad they are, that's it. Is Beal or Lavine a 1A guy on a championship team? Who is beside like, Lebron, Luka, KD, Curry? Cut that out man. These guys are all great players in bad situations, who in a better situation with better players and coaches can win. You can absolutely be a great team with a multiple B+ star players and great role players and coaching.

Some people are so infatuated with TS and other offensive stats that they are they are ready to give up 3FRP for a Lavine level player. It's not crapping on the player to have doubts that he will actually be great on a new team. Doncic, Butler, Morant, Donovan Mitchell etc. all have lower TS than Lavine or Beal, but they instantly make their teams winners. That is something to consider. We just went through the Melo fiasco. The leaguewide narrative was he couldn't win ( without AI or Billups) but we said, "oh look at his offensive numbers, let's give up every asset we can"
Some guys don't seem to impact winning as much as others and a lot of factors go into that. other than offense, the obvious ones are Defense, but also personality, work ethic, clutchness, effort. If a fanbase isn't buying a guy as a star, then maybe there's a reason that they're picking up on beside their slash line.

[Reign23]

So, lets sort out a few things, expanding on the post above.

It's nice the Knicks are winning some games.
They are playing CLEARLY better basketball than last year, even the "Miller" version.
The defense is much improved.
The offense isn't great, but you can see actual coaching with more wrinkles put in, more actions off the basic plays.

But the team really isn't that good. The record speaks for itself. We're all excited how "Knicks are winning" but a two game winning streak against undermanned teams and they are still two games under .500. They are a half game from the 6th spot, but also could easily slip to 8th or 9th once the Heat and Raptors make a move. Then again, the Hornets might start losing.

So, looking at a borderline playoff team/ good "bad" team or mediocre team.

Like a tweet posted earlier though, the Knicks are in a solid position as a franchise.

Even after with parting with an asset that was barely an asset anymore in DSJr, and a mid 2nd rounder for an obvious upgrade in DRose, The Knicks currently have:

All their own 1st round picks within the next 5 years (They have them further out as well, but 5 years is far enough into the future)
Mav's pick in 2021 and 2023
If not all their own 2nd rounders, then at least one 2nd round pick every year, with a high 2nd round pick in 2021 and multiple 2nd rounders in 2023 and 2024

A youthful roster with some talent and questions but young and cost controlled
RJ, IQ, Mitch, Knox, Obi

Randle is a good player they have control over for another year OR they could move on from if they needed to. He's also young for a vet, basically entering "prime years"

Their role players aren't great, but they aren't bad - most are "ok", they are all paid at an appropriate NBA salary, there is a commitment to none of them longer than a year and most would seem to have some kind of value around the league. I'm not saying finding a taker is easy, but a team might take a flyer on Frank for a decent 2nd rounder and guys like Burks, Noel, Bullocks, Rivers and Payton should at least draw some interest and I'd be surprised if the Knicks didn't trade at least one for a 2nd rounder and maybe the Knicks surprise us and get a late first rounder.

It's nice they are competitive and I'm enjoying it and everyone should, though it's also frustrating the Knicks are playing their way out of a strong chance for a top 7 pick in this upcoming deep draft, but if the FO and scouts have their act together, Knicks should come away with two good players.

And they have enough cap space to take a shot at guys like Trent Jr or THT or some theoretical trade etc.

Future looks pretty good. Can quibble about "they need a franchise guy" or "not set up to be true contenders" but in this season they are on the cusp of the next step up and will need some skill and some luck to maximize that.

good post

[rajajackal]

just wanna say i've been paying attention to this knox/obi chemistry since preseason. it would be a sin for our team not to give this a closer look as the season progresses

[Polk377]

I think that everyone is missing the point here. The current starters with Payton during beginning of games wound up USUALY in a hole where our bench winds up doing a comeback. The starters in my opinion should be Quickley and Rose with RJ at the three and Randle and Mitch/Noel. Then the floor is spaced out, we have better defense and can score inside and out.
Also, I don’t know why people are saying Paton plays good defense. I think he’s lazy on defense. He can play it but doesn’t commit to it every time. Countless of times I’ve seen a player drive to the basket and Payton just literally watching him with his arms down snd not moving. He is a good defender as he proved when Wall was trying to cross him over and couldn’t do it. If he does that all of the time and drives to the basket more but don’t have him shoot jumpers or three pointer because he fails there, then I can see an argument to keep him as starter.
But my suggested starting lineup would help RJ because he struggles when a good two is defending him, snd getting iq to play well as a starter will get him to adjust his game and grow to become a legit starter.

The point you are missing is Thibs is purposely using the bench as a change of pace lineup. The starting unit is designed to run through Randle and attack the basket. They will grind out possessions. Then the bench comes in and tries to catch them sleeping. I am not opposed to improving the starting lineup but not at the expense of diminishing the strength of the bench.

It makes sense what you stated but I think the key factor here is that we need to play at a better level with whomever is starting so that our bench players don’t have to play catch-up. Also, Randle can still play His game we’re just having at least Quickley Starting with or without Derrick Rose. Maybe you have a Derrick Rose continue playing from the bench with the second unit makes more sense and when they come in quickly can stay with that unit because he plays really well with them. Of course that will increase his minutes per game but that’s how Thibs plays his money guys such as Randle and to some extent RJ Although he has been decreasing RJ’s minutes Because he hasn’t been producing and missing too many sides.

The bench really isn't playing catch up as much as you think. The starting unit is not being blown out down 10+ when the bench comes in. The starting unit is capable of keeping the game close on a nightly basis. Thibs knows what he is doing and has a good sense to know what is and isn't working during a particular game.