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Game 22: MEM @ SAC

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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#21 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:54 am

Whole Truth wrote:
jman3134 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
Team leading +22 though.


He took over after I wrote that, keeping this crazy margin in tact.

Always was mad that we cut Whiteside, allowing him to sign with the Heat and resurrect his career.


Raptors cut him as well & he had off court issues in Miami concerning his playing time & usage.

Jonas has owned him regular season & playoffs.



He has always been a bit of a knucklehead, but he is talented as a rim protector. He was the 14th guy on our roster on a minimum, so that is a no brainer deal to me.

Not saying go get Whiteside at the expense of Jonas.

A lot of the attitude issues etc in Miami came with frustration concerning his role. To be fair, every classic big man has this same frustration given the insane spike in 3pters taken across the NBA.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#22 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:56 am

Careless TO's, give the Kings life to start the 4th .
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#23 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:59 am

jman3134 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
jman3134 wrote:
He took over after I wrote that, keeping this crazy margin in tact.

Always was mad that we cut Whiteside, allowing him to sign with the Heat and resurrect his career.


Raptors cut him as well & he had off court issues in Miami concerning his playing time & usage.

Jonas has owned him regular season & playoffs.



He has always been a bit of a knucklehead, but he is talented as a rim protector. He was the 14th guy on our roster on a minimum, so that is a no brainer deal to me.

Not saying go get Whiteside at the expense of Jonas.

A lot of the attitude issues etc in Miami came with frustration concerning his role. To be fair, every classic big man has this same frustration given the insane spike in 3pters taken across the NBA.


No, I'm aware you're not suggesting that.

Have to look at the fact that he's well travelled for such a talented big.. Portland too was ready to move on. You'd think if there wasn't deep rooted issues he would have stuck with someone by now.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#24 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:00 am

WE ARE 15 DEEP. TAKE THAT DEVIN BOOKER.

Our scrubs > your scrubs
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#25 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:02 am

God, I love Tillman, throw it down big man.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#26 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:08 am

I love Slow Mo.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#27 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:15 am

none of that bs in our paint!
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#28 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:16 am

Metu brought his knees up to sit on Jonas shoulders.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#29 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:19 am

Lol Jonas brings his knees up in retaliation but Cojo can't do **** about it.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#30 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:20 am

That was amazing. Jonas with the pettiness. Got me laughing here.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#31 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:31 am

jman3134 wrote:That was amazing. Jonas with the pettiness. Got me laughing here.


lol, he's got some bite.

A quiet 26/12/2 on 14 shots.

Tell me he couldn't average 20+ if he got 19-27 shots a game like Kat or Vucivic who are also sub par defenders.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#32 » by jman3134 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:52 am

Def could. I like his game. I don't think this is a permanent state of the NBA - moreso a league in flux. Everyone is trigger happy on the three point strategy and switching defenses, but that will change imo.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#33 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:38 pm

jman3134 wrote:Def could. I like his game. I don't think this is a permanent state of the NBA - moreso a league in flux. Everyone is trigger happy on the three point strategy and switching defenses, but that will change imo.


I think it's already changing when Raptors forced GS to have to play a hobbled Cousins to matchup with Gasol. Off that Raptors win, Lakers picked up Howard & McGee after trading for their small ball C, Davis.

Lakers had their physical big in Howard, their athletic rim runner in McGee & their small ball C in Davis. It's the depth & versatility I want for Memphis with Jonas/Tillman & 3J as the small ball C, though he's not really small ball, his game is.. I view Clarke as the PF with 3J at C. Which is why I wanted to draft Okongru & was happy about the Tillman pick as a potential future replacement & defensive depth option to Jonas.

Then, in losing both Howard & McGee this offseason. The Lakers didn't just stop with signing Harrell for depth, they signed an ageing slow footed Gasol for that big bodied post presence. (Different playing style/dynamic just for the teams that can throw an Embiid, Gobert or even a Jonas at them.

Also mentioned in another game thread If you look at the top 4-6 teams, the only team that doesn't have a traditional big, big bodied C, is the Clippers with Ibaka . I think it was a point of weakness for them last year & will be this. IMO, the difference, if & or when they face the Lakers who can give them different looks because of their depth & versatility at the position.

I really hope Memphis don't make the mistake & trade Jonas for anything other than a solid pick, which no team seems to be offering. Funny thing is, Kat & Vucevic are deemed worthy of those picks & more n Kats case .., when the only difference between them & Jonas is the volume of shots, with Jonas being in the same efficiency class as Kat, along with being the "winningest" player of the 3. People might say it's because he was playing with Lowry & Derozan but then he went to a rebuilding 22 win Memphis team who tore down it's roster of Gasol & Conley to only miss the playoffs due to injury in the bubble with a rookie Morant & softmore 3J who struggled with foul issues... (It was the only year Jonas has missed the playoffs since coming into the league in his 8 seasons.. with Lowry & Derozan missing the playoffs the year prior to him starting for the Raptors ...While Kat & Vucevic are on perennial losing teams with fans blaming the multiple fired coaches, rotating teammates & inevitably, the water boy ...
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#34 » by Whole Truth » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:32 pm

After this game, Jonas is averaging 17/11/2 on 11 APG, (27mins), 60.3% eFG%, 22.5 per.

Towns is averaging 21/11/3.5 on 15 APG, (32mins), 57% eFG, 24 per.

Yet Jonas is not worth more than a 2nd round pick
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#35 » by jman3134 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:42 am

Whole Truth wrote:
jman3134 wrote:Def could. I like his game. I don't think this is a permanent state of the NBA - moreso a league in flux. Everyone is trigger happy on the three point strategy and switching defenses, but that will change imo.


I think it's already changing when Raptors forced GS to have to play a hobbled Cousins to matchup with Gasol. Off that Raptors win, Lakers picked up Howard & McGee after trading for their small ball C, Davis.

Lakers had their physical big in Howard, their athletic rim runner in McGee & their small ball C in Davis. It's the depth & versatility I want for Memphis with Jonas/Tillman & 3J as the small ball C, though he's not really small ball, his game is.. I view Clarke as the PF with 3J at C. Which is why I wanted to draft Okongru & was happy about the Tillman pick as a potential future replacement & defensive depth option to Jonas.

Then, in losing both Howard & McGee this offseason. The Lakers didn't just stop with signing Harrell for depth, they signed an ageing slow footed Gasol for that big bodied post presence. (Different playing style/dynamic just for the teams that can throw an Embiid, Gobert or even a Jonas at them.

Also mentioned in another game thread If you look at the top 4-6 teams, the only team that doesn't have a traditional big, big bodied C, is the Clippers with Ibaka . I think it was a point of weakness for them last year & will be this. IMO, the difference, if & or when they face the Lakers who can give them different looks because of their depth & versatility at the position.

I really hope Memphis don't make the mistake & trade Jonas for anything other than a solid pick, which no team seems to be offering. Funny thing is, Kat & Vucevic are deemed worthy of those picks & more n Kats case .., when the only difference between them & Jonas is the volume of shots, with Jonas being in the same efficiency class as Kat, along with being the "winningest" player of the 3. People might say it's because he was playing with Lowry & Derozan but then he went to a rebuilding 22 win Memphis team who tore down it's roster of Gasol & Conley to only miss the playoffs due to injury in the bubble with a rookie Morant & softmore 3J who struggled with foul issues... (It was the only year Jonas has missed the playoffs since coming into the league in his 8 seasons.. with Lowry & Derozan missing the playoffs the year prior to him starting for the Raptors ...While Kat & Vucevic are on perennial losing teams with fans blaming the multiple fired coaches, rotating teammates & inevitably, the water boy ...


I don't think NBA evaluations make much sense these days in terms of big men who can shoot. Yes, it is helpful to have a big that can space the floor. However, if they are constantly camping out at the 3 point line, it completely negates their offensive rebounding capabilities and thus, you might as well be playing a better shooting wing (on the perimeter) instead. Of course, you could play them on the perimeter and rely on their rim protecting on the other end (remaining at the 3 pt line, they are closer to the other end of the floor to stop transition scores). Mostly, it just seems like copycat syndrome, without taking into account true strategic need.

Statistically, it appears rim protecting is the most critical quality for a big to have in basketball. The obsession with switching defenses makes sense from a strategic standpoint given the enforcement of freedom of motion rules. However, that will change when teams learn to better counter hot three point shooting. Closeout fundamentals are pretty atrocious in today's NBA game. When this happens, the traditional big man will be back en vogue and Jahlil Okafor can finally get his due as a gifted post player. Jonas too.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#36 » by VCfor3 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:47 pm

jman3134 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
jman3134 wrote:Def could. I like his game. I don't think this is a permanent state of the NBA - moreso a league in flux. Everyone is trigger happy on the three point strategy and switching defenses, but that will change imo.


I think it's already changing when Raptors forced GS to have to play a hobbled Cousins to matchup with Gasol. Off that Raptors win, Lakers picked up Howard & McGee after trading for their small ball C, Davis.

Lakers had their physical big in Howard, their athletic rim runner in McGee & their small ball C in Davis. It's the depth & versatility I want for Memphis with Jonas/Tillman & 3J as the small ball C, though he's not really small ball, his game is.. I view Clarke as the PF with 3J at C. Which is why I wanted to draft Okongru & was happy about the Tillman pick as a potential future replacement & defensive depth option to Jonas.

Then, in losing both Howard & McGee this offseason. The Lakers didn't just stop with signing Harrell for depth, they signed an ageing slow footed Gasol for that big bodied post presence. (Different playing style/dynamic just for the teams that can throw an Embiid, Gobert or even a Jonas at them.

Also mentioned in another game thread If you look at the top 4-6 teams, the only team that doesn't have a traditional big, big bodied C, is the Clippers with Ibaka . I think it was a point of weakness for them last year & will be this. IMO, the difference, if & or when they face the Lakers who can give them different looks because of their depth & versatility at the position.

I really hope Memphis don't make the mistake & trade Jonas for anything other than a solid pick, which no team seems to be offering. Funny thing is, Kat & Vucevic are deemed worthy of those picks & more n Kats case .., when the only difference between them & Jonas is the volume of shots, with Jonas being in the same efficiency class as Kat, along with being the "winningest" player of the 3. People might say it's because he was playing with Lowry & Derozan but then he went to a rebuilding 22 win Memphis team who tore down it's roster of Gasol & Conley to only miss the playoffs due to injury in the bubble with a rookie Morant & softmore 3J who struggled with foul issues... (It was the only year Jonas has missed the playoffs since coming into the league in his 8 seasons.. with Lowry & Derozan missing the playoffs the year prior to him starting for the Raptors ...While Kat & Vucevic are on perennial losing teams with fans blaming the multiple fired coaches, rotating teammates & inevitably, the water boy ...


I don't think NBA evaluations make much sense these days in terms of big men who can shoot. Yes, it is helpful to have a big that can space the floor. However, if they are constantly camping out at the 3 point line, it completely negates their offensive rebounding capabilities and thus, you might as well be playing a better shooting wing (on the perimeter) instead. Of course, you could play them on the perimeter and rely on their rim protecting on the other end (remaining at the 3 pt line, they are closer to the other end of the floor to stop transition scores). Mostly, it just seems like copycat syndrome, without taking into account true strategic need.

Statistically, it appears rim protecting is the most critical quality for a big to have in basketball. The obsession with switching defenses makes sense from a strategic standpoint given the enforcement of freedom of motion rules. However, that will change when teams learn to better counter hot three point shooting. Closeout fundamentals are pretty atrocious in today's NBA game. When this happens, the traditional big man will be back en vogue and Jahlil Okafor can finally get his due as a gifted post player. Jonas too.

Just take Utah and Gobert right now. They let him play a fairly traditional role and utilize his insane rim protection and they are a top 3 defense and offense even without a true lockdown wing defender. At some point I think it will circle back like you are saying though teams will still prefer a big with at least some semblance of a 3pt shot. JV has one and it is very helpful for us even though down in the paint is where he excels and spends most of his time. The nice thing for Gobert, JV, Capela, etc right now is that they are able to feast down low on teams without a true big defensive center.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#37 » by Whole Truth » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:29 pm

VCfor3 wrote: Just take Utah and Gobert right now. They let him play a fairly traditional role and utilize his insane rim protection and they are a top 3 defense and offense even without a true lockdown wing defender. At some point I think it will circle back like you are saying though teams will still prefer a big with at least some semblance of a 3pt shot. JV has one and it is very helpful for us even though down in the paint is where he excels and spends most of his time. The nice thing for Gobert, JV, Capela, etc right now is that they are able to feast down low on teams without a true big defensive center.


Best team in the league. Fortunately for Memphis, Jonas has had several career games against Utah & Gobert's defense.

I'm actually not looking for it to circle back. I'm trying to blend small ball & traditional big men into one versatile team option. Jonas is not going to command or ask for a lot of money to price him out of Memphis rotation. He's a loyal & manageable player, which gives Jenkins IMO much needed flexibility.

Jonas / Tillma - 3J
3J / Clarke - Anderson
? / Anderson - Brooks
?
Ja / Tyus - Melton

Jonas C, 3J PF allows Memphis to play big with 2 7 footers, inside out due to Jaren's versatility & mobility.

Tillman C, 3J = small ball rotation where Tillman handles size & length better than Clarke.

3J C, Clarke PF = small ball rotation, transition.

Tillman C, Clarke PF = Small, small ball, quicker defensive switches.

Give it time, this will be the best big man rotation in the league. Capable of playing 6 ways to Sunday. Health willing.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#38 » by VCfor3 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:11 pm

Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote: Just take Utah and Gobert right now. They let him play a fairly traditional role and utilize his insane rim protection and they are a top 3 defense and offense even without a true lockdown wing defender. At some point I think it will circle back like you are saying though teams will still prefer a big with at least some semblance of a 3pt shot. JV has one and it is very helpful for us even though down in the paint is where he excels and spends most of his time. The nice thing for Gobert, JV, Capela, etc right now is that they are able to feast down low on teams without a true big defensive center.


Best team in the league. Fortunately for Memphis, Jonas has had several career games against Utah & Gobert's defense.

I'm actually not looking for it to circle back. I'm trying to blend small ball & traditional big men into one versatile team option. Jonas is not going to command or ask for a lot of money to price him out of Memphis rotation. He's a loyal & manageable player, which gives Jenkins IMO much needed flexibility.

Jonas / Tillma - 3J
3J / Clarke - Anderson
? / Anderson - Brooks
?
Ja / Tyus - Melton

Jonas C, 3J PF allows Memphis to play big with 2 7 footers, inside out due to Jaren's versatility & mobility.

Tillman C, 3J = small ball rotation where Tillman handles size & length better than Clarke.

3J C, Clarke PF = small ball rotation, transition.

Tillman C, Clarke PF = Small, small ball, quicker defensive switches.

Give it time, this will be the best big man rotation in the league. Capable of playing 6 ways to Sunday. Health willing.

Sidetracking in our already sidetracked thread ha, but how do people see our lineup moving forward beyond this year? Anderson plays best at PF, but we have JJJ and Clarke there already. JJJ also probably needs some run at C since our small ball lineup with him can be absolutely elite from 3 with the right pieces and Clarke getting his shot back. Heck you could probably put some lineups out ith JJJ at the 5 and Anderson at the 4 that would be interesting. Brooks, Melton, Bane, and Allen are all probably best at SG but Brooks can play some SF and three guard lineups are an option at times.

PG: Ja (34), Tyus (14)
SG: Bane (24), Melton (17), Allen (6), Konchar (1)
SF: Brooks (24), Anderson (20), Allen (4)
PF: JJJ (24), Clarke (20), Anderson (4)
C: JV (28), Tillman (10), JJJ (10)

Ideally we get a starting SF in this draft, but at some point we probably will need to consolidate our depth.
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Re: Game 22: MEM @ SAC 

Post#39 » by Whole Truth » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:02 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
Whole Truth wrote:
VCfor3 wrote: Just take Utah and Gobert right now. They let him play a fairly traditional role and utilize his insane rim protection and they are a top 3 defense and offense even without a true lockdown wing defender. At some point I think it will circle back like you are saying though teams will still prefer a big with at least some semblance of a 3pt shot. JV has one and it is very helpful for us even though down in the paint is where he excels and spends most of his time. The nice thing for Gobert, JV, Capela, etc right now is that they are able to feast down low on teams without a true big defensive center.


Best team in the league. Fortunately for Memphis, Jonas has had several career games against Utah & Gobert's defense.

I'm actually not looking for it to circle back. I'm trying to blend small ball & traditional big men into one versatile team option. Jonas is not going to command or ask for a lot of money to price him out of Memphis rotation. He's a loyal & manageable player, which gives Jenkins IMO much needed flexibility.

Jonas / Tillma - 3J
3J / Clarke - Anderson
? / Anderson - Brooks
?
Ja / Tyus - Melton

Jonas C, 3J PF allows Memphis to play big with 2 7 footers, inside out due to Jaren's versatility & mobility.

Tillman C, 3J = small ball rotation where Tillman handles size & length better than Clarke.

3J C, Clarke PF = small ball rotation, transition.

Tillman C, Clarke PF = Small, small ball, quicker defensive switches.

Give it time, this will be the best big man rotation in the league. Capable of playing 6 ways to Sunday. Health willing.

Sidetracking in our already sidetracked thread ha, but how do people see our lineup moving forward beyond this year? Anderson plays best at PF, but we have JJJ and Clarke there already. JJJ also probably needs some run at C since our small ball lineup with him can be absolutely elite from 3 with the right pieces and Clarke getting his shot back. Heck you could probably put some lineups out ith JJJ at the 5 and Anderson at the 4 that would be interesting. Brooks, Melton, Bane, and Allen are all probably best at SG but Brooks can play some SF and three guard lineups are an option at times.

PG: Ja (34), Tyus (14)
SG: Bane (24), Melton (17), Allen (6), Konchar (1)
SF: Brooks (24), Anderson (20), Allen (4)
PF: JJJ (24), Clarke (20), Anderson (4)
C: JV (28), Tillman (10), JJJ (10)

Ideally we get a starting SF in this draft, but at some point we probably will need to consolidate our depth.



IMO, It all comes down to where Memphis see 3J playing most of his minutes. I have him down like Davis. Too injury prone to play C full time not handling the wear & tear of the position well. He's also a sub par rebounder at least for now. So I have him playing most of his minutes at PF where he'd be a 7' PF playing like a wing next to a bruising 7 foot C which with their size & inside out game, will wear down teams early, then move him to C or some combination of Tillman or Clarke to close defensively if Jonas is getting burned defensively or not a physical advantage.

So if Memphis see it as I do, with 3J getting most of his minutes at PF/ If Anderson is best suited as a 4, Where does that leave Clarke?

IMO I need to see how Winslow fits on this roster in order to make a decision on Anderson & or Clarke. I have Memphis drafting a 2 way wing that has the skill & size to play either SG/SF either next to Anderson at SF or one of Bane/Allen/Melton at SG

C - Jonas, Tillman - 3J
PF - 3J, Clarke - Anderson
SF - Anderson - Anderson - Melton
SG - Bane - Bane - Allen
PG - Ja - Tyus - Melton

Having said that, with 3J not having played a full season in his first 2 yrs, I wouldn't be quick to dump the depth in the front court.

IMO the hardest questions will be in consolidating the guard rotation - Brooks, Melton, Allen, Winslow, Anderson

Brooks competitive nature is his best asset, he brings the energy every game & the team feeds off it. Problem is, his aggression unchecked can be a crippling negative impact when he hijacks the offense.

Melton is looking like he could be an improving 3 & D wing, he does a lot of the little things that help the team win. Negative is when he over handles the ball/playmaking ability.

Allen. His shooting is much needed but I haven't got a good read on him yet.

Winslow, still hasn't played in over a season so injury has to be a big consideration in whether he stays or goes.

Anderson has grown so much this past few months evolving his game with a consistent 3 ball with his defense & playmaking might have moved ahead of both Clarke & Winslow for me in terms of retention. Where if Clarke can help Memphis in combination of picks net that SG/SF prospect, I think I pull the trigger on that consolidation trade backup 3J with Anderson if he doesn't start at SF.

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