Richard4444 wrote:Chanel Bomber wrote:Richard4444 wrote:
I did not say it was impossible. But it was very hard.
I am not trying to defend Dolan. But if the Lowry deal was indeed true. It would be a bad deal for Toronto. We cant make a point that trading for Melo was a great deal with an argument that we could get a star player in a trade for nothing. We would not have known we could get Lowry on discount before getting Melo.
Its very improbable that we can land a nice player without a lottery pick and half of our FRPs. It's very unlikely that we could trade trash for a star. Also, it was unlikely that we would have a nice roster without cap space and a team nice enough to attract ring chasers.
If we dont have a nice roster, nice prospects, cap space, lottery picks, we are the definition of a treadmill team. We have little room for improvement. We will need to rely on luck to find nice players late on the draft or develop cheap FAs
We had luck in 2013. We got a team full of end of career vets. But their bodies could not hold an entire season. They were cheap for a motive. We cant expect endurance for continuity for the next seasons with these kind of moves.
PS: Gobert is a way better offensive player than Tyson was.
The 2012-13 season was not the result of luck.
Melo was an All-NBA player and finished 3rd in MVP voting. We ran a system that worked and highlighted his strengths. Amar'e was injured for most of the year, which means he wasn't bringing the team down with his play.
The trade for Lowry was going down until Dolan stepped in and blocked it. It's not a theoretical trade that's unfair for the Raptors. It's a trade that was discussed and agreed to by both parties.
The point is that the Knicks were able to build a good team and it took a series of mistakes that came back to bite them that accelerated their demise. James Dolan has a lot of blood in his hands in that regard.
Had Dolan not intervened for the Bargnani and the Lowry trades, we would have been able to build upon the foundation that was laid in 2012-13 and probably even improved after a 54-win season. We would've been a contender for the foreseeable future, or close to it.
You're underestimating the negative impact of Bargnani (and Amar'e), and the missed opportunity of the Lowry trade.
We were a very good team and we had the assets to get even better. Dolan simply ruined it with two swings of the sword. The narrative that the Knicks couldn't build a good team after the Melo trade when they were the 2nd seed in the East two years after the trade, and had a deal lined up for another perennial All-Star in Lowry, is simply not rooted in facts.
It's a myth.
First, isolation heavy scorers who are not 2-way players or playmakers are not superstar players since the beginning of the last decade. Melo was not a superstar. He needs a good team around him to be efficient like happened in 2013.
Second, Lowry also was not a star by that time. That's the reason I spoke about lucky. No one thought Lowry would be a star. We almost got an epic deal. If were too easy to trade for the future stars, we could find another deal and we would not be obsessed with this epic fail.
Third, you are thinking too much about the specifics of that time. I am thinking about the moment after the Mello trade before knowing about the future. Without picks, good players in the roster, and cap space, it's too unlikely we can become a contender.
Forth, signing a bunch of end of career stars, its not a great strategy. Its unlikely they can hold heavy minutes all season and it's bad for continuity.
Dirk Nowitzki?
Dominant isolation player who was known neither for his defense nor his playmaking skills. He literally led the Mavericks to a championship in 2011, two seasons before the Knicks 54-win season. Right there, that invalidates your argument about that archetype, even if Dirk was better than Melo.
Melo was a superstar in his prime. Again, 3rd in MVP voting in 2013. The only reason he didn't make the All-NBA first team is because #1 and #2 in MVP voting took both forwards spots that year. Melo was a superstar at his peak. Not the best, for sure, but a superstar nonetheless. Or maybe you're right and
all the voters were wrong. Seems like a stretch.
No, I'm not thinking too much about the specifics. I'm just focused on the facts. We were a 54-win team with a trade lined up for another All-Star that was only derailed because peak Dolan intervened and messed everything up. Think of how many teams fire their executive after their best season in 13 years? It took Dolan reaching his final form of dysfunctional ownership to sink that team.
You are just trying to keep a false narrative alive. About how at the time of the trade, acquiring Melo was presumably bad not knowing the future. Well, you're wrong, because what the future showed us is that we'd become a good team that was the 2nd seed in the East, and that was on track to become even better had it not been for Dolan meddling and forcing the Bargnani trade and vetoing the Lowry trade.
The facts do not support your position bro.
, Randle’s isn’t, 
