Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics

[Ron Swanson]

Lots of teams everyone thought were serious contenders or at least home-court playoff seeds that are struggling (Miami, Brooklyn, Boston, Denver, Toronto, Dallas, and depending on you ask....us). I'm just not sure what to make of anything yet with no/limited crowds. No real home court advantage still and 3PT spamming has reached critical mass where outcomes seem to be just as much a product of variance or whoever "gets hot" more than actual talent or strategy.

I think we're gonna see some real shifts whenever we start packing arenas again. Bucks have been a historically great home team in the Bud era (63-13 in the RS, 6-2 in the playoffs) and weirdly enough are 9-2 so far this year. Maybe this team is worse than previous seasons because of the difference in roster depth, but I'm not really convinced that's something you shouldn't be able to overcome if you feel your top-tier talent is good enough.

[Ruzious]

Maybe they Det weird with some Westbrook for Blake stuff? Then both teams can repeat this next year.

Blake as a buyout guy? Well yea I guess I'd do it. We need someone in that position anyway. Theoretically some matchups he'd be good as 4 and Giannis at 5. But he does look like a shell of himself and there has been the known chippiness with Giannis. he really was good in 2019 but that injury last year looks like it might be the end for him.

That's an awful big buyout for Detroit to swallow. Frankly, he's been terrible this season to the point where I'd question if he can even help the Bucks.

[tydett]

Blake gonna get bought out, go to the Nets and be great in a sharply reduced role.

[Ron Swanson]

Also, Pat is officially the 205th highest paid player in the NBA. If you wanna name me 204 NBA players not on rookie contracts that are better role-players then go right ahead and send me the spreadsheet. I really don't get the hand-wringing outside of this board just constantly needing a new whipping boy.

[DingleJerry]

Think your assessment of 8/9 players is a bit high. Lakers would be someone like Caruso/Howard/Javale. Caruso shot 33% from 3 in a similar role/position, and shot 28% in the playoffs. Raps probably would be someone like Powell/Meeks/Mccaw. Warriors last title you're looking Quinn Cook/Nick Young/Jordan Bell. One before you're looking at Zaza/Ian Clark/McCaw/Mcgee type world. Cavs you're looking at our boy Dellavedova.

And those are the champions, not just contenders. The problem is they paid a mediocre 8/9 guy like he's 6/7th guy heavy contributor when you can get ballpark similar stuff for near league min. That's not Pat's fault.

[skones]

Also, Pat is officially the 205th highest paid player in the NBA. If you wanna name me 204 NBA players not on rookie contracts that are better role-players then go right ahead and send me the spreadsheet. I really don't get the hand-wringing outside of this board just constantly needing a new whipping boy.

How many of those guys provide what Pat does, have three year deals, and were given POs? None of them? Great. Small market teams need to win on the margins. Pat Connaughton is the literal demonstration of what not to do if you're a small market team let alone one trying to win a championship. We are hard capped because we used the MLE on Augustin and Pat Connaughton deals. Depth is obviously an issue on this team. That 5 million could have been put to FAR better use than it was.

[DingleJerry]

Yes, that should have nothing to do with assessing him on the court and now hating him for it. It's not his fault they screwed up his contract. He wasn't all of a sudden be a better player because they paid him more. Have to seperate the two.

[skones]

Think your assessment of 8/9 players is a bit high. Lakers would be someone like Caruso/Howard/Javale. Caruso shot 33% from 3 in a similar role/position, and shot 28% in the playoffs. Raps probably would be someone like Powell/Meeks/Mccaw. Warriors last title you're looking Quinn Cook/Nick Young/Jordan Bell. One before you're looking at Zaza/Ian Clark/McCaw/Mcgee type world. Cavs you're looking at our boy Dellavedova.

And those are the champions, not just contenders. The problem is they paid a mediocre 8/9 guy like he's 6/7th guy heavy contributor when you can get ballpark similar stuff for near league min. That's not Pat's fault.

I don't agree. Caruso/Howard/Javale provide A LOT more than Pat Connaughton. Toronto had OG (albeit injured later on), Lin, Powell. Just going to go ahead and state the obvious on Golden State, clear outliers with those KD teams given construction. 14/15, Lee, Speights, Barbosa. Cleveland, Shumpert, Mo, Jefferson.

And who the hell is sitting here blaming Pat for taking money? Nobody. It doesn't matter if "it's not Pat's fault," Jon Horst flat out demonstrated ineptitude. The bottom line here, is that Pat Connaughton should not have been retained. Torrey Craig gave a spitting image of Connaughton's production on a contender last season and he got the league minimum.

[M-C-G]

A Horford <> Blake swap as the core of a deal makes a lot of sense. Send Blake back to his hometown to ride out his final years.

[EugeneBucksFan]

Guys... Bucks are in a difficult situation with their salary space right know. But that's a product of many mistakes of the past. It's not only on Horst. Every draft pick after 2013 was bad (except brogdon) which means that they had 0 rookies or promising young guys to work with in trades. (Donte is decent but I think he will always be a rotation piece and I can't compare him to brogdon). The one time the owners had to go into the luxury tax for brogdon they didn't and we lost a very good player without getting anything in return. Also, there is 0 improvement of young guys the past years which means that they always have to rely on free agents and bigger contracts to cover the roster. Overpaying bledsoe and still paying 5 mil for fricking Leuer and Sanders is not ideal either. Also, as much as I like jrue I think we gave too many picks which also shortens our trading options. Last but not least Milwaukee is not an attractive destination for players. So, I hope that sums up why we are in such a difficult position, that our best bet for a good trade is Donte and our second best player Khris. Surely not ideal.

EDIT: My point is that Pat is not our biggest problem...
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[DingleJerry]

Think your assessment of 8/9 players is a bit high. Lakers would be someone like Caruso/Howard/Javale. Caruso shot 33% from 3 in a similar role/position, and shot 28% in the playoffs. Raps probably would be someone like Powell/Meeks/Mccaw. Warriors last title you're looking Quinn Cook/Nick Young/Jordan Bell. One before you're looking at Zaza/Ian Clark/McCaw/Mcgee type world. Cavs you're looking at our boy Dellavedova.

And those are the champions, not just contenders. The problem is they paid a mediocre 8/9 guy like he's 6/7th guy heavy contributor when you can get ballpark similar stuff for near league min. That's not Pat's fault.

I don't agree. Caruso/Howard/Javale provide A LOT more than Pat Connaughton. Toronto had OG (albeit injured later on), Lin, Powell. Just going to go ahead and state the obvious on Golden State, clear outliers with those KD teams given construction. 14/15, Lee, Speights, Barbosa. Cleveland, Shumpert, Mo, Jefferson.

And who the hell is sitting here blaming Pat for taking money? Nobody. It doesn't matter if "it's not Pat's fault," Jon Horst flat out demonstrated ineptitude. The bottom line here, is that Pat Connaughton should not have been retained. Torrey Craig gave a spitting image of Connaughton's production on a contender last season and he got the league minimum.

You seem to blaming him quite a bit. I said the same on overpaying, no one is arguing it's a good contract. Bashing the contract doesn't mean you have to overdo bashing the player himself. But acting like the guys sucks and is not an nba player is just flat out wrong and an overreaction.

And no, he's right in the same ballpark as those guys listed. There was games those bigs for LA couldn't' even get on the floor. I showed Caruso's stats, he's just a guy. You probably overrate those guys a smidge because you didn't watch every game like we do with our own guys so we don't get annoyed with their negatives that comes from watching over and over. None of those players are anything special at that point in their careers, just like pat isn't either. I went and looked at playoffs mins played and those are the guys in that range for all those teams.

No I didn't got back to the pre KD GSW team that was super deep, just didn't go that far but yea I'd guess their 8/9 area is clearly better. That's a forgotten part of those teams, that bench unit was loaded. But getting to them takes us back what 5-6 years, that certainly looks like the exception and Pat falls in line with the rule. And again, this was champs, not just contenders.

Speaking of that exception to the rule phrase. I heard a good joke on Bill Burr's podcast today. something along the lines of 'sure I can find a tall white with a big d@#k who can dunk a basketball but that's certainly not the normal'.

[skones]

You seem to blaming him quite a bit. I said the same on overpaying, no one is arguing it's a good contract. Bashing the contract doesn't mean you have to overdo bashing the player himself. But acting like the guys sucks and is not an nba player is just flat out wrong and an overreaction.

And no, he's right in the same ballpark as those guys listed. None of those players are anything special at that point in their careers, just like pat isn't either. I went and looked at playoffs mins played and those are the guys in that range for all those teams.

No I didn't got back to the pre KD GSW team that was super deep, just didn't go that far but yea I'd guess their 8/9 area is clearly better. That's a forgotten part of those teams, that bench unit was loaded. But getting to them takes us back what 5-6 years, that certainly looks like the exception and Pat falls in line with the rule. And again, this was champs, not just contenders.

Speaking of that exception to the rule phrase. I heard a good joke on Bill Burr's podcast today. something along the lines of 'sure I can find a tall white with a big d@#k who can dunk a basketball but that's certainly not the normal'.

8/9 guys on teams that win championships don't and largely shouldn't really see the floor in the playoffs. It's why they don't get long term deals. There's a gap between the guys listed not being "anything special" and "useful" which Pat often has trouble trouble living up to. That's the point here. I don't have to "act" like Pat Connaughton sucks. He does suck. That's sort of the issue.

I mean, you're not even willing to acknowledge that Pat can't hold a candle to the Howard/McGee/Caruso trio on last year's title winner, instead insisting that Pat is in the same ballpark as those guys. He's not.

[DingleJerry]

Well I and I think most should have a better way to phrase than going to the extreme of suck. There is a big middle ground of blah/mediocre and that's right where Pat falls. I know it's semantics a bit but that's a problem I've long had on this board, if a guy isn't perfect he sucks/trash/garbage.

Again, your assessment of 8/9 area is just off. It's not backed up by the stats/data at all. They do play in the playoffs and they're ballpark the same level of a player as Pat. That said, I'd totally grant Bud played him too much but just quick look and you'll see they get on the floor in almost every game. One example, Caruso last year shot 412/333 and scored 5.5. He played in every game in the playoffs and 425/218 and 6.5. Obviously we all know Delly too. Big guys are a tougher comp.

But overall to be acting like the biggest problem is some mediocre bench guy is an overreaction and seems like just needing a whipping boy. If as you say they don't or shouldn't play much in the playoffs then he's irrelevant and such a minor piece he shouldn't be talked about this much. At which point it comes down to a contract, you and I agree you can get similar results for near league min. But that doesn't change that he's perfect normal for an 8/9th man area on a winning NBA team.

[ShootingtheJ]

Also, Pat is officially the 205th highest paid player in the NBA. If you wanna name me 204 NBA players not on rookie contracts that are better role-players then go right ahead and send me the spreadsheet. I really don't get the hand-wringing outside of this board just constantly needing a new whipping boy.

How many of those guys provide what Pat does, have three year deals, and were given POs? None of them? Great. Small market teams need to win on the margins. Pat Connaughton is the literal demonstration of what not to do if you're a small market team let alone one trying to win a championship. We are hard capped because we used the MLE on Augustin and Pat Connaughton deals. Depth is obviously an issue on this team. That 5 million could have been put to FAR better use than it was.

We did not use the MLE on Pat, he was early bird rights. If we let Pat walk, we could only replace him with a minimum, and we'd still be hard capped.

[crowhead76]

Sign Napier and Ersan, still one open spot for BO.

Rozier - Napier - (2)Adams
Holiday - DDV - Forbes - Merrill
Middleton - Craig - Nwora
Giannis - Ersan - Thanasis
Portis - Bamba - (2)Diakite

[Matches Malone]

.

[ShootingtheJ]

Think your assessment of 8/9 players is a bit high. Lakers would be someone like Caruso/Howard/Javale. Caruso shot 33% from 3 in a similar role/position, and shot 28% in the playoffs. Raps probably would be someone like Powell/Meeks/Mccaw. Warriors last title you're looking Quinn Cook/Nick Young/Jordan Bell. One before you're looking at Zaza/Ian Clark/McCaw/Mcgee type world. Cavs you're looking at our boy Dellavedova.

And those are the champions, not just contenders. The problem is they paid a mediocre 8/9 guy like he's 6/7th guy heavy contributor when you can get ballpark similar stuff for near league min. That's not Pat's fault.

I don't agree. Caruso/Howard/Javale provide A LOT more than Pat Connaughton. Toronto had OG (albeit injured later on), Lin, Powell. Just going to go ahead and state the obvious on Golden State, clear outliers with those KD teams given construction. 14/15, Lee, Speights, Barbosa. Cleveland, Shumpert, Mo, Jefferson.

And who the hell is sitting here blaming Pat for taking money? Nobody. It doesn't matter if "it's not Pat's fault," Jon Horst flat out demonstrated ineptitude. The bottom line here, is that Pat Connaughton should not have been retained. Torrey Craig gave a spitting image of Connaughton's production on a contender last season and he got the league minimum.

Torrey Craig is below replacement level for his career, Pat was 1.8 VORP the last 2 years. The NBA analytics departs have they're own numbers, but they'll tell a similar story.

I wouldn't have paid Pat, but I understand why they did.

I don't understand what they saw in DJA, and that's where the problem lies.

[Plossum]

Sign Napier and Ersan, still one open spot for BO.

Rozier - Napier - (2)Adams
Holiday - DDV - Forbes - Merrill
Middleton - Craig - Nwora
Giannis - Ersan - Thanasis
Portis - Bamba - (2)Diakite

I know we don’t rate Hambone much around here but I’m not sure even he’s daft enough to entertain a trade like this.

[slos]

Some notes here taking into account previous posts.

1) Bucks overpaid for Jrue. No doubt. I'm glad they did though. He is an awesome fit next to Giannis and Midds. Horst needs to finish the job though and get his extension in late February to make it worth.

2) Bucks split their MLE and BAE to Augustin, Portis and Forbes. Horst gets the criticism for DJ, but the other two signings look like steals at this point. Two out of three is not a bad record when you have 13 mil to sign role players.

3) It was Connaughton or some other vet min player. Certainly the amount of money and the PO suck, but let's not overreact that Pat is the problem or that there was a vet min game changer out there available.

From my point of view we miss a piece to win it all. Jrue/Midds/Giannis could be enough in a past era with less talent around the league and fewer superteams to compete. It's sad but we are in the same pre-Jrue situation when we needed another borderline all star to be 2a and 2b with Midds next to Giannis. We need a 2c to beat Harden/Kyrie/KD or Lebron/AD or Kawhi/PG or other balanced teams like Utah/Philly/Denver/Boston/Miami etc. There are just too many. You need all the talent you can have.

That's why I route for Dipo. He will be the best player available at the deadline and we can have him despite our limited assets. I know he's not an ideal fit, but he can become a better 4th option than Brook. We need Dipo's D against guards/wings way more than Brook's D in the paint now that every single team shoots lights out from 3. Offensively you don't lose shooting (both Dipo and Lopez are 35% career shooters from 3) and you certainly have a better 4th scoring threat.

Let me clear something more too. No offence to Donte. He is doing great. The problem is that he is the only guard/role player that can defend. We knew from the beginning Forbes can't. Augustin and Pat being both garbage hurts. The plan is to give their minutes to Dipo and bring Forbes/Donte from the bench without cutting their role.

Jrue/Dipo/Midds/Giannis/Portis with DDV/Forbes make an awesome Top 7. This can be easily done IMO. We can give a 1st to Houston, Brook/Wilson + Augustin or Pat match salaries, add 1-2 2nds if needed. Get a 3rd team there. Horst needs to be creative in the deadline. Bring 1-2 bigs to fill the bench from the buyout market or from smaller trades and finish the job.

[tski1972]

Is Cory Joseph an upgrade to DJA at this point?