2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[bondom34]

Oh no, people on the internet are critiquing NBA players, how awful and inconsiderate!

That's a miss.

Critique is always welcome and has long been a significant part of this board.

The level of dialogue that has largely taken hold isn't remotely critique. It's hot takes, agendas, and hate posts. Maybe that's for you. Clearly its extremely popular.

But its fair for those of us who have strove for something more meaningful to bemoan this loss.

Yeah, of course there are hot takes, that's always been the case. But OP was just putting a million vague criticisms together to make a strawman point.

"Chris Paul never made the finals" is literally a fact. "Kawhi won in '14 because of the Spurs system" - another fact. How people use those facts and why is a different story.

If you don't like the discourse that's happening on this site, you're not going to change it by simply complaining about it. The only way to do it is by creating your idea of meaningful discourse. Nothing's stopping anyone here to start a serious analysis of something.

The discussion started on players seen as "villians", who have been getting negative attention. We've generally been doing a decent analysis on this subforum, doesn't change that the culture around the sport has a lot of poor discourse and overall brought it down. The Chris Paul and Kawhi stuff are examples that show a low level of discourse, and calling it out was just part of the discussion here.

As Chuck said, the level of overall dialogue that's largely taken hold on the NBA is agenda driven (as the CP3/Kawhi "facts" would be). It's what we're trying to avoid here. And is what I was trying to state.

If you think that it's a good point to make that Kawhi is a system player or Chris Paul never made a finals, cool. I'd say that's lowering the discourse and is something I'd want to avoid here and elsewhere.

[Texas Chuck]

If you don't like the discourse that's happening on this site, you're not going to change it by simply complaining about it. The only way to do it is by creating your idea of meaningful discourse. Nothing's stopping anyone here to start a serious analysis of something.

I didn't get to nearly 60,000 posts just complaining about this. I did so once and very tamely. I have my share of bad posts--got chided for one on this very board just yesterday as a matter of fact--but mostly I like to think I elevate discourse with the majority of my posts. As does bondom.

But just silently condoning the current tenor certainly doesn't make things better. If active board regulars don't step up and say hey let's strive for better while continuing to set an example then we deserve the crappy board we get.

And again this is judgement-free. I freely concede the masses like the hot takes and popping off about whatever agenda they hold. Those threads get the most traffic, the media members who operate this way get the biggest paychecks and aggregator sites make more money than quality original content creators.

So again, if you like this, that's cool. You will always be able to get it. I don't like it. So I'm gonna try and carve out some niches where we can more nuanced conversations with actual substance. Not always, I like jokes and fun too. But sometimes I just want to nerd out about basketball and I'm not ashamed of it.

[MartinToVaught]

Is Kawhi Leonard taking a lot of games off "irrational?"

The Kawhi slander is pretty irrational, actually. People act like it's some moral failure on his part that he has a degenerative injury that has to be managed.

[bondom34]

Man...won't lie. Seeing Blake and some other guys break down like this is a bummer. He was a guy who really changed his game and seems like his body just fell apart some. Hope he's remembered for how good he was.

[Clyde Frazier]

Man...won't lie. Seeing Blake and some other guys break down like this is a bummer. He was a guy who really changed his game and seems like his body just fell apart some. Hope he's remembered for how good he was.

Yup, figured out how to play at a fringe all NBA level as his athleticism started to wane. Now he basically has no lift at all. Pretty sad to watch.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Random fun fact I learned today

Tracking data and stuff is seen as more valuable to analytics department of teams than impact data, which teams meet with skepticism

Not in the sense of “we don’t get this stat” or anything because the guy that told me is very big brain, just more so it’s not viewed as all too helpful

[bondom34]

OK....Iggy was ready to sub in and Herro thought the ref was going to let him so took a quick warmup FT.....but the ref didn't and this counted. Don't see that one much.

Read on Twitter

[therealbig3]

Wonder if he'll actually get credit for the season he's been having if he keeps it up...Kyrie Irving has been the Nets' best player this season...better than Harden, better than Durant. He's been a top 10 player in the league, if not better.

[MartinToVaught]

No Kawhi, no PG, no Beverley, no Batum, still won on the second night of a back-to-back. Not only that, but they had 31 assists! That 2017-2019 magic came back tonight.

Seems like it's going to be an interesting trade deadline for the Heat. I can't figure out why they've regressed so much this season.

[limbo]

Wonder if he'll actually get credit for the season he's been having if he keeps it up...Kyrie Irving has been the Nets' best player this season...better than Harden, better than Durant. He's been a top 10 player in the league, if not better.

He's definitely having a career year so far, but i still wouldn't take him over either Harden or KD, and not just because of his off court stuff.

I would say Kyrie has definitely had to sacrifice the least on this Nets team in terms of playstyle. Harden sacrificed the most, he's basically a full-time PG right now, and in this role his scoring will never be as impressive as the other two. KD didn't sacrificed a lot, but he is the guy that just tries to move off ball and plug the gaps in the offense. Kyrie is the least restricted. He is the dude who monopolizes and breaks down the offense the most in favor of freestyle basketball, which he actually might be the best player on the team in doing that. As long as he's scoring it's fine, but when he's not there is no Plan B. He is much less successful in any other role, while KD and especially Harden less so.

[freethedevil]

No Kawhi, no PG, no Beverley, no Batum, still won on the second night of a back-to-back. Not only that, but they had 31 assists! That 2017-2019 magic came back tonight.

Seems like it's going to be an interesting trade deadline for the Heat. I can't figure out why they've regressed so much this season.

They missed all of their stars not named bam, covid and several games where they only had 7 people available. Not so sure its reguression as much as....we don't have anyone to play.

[freethedevil]

Random fun fact I learned today

Tracking data and stuff is seen as more valuable to analytics department of teams than impact data, which teams meet with skepticism

Not in the sense of “we don’t get this stat” or anything because the guy that told me is very big brain, just more so it’s not viewed as all too helpful

I mean, duh?

Front offices aren't interested in ranking superstars for how they played or all-time rankings. 99% of front office decisions revolve around role players whose skill-sets need to fit whatever specfic stuff they're running. The times where a team would have the luxury of being like, huh, we could have this very valuable player or --this-- very valuable player, ae exceedingly rare. Fit is a lot more important than talent or potential for 90% of players in the league.

[freethedevil]

Wonder if he'll actually get credit for the season he's been having if he keeps it up...Kyrie Irving has been the Nets' best player this season...better than Harden, better than Durant. He's been a top 10 player in the league, if not better.

Do you like, not care about anything outside of scoring? Where exactly is kyrie making up Harden's ridiculous volume and effiency in terms of assists?

[therealbig3]

Wonder if he'll actually get credit for the season he's been having if he keeps it up...Kyrie Irving has been the Nets' best player this season...better than Harden, better than Durant. He's been a top 10 player in the league, if not better.

Do you like, not care about anything outside of scoring? Where exactly is kyrie making up Harden's ridiculous volume and effiency in terms of assists?

I mean, Kyrie is off ball and Harden is predominantly on ball, obviously he'll get a lot more assists. Kyrie is scoring more, on comparable scoring efficiency, has been more capable in terms of creating offense in the half court, has been more consistent, and also hasn't been turning it over nearly as much as Harden, which does put those huge assists numbers in context as well.

Both have been great, but as someone that's been closely following the team all year, Kyrie has clearly been better so far. Reflected in the on/off and RPM as well. There have been many games where Harden has a pretty stat line but didn't play well at all. That's rarely been the case for Kyrie this season.

[MartinToVaught]

No Kawhi, no PG, no Beverley, no Batum, still won on the second night of a back-to-back. Not only that, but they had 31 assists! That 2017-2019 magic came back tonight.

Seems like it's going to be an interesting trade deadline for the Heat. I can't figure out why they've regressed so much this season.

They missed all of their stars not named bam, covid and several games where they only had 7 people available. Not so sure its reguression as much as....we don't have anyone to play.

They have Jimmy, Bam and Herro now and are still struggling. Clearly it's not just COVID and injuries.

[freethedevil]

No Kawhi, no PG, no Beverley, no Batum, still won on the second night of a back-to-back. Not only that, but they had 31 assists! That 2017-2019 magic came back tonight.

Seems like it's going to be an interesting trade deadline for the Heat. I can't figure out why they've regressed so much this season.

They missed all of their stars not named bam, covid and several games where they only had 7 people available. Not so sure its reguression as much as....we don't have anyone to play.

They have Jimmy, Bam and Herro now and are still struggling. Clearly it's not just COVID and injuries.

Chemistry is a thing yeah. If they just got their guys you'd expect it to take some time to gel Have they not won more with their stars back?

[bondom34]

Read on Twitter

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Saw this posted elsewhere, and am not totally sure I get it. Maybe I'm missing more, but in general felt like this is more or less an issue of fandom. I know players will always stick up for players, and tbh don't always have issues with someone asking for a trade.

I'm very much anti-"shut up and dribble" but at the same time don't know if this really applies for this issue (and tbh think fans problems are more when a player acts unprofessionally, not just when they ask for a trade).

[RCM88x]

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Saw this posted elsewhere, and am not totally sure I get it. Maybe I'm missing more, but in general felt like this is more or less an issue of fandom. I know players will always stick up for players, and tbh don't always have issues with someone asking for a trade.

I'm very much anti-"shut up and dribble" but at the same time don't know if this really applies for this issue (and tbh think fans problems are more when a player acts unprofessionally, not just when they ask for a trade).

If players are mad they are forced into situations like this then they shouldn't sign guaranteed contracts. Or another solution would be to not play poorly.

Players want to keep the cake and eat it too. Surprise Surprise

[Outside]

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Saw this posted elsewhere, and am not totally sure I get it. Maybe I'm missing more, but in general felt like this is more or less an issue of fandom. I know players will always stick up for players, and tbh don't always have issues with someone asking for a trade.

I'm very much anti-"shut up and dribble" but at the same time don't know if this really applies for this issue (and tbh think fans problems are more when a player acts unprofessionally, not just when they ask for a trade).

The point Draymond is making is the inequity of how like scenarios are treated, depending on who is initiating the scenario.

Scenario 1: Player wants to be traded, team doesn't want to accommodate the trade, player does various things to make the situation uncomfortable to pressure the team to trade him.

Scenario 2: Team wants to trade player, team sits player, player has to sit, work out (but not too hard, don't want him to get injured), and cheer his temporarily current teammates until he is traded.

Both scenarios are someone wanting to initiate a trade. In scenario 1, the player is often viewed negatively for wanting to be traded, and sometimes/often called unprofessional for initiating the trade. In scenario 2, the team wanting to initiate the trade is considered part of the business, and unless the player follows the script, the player is viewed as unprofessional.

The player and team have a contract, but due to the way sports leagues are structured, it is almost never a contract between equals. The team almost always has leverage. Unless the player has a no-trade clause, there is nothing the player can do about being traded by the team, even if the player wants to stay. But if the player wants to be traded, he has little leverage to get that done. He can ask the team for a trade, but if the team doesn't want to accommodate that, there is little a player can do other than make life miserable for the team.

From the players' standpoint, they have very limited careers, and if things change significantly in the middle of a player's contract so that the team is no longer a good fit for the player, the player has to either accept his lot in life (Bradley Beal) or do what is necessary to get to another team (James Harden).

When Harden signed his contract in 2017, things looked pretty good in Houston. D'Antoni was the coach, Morey was the GM, they had traded for Chris Paul, and they were set up to be a contender. Fast forward to this year, and Houston hadn't gotten to the finals, Morey was gone, D'Antoni was gone, and the Paul/Westbrook experiments had failed. Harden is 31. If he waits until his contract is up in the summer of 2022, that's two seasons of his prime wasted. He has career goals, and he's focused on winning a title or at least contending. That's not happening in Houston now. So he did what was best for him and forced a trade, using what he had at his disposal given the inequity in leverage.

Back to Draymond, I think he's just venting about players typically being viewed as "unprofessional," the bad guy, in those situations for doing what's best for them and forcing a trade, while teams are almost never viewed as the bad guy for doing what's best for them and trading players.

[bondom34]

Read on Twitter

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Saw this posted elsewhere, and am not totally sure I get it. Maybe I'm missing more, but in general felt like this is more or less an issue of fandom. I know players will always stick up for players, and tbh don't always have issues with someone asking for a trade.

I'm very much anti-"shut up and dribble" but at the same time don't know if this really applies for this issue (and tbh think fans problems are more when a player acts unprofessionally, not just when they ask for a trade).

The point Draymond is making is the inequity of how like scenarios are treated, depending on who is initiating the scenario.

Scenario 1: Player wants to be traded, team doesn't want to accommodate the trade, player does various things to make the situation uncomfortable to pressure the team to trade him.

Scenario 2: Team wants to trade player, team sits player, player has to sit, work out (but not too hard, don't want him to get injured), and cheer his temporarily current teammates until he is traded.

Both scenarios are someone wanting to initiate a trade. In scenario 1, the player is often viewed negatively for wanting to be traded, and sometimes/often called unprofessional for initiating the trade. In scenario 2, the team wanting to initiate the trade is considered part of the business, and unless player follows the script, the player is viewed as unprofessional.

The player and team have a contract, but due to the way sports leagues are structured, it is almost never a contract between equals. The team almost always has leverage. Unless the player has a no-trade clause, there is nothing the player can do about being traded by the team, even if the player wants to stay. But if the player wants to be traded, he has little leverage to get that done. He can ask the team for a trade, but if the team doesn't want to accommodate that, there is little a player can do other than make life miserable for the team.

From the players' standpoint, they have very limited careers, and if things change significantly in the middle of a player's contract so that the team is no longer a good fit for the player, the player has to either accept his lot in life (Bradley Beal) or do what is necessary to get to another team (James Harden).

When Harden signed his contract in 2017, things looked pretty good in Houston. D'Antoni was the coach, Morey was the GM, they had traded for Chris Paul, and they were set up to be a contender. Fast forward to this year, and Houston hadn't gotten to the finals, Morey was gone, D'Antoni was gone, and the Paul/Westbrook experiments had failed. Harden is 31. If he waits until his contract is up in the summer of 2022, that's two seasons of his prime wasted. He has career goals, and he's focused on winning a title or at least contending. That's not happening in Houston now. So he did what was best for him and forced a trade, using what he had at his disposal given the inequity in leverage.

Back to Draymond, I think he's just venting about players typically being viewed as "unprofessional," the bad guy, in those situations for doing what's best for them and forcing a trade, while teams are almost never viewed as the bad guy for doing what's best for them and trading players.

I guess I'm coming at it from the fans perspective. As well, I'm a little less sure on fans being against players wanting a trade and more against them acting out on it (ie I don't know if there's pushback if Harden doesn't party maskless or if guys don't act out). Westbrook asked out of the same team at the same time and there wasn't really much backlash, Paul George asked out of OKC by some rumors and there really wasn't any either.

Not sure if this makes sense as a way to think on it, but most fans cheer for a team, not a player all the time. There are some cases of fans only cheering a player over a team, and I've heard folks also claim this as a negative connotation toward fans. So if we're ceding that most fans cheer for a team, they're going to inherently side with what's best for that team, and if we're not concerned with fans I'm not sure what the league is doing either. Plus in the end I guess I just see it as sort of the nature of the business, it's a public position where the player knew what they're getting into beforehand.

I guess just in the end the league is sort of not run by fans but if there are no fans there's no league, and most of them cheer for their given team. Saying this I love listening to Draymond talk, just not sure I really totally get him on this one.

Edit: Also, even just in terms of people in general I guess it seems like something that's a part of being a pro athlete. It's not always a situation where everyone will like what you do, but in some way the players are employees of the team I'd think, so the team sort of has that ability more. IDK, maybe I'm off on this one, it just almost feels like this one falls under something that's part of the job. To add to that, we're at a point in the NBA where teams/owners do take some heat too. Fertitta's pretty scummy in general, but since he bought the Rockets they've gone way downhill. Poorly run teams take heat a bit too.