NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[yoyoboy]

I'd have Embiid and Dame clearly over Lebron at this point. "Team record" doesn't matter at all to me when we're still this early in the season and the Lakers only have 3-4 more wins than the Sixers and Blazers, especially when those two guys are absolutely crushing him in almost every metric. Once Denver's record evens out (they're still Top-5 in point differential), then Jokic is another pretty easy argument to make.

Lillard:
29.8 ppg / 7.7 apg / 4.4 rpg / 62.5% TS / 6.3 BPM / .225 WS/48 / +4.5 On-Court / +13.5 On-Off / +5.54 RPM / +4.7 RAPTOR / +2.97 LEBRON / 0.16 Team SRS / 18-10 Team Record

LeBron:
25.7 ppg / 7.9 apg / 8.3 rpg / 60.0% TS / 7.2 BPM / .200 WS/48 / +9.8 On-Court / +9.5 On-Off / +8.72 RPM / +7.0 RAPTOR / +5.43 LEBRON / 6.21 Team SRS / 22-7 Team Record

How is Lillard crushing LeBron in every metric exactly? And Embiid has probably been a little better than LeBron but he's missed over 20% of the season so far. That factors into things when you're talking about overall value this season. You can't provide value when you're not available.

[stormi]

Read on Twitter

Statistically we have a Jokic/Embiid partnership at the top, with Kawhi right there and Lebron a bit behind him for your top 4 candidates. This, of course excluding factors like team success and durability that would hit some of these players' campaign. The narrative factor as well.

[Ballerhogger]

Read on Twitter

Statistically we have a Jokic/Embiid partnership at the top, with Kawhi right there and Lebron a bit behind him for your top 4 candidates. This, of course excluding factors like team success and durability that would hit some of these players' campaign. The narrative factor as well.

Looking at this overall record Joel has slight lead over lebron. Jokic is not very close after losing the wizards and boston back to back.
1.Embiid
2.Lebron

3.Jokic
4.Lillard.

[yoyoboy]

Read on Twitter

Statistically we have a Jokic/Embiid partnership at the top, with Kawhi right there and Lebron a bit behind him for your top 4 candidates. This, of course excluding factors like team success and durability that would hit some of these players' campaign. The narrative factor as well.

This would probably form an accurate list if they actually used the cumulative stats instead of the averages for those metrics. Kawhi and Embiid have to be docked for missing a quarter and a fifth of the season respectively. They'd be providing more value to their teams if they had subpar games during the time they missed even though it would actually detract from their metrics. And it's easier to perform well when you have more rest. Whereas guys like LeBron, Steph, and Jokic are out there every night. My list is:

1. Jokic
2. LeBron
3. Curry
4. Gobert
5. Lillard
6. Embiid
7. Kawhi
8. Giannis
9. Doncic
10. Davis
HM: Durant, Harden

Obviously it's subject to change. But if things continue and by the end of the season guys like Embiid and Kawhi have missed something like 15/72 games I don't see how you can ignore that. Their teams are losing games without them in there and while that provides information about how valuable they are to their teams when they're actually on the court, the best attribute is availability. If you're missing 20% of the season you better be playing at least 20% better than the competition when you're out there to make up for it.

[clyde21]

agree with the above list^, I think yoyo hits it out of the ballpark in this thread

[stormi]

Any list with Embiid out of the top 3 is just dishonest by all definitions of the award. He's having an all time great caliber season as the clear best player on a team leading his conference. Averaging 29.7 on elite splits with a 16 point on/off differential and blowing up any advanced analytic you can find. The only argument Lebron has over him is the fact that he's played more games (fair), although that should be less of a consideration if Embiid plays his proper share and secures his team the 1st seed over Brooklyn.

But he's been labouring heavily in his movements since Lebron sent him crashing onto his spine, so it's a concern for sure.

Read on Twitter

[Impuniti]

Any list with Embiid out of the top 3 is just dishonest by all definitions of the award. He's having an all time great caliber season as the clear best player on a team leading his conference. Averaging 29.7 on elite splits with a 16 point on/off differential and blowing up any advanced analytic you can find. The only argument Lebron has over him is the fact that he's played more games (fair), although that should be less of a consideration if Embiid plays his proper share and secures his team the 1st seed over Brooklyn.

But he's been labouring heavily in his movements since Lebron sent him crashing onto his spine, so it's a concern for sure.

Read on Twitter

Anyone that misses 12+ games should be disqualified. To me, that's the biggest question mark I have in regards to Embiid winning it. It's why in my list, KD is already out and Kawhi is slowly getting to that stage.

[stormi]

Any list with Embiid out of the top 3 is just dishonest by all definitions of the award. He's having an all time great caliber season as the clear best player on a team leading his conference. Averaging 29.7 on elite splits with a 16 point on/off differential and blowing up any advanced analytic you can find. The only argument Lebron has over him is the fact that he's played more games (fair), although that should be less of a consideration if Embiid plays his proper share and secures his team the 1st seed over Brooklyn.

But he's been labouring heavily in his movements since Lebron sent him crashing onto his spine, so it's a concern for sure.

Read on Twitter

Anyone that misses 12+ games should be disqualified. To me, that's the biggest question mark I have in regards to Embiid winning it. It's why in my list, KD is already out and Kawhi is slowly getting to that stage.

Sounds a little too arbitrary for me.

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East and he's the definite driving force while playing most of the games, but when he sits are a lottery team (1-5 currently without him)... what ground is there to stand on that he hasn't been the most valuable player of the regular season?

My position on this dissipates however if the 76ers do not win the east. The world class numbers aren't enough of a ground to stand on alone, Jokic effect.

[Impuniti]

Any list with Embiid out of the top 3 is just dishonest by all definitions of the award. He's having an all time great caliber season as the clear best player on a team leading his conference. Averaging 29.7 on elite splits with a 16 point on/off differential and blowing up any advanced analytic you can find. The only argument Lebron has over him is the fact that he's played more games (fair), although that should be less of a consideration if Embiid plays his proper share and secures his team the 1st seed over Brooklyn.

But he's been labouring heavily in his movements since Lebron sent him crashing onto his spine, so it's a concern for sure.

Read on Twitter

Anyone that misses 12+ games should be disqualified. To me, that's the biggest question mark I have in regards to Embiid winning it. It's why in my list, KD is already out and Kawhi is slowly getting to that stage.

Sounds a little too arbitrary for me.

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East and he's the clear best player on it, and plays most of the games. But when he sits, they're a lottery team (1-5 currently without him)... what ground is there to stand on that he hasn't been the most valuable player of the regular season?

If the Sixers don't win the east though, but he continues to put up world class numbers while missing games however, I'm right there with you.

Well the east is absolute hot garbage, so it doesn't mean much. Only 3 teams being above .500 is one of the most pathetic statistics I've ever seen in regards to the NBA. Embiid is the King of the team and they suffer greatly when he is not there, I don't think anyone argues otherwise. But being brittle and missing games is a massive negative, nothing arbitrary about it. You need to show up consistently for your team, and he likely won't.

Asking to play 80%+ of the season is not arbitrary, it's a basic requirement that everyone has and had to deal with.

[stormi]

Anyone that misses 12+ games should be disqualified. To me, that's the biggest question mark I have in regards to Embiid winning it. It's why in my list, KD is already out and Kawhi is slowly getting to that stage.

Sounds a little too arbitrary for me.

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East and he's the clear best player on it, and plays most of the games. But when he sits, they're a lottery team (1-5 currently without him)... what ground is there to stand on that he hasn't been the most valuable player of the regular season?

If the Sixers don't win the east though, but he continues to put up world class numbers while missing games however, I'm right there with you.

Well the east is absolute hot garbage, so it doesn't mean much. Only 3 teams being above .500 is one of the most pathetic statistics I've ever seen in regards to the NBA. Embiid is the King of the team and they suffer greatly when he is not there, I don't think anyone argues otherwise. But being brittle and missing games is a massive negative, nothing arbitrary about it. You need to show up consistently for your team, and he likely won't.

Asking to play 80%+ of the season is not arbitrary, it's a basic requirement that everyone has and had to deal with.

The best player on any team that win their conference will be in consideration for the award. I'm not saying he should win it, but having him outside of the top 3 is absurd.

Also for your benchmark, he's played 23 of the 29 76ers games this season, 79.3%, so... by your definition if he continues with his play rate, or slightly upticks it then he's in consideration again? It's not like he's only played half of his available games. What's the amount he has to hit to get the 'Impuniti' stamp of approval, 81%? 85%?

[Impuniti]

Sounds a little too arbitrary for me.

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East and he's the clear best player on it, and plays most of the games. But when he sits, they're a lottery team (1-5 currently without him)... what ground is there to stand on that he hasn't been the most valuable player of the regular season?

If the Sixers don't win the east though, but he continues to put up world class numbers while missing games however, I'm right there with you.

Well the east is absolute hot garbage, so it doesn't mean much. Only 3 teams being above .500 is one of the most pathetic statistics I've ever seen in regards to the NBA. Embiid is the King of the team and they suffer greatly when he is not there, I don't think anyone argues otherwise. But being brittle and missing games is a massive negative, nothing arbitrary about it. You need to show up consistently for your team, and he likely won't.

Asking to play 80%+ of the season is not arbitrary, it's a basic requirement that everyone has and had to deal with.

The best player on any team that win their conference will be in consideration for the award. I'm not saying he should win it, but having him outside of the top 3 is absurd.

Also for your benchmark, he's played 23 of the 29 76ers games this season, 79.3%, so... by your definition if he continues with his play rate, or slightly upticks it then he's in consideration again? It's not like he's only played half of his available games. What's the amount he has to play to get the 'Impuniti' stamp of approval, 85%?

viewtopic.php?p=88922553#p88922553

I already have Embiid as #2. My point is that he needs to miss less games than he currently is. And it's not just an Impunity marker, it's a general marker that has been used on who wins MVPs for decades now.

[stormi]

Well the east is absolute hot garbage, so it doesn't mean much. Only 3 teams being above .500 is one of the most pathetic statistics I've ever seen in regards to the NBA. Embiid is the King of the team and they suffer greatly when he is not there, I don't think anyone argues otherwise. But being brittle and missing games is a massive negative, nothing arbitrary about it. You need to show up consistently for your team, and he likely won't.

Asking to play 80%+ of the season is not arbitrary, it's a basic requirement that everyone has and had to deal with.

The best player on any team that win their conference will be in consideration for the award. I'm not saying he should win it, but having him outside of the top 3 is absurd.

Also for your benchmark, he's played 23 of the 29 76ers games this season, 79.3%, so... by your definition if he continues with his play rate, or slightly upticks it then he's in consideration again? It's not like he's only played half of his available games. What's the amount he has to play to get the 'Impuniti' stamp of approval, 85%?

viewtopic.php?p=88922553#p88922553

I already have Embiid as #2. My point is that he needs to miss less games than he currently is. And it's not just an Impunity marker, it's a general marker that has been used on who wins MVPs for decades now.

I called it arbitrary because it seems like it'll be the reoccurring convenient excuse that will be propped up to \ dismiss Embiid's MVP legitimacy no matter how well he plays, which is harsh. I've never not agreed that he needs to play his proper share of games and hit a plateau of team success to be rightfully deserving. If Lebron wins the award because he played 10 more games than another candidate that clearly outperformed him, it'll be a larceny imo.

[BNM]

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East...

Is 19-10 really that impressive in the East? This year? Ever?

POR is 18-10 in the West and has played over half their games without their 2nd and 3rd best players. They also beat PHI/Embiid twice (without said 2nd and 3rd best players). Now THAT's a carry job!

[stormi]

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East...

Is 19-10 really that impressive in the East? This year? Ever?

POR is 18-10 in the West and has played over half their games without their 2nd and 3rd best players. They also beat PHI/Embiid twice (without said 2nd and 3rd best players). Now THAT's a carry job!

18-5 for Embiid on the season is pretty decent I'd say? He also dropped 37 and 35 in both of those Portland games, but it's a bad matchup for the Sixers in general who rely on washed Danny Green to be one of their essential defenders against a Blazers team with a lot of talented guards to just abuse him.

Injury talk, Ben and Milton missed the Portland games, and it wasn't even really Dame who had an inspiring performance, shot 6/21 & was a -8, but Carmelo Anthony decided to channel his spirit of 2012 and just fried Tobias Harris. He's a baller though and deserves to be mentioned itt. I'm not disagreeing at all.

[BNM]

If it's a regular season award, and his team wins the East...

Is 19-10 really that impressive in the East? This year? Ever?

POR is 18-10 in the West and has played over half their games without their 2nd and 3rd best players. They also beat PHI/Embiid twice (without said 2nd and 3rd best players). Now THAT's a carry job!

18-4 for Embiid on the season is pretty decent I'd say? He also dropped 37 and 35 in both of those Portland games, but it's a bad matchup for the Sixers in general who rely on washed Danny Green to be one of their essential defenders against a Blazers team with a lot of talented guards to just abuse him.

First 18-4 is irrelevant to MVP voters. They only look at overall record. Embiid's lack of availability actually hurts him twofold in the MVP race. First, if he misses a significant number of games, it will cost him votes. Second, the more games he misses, the worse PHI's record, which will also count against him in the eyes of the voters.

In both of those POR games, Embiid disappeared in the second half and was totally owned on the boards by Enes "Can't Play" Kanter. Kanter outrebounded him 32 - 14. In both games, POR let Embiid go off in the first half with single coverage from Kanter (not exactly known for his defense) and then started throwing double teams at him in the second half, which took him out of his game. Only a 2-game sample size, but not exactly MVP level performances in either - especially given the quality of POR's bigs and the final results. If PHI, with a healthly Joel Embiid, can't beat and undermanned POR team, they would get killed in the West.

Injury talk, Ben and Milton missed the Portland games, and it wasn't even really Dame who had an inspiring performance, shot 6/21 & was a -8, but Carmelo Anthony decided to channel his spirit of 2012 and just fried Tobias Harris. He's a baller though and deserves to be mentioned itt. I'm not disagreeing at all.

Oh please. No one gets to play the injury excuse against POR this year. Here's who they were missing in the two games against PHI, and still managed to win both:

1st game DNP:
Damian Lillard
C.J. McCollum
Jusuf Nurkic
Zach Colling
Derrick Jones Jr.
Nassir Little

POR had 9 active players for that game. They were:

Starters:
Gary Trent
Rodney Hood
Robert Covington
Carmelo Anthony
Enes Kanter

Bench:
CJ Elleby (who?)
Anfernee Simons
Harry Giles
Keljin Blevins (who x 2?)

And they still blew out the 76ers, with a healthy Embiid, on their home floor.

2nd Game DNP:
C.J. McCollum
Jusuf Nurkic
Zach Collins
Nassir Little

[BNM]

Without Jokic, the Nuggets would probably be dead last in the West.

Tied with POR without Lillard.

[stormi]

Is 19-10 really that impressive in the East? This year? Ever?

POR is 18-10 in the West and has played over half their games without their 2nd and 3rd best players. They also beat PHI/Embiid twice (without said 2nd and 3rd best players). Now THAT's a carry job!

18-4 for Embiid on the season is pretty decent I'd say? He also dropped 37 and 35 in both of those Portland games, but it's a bad matchup for the Sixers in general who rely on washed Danny Green to be one of their essential defenders against a Blazers team with a lot of talented guards to just abuse him.

First 18-4 is irrelevant to MVP voters. They only look at overall record. Embiid's lack of availability actually hurts him twofold in the MVP race.

You're hopping into a discussion and regurgitating conversation points that have already been made. I'm not reading that almanac. Yes Embiid loses points for the 6 games he's missed and rightfully so. If he can clean up his missed time (big ask) and get into a consistent play rhythm, continue to boss the advanced analytics, continue to average 30 on 54/39/85 and lead his team to the best record in the conference he'll have an undeniable case to be the rightful MVP.

[BNM]

18-4 for Embiid on the season is pretty decent I'd say? He also dropped 37 and 35 in both of those Portland games, but it's a bad matchup for the Sixers in general who rely on washed Danny Green to be one of their essential defenders against a Blazers team with a lot of talented guards to just abuse him.

First 18-4 is irrelevant to MVP voters. They only look at overall record. Embiid's lack of availability actually hurts him twofold in the MVP race.

You're hopping into a discussion and regurgitating conversation points that have already been made. I'm not reading that almanac. Yes Embiid loses points for the 6 games he's missed and rightfully so. If he can clean up his missed time (big ask) and get into a consistent play rhythm, continue to boss the advanced analytics, continue to average 30 on 54/39/85 and lead his team to the best record in the conference he'll have an undeniable case to be the rightful MVP.

So, all Joel has to do is accomplish two things hes never done before (have a healthy season and lead his team to a No. 1 seed) and he's a lock to win the MVP.

Ok...

[KqWIN]

18-4 for Embiid on the season is pretty decent I'd say? He also dropped 37 and 35 in both of those Portland games, but it's a bad matchup for the Sixers in general who rely on washed Danny Green to be one of their essential defenders against a Blazers team with a lot of talented guards to just abuse him.

First 18-4 is irrelevant to MVP voters. They only look at overall record. Embiid's lack of availability actually hurts him twofold in the MVP race.

You're hopping into a discussion and regurgitating conversation points that have already been made. I'm not reading that almanac. Yes Embiid loses points for the 6 games he's missed and rightfully so. If he can clean up his missed time (big ask) and get into a consistent play rhythm, continue to boss the advanced analytics, continue to average 30 on 54/39/85 and lead his team to the best record in the conference he'll have an undeniable case to be the rightful MVP.

Leading his team to the best record in the conference is also a meaningless point though right? If anything, it highlights a negative for Embiid which is that he plays in a significantly worse conference.

I’m not one of those people who think MVP should be completely divorced from narratives, but leading his team to the number one seed in the East is as weak as it gets. Embiid’s production and stats speak for themselves...but he really doesn’t have the best player on the best or even elite team going for him.

[stormi]

First 18-4 is irrelevant to MVP voters. They only look at overall record. Embiid's lack of availability actually hurts him twofold in the MVP race.

You're hopping into a discussion and regurgitating conversation points that have already been made. I'm not reading that almanac. Yes Embiid loses points for the 6 games he's missed and rightfully so. If he can clean up his missed time (big ask) and get into a consistent play rhythm, continue to boss the advanced analytics, continue to average 30 on 54/39/85 and lead his team to the best record in the conference he'll have an undeniable case to be the rightful MVP.

So, all Joel has to do is accomplish two things hes never done before (have a healthy season and lead his team to a No. 1 seed) and he's a lock to win the MVP.

Ok...

Yea, if he plays how he has until now, for the rest of the season he absolutely deserves to be the MVP. He's already put up a great campaign two years ago when he became the first player ever to put up 27&13 for an entire season and not win the award. He's not a fodder player on a purple patch run. He's special talent and I'm glad this year he's getting some recognition.