Julius Randle IS a 'cornerstone' player

[Richard4444]

Let's state our assumptions

* that he stays in shape and has turned the corner on that chapter of his career
* 3 point shooting settles at something like 35%, I think saying he'll shoot 40% for the rest of his career is a reach we both agree on
* the assumption that he'll play out next year for ~$20 million, which at current production even on a bad team is a value contract
* the team he's being traded to intends to sign him to his next deal, which would likely run from age 28 to 32 or 33

To make things simple lets assume we aren't taking back terrible contracts, that would add to our haul (John Wall / Westbrick / WIggins / DeAngelo Russell or some absolute cap wrecker).

I'd happily trade him for either a ~22-23 year old high end prospect (examples would be MPJ, Collins) and a mid 1st rounder (expected to be 10-15). Or 1 good (potentially 1-10) 1st rounder and a mid 1st rounder.

I'd probably take any of the top 8 or so from this past draft except Okongwu who might not be in the league in a year.

Do you really expect trading Randle get us MPJ + lottery pick or 2 lottery picks?

No, but you'd snap take that trade right?

But there are a non-zero number of people on this board that don't think that's enough. Does that cement how far off from the league wide view some of the people who like Randle are on this board? All this as we soar to same effective record as the Bulls.

MPJ + lottery = Yes.
2 lottery = only if the sum of the picks is less than 20.

[nedleeds]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Why are we talking about contenders right now?

Collins and MPJ are worse than Randle, no matter what role you put them in.

They're both better than Randle was when he was 22 or 23. That's the point. So if the Hawks or Nuggets have a mandate to win more now, a 26 year old might make more sense for htem.

[GONYK]

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Why are we talking about contenders right now?

Collins and MPJ are worse than Randle, no matter what role you put them in.

They're both better than Randle was when he was 22 or 23. That's the point. So if the Hawks or Nuggets have a mandate to win more now, a 26 year old might make more sense for htem.

We also have a mandate to win more now

[nedleeds]

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Agree, and they wouldn't be that here. Randle being the main facilitator gets you the 6th worst offensive rating in the league and a sub .500 record in a turd salad East. That's the point. Collins has shot 40% on high volume from 3 for two seasons. He's a great fit next to a defensive monster and rim roller like Mitch.

IQ
(A GOOD PICK THIS YEAR)
RJ
Collins
Mitch

or sub in MPJ ... sign me up. But neither of those teams would do that.

No, surrounding Randle with terrible shooters gets you that.

MPJ and Collins don't fix that. The ceiling of the team is lower with those players, even if we are comparing all 3 players as third options.

Certainly doesn't help. But I'm not comparing 26 year old Collins and MPJ. They're both 3 years younger. Randle gets us nowhere relevant right now and our offense is ****. Trading him resets the clock and has no real impact on winning, because we aren't winning anything anyway with Randle. It may get us the 8-10 tank wins we need to get a young difference maker in this draft.

[nedleeds]

Why are we talking about contenders right now?

Collins and MPJ are worse than Randle, no matter what role you put them in.

They're both better than Randle was when he was 22 or 23. That's the point. So if the Hawks or Nuggets have a mandate to win more now, a 26 year old might make more sense for htem.

We also have a mandate to win more now

Yeah, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not saying we'd actually do any of this. This is why we have had a top 3 worst front office for 20 years. Because we prioritize fake winning over player development and patience. We trade for Derrick Rose. We trade for Bargnani. We trade for Carmelo instead of just signing him. We give Amare the extra year and stretch Billups. We don't play and try to develop the young lottery picks that have options we need to decide on. We sign Elfrid Payton and play him 25+ minutes a game.

[Richard4444]

Agree, and they wouldn't be that here. Randle being the main facilitator gets you the 6th worst offensive rating in the league and a sub .500 record in a turd salad East. That's the point. Collins has shot 40% on high volume from 3 for two seasons. He's a great fit next to a defensive monster and rim roller like Mitch.

IQ
(A GOOD PICK THIS YEAR)
RJ
Collins
Mitch

or sub in MPJ ... sign me up. But neither of those teams would do that.

No, surrounding Randle with terrible shooters gets you that.

MPJ and Collins don't fix that. The ceiling of the team is lower with those players, even if we are comparing all 3 players as third options.

Certainly doesn't help. But I'm not comparing 26 year old Collins and MPJ. They're both 3 years younger. Randle gets us nowhere relevant right now and our offense is ****. Trading him resets the clock and has no real impact on winning, because we aren't winning anything anyway with Randle. It may get us the 8-10 tank wins we need to get a young difference maker in this draft.

Collins will cost more than Randle. So it does not reset the clock.

[JBreezeNY]

he's that player that a smart team would trade before teams figured out he aint all that. Unforch we're not a smart team so we'll be stuck with him till his inevitable max drags us down.

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

Not a contract year

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

[nedleeds]

No, surrounding Randle with terrible shooters gets you that.

MPJ and Collins don't fix that. The ceiling of the team is lower with those players, even if we are comparing all 3 players as third options.

Certainly doesn't help. But I'm not comparing 26 year old Collins and MPJ. They're both 3 years younger. Randle gets us nowhere relevant right now and our offense is ****. Trading him resets the clock and has no real impact on winning, because we aren't winning anything anyway with Randle. It may get us the 8-10 tank wins we need to get a young difference maker in this draft.

Collins will cost more than Randle. So it does not reset the clock.

The deal goes to a player 3 years younger. What do you think Collins will get as a RFA?

[NewKnicks]

Can we stop with the Lebron comparisons?? Holy chit I feel like I'm in an alternate universe when I'm reading these comparisons on a lot of our threads. He hasn't won ANYTHING yet. Nothing. Isn't that what matters? So he's the best player on a .500 team. That's it, at the moment. Don't misunderstand me, he's having an incredible year. But it's only one year, and previous to this he's never been close to the level he's playing at right now.

Bro u buggin for no reason. Most ppl are saying if he continues at this level of play. He's showing no signs of slowing down or that this all-star season is an anomaly.

More importantly he's becoming a TEAM leader and a guy other players rally around and look up to. The LeBron comparisons are valid because he's running the offense, getting everyone else involved, leading the team in assists, shooting threes, taking it to the baja, getting to the foul line... All while leading the team and league in minutes played, hitting clutch free throws and clutch shots.

Randle is a DOG, bully bball at its finest.

We're 14-15 in the **** east. That's barely Kemba Walker or Nik Vucevic territory. Some of you are so thirsty for hope it's kind of sad. I guess for folks who started post 2002 or so it's different.

Exactly. I'm not going to fan boy this team because we're close to .500. I have much higher expectations. Randle is playing at an elite, all-star level, but let's see if he can keep it up.

I don't trust our front office just yet. Especially since they just missed on a potential great PG in Hali, when that's the position we needed the most in the draft. IQ will end up being more of a Lou Will type player (in my opinion). Or a Microwave Johnson. This is not a bad thing AT ALL. A guy who can come in and light it up for big points in a short time. Can he be better? Sure. I'm not saying he won't. But my eyes are telling me that's where he'll end up. Maybe a 'better version' of either of them, and that would make him a good to great player in the league, and an extremely valuable piece. He's not a true PG.

[Richard4444]

Certainly doesn't help. But I'm not comparing 26 year old Collins and MPJ. They're both 3 years younger. Randle gets us nowhere relevant right now and our offense is ****. Trading him resets the clock and has no real impact on winning, because we aren't winning anything anyway with Randle. It may get us the 8-10 tank wins we need to get a young difference maker in this draft.

Collins will cost more than Randle. So it does not reset the clock.

The deal goes to a player 3 years younger. What do you think Collins will get as a RFA?

He already rejected a 90/4 offer. Something around 100/4.

[dakomish23]

Go look at the BKN game thread and PG thread. If you ever wanted to see how ridiculously impatient this base is, that's it in a nutshell.

There's also massive impatience to wait for things to materialize through smart decision making.

Downplaying draft position, asset acquisition and youth development has been proven wrong time and again, yet it's always going to come up b/c ppl don't have the patience for the long term view. They want progress now.

For once we have kids pushing this forward, so both sides get something from our current position. Yet neither side is happy

What kids are pushing this forward? RJ's on the verge if hes not already out of the closing line up and iq is a few bad shooting games from falling out of the rotation. Everybody else getting significant burn are vets.

Only thing the kids are pushing is the theragun into their thighs on the **** bench. But I'd ask pushing what forward? We basically have the same trash record as the Bulls. We aren't .500 in a train wreck terrible East. AND we're doing this with NO lost games to COVID. So we have a bad record and have had the best covid luck in the league basically.

You guys are nuts if you don't see that RJB Mitch IQ have been the biggest contributors to this team this season outside of Randle. We're hovering around .500 instead of being putrid and it's in large part to the kids.

Progress. Did you expect them to go from basement to unbeatable in one season?

[NewKnicks]

I was a huge Randle hater. Also thought he got overpaid so badly his first two years, so him getting underpaid this year is honestly just making up for it. But this version of Randle? I don't know what the definition of a cornerstone player is to everyone, but I feel comfortable keeping him.

The main thing for me is that he's upped his defense and his 3, and he's contributing everything else he usually does. The main question I've always had is, can he play with other stars? In previous years, nah, but this version of Randle can do that. Pair him with Lebron, Steph, Harden, Giannis, etc...as long as he keeps up his 3&D play, he can play with them.

That is the key to Randle's future continued success. Keeping the 3&D. Let's hope Thibs is a big reason for it, and under Thibs Randle will just keep getting better and better. If he does, he'll be a scary player in the league.

[JBreezeNY]

Honestly Randle does deserve props for getting it together, he’s seriously having an incredible year and I hope he continues to play well but unfortunately for Randle, we’ve gone through a very long time of maxing out star players that aren’t true number 1 options and because of that I refuse to support him here, it is what it is.

[NewKnicks]

he's that player that a smart team would trade before teams figured out he aint all that. Unforch we're not a smart team so we'll be stuck with him till his inevitable max drags us down.

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

I'm not ready to take it that far, but I get your point. Can a 4 that needs the ball in his hands all the time bring a chip in the current NBA? That's a huge question that I guess we'll eventually find out.

[NewKnicks]

Absolutely not.

That's all I'm saying. Edit: I just noticed that you probably meant Booker, I meant Wade.

Ah yea, I thought u meant Booker haha. Yea I’d put Wade @ #3 sg all-time. Harden & TMac @ 4/5.. tho I’d probably rather have TMac at his peak. After the top 5, the order gets tougher, but those other guys are in there for sure.

T-Mac in his prime was a special, special talent. He was fun to watch.

[NewKnicks]

The man definitely deserves to be an all star this year, I just pray that if he doesn't make the cut, he doesn't get a snubbed tattoo like Eddy Curry did with us. Everything has finally just clicked for him, I don't see how people can't be rooting for Randle at this point, whether you think we should be tanking or not, Randle is playing like a guy you tank and hope to get lucky to get.

Oh man.. don't bring up that fat azz, lazy Eddie Curry.

[GONYK]

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

Not a contract year

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

[GONYK]

he's that player that a smart team would trade before teams figured out he aint all that. Unforch we're not a smart team so we'll be stuck with him till his inevitable max drags us down.

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

I'm not ready to take it that far, but I get your point. Can a 4 that needs the ball in his hands all the time bring a chip in the current NBA? That's a huge question that I guess we'll eventually find out.

I don't think the intention is ever to keep Randle as our #1. I do think he can be a part of the team's vision going forward without being the franchise player.

Just like Melo should have been, TBH.

[JBreezeNY]

Not a contract year

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

More money as in longer years.

His play is motivated by the potential of getting more over an extended period of time which would technically begin next year & in order to obtain that he would need to show out or we decline the option.

[NewKnicks]

If he would play like last season, he would have trouble making more than 10-12M/y in his next contract. And he would have to play for a small market team.

I am still not sure if a big market contender would offer him a 4-year max/near-max contract if he were a UFA...

He's not getting near max contract next season from anyone now either, despite putting up all-star production.

I agree he is not in near max range for most teams (although I think a team like Hornets or Kings can overpay for him).

So, The Knicks picking his 20M TO is a win for him. That's why I think he is in a contract year.

Problem is Julius and his agent are going to push for the max, and the Knicks will probably give it to him. Randle is in a position of power in negotiations if he keeps this up for the full year.