Julius Randle IS a 'cornerstone' player

[JBreezeNY]

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

I'm not ready to take it that far, but I get your point. Can a 4 that needs the ball in his hands all the time bring a chip in the current NBA? That's a huge question that I guess we'll eventually find out.

I don't think the intention is ever to keep Randle as our #1. I do think he can be a part of the team's vision going forward without being the franchise player.

Just like Melo should have been, TBH.

That’s the problem tho, do you trust this organization to move like that? My issue becomes that we will feel obligated to Randle since he “stuck it out” & make him a bigger part of the team especially if we whiff out on any more FA’s.

[GONYK]

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

More money as in longer years.

His play is motivated by the potential of getting more over an extended period of time which would technically begin next year & in order to obtain that he would need to show out or we don’t decline the option.

Like I've said, he is winning relative to getting his option declined.

But he didn't have to outproduce Anthony Davis to get his option picked up.

Now, at $20M next season, he's underpaid relative to production. He now has to put up the same level of production for another season to cash in on this season's effort.

[Richard4444]

He's not getting near max contract next season from anyone now either, despite putting up all-star production.

I agree he is not in near max range for most teams (although I think a team like Hornets or Kings can overpay for him).

So, The Knicks picking his 20M TO is a win for him. That's why I think he is in a contract year.

Problem is Julius and his agent are going to push for the max, and the Knicks will probably give it to him. Randle is in a position of power in negotiations if he keeps this up for the full year.

He will push for the max in 2022. I think we will be capped out by then.

[moocow007]

They're both better than Randle was when he was 22 or 23. That's the point. So if the Hawks or Nuggets have a mandate to win more now, a 26 year old might make more sense for htem.

We also have a mandate to win more now

Yeah, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not saying we'd actually do any of this. This is why we have had a top 3 worst front office for 20 years. Because we prioritize fake winning over player development and patience. We trade for Derrick Rose. We trade for Bargnani. We trade for Carmelo instead of just signing him. We give Amare the extra year and stretch Billups. We don't play and try to develop the young lottery picks that have options we need to decide on. We sign Elfrid Payton and play him 25+ minutes a game.

What exactly is "fake winning over player development"? What magical player development in a vacuum are you thinking is possible? Whose development is being (Please Use More Appropriate Word) by trying to win games? Iggy Brazdeikis? Frank Ntilikina? Kevin Knox? RJ Barrett is developing just fine. So is Quickley?

[GONYK]

I'm not ready to take it that far, but I get your point. Can a 4 that needs the ball in his hands all the time bring a chip in the current NBA? That's a huge question that I guess we'll eventually find out.

I don't think the intention is ever to keep Randle as our #1. I do think he can be a part of the team's vision going forward without being the franchise player.

Just like Melo should have been, TBH.

That’s the problem tho, do you trust this organization to move like that? My issue becomes that we will feel obligated to Randle since he “stuck it out” & make him a bigger part of the team especially if we whiff out on any more FA’s.

I think the organization's feelings about Randle won't prevent them from pursuing more headlining talent.

For example, I don't think we decline a pursuit of Booker, Mitchell, KAT, etc... because we're building around Randle now.

I don't think we're above upgrading from Randle either if the opportunity presents itself.

[JBreezeNY]

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

More money as in longer years.

His play is motivated by the potential of getting more over an extended period of time which would technically begin next year & in order to obtain that he would need to show out or we don’t decline the option.

Like I've said, he is winning relative to getting his option declined.

But he didn't have to outproduce Anthony Davis to get his option picked up.

Now, at $20M next season, he's underpaid relative to production. He now has to put up the same level of production for another season to cash in on this season's effort.

But that’s my point him playing well is motivated for catching in on it next season.

Look, I don’t deny that he will play well again next season, Randle isnt a bum he’s playing great he’s doing the best he can within his abilities.

But he’s just not someone that I see as a player you win with. I just don’t like his style of play, the same way many didn’t like Melo’s style of play but gave props to his talent.

[NewKnicks]

Gonna be Melo all over again...

Randle gonna drag this team only to be tired out & eliminated early in the 1st round.

But at least Randle is showing out in a contract year!

Woo hoo!

I'm not ready to take it that far, but I get your point. Can a 4 that needs the ball in his hands all the time bring a chip in the current NBA? That's a huge question that I guess we'll eventually find out.

I don't think the intention is ever to keep Randle as our #1. I do think he can be a part of the team's vision going forward without being the franchise player.

Just like Melo should have been, TBH.

Then that begs the question.. can Randle be just as effective of a player when he's a 3rd option on a great team? The other two 'stars' would need and want the ball as well, which obviously means a lot less touches for Randle.

It's really going to be interesting to see how this thing plays out.

[JBreezeNY]

I don't think the intention is ever to keep Randle as our #1. I do think he can be a part of the team's vision going forward without being the franchise player.

Just like Melo should have been, TBH.

That’s the problem tho, do you trust this organization to move like that? My issue becomes that we will feel obligated to Randle since he “stuck it out” & make him a bigger part of the team especially if we whiff out on any more FA’s.

I think the organization's feelings about Randle won't prevent them from pursuing more headlining talent.

For example, I don't think we decline a pursuit of Booker, Mitchell, KAT, etc... because we're building around Randle now.

I don't think we're above upgrading from Randle either if the opportunity presents itself.

Hmm ok, fair, Ive become jaded but we shall see.

[moocow007]

Not a contract year

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

Exactly.

The way that the NBA is structured right now where the max salaries are just so much disproportionately larger than the salary cap a team has to operate under that it's all about timing. You don't sign on max or high salary players over time. You do it in one shot by landing big contracts in one offseason while the core guys you do have still do not have crazy big cap holds.

The Knicks opportunity to make this jump in this 'window' is this offseason.

Robinson will still be a small caphold. Randle will still be a (relatively) small caphold (for an All-Star level talent). Barrett is still relatively small for what he can produce. Quickley is a 25th overall pick small. No other big contracts belonging to players that won't be part of the go forward is on the books. You have a coach that the stars know and like (from Team USA). You have a front office filled with respected guys from respected organizations. You haven't heard a peep out of James Dolan.

Randle, Barrett, Robinson, Quickley may not be franchise players but they are very much top notch quality players all with plenty of years on the upswing. If the Knicks can land someone like LaVine (who's salary is also relatively light for his All-Star level abilities) then you've got one heck of a team that a 'franchise' type player would actually find very appealing. And even if it's not a super max franchise type, it's some other impact level player (or two) that can make this team an extremely dangerous team with all of the players being high value, high asset types that then can give you, in subsequent years, the ability to trade for the elite players if nothing pops in this offseason.

Is this what the Knicks front office sees and is planning around? IMHO? Yes.

Derrick Rose was just to add a guy for the bench and the locker room to help this team win. He's not some demon that was going to take IQ's minutes or ball stop or any of that panicked nonsense. He cost the Knicks pretty much nothing nor does adding Rose for DSJr prevent them from making bigger moves before the deadline (which I strongly believe is what they are working on) to better position themselves for the offseason and beyond. Winning doesn't mean not improving for the long term. For the Knicks one actually helps the other for what appears to be what their plan is. Winning not only makes this team more attractive to free agents, it makes the players they have more valuable in terms of assets.

[DaGawd]

More money as in longer years.

His play is motivated by the potential of getting more over an extended period of time which would technically begin next year & in order to obtain that he would need to show out or we don’t decline the option.

Like I've said, he is winning relative to getting his option declined.

But he didn't have to outproduce Anthony Davis to get his option picked up.

Now, at $20M next season, he's underpaid relative to production. He now has to put up the same level of production for another season to cash in on this season's effort.

But that’s my point him playing well is motivated for catching in on it next season.

Look, I don’t deny that he will play well again next season, Randle isnt a bum he’s playing great he’s doing the best he can within his abilities.

But he’s just not someone that I see as a player you win with. I just don’t like his style of play, the same way many didn’t like Melo’s style of play but gave props to his talent.

Just curious what about his play style is it that you exactly don’t like? I could understand Melo since he holds the ball and doesn’t make anyone better.. but in Randle’s case he’s actually a willing passer and averaging a lil over 5assist per game at the power forward position is great. He’s also scoring at pretty good efficiency.. there’s not a lot I see to complain about

[Oscirus]

What kids are pushing this forward? RJ's on the verge if hes not already out of the closing line up and iq is a few bad shooting games from falling out of the rotation. Everybody else getting significant burn are vets.

Only thing the kids are pushing is the theragun into their thighs on the **** bench. But I'd ask pushing what forward? We basically have the same trash record as the Bulls. We aren't .500 in a train wreck terrible East. AND we're doing this with NO lost games to COVID. So we have a bad record and have had the best covid luck in the league basically.

You guys are nuts if you don't see that RJB Mitch IQ have been the biggest contributors to this team this season outside of Randle. We're hovering around .500 instead of being putrid and it's in large part to the kids.

Progress. Did you expect them to go from basement to unbeatable in one season?

Rj went from at one point averaging the most minutes in the league to not even finishing games anymore. Iqs minutes have been wildly inconsistent and teams are starting to figure him out. Mitch has been the same but with less offense. They've all legit regressed over the course of a half-season.

In other words, the development of our youngsters has been a huge fail partially due to this win at all costs narrative that thibs employs. Hell, thibs can't even be asked to develop the rookie that he wanted.

[NewKnicks]

I agree he is not in near max range for most teams (although I think a team like Hornets or Kings can overpay for him).

So, The Knicks picking his 20M TO is a win for him. That's why I think he is in a contract year.

Problem is Julius and his agent are going to push for the max, and the Knicks will probably give it to him. Randle is in a position of power in negotiations if he keeps this up for the full year.

He will push for the max in 2022. I think we will be capped out by then.

And we'll give it to him, whether he is truly a max player in the league or not. And that will affect our decisions for many years to come. We're in a scary situation as a franchise. Either Randle's the real deal and he deserves the max, or we sign him to the max and f*ck up our franchise for another 5 years.

Consider the scenario that we max out Randle, and then he reverts to Julius of last year. Now we're screwed as a franchise all over again. I really hope our front office is up to the task this time in terms of making the right decisions.

Personally, I don't want a max Randle. This year is the anomaly in Juluis' career so far. That doesn't mean he won't stay at his current level of play, but it definitely should be a huge consideration that he might revert back to the mean.

[DaGawd]

Only thing the kids are pushing is the theragun into their thighs on the **** bench. But I'd ask pushing what forward? We basically have the same trash record as the Bulls. We aren't .500 in a train wreck terrible East. AND we're doing this with NO lost games to COVID. So we have a bad record and have had the best covid luck in the league basically.

You guys are nuts if you don't see that RJB Mitch IQ have been the biggest contributors to this team this season outside of Randle. We're hovering around .500 instead of being putrid and it's in large part to the kids.

Progress. Did you expect them to go from basement to unbeatable in one season?

Rj went from at one point averaging the most minutes in the league to not even finishing games anymore. Iqs minutes have been wildly inconsistent and teams are starting to figure him out. Mitch has been the same but with less offense. They've all legit regressed over the course of a half-season.

In other words, the development of our youngsters has been a huge fail partially due to this win at all costs narrative that thibs employs. Hell, thibs can't even be asked to develop the rookie that he wanted.

I’d say Thibs is developing them just fine and within the confines of winning basketball games. Development doesn’t mean letting a dude who clearly isn’t getting the job done continuously jack up shots to take the team out of the game or letting a dude whose defense is suffering stay out there and continue to be torched. As we’ve seen with Thibs he’ll often give extended time to the guys who establish themselves over the course of a game. If you have it going that night or have an exploitable matchup advantage your number will be called

[moocow007]

Problem is Julius and his agent are going to push for the max, and the Knicks will probably give it to him. Randle is in a position of power in negotiations if he keeps this up for the full year.

He will push for the max in 2022. I think we will be capped out by then.

And we'll give it to him, whether he is truly a max player in the league or not. And that will affect our decisions for many years to come. We're in a scary situation as a franchise. Either Randle's the real deal and he deserves the max, or we sign him to the max and f*ck up our franchise for another 5 years.

Consider the scenario that we max out Randle, and then he reverts to Julius of last year. Now we're screwed as a franchise all over again. I really hope our front office is up to the task this time in terms of making the right decisions.

Personally, I don't want a max Randle. This year is the anomaly in Juluis' career so far. That doesn't mean he won't stay at his current level of play, but it definitely should be a huge consideration that he might revert back to the mean.

He's under contract for next season so there's no reason to doom and gloom about maxing him out because this season is a 'mirage'. And IF the Knicks can manage to get the top talents on the team by the time that matters then it really doesn't matter cause this team can afford $500 million worth of salaries each year if the NBA would allow it. The key is not about how much each player may or may not make. It's about how you build a team so that decisions about how much you may have to pay someone isn't as big a deal. The biggest problem the Knicks franchises in the past has had is building a team around the 'star' players NOT it's star players (there's only so many Lebron James level players to go around). What was it then? Because the star players were paid too much? No. Those players got what any other player of their level got. Their problem was not being able to manage and use the salary cap to build a team that successful franchises do.

[god shammgod]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

[DaGawd]

Problem is Julius and his agent are going to push for the max, and the Knicks will probably give it to him. Randle is in a position of power in negotiations if he keeps this up for the full year.

He will push for the max in 2022. I think we will be capped out by then.

And we'll give it to him, whether he is truly a max player in the league or not. And that will affect our decisions for many years to come. We're in a scary situation as a franchise. Either Randle's the real deal and he deserves the max, or we sign him to the max and f*ck up our franchise for another 5 years.

Consider the scenario that we max out Randle, and then he reverts to Julius of last year. Now we're screwed as a franchise all over again. I really hope our front office is up to the task this time in terms of making the right decisions.

Personally, I don't want a max Randle. This year is the anomaly in Juluis' career so far. That doesn't mean he won't stay at his current level of play, but it definitely should be a huge consideration that he might revert back to the mean.

He’s a late bloomer.. it happens

[NewKnicks]

Just seen this...option year/showing out for more money, come on bruh.

Except he's showing out and not getting more money.

That max he's getting next season is the same money.

Exactly.

The way that the NBA is structured right now where the max salaries are just so much disproportionately larger than the salary cap a team has to operate under that it's all about timing. You don't sign on max or high salary players over time. You do it in one shot by landing big contracts in one offseason while the core guys you do have still do not have crazy big cap holds.

The Knicks opportunity to make this jump in this 'window' is this offseason.

Robinson will still be a small caphold. Randle will still be a (relatively) small caphold (for an All-Star level talent). Barrett is still relatively small for what he can produce. Quickley is a 25th overall pick small. No other big contracts belonging to players that won't be part of the go forward is on the books. You have a coach that the stars know and like (from Team USA). You have a front office filled with respected guys from respected organizations. You haven't heard a peep out of James Dolan.

Randle, Barrett, Robinson, Quickley may not be franchise players but they are very much top notch quality players all with plenty of years on the upswing. If the Knicks can land someone like LaVine (who's salary is also relatively light for his All-Star level abilities) then you've got one heck of a team that a 'franchise' type player would actually find very appealing. And even if it's not a super max franchise type, it's some other impact level player (or two) that can make this team an extremely dangerous team with all of the players being high value, high asset types that then can give you, in subsequent years, the ability to trade for the elite players if nothing pops in this offseason.

Is this what the Knicks front office sees and is planning around? IMHO? Yes.

Derrick Rose was just to add a guy for the bench and the locker room to help this team win. He's not some demon that was going to take IQ's minutes or ball stop or any of that panicked nonsense. He cost the Knicks pretty much nothing nor does adding Rose for DSJr prevent them from making bigger moves before the deadline (which I strongly believe is what they are working on) to better position themselves for the offseason and beyond. Winning doesn't mean not improving for the long term. For the Knicks one actually helps the other for what appears to be what their plan is. Winning not only makes this team more attractive to free agents, it makes the players they have more valuable in terms of assets.

The issue with trading for Lavine is that the Bulls will be asking (and getting) probably 2 of IQ/RJ/Mitch. Lavine's price is going to much higher than people think. Although I don't think the Bulls want to trade him anyway (completely different topic).

Bulls will ask for:

2-3 #1's, plus one or two of RJ/IQ/Mitch. A good portion of the teams in the league will pursue him as well if he's truly available. That will continue to drive the price up.

Not saying you said this, but I don't want to mortgage the future again by giving up a huge chunk of our assets. We're not ready as a franchise to make this type of move.

[moocow007]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Exactly. There's a term for it. It's called chasing Unicorns and Rainbows.

In NBA terms it's the "let's just keeping trying in the lottery and draft the next Lebron James" plan. So not only do you have to actually luck out and get the no.1 overall pick (we've seen how likely that is) BUT you also have to hit the no.1 in the perfect draft where there is actually a Lebron James type player (a GOAT level talent, not just a generational talent or even a once a decade talent probably doesn't grow on trees) that can instantly transform your team to something special and then skyrocket you to success.

[nedleeds]

Collins will cost more than Randle. So it does not reset the clock.

The deal goes to a player 3 years younger. What do you think Collins will get as a RFA?

He already rejected a 90/4 offer. Something around 100/4.

Yeah he rejected it. But again he's an RFA, another team has to believe 100/4. Or 90/4 with a trade kicker or some weird poison pill. What team has space and is making that RFA offer? I looked briefly. They need to have space, and not have a young PF on the books.

San Antonio? (LA and Demar roll off)

[NewKnicks]

He will push for the max in 2022. I think we will be capped out by then.

And we'll give it to him, whether he is truly a max player in the league or not. And that will affect our decisions for many years to come. We're in a scary situation as a franchise. Either Randle's the real deal and he deserves the max, or we sign him to the max and f*ck up our franchise for another 5 years.

Consider the scenario that we max out Randle, and then he reverts to Julius of last year. Now we're screwed as a franchise all over again. I really hope our front office is up to the task this time in terms of making the right decisions.

Personally, I don't want a max Randle. This year is the anomaly in Juluis' career so far. That doesn't mean he won't stay at his current level of play, but it definitely should be a huge consideration that he might revert back to the mean.

He's under contract for next season so there's no reason to doom and gloom about maxing him out because this season is a 'mirage'. And IF the Knicks can manage to get the top talents on the team by the time that matters then it really doesn't matter cause this team can afford $500 million worth of salaries each year if the NBA would allow it. The key is not about how much each player may or may not make. It's about how you build a team so that decisions about how much you may have to pay someone isn't as big a deal. The biggest problem the Knicks franchises in the past has had is building a team around the 'star' players NOT it's star players (there's only so many Lebron James level players to go around). What was it then? Because the star players were paid too much? No. Those players got what any other player of their level got. Their problem was not being able to manage and use the salary cap to build a team that successful franchises do.

Can't argue with you, but it's still going to be a monstrous decision for the franchise. Also, I would not be surprised if Randle's agent is already talking to the Knicks about a max deal. Why wouldn't they?

I know we have another full year, but we're getting close to that scary part of player evaluation affecting the franchise for years to come. I guess that's a good thing, since we're actually in this spot.

I can only hope we finally have a rock solid front office and they make the right call, one way or another.