Lets talk Zach Lavine

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Thad Young was starter for majority of his career. Porter his whole career until this year. Sato was starter in his last season with Wizards. Markkanen is starter on most teams. Why always making excuses for Lavine by bashing others. Maybe he is not good enough to be leader?

Well, you did it. You've killed your own argument. Porter has played 30 games in the last two seasons combined so far. Markannen is perhaps the worst rebounding and shot-blocking 7-footer in the NBA right now and has been injured and wildly inconsistent over the past few years. Satoransky is a solid role player, but was only a starter due to the injury of John Wall and was also a starter on a 32 win team. He's also never been a double-figure scorer. Thad's solid, but he's a role player.

Citing these players only exemplifies how poor of a job the Bulls have done with giving him a competent supporting cast.

And you are trashing everybody else except Lavine. It is never on him. Markkanen is one of the best shooting 7-footers today. Imagine him with competent guard who will throw him damn ball in good position not guards that are jacking contested threes from half court in clutch. Young as third best player played 7 games in playoffs against Lebron finals team. How did Oladipo was successfull with Thad as his second best teammate. I agree Bulls could have done better job by surrounding Lavine with better defenders and playmakers to cover his defficiencies. But what would you say if those trash players in your opinion goes somewhere else, example Lauri to Dallas,Spurs and they became playoffs contributers. Would that be on Lavine not be able to play good team basketball?

[HomoSapien]

He is elite scorer.

Yes, and that is extremely rare and hard to acquire. The last player we had who could score like this was Michael Jordan.

Is he good defender

Not good, but improving.

playmaker, rebounder,passer, guy who makes everybody else better

He's averaging 5.2 rebounds, 5.2 apg, and 1.1 spg. The notion that he's a one-dimensional player is a lazy and tired analysis. He's become an all-around player who is more than just a scorer.

, who is impacting on wins doing dirtty work.

We're one win away from being tied for the 7th seed despite having almost everyone of note dealing with injuries throughout the season, so yes, I would say he's impacting wins.

Are we ok being fringe playoff team with Lavine as max player leading the band. I am sorry i have my bar set higher than that.

Quite frankly, you don't. You've hitched your horse on a player who impacts winning far less, who actually doesn't do the dirty work, and is actually worthless when he's not scoring. As for being a fringe playoff team, that's how you build. You don't becoming a contender over night, you take the steps to get there. The first step is making the playoffs.

[Wingy]

Great thread and I come in peace from the Knicks board.

Here's my question.. why would the Bulls even consider trading a 25 year old who is finally establishing himself as a top-tier NBA player? I don't even understand why he would be available at all.

All the Bulls would be doing is trying to find 'the next Lavine' in the draft if you traded for draft picks instead of player for player swap. And if they do go for a player for player swap, who could the Bulls get that is better than Lavine?

I see this trading Lavine idea all over RealGM on other boards, not just yours and I don't get it. He's 25 and still can get a lot better.

Is this just chatter for rumors sake? Or do you guys think your front office is actually fielding offers?

We'd love to have him on the Knicks, BTW.

Thanks fellas. If you tell me to STFU and GTFO, I understand.

A lot of people on here hated the Butler trade that brought LaVine over and they have never accepted him. So no matter how well he plays and they are going to dig in the original stance. I don’t think this poll is representative of the actual board sentiment anymore though. The have been like 70 keep him and maybe 15 trade him votes since he really started playing well this season. As far as reality I don’t think the Bulls are looking to trade him. Others teams are just interested and we are not good so it makes for speculation.

I hated that trade, but what I really hated more was blowing the opportunity to pair Butler and Lavine.

Dougy McBuckets. God awful.

The Butler/Lavine offseason workouts would’ve been the stuff of legend. I don’t know why, but this is by far my biggest post dynasty “what if?” that haunts my fandom. Something like Rose...he was so brittle...that was happening no matter what. The Dougy pick was just a dumb decision that could’ve been avoided.

Fan of both guys I suppose, so guess that’s why it always resurfaces for me. I think having the two best players, both with elite-level work ethics really could’ve changed Bulls culture, and propelled each players’ career fwd faster.

[HomoSapien]

And you are trashing everybody else except Lavine. It is never on him.

How am I trashing anyone? What did I say that was incorrect?

Markkanen is one of the best shooting 7-footers today.

And he's missed 50% of the season.

Imagine him with competent guard who will throw him damn ball in good position not guards that are jacking contested threes from half court in clutch.

Zach LaVine's not the point guard, so I don't think the blame is on him. Better yet, I'd rather imagine LaVine with a big man who could stay healthy and help the team win.

Young as third best player played 7 games in playoffs against Lebron finals team. How did Oladipo was successfull with Thad as his second best teammate.

That Pacers team was pretty damn deep and I think it's quite generous to call him their third or second best player? That was a team that had success by committee, and anyone who watched that team would tell you that. Beyond that, can you stop romanticizing what Thad Young is and what he isn't? He's a very good role player. Besides, they lost in the first-round, and right now we're starting to look like a playoff team.

But what would you say if those trash players in your opinion goes somewhere else, example Lauri to Dallas,Spurs and they became playoffs contributers. Would that be on Lavine not be able to play good team basketball?

Again, I didn't say they were trash. We can't have a conversation if you can't stop yourself from being intellectually dishonest.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

He is elite scorer.

Yes, and that is extremely rare and hard to acquire. The last player we had who could score like this was Michael Jordan.

Is he good defender

Not good, but improving.

playmaker, rebounder,passer, guy who makes everybody else better

He's averaging 5.2 rebounds, 5.2 apg, and 1.1 spg. The notion that he's a one-dimensional player is a lazy and tired analysis. He's become an all-around player who is more than just a scorer.

, who is impacting on wins doing dirtty work.

We're one win away from being tied for the 7th seed despite having almost everyone of note dealing with injuries throughout the season, so yes, I would say he's impacting wins.

Are we ok being fringe playoff team with Lavine as max player leading the band. I am sorry i have my bar set higher than that.

Quite frankly, you don't. You've hitched your horse on a player who impacts winning far less, who actually doesn't do the dirty work, and is actually worthless when he's not scoring.

if you are talking about Lauri, i never suggested he is max player of future all nba player. I could imagine him being third best player on good playoff team with 15-20 salary. And i am ok with Zach being 20-25 mil player and second best player on Bulls. But if you locked Lavine on 190/5 contract, you dont have financial flexbility to sign that superstar with all rookie contracts from number 7 picks expiring. Or if you clear cap space who is that number one player to sign with Bulls. You would end up with Lavine as 40 mil player and mid frp as role players most likley. I can see Evan Mobley being new Garnett, Emoni Bates being Durant, Lauri being their sidekick on solid longterm contract, same as PWill. But with Zach we would almost always miss on that superstar prospects and giving our history i dont see no one coming to play with Lavine as max player, like George and Kawhi or Harden/Irving have done together.

[DuckIII]

Lol at trading Zach Lavine.

Old bias dies hard.

I don’t understand the last three pages of this thread. Basically it reads like, without specifically saying it, that some are treating the current season like an outlier and forming their opinion to the complete exclusion of this entire season.

Which in theory wouldn’t be a completely invalid perspective. But I don’t see how one could see this evolution and write it off. It’s not like he’s just had some crazy hot streak or is stat padding in garbage time.

He’s show growth. That’s a significant difference. His whole approach to the game has matured and improved. It’s been remarkable. And it’s still happening on an ongoing basis.

Moreover, what we are seeing is not bizarrely disconnected from a perceived talent ceiling. He actually is this talented. And we’ve known that all along. It was always a question of when he’d put it together better mentally.

He’s 25 and he’s playing like one of the top players in the NBA. And unlike the unfortunate Butler situation, we actually have some assets to move around to build something. Trading Lavine for a reboot is basically unthinkable.

[DJhitek]

Zach has improved immensely as a scorer and while I think his defensive liabilities are pretty significant I’d be ok with signing him to the max.

[Stratmaster]

Great thread and I come in peace from the Knicks board.

Here's my question.. why would the Bulls even consider trading a 25 year old who is finally establishing himself as a top-tier NBA player? I don't even understand why he would be available at all.

All the Bulls would be doing is trying to find 'the next Lavine' in the draft if you traded for draft picks instead of player for player swap. And if they do go for a player for player swap, who could the Bulls get that is better than Lavine?

I see this trading Lavine idea all over RealGM on other boards, not just yours and I don't get it. He's 25 and still can get a lot better.

Is this just chatter for rumors sake? Or do you guys think your front office is actually fielding offers?

We'd love to have him on the Knicks, BTW.

Thanks fellas. If you tell me to STFU and GTFO, I understand.

Amen. A lot of teams are looking at Zach for a reason, and it's the same reason the Bulls won't trade him.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[weneeda2guard]

He is elite scorer.

Yes, and that is extremely rare and hard to acquire. The last player we had who could score like this was Michael Jordan.

Is he good defender

Not good, but improving.

playmaker, rebounder,passer, guy who makes everybody else better

He's averaging 5.2 rebounds, 5.2 apg, and 1.1 spg. The notion that he's a one-dimensional player is a lazy and tired analysis. He's become an all-around player who is more than just a scorer.

, who is impacting on wins doing dirtty work.

We're one win away from being tied for the 7th seed despite having almost everyone of note dealing with injuries throughout the season, so yes, I would say he's impacting wins.

Are we ok being fringe playoff team with Lavine as max player leading the band. I am sorry i have my bar set higher than that.

Quite frankly, you don't. You've hitched your horse on a player who impacts winning far less, who actually doesn't do the dirty work, and is actually worthless when he's not scoring.

if you are talking about Lauri, i never suggested he is max player of future all nba player. I could imagine him being third best player on good playoff team with 15-20 salary. And i am ok with Zach being 20-25 mil player and second best player on Bulls. But if you locked Lavine on 190/5 contract, you dont have financial flexbility to sign that superstar with all rookie contracts from number 7 picks expiring. Or if you clear cap space who is that number one player to sign with Bulls. You would end up with Lavine as 40 mil player and mid frp as role players most likley. I can see Evan Mobley being new Garnett, Emoni Bates being Durant, Lauri being their sidekick on solid longterm contract, same as PWill. But with Zach we would almost always miss on that superstar prospects and giving our history i dont see no one coming to play with Lavine as max player, like George and Kawhi or Harden/Irving have done together.

Lavine will get what the market dictates. Teams will not be lined up to hand him 40 mill a year, 30 is more realistic

But that doesn't have to be handled until next off season. We still have a crap load of cap space (once we get rid of your boy) to really add some good pieces to this roster then really see what the ceiling of lavine is. Lavine has endures horrible coaching many roster changes and a organization that had a front office turnover. This is legit the 1st season he has had stability quality coaching and goals set. And he has put up all star numbers as a result and that's even with holes in the roster and the typical injury prone guys , like the one you want us to bet our future on, being out the line up.

Then after we properly fill the roster out with am extension to lavine going into the season or next off season where we still would have the advantage of being able to offer him more than other teams. The teams competing don't have much money for lavine and lavine is not leaving us to go join Indiana. Lol

[Jcool0]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

[TheStig]

You aren’t even trying anymore. You lost the debate. He is about to be an all-star. Putting all the blame on him for being on crappy teams is comical. Most of basketball world has realized this. The rest of you will have to catch up.

Why were these crappy teams? They were predicted to be playoff teams. The fizzled out. He's not on Hinkie 76ers.

Let’s see two of the young core pieces in Markkanen and Carter are injured for large portions of every season and have been disappointments. Dunn the 3rd piece in trade was injury prone, a bust and stays hurt to this day. In his place Coby White might be worst starting PG in NBA. Oh and the highest paid guy on the team barely plays and has the body ailments and athleticism of an athlete 10 years older. Hutchinson, bust. Our second and third best players right now are 33 and 34 years non-starting journeymen. Also he had two of worst coaches possible in Hoiberg and Boylen. Incompetent hated management. Please tell how all of this mess can be laid at the feet of how good LaVine is? I would love to know how it can spun into a full indictment on LaVine. That is not to say he did everything right or played the right way. He was a selfish that thought he could or should just carry the team. Didn’t pass, gave low effort on defense But he has changed this year and what is around him is still subpar. So how is this spinned into solely a Zach LaVine problem and not a Chicago Bulls problem? We literally have 3 non-starter level players in our starting lineup. It was 4 before Carter came back. That is your answer. It’s not his fault you have completely unrealistic expectations of a Jordan, Durant or whoever the **** else leading us to glory. You basically tossed me a softball to be splattered. Done and dusted!

I certainly don't blame Lavine. I think he's a fine player. But a true superstar would have carried them into the playoffs in the East. I was just talking about it in another thread but a half broken down Griffin carried the Pistons to the playoffs.

Last year the Magic made the playoffs with 33 wins. The Wizards made the play in with 25 wins. A true superstar at the very least could have done that. Lavine is very good. Not great.

Let me ask this question. Where does Lavine rank in the NBA to you? Is he top 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50? I think he's somewhere around 40ish. Jimmy when he was traded was around 10-12. Jimmy proved it, he carried teams into the playoffs. That's why I was deadset against a Jimmy deal but would welcome a Lavine trade if it got a really good return (not a Harden, PG or AD return).

I'm not in a rush to move Lavine. I like him. I think he's good. If we were a team that was progressing, I'd lean toward giving him the max. But Lavine is not the solution to this problem. We can be a sub 30 win team with or without Lavine.

[TheStig]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

[Jcool0]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Lavine was just 3rd in all-star voting among players. You don't think they would want to play with him? And i was more talking about money wise not would a player want to sign in chicago.

[TheStig]

Yes, and that is extremely rare and hard to acquire. The last player we had who could score like this was Michael Jordan.



Not good, but improving.




He's averaging 5.2 rebounds, 5.2 apg, and 1.1 spg. The notion that he's a one-dimensional player is a lazy and tired analysis. He's become an all-around player who is more than just a scorer.



We're one win away from being tied for the 7th seed despite having almost everyone of note dealing with injuries throughout the season, so yes, I would say he's impacting wins.




Quite frankly, you don't. You've hitched your horse on a player who impacts winning far less, who actually doesn't do the dirty work, and is actually worthless when he's not scoring.

if you are talking about Lauri, i never suggested he is max player of future all nba player. I could imagine him being third best player on good playoff team with 15-20 salary. And i am ok with Zach being 20-25 mil player and second best player on Bulls. But if you locked Lavine on 190/5 contract, you dont have financial flexbility to sign that superstar with all rookie contracts from number 7 picks expiring. Or if you clear cap space who is that number one player to sign with Bulls. You would end up with Lavine as 40 mil player and mid frp as role players most likley. I can see Evan Mobley being new Garnett, Emoni Bates being Durant, Lauri being their sidekick on solid longterm contract, same as PWill. But with Zach we would almost always miss on that superstar prospects and giving our history i dont see no one coming to play with Lavine as max player, like George and Kawhi or Harden/Irving have done together.

Lavine will get what the market dictates. Teams will not be lined up to hand him 40 mill a year, 30 is more realistic

But that doesn't have to be handled until next off season. We still have a crap load of cap space (once we get rid of your boy) to really add some good pieces to this roster then really see what the ceiling of lavine is. Lavine has endures horrible coaching many roster changes and a organization that had a front office turnover. This is legit the 1st season he has had stability quality coaching and goals set. And he has put up all star numbers as a result and that's even with holes in the roster and the typical injury prone guys , like the one you want us to bet our future on, being out the line up.

Then after we properly fill the roster out with am extension to lavine going into the season or next off season where we still would have the advantage of being able to offer him more than other teams. The teams competing don't have much money for lavine and lavine is not leaving us to go join Indiana. Lol

Without a doubt in my mind, Lavine will get a max deal. FA's get overpaid and he is a good young player. He will get at least 2-3 max offers.

[DuckIII]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

[Drgaliza2]

You gus are crazy! Even thinking on trading zach lavine.. he isnt even at hes peak yet. Imo hes better than harden. Zach scores at will in paint and threes.. hes like 43% in threes.. and average 28 ppg without getting to the three (freethrow) point line as much as harden.. harden gets 3 points coz of and ones left and right. if he gets the foul calls just like harden he gets 30ppg easily or even more! hes learning to be a great defender too.. this guy is legit top 5 player soon mark my words. Or even mvp top player of the league..

[TheStig]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

You cannot say that with certainty. This team has no real talent around him and no real path to get any with no stars coming up in FA and limited trade assets. Trading Zach allows you to maximize your pick and get a really good pick in a really good draft, aquire another pick and some additional assets in young players or future picks.

If Zach were a top 10 player, I'd agree with you. But he's just not the guy who's going to carry you to the playoffs.

[Jcool0]

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

You cannot say that with certainty. This team has no real talent around him and no real path to get any with no stars coming up in FA and limited trade assets. Trading Zach allows you to maximize your pick and get a really good pick in a really good draft, aquire another pick and some additional assets in young players or future picks.

If Zach were a top 10 player, I'd agree with you. But he's just not the guy who's going to carry you to the playoffs.

Despite him currently carrying the Bulls into playoff contention... He is not the guy going to carry you into the playoffs? interesting.

[Jcool0]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Yes. The guy averaging 28/5/5 is not a superstar and no one will want to play with him....

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

You've said 'sub 30 win team' twice now. The Bulls are currently half a game out of the playoffs and if they keep going at their current pace they're more likely to finish a little under 40 as opposed to sub 30.