Lets talk Zach Lavine

Jcool0 · Post #961 » by **Jcool0** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:03 pm

CobyWhite0 · Post #962 » by **CobyWhite0** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:12 pm

DuckIII wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Why do some think if we sign Lavine to a max contract the Bulls wouldn't be able to get another max guy? Why is it somehow every other team with 2-3 superstars can make it work but the Bulls wouldn't?

What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

I guess I don't understand this new math - I always thought that if you want 2 superstars, having 1 is better than having 0? I had always thought one was closer to two than zero is, but I'm always willing to adapt I guess.

The entire premise that having Lavine at the max will somehow stop us from signing another max player is so laughable, it's barely worth addressing. But maybe it again comes down to math - if Lavine is making 30% of the salary cap, I thought that would leave 70% of the cap available?

As I type this, when Zach is a FA next summer, the Bulls only contracts will be Coby and PWill at a combined $15.2 million, plus WCJ will be a RFA. It couldn't be a better cap situation to try and add another max player with Zach - and the only way we can screw ourselves out of having cap space after that is if we give out bad contracts.

So even if we can't pair a max player with Zach next summer, we can do it in 2023 or 2024. Though by then, we may well be looking for a 3rd star to add with Zach and PWill :dontknow:

Drgaliza2 · Post #963 » by **Drgaliza2** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:15 pm

Hi. Welcome. Keep insults out of your posts. ~Ashy

TheStig · Post #964 » by **TheStig** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:15 pm

Drgaliza2 wrote:People are dumb mindlessly saying zach cant carry them to playoffs lmao.. talk to butler and beal.. they have a better roster btw.. or even luka doncic lmao.. atleast luka is allstar starter even tho hes not making the playoffs

Don't call people dumb. It's not appropriate. Do the math. Zach's played 6 full seasons and never won 30 games. This is not hard. Butler carried his team to the finals last year and playoffs the last few years. Beal has been to the playoffs and at least got his equally bad or worse team to the play in. Luka got his team to the playoffs last year in his 2nd year and nearly averaged a triple double.

There just isn't the super star player that hasn't won 30 games in his first 6 years. Zach's a really good player but he's not that guy. You can like Zach and still want to cash in when his value is the highest and the rest of the team is trash. I'd rather bottom out and get additional picks and assets and make sure we pick top 5 then desperately cling to hitting our ceiling of getting to the first round and getting swept if all the stars align. This team needs more high end talent and they just won't get it with Zach keeping them in #7 pick territory. Not to mention he could just get sick of this or find a better place and leave after next year.

Jcool0 · Post #965 » by **Jcool0** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:48 pm

TheStig wrote:Don't call people dumb. It's not appropriate. Do the math. Zach's played 6 full seasons and never won 30 games. This is not hard. Butler carried his team to the finals last year and playoffs the last few years. Beal has been to the playoffs and at least got his equally bad or worse team to the play in. Luka got his team to the playoffs last year in his 2nd year and nearly averaged a triple double.

1. Butler did not carry his team to the finals. Bam averaged 17.8 ppg, 10.3 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Dragic averaged 19.1 ppg, 4 rebounds and 4 assists & Hero was at 16 ppg, 3.7 assists and 5.1 rebounds. They weren't the 2010 Bulls starting Keith Bogans at SG.

2. Beal has never carried Washington the the playoffs. He won 25 games last year & 32 games the year before. The last time he was in the playoffs he had John Wall and a healthy OPJ.

Kukoc-Lauri · Post #966 » by **Kukoc-Lauri** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:01 pm

Drgaliza2 wrote:Hi. Welcome. Keep insults out of your posts. ~Ashy

Luka is averaging 30 ppg triple double season as 21 yo and made playoffs last year. Notion that Zach is on Rose,Luka,Butler level is lazy and dumb. Butler made finals, Rose was youngest mvp ever and leader of team with 60 win and in ecf, Luka is on historic start of his career. Zach improved a lot , but he is still not complete player and question is Lavine worth max and being payed as superstar. Almost every player who is guarded by Lavine score season or career high. Reinsdorf declined paying Butler same amount of money at 27, Lavine would ask next year. Lavine is ideally third option on contender in general and second offensive wheapon. On playoff team he is second option and first offensive wheapon sometimes. So if you are commiting that kind of money on Lavine, you need to have plan in place to trade or sign for better player than Lavine to be leader. Zach's time line is not the same as PWill and three number 7 picks, contractual wise. By the time PWill as potential franchise player hit his prime Zach will be on the end of his prime. You have extremly top heavy draft in 21. Is building around Zach more important than having top 5 pick in this class and to have possibly great rookie on cheap 4 year deal. It is hard for me to imagine Zach leading Bulls to contention, like extremley unlikley.

Post #967 » by **DuckIII** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:03 pm

TheStig wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
TheStig wrote:What max FA outside of Bron has said I want to go ti a sub 30 win team? They go to good teams and bring another superstar. The Bulls and Lavine are not at that point.

Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

You cannot say that with certainty. This team has no real talent around him and no real path to get any with no stars coming up in FA and limited trade assets. Trading Zach allows you to maximize your pick and get a really good pick in a really good draft, aquire another pick and some additional assets in young players or future picks.

If Zach were a top 10 player, I'd agree with you. But he's just not the guy who's going to carry you to the playoffs.

I understand the concept of blowing up a team for assets. I spent two years advocating we do it with Butler. But the Bulls with Butler had zero young prospects of any potential value and was winning too many games to pick below mid-first round. And he was about to be super-maxed at age 29.

This situation is nothing like that. The Bulls have multiple young talents worth keeping or who still retain trade value, impending cap relief, and all of their picks to include in trade (unlike more than half the NBA which has already committed future picks). And with our injury situation and the likelihood of trade deadline deals, is likely still going to have a lottery pick this year. Plus Lavine is only 25 and still very clearly improving on top having an already elite season.

Trading Lavine only makes sense if you believe this year is total fools gold and he’s going to significantly revert again. And if you believe that, fine. But it’s not really supported by how the improvement is happening.

pipfan · Post #968 » by **pipfan** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:11 pm

I pushed for trading Lavine for A WHILE, but now I see I was wrong. I guess I didn't think he had this level of play in him. Now, we have to be patient, and hope Lauri, Carter and Williams become something (possibly White too). This year's FA might be an opportunity to buy low, and we just hold on to a .500 club and plan on internal improvements.

The only way we deal Lavine now is if we get some crazy offer

BullChit · Post #969 » by **BullChit** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:16 pm

If Zach does carry us to the playoffs this year will that prove anything or will a new excuse arise.

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Indomitable · Post #970 » by **Indomitable** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:35 pm

BullChit wrote:If Zach does carry us to the playoffs this year will that prove anything or will a new excuse arise.

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Jimmy was a passenger early in career. Beal wasnot the lead.

Beal has not made a play off run since Wall has been injured.
Jimmy has for,the most part played in veteran organizations.

Luka was surrounded by vets and had a good coach.

Zach, Wendell, Pat, will be fine. This team was a mess and Zach played without understanding.

Zach is a truly gifted scorer and has grinded hard to improve. I am cheering for him to succeed. He had some bad luck and management.

Look how bad Thad looked last season. Coaching does matter. A team full of young players struggles to win.

Stratmaster · Post #971 » by **Stratmaster** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:19 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
TheStig wrote:Don't call people dumb. It's not appropriate. Do the math. Zach's played 6 full seasons and never won 30 games. This is not hard. Butler carried his team to the finals last year and playoffs the last few years. Beal has been to the playoffs and at least got his equally bad or worse team to the play in. Luka got his team to the playoffs last year in his 2nd year and nearly averaged a triple double.

1. Butler did not carry his team to the finals. Bam averaged 17.8 ppg, 10.3 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Dragic averaged 19.1 ppg, 4 rebounds and 4 assists & Hero was at 16 ppg, 3.7 assists and 5.1 rebounds. They weren't the 2010 Bulls starting Keith Bogans at SG.

2. Beal has never carried Washington the the playoffs. He won 25 games last year & 32 games the year before. The last time he was in the playoffs he had John Wall and a healthy OPJ.

And... Zach was hurt 2 of those seasons so, no, he hasn't played 6 full seasons. And... those 2 seasons were right smack in the middle of the other 4...And the Bulls have been a playoff quality team since game 3 of this season and Zach is the reason why.

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StunnerKO · Post #972 » by **StunnerKO** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:07 am

TheStig · Post #973 » by **TheStig** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:43 am

BullChit wrote:If Zach does carry us to the playoffs this year will that prove anything or will a new excuse arise.

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If Zach can get this team to the playoffs I think it changes things. At least for me.

TheStig · Post #974 » by **TheStig** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:48 am

DuckIII wrote:
TheStig wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Getting worse and trading your only young star player doesn’t help that dynamic.

You cannot say that with certainty. This team has no real talent around him and no real path to get any with no stars coming up in FA and limited trade assets. Trading Zach allows you to maximize your pick and get a really good pick in a really good draft, aquire another pick and some additional assets in young players or future picks.

If Zach were a top 10 player, I'd agree with you. But he's just not the guy who's going to carry you to the playoffs.

I understand the concept of blowing up a team for assets. I spent two years advocating we do it with Butler. But the Bulls with Butler had zero young prospects of any potential value and was winning too many games to pick below mid-first round. And he was about to be super-maxed at age 29.

This situation is nothing like that. The Bulls have multiple young talents worth keeping or who still retain trade value, impending cap relief, and all of their picks to include in trade (unlike more than half the NBA which has already committed future picks). And with our injury situation and the likelihood of trade deadline deals, is likely still going to have a lottery pick this year. Plus Lavine is only 25 and still very clearly improving on top having an already elite season.

Trading Lavine only makes sense if you believe this year is total fools gold and he’s going to significantly revert again. And if you believe that, fine. But it’s not really supported by how the improvement is happening.

Butler was 27 when he was traded. Lavine will be up for almost the same size deal as Butler at age 27. We're talking a year or two difference. And in my opinion Butler was better. He was a top 15 guy. Mirotic was also capable of being a piece as well. They also had all of their picks and cap space coming up.

I don't feel we have the young talent or a way to get young talent and there are no star FA's coming on the market. All the Butler reasons are just as prevalent if not more prevalent right now. And Jimmy was easily the better player.

TheStig · Post #975 » by **TheStig** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:52 am

Stratmaster wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
TheStig wrote:Don't call people dumb. It's not appropriate. Do the math. Zach's played 6 full seasons and never won 30 games. This is not hard. Butler carried his team to the finals last year and playoffs the last few years. Beal has been to the playoffs and at least got his equally bad or worse team to the play in. Luka got his team to the playoffs last year in his 2nd year and nearly averaged a triple double.

1. Butler did not carry his team to the finals. Bam averaged 17.8 ppg, 10.3 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Dragic averaged 19.1 ppg, 4 rebounds and 4 assists & Hero was at 16 ppg, 3.7 assists and 5.1 rebounds. They weren't the 2010 Bulls starting Keith Bogans at SG.

2. Beal has never carried Washington the the playoffs. He won 25 games last year & 32 games the year before. The last time he was in the playoffs he had John Wall and a healthy OPJ.
And... Zach was hurt 2 of those seasons so, no, he hasn't played 6 full seasons. And... those 2 seasons were right smack in the middle of the other 4...And the Bulls have been a playoff quality team since game 3 of this season and Zach is the reason why.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

All these excuses. Everyone calls Zach Lavine the next superstar. I've yet to see an example of a superstar who couldn't win 30 games in his first 6 years. He's just not that guy. He's a top 40ish player. Not a top 10 guy. Beal is better than Zach and leading the league in scoring and I don't see him as a top 10 guy.

Pax for Prez · Post #976 » by **Pax for Prez** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:55 am

TheStig wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
TheStig wrote:You cannot say that with certainty. This team has no real talent around him and no real path to get any with no stars coming up in FA and limited trade assets. Trading Zach allows you to maximize your pick and get a really good pick in a really good draft, aquire another pick and some additional assets in young players or future picks.

If Zach were a top 10 player, I'd agree with you. But he's just not the guy who's going to carry you to the playoffs.

I understand the concept of blowing up a team for assets. I spent two years advocating we do it with Butler. But the Bulls with Butler had zero young prospects of any potential value and was winning too many games to pick below mid-first round. And he was about to be super-maxed at age 29.

This situation is nothing like that. The Bulls have multiple young talents worth keeping or who still retain trade value, impending cap relief, and all of their picks to include in trade (unlike more than half the NBA which has already committed future picks). And with our injury situation and the likelihood of trade deadline deals, is likely still going to have a lottery pick this year. Plus Lavine is only 25 and still very clearly improving on top having an already elite season.

Trading Lavine only makes sense if you believe this year is total fools gold and he’s going to significantly revert again. And if you believe that, fine. But it’s not really supported by how the improvement is happening.

Butler was 27 when he was traded. Lavine will be up for almost the same size deal as Butler at age 27. We're talking a year or two difference. And in my opinion Butler was better. He was a top 15 guy. Mirotic was also capable of being a piece as well. They also had all of their picks and cap space coming up.

I don't feel we have the young talent or a way to get young talent and there are no star FA's coming on the market. All the Butler reasons are just as prevalent if not more prevalent right now. And Jimmy was easily the better player.

Remember Butler was traded because he was eligible for the SUPER Max contract.

Zach will only be eligible for the regular Max contract.

WindyCityBorn · Post #977 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:58 am

TheStig wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
1. Butler did not carry his team to the finals. Bam averaged 17.8 ppg, 10.3 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Dragic averaged 19.1 ppg, 4 rebounds and 4 assists & Hero was at 16 ppg, 3.7 assists and 5.1 rebounds. They weren't the 2010 Bulls starting Keith Bogans at SG.

2. Beal has never carried Washington the the playoffs. He won 25 games last year & 32 games the year before. The last time he was in the playoffs he had John Wall and a healthy OPJ.
And... Zach was hurt 2 of those seasons so, no, he hasn't played 6 full seasons. And... those 2 seasons were right smack in the middle of the other 4...And the Bulls have been a playoff quality team since game 3 of this season and Zach is the reason why.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

All these excuses. Everyone calls Zach Lavine the next superstar. I've yet to see an example of a superstar who couldn't win 30 games in his first 6 years. He's just not that guy. He's a top 40ish player. Not a top 10 guy. Beal is better than Zach and leading the league in scoring and I don't see him as a top 10 guy.

I think he is and will he be a star. Never said superstar. There are only about 7 of those and that term is used way too liberally.

TheStig · Post #978 » by **TheStig** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:22 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:And... Zach was hurt 2 of those seasons so, no, he hasn't played 6 full seasons. And... those 2 seasons were right smack in the middle of the other 4...And the Bulls have been a playoff quality team since game 3 of this season and Zach is the reason why.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

All these excuses. Everyone calls Zach Lavine the next superstar. I've yet to see an example of a superstar who couldn't win 30 games in his first 6 years. He's just not that guy. He's a top 40ish player. Not a top 10 guy. Beal is better than Zach and leading the league in scoring and I don't see him as a top 10 guy.

I think he is and will he be a star. Never said superstar. There are only about 7 of those and that term is used way too liberally.

He's never gonna be a top 15 guy.

WindyCityBorn · Post #979 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am

TheStig wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheStig wrote:
All these excuses. Everyone calls Zach Lavine the next superstar. I've yet to see an example of a superstar who couldn't win 30 games in his first 6 years. He's just not that guy. He's a top 40ish player. Not a top 10 guy. Beal is better than Zach and leading the league in scoring and I don't see him as a top 10 guy.

I think he is and will he be a star. Never said superstar. There are only about 7 of those and that term is used way too liberally.

He's never gonna be a top 15 guy.

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

TheStig · Post #980 » by **TheStig** » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:31 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheStig wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
I think he is and will he be a star. Never said superstar. There are only about 7 of those and that term is used way too liberally.

He's never gonna be a top 15 guy.

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

If he becomes that. I'd say he's top 40ish. Point being, he is not irreplaceable.

What to do with Zach Lavine?