Lets talk Zach Lavine

[WindyCityBorn]

He's never gonna be a top 15 guy.

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

If he becomes that. I'd say he's top 40ish. Point being, he is not irreplaceable.

I say that opinion sucks.

[TheStig]

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

If he becomes that. I'd say he's top 40ish. Point being, he is not irreplaceable.

I say that opinion sucks.

I happen to think the opinion we could build around Zach in the next couple of years suck

[Jcool0]

He's never gonna be a top 15 guy.

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

If he becomes that. I'd say he's top 40ish. Point being, he is not irreplaceable.

Lol top 40ish... I cant take you seriously anymore.

[TheStig]

Maybe, maybe not. Top 20 is still pretty damn good.

If he becomes that. I'd say he's top 40ish. Point being, he is not irreplaceable.

Lol top 40ish... I cant take you seriously anymore.

cool beans, where do you have him?

[Michael Jackson]

Trading Zach is a PR mistake unless it is some crazy superstar trade. The Bulls since the dynasty has a reputation of not treating their stars well. Zach is well liked around then league and is the face right now. We are recovering from MJ, Pip and Butler. You want to convince the NBA we take care of players so that maybe just maybe it becomes a destination? You don’t trade Zach. Even if you draft a star next year they would be out of here in their mind. Jerry has a reputation, time for this FO to change that.

[Rupert]

I don't want to trade lavine. He's a star and still young. Build around him

[Hold That]

The Bulls aren’t trading Lavine. There’s no way AK or Eversley start their careers by trading away a 25 year old allstar. That has a legit shot at being a top 3 SG within the next 3 years. Lavine is getting Max just like Beal and Booker got, and that’s alright. Even if Lavine had a Max contract RIGHT NOW, his trade value would still be high. That’s what people need to realize when scoffing at the idea of maxing Lavine.

This season has taught us, everyone should be on the table with the exception of Lavine, PW, and our first round pick.

[DroseReturnChi]

I understand the concept of blowing up a team for assets. I spent two years advocating we do it with Butler. But the Bulls with Butler had zero young prospects of any potential value and was winning too many games to pick below mid-first round. And he was about to be super-maxed at age 29.

This situation is nothing like that. The Bulls have multiple young talents worth keeping or who still retain trade value, impending cap relief, and all of their picks to include in trade (unlike more than half the NBA which has already committed future picks). And with our injury situation and the likelihood of trade deadline deals, is likely still going to have a lottery pick this year. Plus Lavine is only 25 and still very clearly improving on top having an already elite season.

Trading Lavine only makes sense if you believe this year is total fools gold and he’s going to significantly revert again. And if you believe that, fine. But it’s not really supported by how the improvement is happening.

Butler was 27 when he was traded. Lavine will be up for almost the same size deal as Butler at age 27. We're talking a year or two difference. And in my opinion Butler was better. He was a top 15 guy. Mirotic was also capable of being a piece as well. They also had all of their picks and cap space coming up.

I don't feel we have the young talent or a way to get young talent and there are no star FA's coming on the market. All the Butler reasons are just as prevalent if not more prevalent right now. And Jimmy was easily the better player.

Remember Butler was traded because he was eligible for the SUPER Max contract.

Zach will only be eligible for the regular Max contract.

And his regular max is close to Butler's supermax or whatever gobert got. He gets an injury this team is all over while not being able to tank for kuminga at least. If he got 5/150+, I would ship Lauri today and bring 2 more all stars.
Supermax contract types cripples the team we saw through mvp rose. And no ones going to play with Lavine when hes getting paid more.

[TheStig]

I understand the concept of blowing up a team for assets. I spent two years advocating we do it with Butler. But the Bulls with Butler had zero young prospects of any potential value and was winning too many games to pick below mid-first round. And he was about to be super-maxed at age 29.

This situation is nothing like that. The Bulls have multiple young talents worth keeping or who still retain trade value, impending cap relief, and all of their picks to include in trade (unlike more than half the NBA which has already committed future picks). And with our injury situation and the likelihood of trade deadline deals, is likely still going to have a lottery pick this year. Plus Lavine is only 25 and still very clearly improving on top having an already elite season.

Trading Lavine only makes sense if you believe this year is total fools gold and he’s going to significantly revert again. And if you believe that, fine. But it’s not really supported by how the improvement is happening.

Butler was 27 when he was traded. Lavine will be up for almost the same size deal as Butler at age 27. We're talking a year or two difference. And in my opinion Butler was better. He was a top 15 guy. Mirotic was also capable of being a piece as well. They also had all of their picks and cap space coming up.

I don't feel we have the young talent or a way to get young talent and there are no star FA's coming on the market. All the Butler reasons are just as prevalent if not more prevalent right now. And Jimmy was easily the better player.

Remember Butler was traded because he was eligible for the SUPER Max contract.

Zach will only be eligible for the regular Max contract.

And the cap has gone up since then. When Lavine is a FA in 1.5 years. His 5/200 contract will basically be the same as Jimmy's super max would have been.

[Stratmaster]

1. Butler did not carry his team to the finals. Bam averaged 17.8 ppg, 10.3 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Dragic averaged 19.1 ppg, 4 rebounds and 4 assists & Hero was at 16 ppg, 3.7 assists and 5.1 rebounds. They weren't the 2010 Bulls starting Keith Bogans at SG.

2. Beal has never carried Washington the the playoffs. He won 25 games last year & 32 games the year before. The last time he was in the playoffs he had John Wall and a healthy OPJ.

And... Zach was hurt 2 of those seasons so, no, he hasn't played 6 full seasons. And... those 2 seasons were right smack in the middle of the other 4...And the Bulls have been a playoff quality team since game 3 of this season and Zach is the reason why.

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All these excuses. Everyone calls Zach Lavine the next superstar. I've yet to see an example of a superstar who couldn't win 30 games in his first 6 years. He's just not that guy. He's a top 40ish player. Not a top 10 guy. Beal is better than Zach and leading the league in scoring and I don't see him as a top 10 guy.

Who are these "everyone" calling Lavine a superstar?

Every year Zach gets better. Every year his haters opinions get proven wrong and so they raise the bar.

First he was "just a volume scorer" and chucker. Then he wasn't efficient enough. Then it was... "well he's a great scorer but that's all he does". Then a he started filling the stat sheet with rebounds, assists, blocks and steals it was "well he's not all star level". Now that everyone around the country is calling him an all-star it became "but he can't carry a team". Except he is carrying this team. So now it's "he's not a superstar".

Zach Lavine doesn't need excuses for being the best player in the team and playing at an all star level. But, it appears you and his other detractors need excuses as to why he still isn't good enough, so the goalposts keep getting moved year after year.

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[Stratmaster]

Butler was 27 when he was traded. Lavine will be up for almost the same size deal as Butler at age 27. We're talking a year or two difference. And in my opinion Butler was better. He was a top 15 guy. Mirotic was also capable of being a piece as well. They also had all of their picks and cap space coming up.

I don't feel we have the young talent or a way to get young talent and there are no star FA's coming on the market. All the Butler reasons are just as prevalent if not more prevalent right now. And Jimmy was easily the better player.

Remember Butler was traded because he was eligible for the SUPER Max contract.

Zach will only be eligible for the regular Max contract.

And the cap has gone up since then. When Lavine is a FA in 1.5 years. His 5/200 contract will basically be the same as Jimmy's super max would have been.

But will not affect the Bulls the way Butler's would have... because...as you said the cap was lower back then. The salary minimums are higher now too.

Is this really an argument you have thought through?

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[TheStig]

Remember Butler was traded because he was eligible for the SUPER Max contract.

Zach will only be eligible for the regular Max contract.

And the cap has gone up since then. When Lavine is a FA in 1.5 years. His 5/200 contract will basically be the same as Jimmy's super max would have been.

But will not affect the Bulls the way Butler's would have... because...as you said the cap was lower back then. The salary minimums are higher now too.

Is this really an argument you have thought through?

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Have you thought through your argument? If the cap has gone up since then, then the effects would have lessened just like you're saying now. Jimmy also was trying to get that extension in Minny, so it would have had to have been a shorter deal too. That's what led to him having the issues. Kat and Wiggins got paid and not him.

I had no issues giving Jimmy the money. He was easily a top 15 player. More likely in the top 10.

[DroseReturnChi]

And the cap has gone up since then. When Lavine is a FA in 1.5 years. His 5/200 contract will basically be the same as Jimmy's super max would have been.

But will not affect the Bulls the way Butler's would have... because...as you said the cap was lower back then. The salary minimums are higher now too.

Is this really an argument you have thought through?

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Have you thought through your argument? If the cap has gone up since then, then the effects would have lessened just like you're saying now. Jimmy also was trying to get that extension in Minny, so it would have had to have been a shorter deal too. That's what led to him having the issues. Kat and Wiggins got paid and not him.

I had no issues giving Jimmy the money. He was easily a top 15 player. More likely in the top 10.

Like it doesnt matter if the cap went up. Pretty sure Lavine's max rate is much higher and if you have one 40mil type, how do you even get 2 max slots when those 3 make the entire cap?? Makes absolutely no sense with simple math.
Jazz can afford with Gobert bc they have perennial all NBA in Mitchell and no one comes there fa anyways.
Lavine and one max isnt gonna do jack and all of our prized rookies contracts are running out. I doubt the Bulls win a ring even if they added a prime Lebron.

[Stratmaster]

And the cap has gone up since then. When Lavine is a FA in 1.5 years. His 5/200 contract will basically be the same as Jimmy's super max would have been.

But will not affect the Bulls the way Butler's would have... because...as you said the cap was lower back then. The salary minimums are higher now too.

Is this really an argument you have thought through?

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Have you thought through your argument? If the cap has gone up since then, then the effects would have lessened just like you're saying now. Jimmy also was trying to get that extension in Minny, so it would have had to have been a shorter deal too. That's what led to him having the issues. Kat and Wiggins got paid and not him.

I had no issues giving Jimmy the money. He was easily a top 15 player. More likely in the top 10.

The money Zach can get is 30% of the cap.

The Supermax is 35% and can be for 6 years depending on tenure and when it is negotiated.

To claim Zach's contract would essentially be the same amount of money as Butler's would have been, even if true, is meaningless.

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[Leslie Forman]

Sorry but I just do not buy that he is genuinely a 58% 2PT/44% 3PT shooter. That is straight up peak Steph Curry sh*t. He didn't gradually work his way up there, his % numbers were quite consistent until this season.

While some guys are affected badly from this season's circumstances, I suspect he is particularly being helped a lot by these empty gyms and the general chaos of this season resulting in more unprepared opponents.

You give him a max based on this year's numbers and then go back to full stadiums and a regular schedule and I just don't see it ending well.

[Stratmaster]

Sorry but I just do not buy that he is genuinely a 58% 2PT/44% 3PT shooter. That is straight up peak Steph Curry sh*t. He didn't gradually work his way up there, his % numbers were quite consistent until this season.

While some guys are affected badly from this season's circumstances, I suspect he is particularly being helped a lot by these empty gyms and the general chaos of this season resulting in more unprepared opponents.

You give him a max based on this year's numbers and then go back to full stadiums and a regular schedule and I just don't see it ending well.

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[2018C3]

At just 25 years old Zack Lavine is puting up these numbers:
FG% .510 / 3P% .427 / Efg% .599 / TRB 5.5 / AST 5.2 / STL 1.1 / BLK .5 / PTS 28.5

A former Bull also broke out at the age of 25 and took a huge step forward, here are his numbers:
FG% .462 / 3P% .378 / Efg% .502/ TRB 5.5 / AST 5.8 / STL 1.8 / BLK .6 / PTS 20.0

And here is another Past NBA players numbers:
FG% .435 / 3P% .312 / Efg% .473/ TRB 3.4/ AST 7.9/ STL 0.9/ BLK .7 / PTS 21.8
____________________________________________________________

Prior to this season, I was not sure if Zack was the right guy to build around. I'm no longer unsure.

Zack is blossoming right before our eyes. It would be foolish to trade him now. He is a pure offensive force, and his overall game is still maturing.

On almost every single night he is the most athletic guy on the floor, and he is starting to now learn how to impose his will.

I honestly believe he is a legit number one offensive option going forward. The organization now needs to start building a team around him to both compliment his strengths and weaknesses.

[ZOMG]

Sorry but I just do not buy that he is genuinely a 58% 2PT/44% 3PT shooter. That is straight up peak Steph Curry sh*t. He didn't gradually work his way up there, his % numbers were quite consistent until this season.

While some guys are affected badly from this season's circumstances, I suspect he is particularly being helped a lot by these empty gyms and the general chaos of this season resulting in more unprepared opponents.

You give him a max based on this year's numbers and then go back to full stadiums and a regular schedule and I just don't see it ending well.

PREACH

[netduri2]

Sorry but I just do not buy that he is genuinely a 58% 2PT/44% 3PT shooter. That is straight up peak Steph Curry sh*t. He didn't gradually work his way up there, his % numbers were quite consistent until this season.

While some guys are affected badly from this season's circumstances, I suspect he is particularly being helped a lot by these empty gyms and the general chaos of this season resulting in more unprepared opponents.

You give him a max based on this year's numbers and then go back to full stadiums and a regular schedule and I just don't see it ending well.

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What a horrible respond it is.

If you think otherwise then you say your argument.

Posting only scoffing imoji makes me think you don't have ability to counter-argue.

[Stratmaster]

Sorry but I just do not buy that he is genuinely a 58% 2PT/44% 3PT shooter. That is straight up peak Steph Curry sh*t. He didn't gradually work his way up there, his % numbers were quite consistent until this season.

While some guys are affected badly from this season's circumstances, I suspect he is particularly being helped a lot by these empty gyms and the general chaos of this season resulting in more unprepared opponents.

You give him a max based on this year's numbers and then go back to full stadiums and a regular schedule and I just don't see it ending well.

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What a horrible respond it is.

If you think otherwise then you say your argument.

Posting only scoffing imoji makes me think you don't have ability to counter-argue.

Yeah. Cos this discussion hasn't been had already and I wasn't a part of it.

Laughing was my real reaction. I am just going to sit back, watch the few people left keep making excuses for their past bad takes, and snicker at you. You can think whatever you want.

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