Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[Kukoc-Lauri]

It would be steal for team that aquires Lauri for 20 ish pick.

[Leslie Forman]

nobody cares abt post plays unless your archaic Boylen. What matters is he is close to a 50/40/90 guy and a 7 footer.
4 finger Bertrans cannot do anything and these types are getting 20mil/yr type contracts.

Working out really well for the Wizards..

"We need to hand out terrible contracts, because other teams are doing it" is always my favorite.

Someone somewhere is still defending the Felicio signing, I'm sure.

[ZOMG]

nobody cares abt post plays unless your archaic Boylen. What matters is he is close to a 50/40/90 guy and a 7 footer.
4 finger Bertrans cannot do anything and these types are getting 20mil/yr type contracts.

Working out really well for the Wizards..

"We need to hand out terrible contracts, because other teams are doing it" is always my favorite.

Someone somewhere is still defending the Felicio signing, I'm sure.

Hey, we can always let Lauri walk for nothing. :shrug:

Because there won't be a trade for him. You know it, I know it, the NBA knows it.

There are teams in the league who will want him and won't mind spending some money, unlike the Bulls. That much is clear. But for most of them, Lauri will be something of a luxury acquisition - essential for today's game, but not someone you want to give up a lot of assets for when you can just hand him an offer sheet.

The Bulls have painted themselves into a corner with Lauri and the clock is ticking.

[heir_jordan22]

It's not that it isn't a "fair" deal, IMO, the opportunity cost to keep him in not having that space as part of a future opportunity to bring in a 2nd or 3rd MAX star is too high - coupled with my fear that Lauri will be about as durable at Otto, making him untradeable down the road.

There is no reason for us not to have space for a second max cat. There is no such thing as a third max cat. In most scenarios, it’s likely an overpaid flawed player. In an era with increasing salary cap space, 20 mil per year in 2-3 years from now will be equivalent to 15-16K now, which is pretty much the going rate for a high end player.

I personally think that Lauri will be resigned by us at the market set rate, which will end up being a steal for us in the long run.

Hard to take this argument seriously when the lavine fans claim paying 40 per yr is cheap while they cannot imagine paying Lauri half of it. And im pretty sure Lavine isnt twice better just because he has a ridiculous 35 usg. Imagine what Lauri would avg if he had 20 shots.

You can pay Lauri 15-20 whatever the amt and still get a 3rd max. The problem is Lavine whose contract will cripple this franchise.
If Lavine only shut up and got less than max, the Bulls could have 2 more max and Lauri.

Since when does Lavine make $40m? He makes $19.5m this year, bud. The reason the Bulls won't be able to sign two max players is because they'll have Young, Satoransky, and Carter Jr under contract. If we re-sign Markkanen we might not be able to sign even one max player.

Markannen is like Andrea Bargnani. Great player to build around. Plays absolutely no defense, is one of the softest rebounder in the league, and doesn't contribute anything on offense except shooting. At least Ryan Anderson grabbed offensive rebounds at a good rate.

[ZOMG]

There is no reason for us not to have space for a second max cat. There is no such thing as a third max cat. In most scenarios, it’s likely an overpaid flawed player. In an era with increasing salary cap space, 20 mil per year in 2-3 years from now will be equivalent to 15-16K now, which is pretty much the going rate for a high end player.

I personally think that Lauri will be resigned by us at the market set rate, which will end up being a steal for us in the long run.

Hard to take this argument seriously when the lavine fans claim paying 40 per yr is cheap while they cannot imagine paying Lauri half of it. And im pretty sure Lavine isnt twice better just because he has a ridiculous 35 usg. Imagine what Lauri would avg if he had 20 shots.

You can pay Lauri 15-20 whatever the amt and still get a 3rd max. The problem is Lavine whose contract will cripple this franchise.
If Lavine only shut up and got less than max, the Bulls could have 2 more max and Lauri.

Since when does Lavine make $40m? He makes $19.5m this year, bud. The reason the Bulls won't be able to sign two max players is because they'll have Young, Satoransky, and Carter Jr under contract. If we re-sign Markkanen we might not be able to sign even one max player.

Markannen is like Andrea Bargnani. Great player to build around. Plays absolutely no defense, is one of the softest rebounder in the league, and doesn't contribute anything on offense except shooting. At least Ryan Anderson grabbed offensive rebounds at a good rate.

[coldfish]

nobody cares abt post plays unless your archaic Boylen. What matters is he is close to a 50/40/90 guy and a 7 footer.
4 finger Bertrans cannot do anything and these types are getting 20mil/yr type contracts.

Working out really well for the Wizards..

"We need to hand out terrible contracts, because other teams are doing it" is always my favorite.

Someone somewhere is still defending the Felicio signing, I'm sure.

The Bertans signing is exactly my worst fear with Lauri. They are a few months into that and would already love to be able to take back that decision.

As many people have brought up here, don't underestimate the opportunity cost for signing Lauri to $20m per year or more. The Bulls are money conscious. That $20m will come right out of what can be paid or traded for other players.

[ZOMG]

Working out really well for the Wizards..

"We need to hand out terrible contracts, because other teams are doing it" is always my favorite.

Someone somewhere is still defending the Felicio signing, I'm sure.

The Bertans signing is exactly my worst fear with Lauri. They are a few months into that and would already love to be able to take back that decision.

As many people have brought up here, don't underestimate the opportunity cost for signing Lauri to $20m per year or more. The Bulls are money conscious. That $20m will come right out of what can be paid or traded for other players.

Bertans had a nasty case of covid and hasn't been the same. It might take him the rest of the season to fully recover. Doesn't make sense to judge him too harshly when he's suddenly playing with the corpse of Russell Westbrook and seemingly having trouble getting up and down the court.

Speaking of big guys with outside shots - Frank Kaminsky, who's like a (dirt) poor man's Lauri, was waived by Sacto in December and now he's starting for an 18-10 team. Just had 17 points against the Pels. Goes to show that guys like Markkanen will always have a job in the NBA even if they can't do ANYTHING else than shoot (which is truly the case with Kaminsky - and he's not even that good of a shooter. Career 35% from the arc).

[coldfish]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

[ZOMG]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

You seriously overestimate the need to have that "3rd banana" be some borderline All Star type with a set of high end skills in several areas. That's what you expect from the max guy, and there's a lot of max guys who are pretty one-dimensional when you really get down to it.

As I've always said, it's a specialists's league. From his 2nd contract on, Markkanen will be paid to put the ball into the basket. He's not going to be paid for rebounding (which, by the way, he's perfectly adequate at for his role/position in the modern NBA) or rim protection. His ability to defend 1-on-1 on the perimeter is a very nice luxury to have in a league where harrassing 3pt shooters is more and more important, but again... even that's not something that will make or break him.

Over the time Lauri's been in the league, the game has moved EVEN MORE into the direction of his specific skills. A 7ft guy who's a match up nightmare, doesn't need the ball that much, scores efficiently - and most importantly, can get his shot off from the perimeter any time he wants to? I guarantee teams will want to take a chance on him even with his slightly worrying injury history.

[coldfish]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

You seriously overestimate the need to have that "3rd banana" be some borderline All Star type with a set of high end skills in several areas. That's what you expect from the max guy, and there's a lot of max guys who are pretty one-dimensional when you really get down to it.

As I've always said, it's a specialists's league. From his 2nd contract on, Markkanen will be paid to put the ball into the basket. He's not going to be paid for rebounding (which is perfectly adequate for his role/position in the modern NBA) or rim protection. His ability to defend 1-on-1 on the perimeter is a very nice luxury to have in a league where harrassing 3pt shooters is more and more important, but again... even that's not something that will make or break him.

Over the time Lauri's been in the league, the game has moved EVEN MORE into the direction of his specific skills. A 7ft guy who's a match up nightmare, doesn't need the ball that much, scores efficiently - and most importantly, can get his shot off from the perimeter any time he wants to? I guarantee teams will want to take a chance on him even with his slightly worrying injury history.

It is most definitely not a specialists league. Specialists have never driven winners and the league is actually going away from that. We are so far off on this that I'm not even sure how to write this post.

Sure a lot of the top players have flaws in their games but invariably, they have a lot of varied skills. Out of the many things a player contributes (shooting, ball handling, passing, inside scoring, rebounding, on ball defense, off ball defense) winning teams are stacked with players who do several of those things well. Lauri does one and that's his fundamental problem.

Lauri is not a match up nightmare. Put a small forward on him and tell the guy to stay tight and Lauri will disappear. Earlier this year Lauri was hot against the Knicks and Thibs just took him out of the game. This is why so many of his detractors call for him to develop a post game. If he can be taken out by smaller, faster players then his value is pretty small. If the Bulls ever got into a playoff series where a team was gameplanning hard, Lauri would just allow teams to go small on the Bulls and it would create a huge problem. Much like happened with Mirotic in Milwaukee, Lauri would end up on the bench as a liability.

[Wingy]

"We need to hand out terrible contracts, because other teams are doing it" is always my favorite.

Someone somewhere is still defending the Felicio signing, I'm sure.

The Bertans signing is exactly my worst fear with Lauri. They are a few months into that and would already love to be able to take back that decision.

As many people have brought up here, don't underestimate the opportunity cost for signing Lauri to $20m per year or more. The Bulls are money conscious. That $20m will come right out of what can be paid or traded for other players.

Bertans had a nasty case of covid and hasn't been the same. It might take him the rest of the season to fully recover. Doesn't make sense to judge him too harshly when he's suddenly playing with the corpse of Russell Westbrook and seemingly having trouble getting up and down the court.

Speaking of big guys with outside shots - Frank Kaminsky, who's like a (dirt) poor man's Lauri, was waived by Sacto in December and now he's starting for an 18-10 team. Just had 17 points against the Pels. Goes to show that guys like Markkanen will always have a job in the NBA even if they can't do ANYTHING else than shoot (which is truly the case with Kaminsky - and he's not even that good of a shooter. Career 35% from the arc).

I agree that they have a place, but that place doesn’t require a higher-end salary.

Lauri, even with his short hot start this season is 36% from the arc for his career.

[FreePaulZipser]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

Your expectations of a third option is way too high. He is posting better numbers than Kevin love when he was 3rd fiddle. I never understood why people complained about pf rebounds when most only get you 6 or 7. Your few exceptions being guys like Randle, Giannis, AD, and Sabonis. His defense has been more than marginal. It's just that no one is scared of him. People finish right through him. I'm not saying he is a good defender by any means as he is still a bad defender but watch him play and you can't tell me he doesn't seem to been in good positions and people just still finish or hits it with him closing out.

Also i posted this on B/R a few weeks ago, Lauri is a guy that needs to be set up. We don't have anyone outside of Thad that does it on a consistent basis. John Collins is assisted on 74% of his 2 pointers and 100% of his 3 pointers. That is EXTREMELY high. Lauri is assisted on 64% of his shots from 2 and 98% of his shots from 3. There is no coincidence that Lauri's 2 best yeast came when he was assisted on 64% of his 2 point shot. And to put John Collins % rate in perspective, Rudy Gobert is assisted on 76%.

I can honestly care less if we trade Lauri or resign him for 20+mil a year but some of ya'll act like he is suppose to be AD or Embiid. Here take the ball and score. That isn't his game. This is where Zach's and Coby's lack of real playmaking hurts.

[DroseReturnChi]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

20 is literally nothing esp when Lauri proved he could be an elite 3rd option throughout 4 yrs. In fact, his 2nd and current season he posted numbers close to elite number 2 option, if you had someone like Magic, Lebron you can easily win rings as two stars.
Even if he played 55 meaningless rs games, he is making one fifth of the cap its not going to blow up a team with his MIA.
Although he kind of busted from Dirk expectactions, he still can play similar to Kevin Love and you can win a championship with him as the main core. The more pressing problem is Lavine as option 1 and where are you going to find a player thats better and complements him?

[coldfish]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

Your expectations of a third option is way too high. He is posting better numbers than Kevin love when he was 3rd fiddle. I never understood why people complained about pf rebounds when most only get you 6 or 7. Your few exceptions being guys like Randle, Giannis, AD, and Sabonis. His defense has been more than marginal. It's just that no one is scared of him. People finish right through him. I'm not saying he is a good defender by any means as he is still a bad defender but watch him play and you can't tell me he doesn't seem to been in good positions and people just still finish or hits it with him closing out.

Also i posted this on B/R a few weeks ago, Lauri is a guy that needs to be set up. We don't have anyone outside of Thad that does it on a consistent basis. John Collins is assisted on 74% of his 2 pointers and 100% of his 3 pointers. That is EXTREMELY high. Lauri is assisted on 64% of his shots from 2 and 98% of his shots from 3. There is no coincidence that Lauri's 2 best yeast came when he was assisted on 64% of his 2 point shot. And to put John Collins % rate in perspective, Rudy Gobert is assisted on 76%.

I can honestly care less if we trade Lauri or resign him for 20+mil a year but some of ya'll act like he is suppose to be AD or Embiid. Here take the ball and score. That isn't his game. This is where Zach's and Coby's lack of real playmaking hurts.

First off, I wouldn't be particularly high on giving John Collins massive money.

Lauri's defense is terrible. I think one of the primary issues is that he is so terrible that many people don't realize how terrible he is. In the past, he wouldn't rotate at all and would just let people get wide open shots. He has helped some this year but he is still far less than most of the team. With Lauri out, watch how much the Bulls help the helper right now. Teams rarely get uncontested shots off. There is a reason the defense is so much better with him out. If he was playing, you would be seeing a lot more wide open shots and not realize it was Lauri's fault because Lauri would be 15 feet away diligently guarding a man without the ball.

Anyways, in order to be effective Lauri needs:
- A high end set up man
- An offense set up specifically for him
- Other good shooters around him to give him space
- An elite defensive help guy at the 3 and 5 spots to make up for him
- A few people to rebound

That's a really long list and why I would hesitate to give him a big contract.

Just in general, one thing that irritates a lot of people with Lauri is the long litany of excuses for him and needs about how other players have to do things for Lauri to make him effective. Flip this around. What does Lauri do to make his teammates better? Defense? Nope. Rebounding or boxing out? Nope. Passing? He is a black hole. The only thing he does is pull his man out of the middle but even when that happens, his fans will get angry because someone isn't doing something to pull that man off so Lauri get get his usage up.

[sco]

It would be steal for team that aquires Lauri for 20 ish pick.

I wouldn't press charges.

[coldfish]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

20 is literally nothing esp when Lauri proved he could be an elite 3rd option throughout 4 yrs. In fact, his 2nd and current season he posted numbers close to elite number 2 option, if you had someone like Magic, Lebron you can easily win rings as two stars.
Even if he played 55 meaningless rs games, he is making one fifth of the cap its not going to blow up a team with his MIA.
Although he kind of busted from Dirk expectactions, he still can play similar to Kevin Love and you can win a championship with him as the main core. The more pressing problem is Lavine as option 1 and where are you going to find a player thats better and complements him?

20 is a big part of the cap. As we have seen with Bertans just recently, paying that kind of money to a shooter is a massive error.

So, now we just need a prime Lebron and then Lauri would be fine. The Cavs signed Channing Frye for nothing back in Lebron's Cavs run. If that is what Lauri's contribution is, then he has no value to a team outside of MLE type contracts.

But yeah, if Lavine was one of the greatest players of all time at his peak the Bulls would be in a better position. In other news, water is wet.

[bullslas]

Lauri has never had a guard to get him the ball, Bulls should trade WCJ, White, for a PG. Everyone wants Lauri out, its amazing, Bulls have to make a comeback to beat the Pistons everyone is saying look now we don’t need Lauri. (Thats how the thread went)

Lauri is a great 3rd option and Zach is a nice 2nd option. Now let’s find a star to be our number 1.

[FreePaulZipser]

Jerry has been very clear that he won't pay the tax unless the team is already top 4. The Lux tax level is 133m for the NBA which means that the Bulls have to build a title contender with 133m. Its obviously very hard.

You basically have room for two max slots, one highly paid non max and then the roster has to be filled out with rookie scale and MLE types. Can Lauri be that 3rd banana? Based on what we have seen, he kind of has the potential but he isn't there yet and he is injured frequently. Most concerning is that he seems to have little interest in being anything other than a 1 dimensional player. We have seen no improvement in his passing or rebounding. His defensive improvement has been marginal. He is basically just a shooter.

I really don't think you can build a contender with Lauri making $20m or more on the roster. He would be a serious roadblock unless he really rounds out his game.

Your expectations of a third option is way too high. He is posting better numbers than Kevin love when he was 3rd fiddle. I never understood why people complained about pf rebounds when most only get you 6 or 7. Your few exceptions being guys like Randle, Giannis, AD, and Sabonis. His defense has been more than marginal. It's just that no one is scared of him. People finish right through him. I'm not saying he is a good defender by any means as he is still a bad defender but watch him play and you can't tell me he doesn't seem to been in good positions and people just still finish or hits it with him closing out.

Also i posted this on B/R a few weeks ago, Lauri is a guy that needs to be set up. We don't have anyone outside of Thad that does it on a consistent basis. John Collins is assisted on 74% of his 2 pointers and 100% of his 3 pointers. That is EXTREMELY high. Lauri is assisted on 64% of his shots from 2 and 98% of his shots from 3. There is no coincidence that Lauri's 2 best yeast came when he was assisted on 64% of his 2 point shot. And to put John Collins % rate in perspective, Rudy Gobert is assisted on 76%.

I can honestly care less if we trade Lauri or resign him for 20+mil a year but some of ya'll act like he is suppose to be AD or Embiid. Here take the ball and score. That isn't his game. This is where Zach's and Coby's lack of real playmaking hurts.

First off, I wouldn't be particularly high on giving John Collins massive money.

Lauri's defense is terrible. I think one of the primary issues is that he is so terrible that many people don't realize how terrible he is. In the past, he wouldn't rotate at all and would just let people get wide open shots. He has helped some this year but he is still far less than most of the team. With Lauri out, watch how much the Bulls help the helper right now. Teams rarely get uncontested shots off. There is a reason the defense is so much better with him out. If he was playing, you would be seeing a lot more wide open shots and not realize it was Lauri's fault because Lauri would be 15 feet away diligently guarding a man without the ball.

Anyways, in order to be effective Lauri needs:
- A high end set up man
- An offense set up specifically for him
- Other good shooters around him to give him space
- An elite defensive help guy at the 3 and 5 spots to make up for him
- A few people to rebound

That's a really long list and why I would hesitate to give him a big contract.

Just in general, one thing that irritates a lot of people with Lauri is the long litany of excuses for him and needs about how other players have to do things for Lauri to make him effective. Flip this around. What does Lauri do to make his teammates better? Defense? Nope. Rebounding or boxing out? Nope. Passing? He is a black hole. The only thing he does is pull his man out of the middle but even when that happens, his fans will get angry because someone isn't doing something to pull that man off so Lauri get get his usage up.

This is why i haven't really respond to post about Lauri because very few in here are sensible about him. He is either SEVERLY overrated or underrated.

Probably not going to respond much after this but would you consider AD a black hole? His assist numbers are on par with his. He isn't being asked to pass the ball. Again for a POWER FORWARD he is a mid of the pack rebounder. So to say we need all of these rebounders just isn't true. We were one of the best rebounding teams with Robin and Lauri. Do you know what would help rebounding? How about the Starting center getting more than 1 more rebound than your starting power forward or just having a back-up CENTER that can rebound in general........

Most bigs need a high end set up man. i don't know if you noticed that but there are only a handful of bigs that get it on their own. He doesn't need a offense specifically for him. Have you not watched this season? Dude gets 13 shots and is giving us 19 points.... 13 shots isn't what i would call having to cater your offense to him.

Most people need shooters around them for space..... What are you on. This generation is built on space and pace lol. Also what is bad about having an Elite defensive Center and Wing? How many championships have you seen won without that type of combination...... i'll wait for that answer.

[sco]

Your expectations of a third option is way too high. He is posting better numbers than Kevin love when he was 3rd fiddle. I never understood why people complained about pf rebounds when most only get you 6 or 7. Your few exceptions being guys like Randle, Giannis, AD, and Sabonis. His defense has been more than marginal. It's just that no one is scared of him. People finish right through him. I'm not saying he is a good defender by any means as he is still a bad defender but watch him play and you can't tell me he doesn't seem to been in good positions and people just still finish or hits it with him closing out.

Also i posted this on B/R a few weeks ago, Lauri is a guy that needs to be set up. We don't have anyone outside of Thad that does it on a consistent basis. John Collins is assisted on 74% of his 2 pointers and 100% of his 3 pointers. That is EXTREMELY high. Lauri is assisted on 64% of his shots from 2 and 98% of his shots from 3. There is no coincidence that Lauri's 2 best yeast came when he was assisted on 64% of his 2 point shot. And to put John Collins % rate in perspective, Rudy Gobert is assisted on 76%.

I can honestly care less if we trade Lauri or resign him for 20+mil a year but some of ya'll act like he is suppose to be AD or Embiid. Here take the ball and score. That isn't his game. This is where Zach's and Coby's lack of real playmaking hurts.

First off, I wouldn't be particularly high on giving John Collins massive money.

Lauri's defense is terrible. I think one of the primary issues is that he is so terrible that many people don't realize how terrible he is. In the past, he wouldn't rotate at all and would just let people get wide open shots. He has helped some this year but he is still far less than most of the team. With Lauri out, watch how much the Bulls help the helper right now. Teams rarely get uncontested shots off. There is a reason the defense is so much better with him out. If he was playing, you would be seeing a lot more wide open shots and not realize it was Lauri's fault because Lauri would be 15 feet away diligently guarding a man without the ball.

Anyways, in order to be effective Lauri needs:
- A high end set up man
- An offense set up specifically for him
- Other good shooters around him to give him space
- An elite defensive help guy at the 3 and 5 spots to make up for him
- A few people to rebound

That's a really long list and why I would hesitate to give him a big contract.

Just in general, one thing that irritates a lot of people with Lauri is the long litany of excuses for him and needs about how other players have to do things for Lauri to make him effective. Flip this around. What does Lauri do to make his teammates better? Defense? Nope. Rebounding or boxing out? Nope. Passing? He is a black hole. The only thing he does is pull his man out of the middle but even when that happens, his fans will get angry because someone isn't doing something to pull that man off so Lauri get get his usage up.

This is why i haven't really respond to post about Lauri because very few in here are sensible about him. He is either SEVERLY overrated or underrated.

Probably not going to respond much after this but would you consider AD a black hole? His assist numbers are on par with his. He isn't being asked to pass the ball. Again for a POWER FORWARD he is a mid of the pack rebounder. So to say we need all of these rebounders just isn't true. We were one of the best rebounding teams with Robin and Lauri. Do you know what would help rebounding? How about the Starting center getting more than 1 more rebound than your starting power forward or just having a back-up CENTER that can rebound in general........

Most bigs need a high end set up man. i don't know if you noticed that but there are only a handful of bigs that get it on their own. He doesn't need a offense specifically for him. Have you not watched this season? Dude gets 13 shots and is giving us 19 points.... 13 shots isn't what i would call having to cater your offense to him.

Most people need shooters around them for space..... What are you on. This generation is built on space and pace lol. Also what is bad about having an Elite defensive Center and Wing? How many championships have you seen won without that type of combination...... i'll wait for that answer.

I'll admit my over-excitement for Collins may be just "anybody but Lauri - grass is always greener" syndrome. That said, Lauri has showed me that it's better to have a quicker 6'8 PF than an average speed 7'0 PF.

[coldfish]

Your expectations of a third option is way too high. He is posting better numbers than Kevin love when he was 3rd fiddle. I never understood why people complained about pf rebounds when most only get you 6 or 7. Your few exceptions being guys like Randle, Giannis, AD, and Sabonis. His defense has been more than marginal. It's just that no one is scared of him. People finish right through him. I'm not saying he is a good defender by any means as he is still a bad defender but watch him play and you can't tell me he doesn't seem to been in good positions and people just still finish or hits it with him closing out.

Also i posted this on B/R a few weeks ago, Lauri is a guy that needs to be set up. We don't have anyone outside of Thad that does it on a consistent basis. John Collins is assisted on 74% of his 2 pointers and 100% of his 3 pointers. That is EXTREMELY high. Lauri is assisted on 64% of his shots from 2 and 98% of his shots from 3. There is no coincidence that Lauri's 2 best yeast came when he was assisted on 64% of his 2 point shot. And to put John Collins % rate in perspective, Rudy Gobert is assisted on 76%.

I can honestly care less if we trade Lauri or resign him for 20+mil a year but some of ya'll act like he is suppose to be AD or Embiid. Here take the ball and score. That isn't his game. This is where Zach's and Coby's lack of real playmaking hurts.

First off, I wouldn't be particularly high on giving John Collins massive money.

Lauri's defense is terrible. I think one of the primary issues is that he is so terrible that many people don't realize how terrible he is. In the past, he wouldn't rotate at all and would just let people get wide open shots. He has helped some this year but he is still far less than most of the team. With Lauri out, watch how much the Bulls help the helper right now. Teams rarely get uncontested shots off. There is a reason the defense is so much better with him out. If he was playing, you would be seeing a lot more wide open shots and not realize it was Lauri's fault because Lauri would be 15 feet away diligently guarding a man without the ball.

Anyways, in order to be effective Lauri needs:
- A high end set up man
- An offense set up specifically for him
- Other good shooters around him to give him space
- An elite defensive help guy at the 3 and 5 spots to make up for him
- A few people to rebound

That's a really long list and why I would hesitate to give him a big contract.

Just in general, one thing that irritates a lot of people with Lauri is the long litany of excuses for him and needs about how other players have to do things for Lauri to make him effective. Flip this around. What does Lauri do to make his teammates better? Defense? Nope. Rebounding or boxing out? Nope. Passing? He is a black hole. The only thing he does is pull his man out of the middle but even when that happens, his fans will get angry because someone isn't doing something to pull that man off so Lauri get get his usage up.

This is why i haven't really respond to post about Lauri because very few in here are sensible about him. He is either SEVERLY overrated or underrated.

Probably not going to respond much after this but would you consider AD a black hole? His assist numbers are on par with his. He isn't being asked to pass the ball. Again for a POWER FORWARD he is a mid of the pack rebounder. So to say we need all of these rebounders just isn't true. We were one of the best rebounding teams with Robin and Lauri. Do you know what would help rebounding? How about the Starting center getting more than 1 more rebound than your starting power forward or just having a back-up CENTER that can rebound in general........

Most bigs need a high end set up man. i don't know if you noticed that but there are only a handful of bigs that get it on their own. He doesn't need a offense specifically for him. Have you not watched this season? Dude gets 13 shots and is giving us 19 points.... 13 shots isn't what i would call having to cater your offense to him.

Most people need shooters around them for space..... What are you on. This generation is built on space and pace lol. Also what is bad about having an Elite defensive Center and Wing? How many championships have you seen won without that type of combination...... i'll wait for that answer.

Just to be clear, I think Lauri has played well this year. I think he could be a contributor on a title contender and would be happy if the Bulls could extend him on a reasonable contract.

I think a lot of underrated/overrated aspect of Lauri is that posters are pushing each other to extremes in arguing with each other. In the posts where I have taken moderate positions on Lauri, no one really argues with it and the post gets buried. When someone takes an extreme position, others will argue with it and the debate goes on for pages and both sides get pushed to the extremes.

Just in general, I would divide the game up into phases:
On ball scoring (shot creation by dribble or post play)
Off ball scoring (mostly shooting)
Passing (can be a PG setting up others or a big man passing out of the post)
On ball defense
Off ball defense
Rebounding

Those things aren't equal value. On ball scoring is most valuable. Regardless, there is no one who is good at everything. All time greats are good at most of that. Stars are good at several. I'll do AD. He is a good on ball scorer (he can create his own shot), off ball scorer (he is a good roll man), a good on ball defender and a very good off ball defender. That's 4 things that he is doing at a high level. I agree that his passing and rebounding are rather meh.

I don't expect Lauri to be AD. That's unrealistic and unfair. He doesn't have to be very good at 4 of those things. That said, he has to add at least one skill other than off ball scoring that he is good at in order to really justify the salary he is looking for. Just one.