2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

[NatP4]

I’ll take 9 points 6 rebounds 5 assists in 28 minutes with elite defense in a massive top 5 matchup on national TV.

Wagner is what he is. Makes the right play on offense, is one of the absolute best defensive players in college basketball, if not the absolute best. He’s younger than a lot of the NCAA freshman.

He’s as close to a lock to be a good NBA player as anyone in the draft. The only players that I would forsure take over him are Suggs&Mobley. That’s it.

[prime1time]

Watching this Michigan Ohio State game. Wagner has done basically next to nothing. Far too many games, he just no significant impact. A top 10 to 15 pick should have a noticeable impact on the game.

Wagner has been fantastic as usual. He’s not a 1 on 1 player. His impact is stuffing the stat sheet and making little plays. Being in the right sport on defense and making winning plays.

From what I have gathered from your posts/basketball opinions, I don’t think these are the kind of players/prospects you gravitate towards.

4 shot attempts is not going to cut it. In the biggest game of the season, he was basically the 6th option. Five players took more shots than him. He wasn’t initiating offense and creating for others consistently either. For a player that people will say will develop into Gordon Hayward or Nic Batum - i.e. a 15 ppg scorer - I just don’t see how he will break down his defenders consistently at the NBA level. He can’t even break down College defenders. He can’t take smaller guys into the post. He can’t take bigger guys off the dribble. For this to be a fantastic game, and for him to be talked about with players like Jalen Green and Jonathan Kuminga is laughable.

There’s nothing wrong with Franz being a glue guy, who if he develops a 3 point shot can be an effective player. But you can find that in the 2nd round. Imo, Wagner supporters are trying to have it both ways. They want to project his scoring to be like a Gordon Hayward, when he clearly doesn’t even have any developed scoring game yet when he plays a game like he does today they say it’s fantastic. If this is what we can expect from Wagner then he shouldn’t be considered a first round player.

At best you’re looking at a role player if his 3-point shot develops. But right now he rarely initiates offense, he rarely breaks down his defender and he disappears for long stretches of the game.

NBDraft.Net has a Wagner as #77 on their big board. Personally I see him as a late first/early second. And it’s certainly ridiculous to discuss him with the top prospects in the draft. Have you seen anything from a Wagner to suggest he has the ability to score against NBA defenders.

[NatP4]

Wagner is listed top 15 in almost every mock draft.

A simple google search would tell you that

[NatP4]

Here’s an awesome scouting report on Wagner:

Read on Twitter

[NatP4]

If Daishen Nix can get his shot to fall, he would be a really interesting prospect. 13 assists yesterday. Averaging 8 assists&8 rebounds per36. Has been used as a backup PG playing limited minutes with g league bench players.

Huge game from Jalen Green yesterday.

Kuminga is now down to 9-39 from 3!

[pcbothwel]

If Daishen Nix can get his shot to fall, he would be a really interesting prospect. 13 assists yesterday. Averaging 8 assists&8 rebounds per36. Has been used as a backup PG playing limited minutes with g league bench players.

Huge game from Jalen Green yesterday.

Yeah. His first step is ELITE. I also like his aggressiveness. I feel like he ends up in the top 3-4 and I see a lot of Donovan Mitchell in his game.
I'll need to see more... but he's moving up my board. This top 5 is going to get interesting. I think the players available at 6-8 will be VERY similar to the players available at 12-14. Boukright, Springer, Moody, Johnson, Barnes, Wagner, Sengun, Butler, Kispert, etc. I have my favorites, but there really is a cluster of guys in the mid-late lotto... After that I see a big drop off and then see a group of guys in the 25-35 range who are very intriguing: Jackson, Mitchell, Ayayi, Dosunmu, Garuba, Duarte, Lewis, Bassey, etc.

[NatP4]

Per36 for Jalen Green: 20.5 points 3.4 assists 5.8 rebounds 1.7 steals 2.9 turnovers on 61.8 TS%.

His defense and playmaking have looked way better recently.

I still don’t see a plus defender or primary playmaker, but a CJ Mccollum/2021 Zach Lavine level impact could be a good ceiling for Green. Efficient lights out scorer, secondary playmaker, average to below average defensively.

I would tier it like this(still know nothing about international prospects):

Tier 1
Mobley
Suggs
Cunningham

Tier 2
Green
Wagner
Butler
Springer

Tier 3:
Kispert
J Johnson
Kuminga
Dosunmu
Barnes
Moody
Bouknight
Nix
Jackson
McBride
Duarte
Queta

That’s just a (very)rough draft of where we are currently at in the season. Impossible to evaluate a guy like Jalen Johnson now. Where is Dat when you need him?

Kuminga is crashing down to earth. He lacks elite basketball IQ which prevents him from being a major plus on the defensive end, he flashes good secondary playmaking skills, but turns it over a ton and has a mediocre handle. He cannot shoot at all. His misses are BAD, which seriously limits his offensive upside.

[pcbothwel]

Nat... havent really dove in on my board yet, but we are REALLY close. Dont worry about the order within the tiers as I havent gotten that detailed:

Tier 1
Evan Mobley
Cade Cunningham
Jalen Suggs

Tier 2
Jalen Green
Jonathan Kuminga
Franz Wagner
Jaden Springer
James Bouknight
Jared Butler
Alperen Sengun

Tier 3
Scottie Barnes
Moses Moody
Usman Garuba
Keon Johnson
Terrence Shannon
Trendon Watford
Scottie Lewis
Daishen Nix
Corey Kispert
Chris Duarte
Davion Mitchell
Ayo Dosunmu
Charles Bassey
Isaiah Jackson

1st round prospects Im Not a fan of:
Jalen Johnson
Kai Jones
Day'Ron Sharpe
Cam Thomas
Trayce Jackson-Davis

Again, its early and have plenty more to do...but you gave me motivation to put this up. lol
I havent jumped in internationally, but Sengun, Sylla, Prkacin, all look interesting

[prime1time]

Wagner is listed top 15 in almost every mock draft.

A simple google search would tell you that

This is simply not true.
https://theathletic.com/2300300/2021/01/08/2021-nba-mock-draft-prospects-sam-vecenie-mock-2-0-cade-cunningham-jalen-suggs/
He's 36
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2021-nba-draft-big-board-oklahoma-states-cade-cunningham-leads-first-prospect-rankings/
Not in the top 50
https://nbadraftroom.com/p/2021-nba-mock-draft/
Not ranked at all
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/12/08/2021-nba-draft-big-board-top-60-prospects
#32

Regardless, it will be fun to track his career. I will hold him to being in the 2nd tier of players in this draft. Too often people make projections yet get quiet when NBA careers start.

[prime1time]

I like Kai Jones for the Wizards. He's a couple of years away but he's just oozing with potential.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

You can argue against him but the reality is that this is where the NBA is going. Quick, agile, long, athletic 4's and 5's. He needs to be developed but doesn't every big man? Okongwu is averaging 10 minutes a game. Mo Bamba struggles to get on the floor. What makes Jones different than any of the other young athletic bigs that get burn like Mitchell Robinson or Precious Achiwua or Bam Adebayo as a rookie?

[prime1time]

Nat... havent really dove in on my board yet, but we are REALLY close. Dont worry about the order within the tiers as I havent gotten that detailed:

Tier 1
Evan Mobley
Cade Cunningham
Jalen Suggs

Tier 2
Jalen Green
Jonathan Kuminga
Franz Wagner
Jaden Springer
James Bouknight
Jared Butler
Alperen Sengun

Tier 3
Scottie Barnes
Moses Moody
Usman Garuba
Keon Johnson
Terrence Shannon
Trendon Watford
Scottie Lewis
Daishen Nix
Corey Kispert
Chris Duarte
Davion Mitchell
Ayo Dosunmu
Charles Bassey
Isaiah Jackson

1st round prospects Im Not a fan of:
Jalen Johnson
Kai Jones
Day'Ron Sharpe
Cam Thomas
Trayce Jackson-Davis

Again, its early and have plenty more to do...but you gave me motivation to put this up. lol
I havent jumped in internationally, but Sengun, Sylla, Prkacin, all look interesting

What's the argument against Jones?

[NatP4]

Wagner is listed top 15 in almost every mock draft.

A simple google search would tell you that

This is simply not true.
https://theathletic.com/2300300/2021/01/08/2021-nba-mock-draft-prospects-sam-vecenie-mock-2-0-cade-cunningham-jalen-suggs/
He's 36
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2021-nba-draft-big-board-oklahoma-states-cade-cunningham-leads-first-prospect-rankings/
Not in the top 50
https://nbadraftroom.com/p/2021-nba-mock-draft/
Not ranked at all
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/12/08/2021-nba-draft-big-board-top-60-prospects
#32

Regardless, it will be fun to track his career. I will hold him to being in the 2nd tier of players in this draft. Too often people make projections yet get quiet when NBA careers start.

Those are from early January and December. Also, Wagner is listed in 2022 for a couple of those. I’ll help you out though.

8 days ago, #15:

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/2021-nba-mock-draft-20-early-first-round-projections-all-30-teams

14 days ago, #14:

http://www.tankathon.com/mock_draft

3 weeks ago, #12:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2021/2/3/22255550/nba-mock-draft-2021-cade-cunningham-wizards-knicks-pistons

3 weeks ago, #14:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2928874-2021-nba-mock-draft-full-2-round-predictions-entering-february.amp.html

[Ruzious]

I like Kai Jones' potential a lot - but he does tend to disappear on offense. He's got to make himself more of an offensive factor.

[pcbothwel]

What's the argument against Jones?

First, I should stipulate that I dont like the player based on where they are being projected. Sharpe, for example, will have a nice NBA career...but in no way should he be in the top 15 as projected by some sites.

Second, My mistake... I put down Kai Jones when I was thinking Greg Brown. Im not particularly high on Jones, but just lukewarm. Brown... Hard pass.
But Ill still address Jones. I love his energy, but what exactly does he do well? He's a big that doesnt rebound, doesnt show great awareness, doesnt show elite rim protection and has a REALLY low usage rate. His shot has some projection, but its a really small sample size.
In the early 2nd, sure... but I have him behind Jackson, Garuba, and even Bassey (Sleeper).

[NatP4]

Same thing again today. Green was good, very efficient, tough to guard. Kuminga couldn’t throw a rock in the ocean.

[prime1time]

Watch on YouTube

8-12, 5-6 from 3...

[Dat2U]

I think we can start looking at mid-1st rounders now.

[Ruzious]

I think we can start looking at mid-1st rounders now.

Yeah, time to switch gears. I'm interested to hear your take on Sengun. I LOVE his offensive game and believe it will continue to expand (he's only made a handful of 3's, but his form on a step-back corner 3 was perfect, and his passing is improving), and he's got good defensive stats, but will his defense play enough for him to excel in the NBA? Skills at 18 are off the charts, imo.

[Tyrone Messby]

LSU alum here. We want NO part of Watford. He is charmin soft and is as immature as they come. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a very good college player but I don’t think he will ever amount to anything in the pros. Love Cam Thomas but he is a bit of a ball hog. He is starting to play more within the offense though.
Javonte Smart? Now that is a guy who will be in the league for years. Would love to get him in the 2nd round. He is extremely crafty. He is our Russ Westbrook.

[NatP4]

It’s Wagner or Butler for me. I bet we end up in the 12-16 range.

Blessing in disguise