Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

[prime1time]

A Beal trade before this offseason should be put to rest. 4 wins in a row and a winning record when we are healthy. Beal isn't going anywhere.

I think you’re right. They’re going to blow it yet again, but it shouldn’t be surprising. The Wizards have been irrelevant since I was toddling around preschool during the Carter Administration, and I’m freaking 46 years old w/no franchise relevance ever in 35 years of paying attention. I really need to focus on the USMNT. This is utterly hopeless. Sorry for the Debbie downer take. I’m just beyond sick of this.

I wouldn't be so down. There's risk involved in making a Beal trade before the trade deadline because we'd be dealing for a position in the draft lottery instead of an actual draft pick. Let's let things settle down, see how this season plays out and then adjust from there. No point in being so pessimistic when we have a guy like Beal. Beal's on track to be an All-NBA caliber player this year and he still has room to improve.

[penbeast0]

never mind

[TGW]

Dang! We've won 4 in a row, & people are complaining!

Were we jumping up and down in delight when we were losing pretty much every game we played?

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

[gambitx777]

If we trade beal we are gonna be bad enough that our pick is gonna be the top 5 pick for the next 2 or 3 years. What we need are assets in the war chest.

So about ten teams can beat NYK best offer for beal.

But what would that best offer be. Imo
Well we would be trade beal and Bertans in this trade keep in mind. For,

Barret, quickly, topping, robinson. You can include nittilkina and Brazdeikis if you want they are none factors but young.

Picks

2 2021 firsts dal and NYK, 2 2023 firsts NYK and dal and either

1 more future firsts from nyk
Or
1 2021 second from det 2 2023 seconds from det and utah. 1 2024 second from Utah and 1 2026 around from bucks.

That's probably the very best they can do and I think a few of teams can still beat that! The wizarda still might say all those mid their assets are not enough. Not to mention some fans might argue that's too much from the NYK sode. I'm just saying if they wanted to sell the farm for beal, that's the farm.

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We definitely aren't trading Beal for that package prior to the Trade Deadline.

The only way a New York deal is happening is if they end up with a top 4 pick after the lottery. Then maybe we can work something out.

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[Silvie Lysandra]

Dang! We've won 4 in a row, & people are complaining!

Were we jumping up and down in delight when we were losing pretty much every game we played?

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

shrug, masai built a championship team with ONE top 10 pick. He inherited DeRozan and Jonas, but the Raptors were very competitive without him. The Wizards have had 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top 10 picks since Gungate. Sure, you *can* do the process to compensate for being bad at drafting and scouting and development, (and even then, Hinkie had a pretty good hit rate), but you can get good without doing so.

[TGW]

Dang! We've won 4 in a row, & people are complaining!

Were we jumping up and down in delight when we were losing pretty much every game we played?

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

shrug, masai built a championship team with ONE top 10 pick. He inherited DeRozan and Jonas, but the Raptors were very competitive without him. The Wizards have had 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top 10 picks since Gungate. Sure, you *can* do the process to compensate for being bad at drafting and scouting and development, (and even then, Hinkie had a pretty good hit rate), but you can get good without doing so.

when was the last time the wizards were competitive without high draft picks? yes masai did this, but we don't have masai so that's a moot point

[gambitx777]

When were we competitive with them ? John wall otto porter jr and Brad beal took us to what the second round, with not real hope of winning a chip. That's was prime John wall, over paid otto and while not prime beal still a very good beal. Those really good talents were wasted by eg and his idiot picks and idiot fa signings. But still, you need more than just top picks you need good front office work and asset management .

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

shrug, masai built a championship team with ONE top 10 pick. He inherited DeRozan and Jonas, but the Raptors were very competitive without him. The Wizards have had 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top 10 picks since Gungate. Sure, you *can* do the process to compensate for being bad at drafting and scouting and development, (and even then, Hinkie had a pretty good hit rate), but you can get good without doing so.

when was the last time the wizards were competitive without high draft picks? yes masai did this, but we don't have masai so that's a moot point

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[dckingsfan]

I understand why NY would want to make the trade. Given their defensive rating and aptitude, Beal would make them an immediate contender in the East (IMO).

[dckingsfan]

So about ten teams can beat NYK best offer for beal.

But what would that best offer be. Imo
Well we would be trade beal and Bertans in this trade keep in mind. For,

Barret, quickly, topping, robinson. You can include nittilkina and Brazdeikis if you want they are none factors but young.

Picks

2 2021 firsts dal and NYK, 2 2023 firsts NYK and dal and either

1 more future firsts from nyk
Or
1 2021 second from det 2 2023 seconds from det and utah. 1 2024 second from Utah and 1 2026 around from bucks.

That's probably the very best they can do and I think a few of teams can still beat that! The wizarda still might say all those mid their assets are not enough. Not to mention some fans might argue that's too much from the NYK sode. I'm just saying if they wanted to sell the farm for beal, that's the farm.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

We definitely aren't trading Beal for that package prior to the Trade Deadline.

The only way a New York deal is happening is if they end up with a top 4 pick after the lottery. Then maybe we can work something out.

I think it would be all of this + at least one of NY's draft picks + a player.

2021 first round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas' 2021 1st round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]

2021 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers (swap, New York outgoing)
New York has the right to swap its 2021 1st round pick for the L.A. Clippers' 2021 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyable, then the L.A. Clippers' obligation to New York will be extinguished) [L.A. Clippers-New York-Washington, 2/6/2020]

2021 second round draft pick from Detroit
Detroit's 2021 2nd round pick to New York (via Philadelphia to L.A. Clippers) [Detroit-Philadelphia, 6/21/2018; L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/6/2019; L.A. Clippers-New York-Washington, 2/6/2020]

2023 first round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed a 1st round pick to New York by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]

2023 second round draft pick from Detroit
Detroit's 2023 2nd round pick to New York (via Philadelphia to L.A. Clippers to Minnesota) [Detroit-Philadelphia, 6/21/2018; L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/6/2019; L.A. Clippers-Minnesota, 11/19/2020; Minnesota-New York-Oklahoma City, 11/20/2020]

2023 second round draft pick from Utah
Utah's 2023 2nd round pick to New York [New York-Utah, 11/22/2020]

2024 second round draft pick from Utah or Cleveland (more favorable)
New York will receive the more favorable of Utah's 2024 2nd round pick and Cleveland's 2024 2nd round pick and Indiana will receive the less favorable of the two (via Utah's right to swap for Cleveland) [Cleveland-Sacramento-Utah, 2/8/2018; New York-Utah, 11/22/2020; Brooklyn-Cleveland-Houston-Indiana, 1/16/2021]

2026 second round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota's 2026 2nd round pick to New York [Minnesota-New York, 11/24/2020]

[lastemp3ror]

No chance this team is competitive to get near a conference championship regardless of even if they win another 4 in a row. And we don't have trade ammo to build a contender around Westbrook and Beal. So short turn gains (winning games) are worsening our long-term gains (draft pick positioning). Thus, in my opinion, those of you wanting to do a wait-and-see approach to trading Beal, or waiting until the off-season to trade him, is a bad idea. Plus, his value isn't going to get any higher. And we are one injury away from negating that.

[NatP4]

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

shrug, masai built a championship team with ONE top 10 pick. He inherited DeRozan and Jonas, but the Raptors were very competitive without him. The Wizards have had 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top 10 picks since Gungate. Sure, you *can* do the process to compensate for being bad at drafting and scouting and development, (and even then, Hinkie had a pretty good hit rate), but you can get good without doing so.

when was the last time the wizards were competitive without high draft picks? yes masai did this, but we don't have masai so that's a moot point

Soon.

[payitforward]

Dang! We've won 4 in a row, & people are complaining!

Were we jumping up and down in delight when we were losing pretty much every game we played?

of course people are complaining. NBA purgatory is worst than tanking. Two years in a row picking 9th, and maybe a third. To me, this is the worst possible scenario as a franchise.

shrug, masai built a championship team with ONE top 10 pick. He inherited DeRozan and Jonas, but the Raptors were very competitive without him. The Wizards have had 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top 10 picks since Gungate. Sure, you *can* do the process to compensate for being bad at drafting and scouting and development, (and even then, Hinkie had a pretty good hit rate), but you can get good without doing so.

Agree 100% -- listen to what Chaos Revenant says! -- Toronto has 7 undrafted players & a bunch of guys drafted low. SAS has routinely gotten terrific players low in the draft. Not to mention that we just got Avdija, a terrific prospect, at #9.

It's better to have a high pick, say 1-3, & even better is to have 2 high picks! But, no matter where you pick & no matter what draft, there is a good player available. You just have to be able to recognize the guy.

[TGW]

No chance this team is competitive to get near a conference championship regardless of even if they win another 4 in a row. And we don't have trade ammo to build a contender around Westbrook and Beal. So short turn gains (winning games) are worsening our long-term gains (draft pick positioning). Thus, in my opinion, those of you wanting to do a wait-and-see approach to trading Beal, or waiting until the off-season to trade him, is a bad idea. Plus, his value isn't going to get any higher. And we are one injury away from negating that.

This is what happened with John. Before he got hurt, the Lakers allegedly offered Hart, Ball, and maybe Brandon Ingram/Kuzma for John. That would have made this team EC challengers right now.

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2018/12/5/18126193/john-wall-washington-wizards-los-angeles-lakers-rashomon

Personally I'm not advocating trading Beal now (I think it's wiser to wait until the offseason when we know where the lottery balls land), but you have a point that the longer the Wizards wait, the riskier it gets.

And please stop bringing up Masai and the Raptors. We don't have Masai talent in our front office. We have low-paid stooges who are remnants from the previous failed front office. Just saying "we can do what Toronto and Masai did" is pure fantasy.

[Silvie Lysandra]

And please stop bringing up Masai and the Raptors. We don't have Masai talent in our front office. We have low-paid stooges who are remnants from the previous failed front office. Just saying "we can do what Toronto and Masai did" is pure fantasy.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many high picks you accumulate, if your front office is ****, you'll never win a title. Even if you hit on the picks (and if your front office is ****, you'll draft Marvin Bagley over Luka Donicic more often than not), you won't build a winning team around them, unless you're extraordinarily lucky (for example, the Cavs had 5 top 10 picks in a row prior to drafting a top 2 player of all time, then lost him without winning a title, then only won a title when he CAME BACK to the franchise that failed to win a title without him, after they tanked and got 3 #1 picks in 4 years, one of whom was a HOF PG).

Also considering that we're in the running for Masai, its not as irrelevant as you want to believe. But even aside from that, tanking only works if your front office isn't ****. And even then, the point of tanking is to get players like Bradley Beal. Why trade Bradley Beal, who apparently wants to stay, in order to tank for the chance at getting a player as good as Bradley Beal? And yes, its quite possible one of, or all of Suggs/Cunningham/Mobley will be better than Bradley Beal. But that is by no means a given.

[payitforward]

I love the argument you're making -- hard to believe that you'd make it tho it is. Since you argued exactly the opposite the day before yesterday! ).

Btw, I'm glad to hear that you knew how good Luka Doncic was going to be. Not everybody did. Just as not everybody knows, as you do, that we're "in the running" for Masai Ujiri.

[Silvie Lysandra]

I love the argument you're making -- hard to believe that you'd make it tho it is. Since you argued exactly the opposite the day before yesterday! ).

Your argument was that higher draft picks are not of higher value than lower ones. My argument is that good organizations can still build solid teams around high quality players without high draft picks.

Getting high draft picks means you get better players than the players you get with lower draft picks. However, if you have bad management, getting better players through the draft doesn't matter. Especially since, like I said, you get high draft picks in order to get players like Bradley Beal, so it doesn't make sense to trade him for a chance to maybe get a player as good as Beal. That doesn't mean you're not more likely to get a Bradley Beal with a top 3 pick, but why focus on getting a top 3 pick when *you already have Bradley Beal?*

Not to mention, bad franchises are more likely to get the busts. The Sacramento Kings haven't made the playoffs since 2005. The Dallas Mavericks have won an NBA title and gone to another finals in that span, on top of several other deep playoff appearances. Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett were drafted by the same franchise. So being a bad franchise both makes you more dependent on tanking to get quality players, and lowers the value of tanking, because you're more likely to misuse the resources you get from tanking. So regardless of what strategy you use, there is no way around becoming a good franchise. Good franchises find the Van Vleets and Anoubys. Good franchises pick Luka over Bagley. Good franchise find quality rotation players like Kuzma and Hart, and draft Brandon Ingram instead of Dragan Bender (the Suns are another breathtakingly bad franchise - they either draft awful players, or draft good players and get zero value of them. Suns had a period of relevance because a guy they traded for who the **** knows, decided to come back.

Btw, I'm glad to hear that you knew how good Luka Doncic was going to be. Not everybody did. Just as not everybody knows, as you do, that we're "in the running" for Masai Ujiri.

Bad franchises pay dudes millions of dollars to not know that Luka Doncic was more likely to be a good player than Marvin Bagley. That's the first thing that needs to be fixed before we get into "tank or not tank".

[DCZards]

Also considering that we're in the running for Masai, its not as irrelevant as you want to believe. But even aside from that, tanking only works if your front office isn't ****. And even then, the point of tanking is to get players like Bradley Beal. Why trade Bradley Beal, who apparently wants to stay, in order to tank for the chance at getting a player as good as Bradley Beal? And yes, its quite possible one of, or all of Suggs/Cunningham/Mobley will be better than Bradley Beal. But that is by no means a given.

I understand (and appreciate) the optimism and hopefulness of fans who want to trade Beal for assets and tank for a better draft position. But, as you say, high draft picks don't guarantee that you're going to come away with a game-changing player(s)...or anyone near the all-NBA caliber talent that the Zards already have in Beal.

My basic formula would be:
1. Keep Beal...assuming he commits to staying.
2. Focus on developing the youngins'...especially Rui, Bryant, Deni & Mathews
3. Convince Russ (if possible) to cutdown on the isos and ill-advised jumpers (which he has recently shown he is capable of doing) ...or trade Russ, if possible.
4. Pursue a defensive-oriented, solid rebounding inexpensive vet at the PF or C position in free agency...or via trade
5. Hope that one of the guards currently on the roster (Brown, Mathews, Winston) can replace Neto & Ish as a backup for Beal & Russ
6. Pray for a top 3-4 pick in the 2021 draft..and pick Mobley, Green, Cunningham, Sugg or Kuminga

[pcbothwel]

Not to mention, bad franchises are more likely to get the busts. The Sacramento Kings haven't made the playoffs since 2005. The Dallas Mavericks have won an NBA title and gone to another finals in that span, on top of several other deep playoff appearances. Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett were drafted by the same franchise. So being a bad franchise both makes you more dependent on tanking to get quality players, and lowers the value of tanking, because you're more likely to misuse the resources you get from tanking. So regardless of what strategy you use, there is no way around becoming a good franchise. Good franchises find the Van Vleets and Anoubys. Good franchises pick Luka over Bagley. Good franchise find quality rotation players like Kuzma and Hart, and draft Brandon Ingram instead of Dragan Bender (the Suns are another breathtakingly bad franchise - they either draft awful players, or draft good players and get zero value of them. Suns had a period of relevance because a guy they traded for who the **** knows, decided to come back.

Agree with quite a bit, but the above is misleading.
LAL had the 2nd pick two years in a row and appearing to be laughable on the court and in the front office. But then the GOAT decides to just up and sign there. They werent a good franchise, but simply the Lakers and Lebron wanted to be in LA.
In fact, they drafted poorly enough that they had to include multiple future picks, both #2 picks, and solid filler in order to get AD...who stated he was going to LAL no matter what and was in the last year of his contract. The reason they gave up both Ball and Ingram is because both were underperforming.
They drafted Ingram instead of Jaylen Brown and Jamal Murray also. Both players who were outperforming Ingram easily. They drafted Ball over Tatum, Fox, Isaac, Bam, and Mitchell. If they drafted better then they probably could of given up less to NOP.

GSW is considered a great franchise, but they have struck out a ton Steph Curry is the only reason they matter. From 2016 until now they have continually struck out in the draft to help provide ancillary pieces around Steph. Taking Damian Jones over Zubac and Brogdan. Taking Jacob Evans over Spellman, Brunson, Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent, and even Bonga. And now Wiseman over Ball. Overpaying to keep Klay and Green. We could go on.

GSW isnt great, Steph is. They won 23% of their games last year and are pacing at about 52% this year. The only difference is Wardell S. Curry. In fact, they down graded in that last year they had WCS, Alec Burks, and Glenn Robinson and have replaced them with Oubre, Wanamaker, and Bazemore.

Now, you did mention Toronto who you would right about. Same with the Spurs.

[nate33]

GSW is considered a great franchise, but they have struck out a ton Steph Curry is the only reason they matter. From 2016 until now they have continually struck out in the draft to help provide ancillary pieces around Steph. Taking Damian Jones over Zubac and Brogdan. Taking Jacob Evans over Spellman, Brunson, Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent, and even Bonga. And now Wiseman over Ball. Overpaying to keep Klay and Green. We could go on.

C'mon now. You can't just gloss over them drafting Klay at #11, Draymond at #34, and Barnes at #7. (Barnes turned out to be the best player left in the first round with the arguable exceptions of Drummond and Tobias Harris.)

Looney at #30 was pretty good value. So was Damian Jones. Getting a rotation player at #30 is nothing to scoff at. Yeah, there were a couple guys better found later, but that's almost always the case. Dozens of GMs missed on Brogdan and Zubac.

They blew the 2018 pick, but so did the next 4 teams after them. Picks that late are a crapshoot.

And they didn't overpay for Klay and Green. They did what you had to do with the way the CBA works. When you are over the cap, you are choosing between letting a guy walk and having nobody, or paying him what he wants (or what you think he can get on the market). The alternative is to leave Curry with no good teammates.

[doclinkin]

C'mon now. You can't just gloss over them drafting Klay at #11, Draymond at #34, and Barnes at #7. (Barnes turned out to be the best player left in the first round with the arguable exceptions of Drummond and Tobias Harris.)

Looney at #30 was pretty good value. So was Damian Jones.

Of course Jerry West left the Warriors in 2017, so...