Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[Pentele]

It will be interesting to see if Lauri "gets with the program" when he comes back. If he doesn't help on defense or pass on offense, he is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

As a last note, the Bulls are running the same set virtually every possession. They are running plays for no one. Its just continuing movement and picks. They only run plays for Lavine at end of quarter / games. Wanting plays set up for him is a continuing request from Lauri supporters but we see that isn't necessary or optimal. He just needs to fit in.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see. I agree that Lauri absolutely has to fit into a team concept when the team has the concept worth fitting into. With Boylen, that was not the case. Even then, I think Lauri tried to do exactly what the coach required him to do even if he didn't have all the necessary tools to do so (I wager Boylen was demanding even more from Lauri on defense - i.e. besides blitzing that he managed quite well I think - even if his offensive schemes were rubbish). With Donovan and the team's current trajectory, the onus is clearly on Lauri to fit in. The FebruLauri period should give us all some hope that it is not actually impossible for Lauri to be a part in roughly that type of offense. The ball was moving very well back then.

[coldfish]

As I've proposed before--let's play a game:

Would you like to have a player that:
* Scores 20 per game in only 30 min
* Scores super efficiently (65% TS) on a high volume of 3s
* Finishes at an elite level at the rim (70%+)
* Plays off-ball and does not require high usage, so fits very well with your young scoring star who does require 1st option usage
* Plays average team D
* Is the best man-to-man defender among the team's bigs

The above is like all-star Zach's perfect side-kick.

Some people here tend to have mutually exclusive standards for Lauri--"we want him to be Dirk on O, and Gobert on D, and pay him $15M because... crickets"... and because he's neither Dirk on O, nor Rudy on D, "ship his posterior out of town", even though he was the Bulls' best player to start the year (before Zach got his rhythm) and was the second best player, and best big defender after that.

Be mindful of what you're gifted because the grass ain't always greener on the other side.

His one legit downside is his health--and it's also the reason the Bulls can probably lock him up for 18-22, rather than the rookie max, because any player fitting the criteria listed above, if healthy, would be getting a rookie max or close it.

Don't let him NOT living up to super-star expectations cloud the fact that we have one of the most efficient, high-volume scorers in the NBA already on the team.

He's already made big strides on D this year under coach D. If he adds being a GOOD team defender to being the best man-defender on the Bulls frontline, he'll be a bargain at 20. If you think he can't keep up his offensive production under coach D, that's a different story, but I don't see why he can't.

I disagree on your assessment of him.

First off, his off ball defense used to be a 0 on a 0-10 scale. He didn't do it at all, almost always staying with his man and ignoring open people. He never helped the helper. This year he started doing it but he still is behind the rest of the team. I would give him a 2 or a 3. His pick and roll defense is also terrible and its well beyond just the drop defense. Teams have specifically picked on him at times knowing that they can get an easy bucket out of it.

You didn't mention his passing. His assist rate stands at 4.3%, easily the worst on the team. Playing on a free flowing team like Chicago, that's pretty difficult to do. For gosh sake Felicio has a 16% assist rate this year. There is a reason why, despite his shooting, the team is better on offense when he is out of the game. Part of its him playing with Coby but another part is the fact that he is the *only* guy on the team who doesn't move the ball.

At the end of the day, his shooting is nice. I don't think he needs to do everything well to be effective. That's not a fair standard. That said, every other phase of the game for Lauri is substandard. The only thing he brings is off ball shooting. Defense, passing, shot creation, rebounding, etc. are all poor to outright bad. As a result, when you have him on the floor everyone else has to go through gyrations to cover for his deficiencies which his shooting simply doesn't make up for.

Hopefully when he gets back he gets with the program and starts to help on defense and pass on offense. If he does, he will be a real asset. If he doesn't, I wouldn't bring him back.

[chefo]

As I've proposed before--let's play a game:

Would you like to have a player that:
* Scores 20 per game in only 30 min
* Scores super efficiently (65% TS) on a high volume of 3s
* Finishes at an elite level at the rim (70%+)
* Plays off-ball and does not require high usage, so fits very well with your young scoring star who does require 1st option usage
* Plays average team D
* Is the best man-to-man defender among the team's bigs

The above is like all-star Zach's perfect side-kick.

Some people here tend to have mutually exclusive standards for Lauri--"we want him to be Dirk on O, and Gobert on D, and pay him $15M because... crickets"... and because he's neither Dirk on O, nor Rudy on D, "ship his posterior out of town", even though he was the Bulls' best player to start the year (before Zach got his rhythm) and was the second best player, and best big defender after that.

Be mindful of what you're gifted because the grass ain't always greener on the other side.

His one legit downside is his health--and it's also the reason the Bulls can probably lock him up for 18-22, rather than the rookie max, because any player fitting the criteria listed above, if healthy, would be getting a rookie max or close it.

Don't let him NOT living up to super-star expectations cloud the fact that we have one of the most efficient, high-volume scorers in the NBA already on the team.

He's already made big strides on D this year under coach D. If he adds being a GOOD team defender to being the best man-defender on the Bulls frontline, he'll be a bargain at 20. If you think he can't keep up his offensive production under coach D, that's a different story, but I don't see why he can't.

I would be 100% all-in on wanting the guy you talk about, except you forgot the * that says "Plays in 70% of games". I let myself be fooled with similar "on paper" points about how Otto is a great get too.

As I said--that'll be factored in how much he'll get paid because a healthy Lauri who plays as well as he did this year would cost 30 on average over his next contract. Besides, he's not Otto bad on health--Otto has played in what? 45 games all-in for the Bulls over 3 years? Otto, BTW is such a sad story--guy is such a positive player when he can lace them up healthy. Sad his body just broke down on him in his mid 20s.

[Tetlak]

Please, get him back into the lineup so we can show him off for a trade.

I've said it all along and I'll say it until the day I die:

Lauri does not fit the modern NBA, and he is extremely replaceable. This is a smallball era where everyone can shoot. You can just plug a wing in to Lauri's spot and get better offense + defense, as we're seeing with an inconsistent rookie P. Will. On that note, the dude can't take advantage of smaller players, and gets taken advantage of by them on the other end.

He's a good guy, but he ain't it. Our resources can be allocated more wisely.

[TSS]

Two of the things that I have brought up in complaining about Lauri are his lack of help defense and his lack of passing. With him being out for several weeks, I hope people have noticed that the ball moves around like a ping pong ball on offense and on defense, people help the helper constantly. The results have been great.

I don't blame Lauri for single handedly pulling down the defense or stalling the offense. Its clear that the team has been learning the help defense and learning to share the ball and its just continued to get better over the course of the season.

It will be interesting to see if Lauri "gets with the program" when he comes back. If he doesn't help on defense or pass on offense, he is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

As a last note, the Bulls are running the same set virtually every possession. They are running plays for no one. Its just continuing movement and picks. They only run plays for Lavine at end of quarter / games. Wanting plays set up for him is a continuing request from Lauri supporters but we see that isn't necessary or optimal. He just needs to fit in.

I have seen similar improvements in Bulls play but my interpretation of the underlying reasons is entirely different. To me there is three main reasons explaining better ball movement lately and none of those involve Lauri.

1. Coby no longer "runs" the offense and team has Satoransky getting back to playing shape
2. Bulls has been mostly playing rather bad teams
3. Team is learning what BD system is about, player and ball movement

What comes to Lauri needing plays, I do not agree. He just needs ability to play his game which BD offense allows and facilitates - very much unlike Boylens. Lots of movement without ball and green light to attack the rim.

I can see the need for improvement in passing on Lauris behalf and - much more importantly - the ability to stay on court.
To me his Bulls future comes down to money. He can be a really good piece next to Lavine if Bulls do not need to overpay. I certainly root for him to sign here at something like 15$ and give the team a chance to sign other folks as well. I've grown quite fond of following this young Bulls group and would rather continue doing that as opposed to following someone else throwing too much money at Lauri.

[Indomitable]

As I've proposed before--let's play a game:

Would you like to have a player that:
* Scores 20 per game in only 30 min
* Scores super efficiently (65% TS) on a high volume of 3s
* Finishes at an elite level at the rim (70%+)
* Plays off-ball and does not require high usage, so fits very well with your young scoring star who does require 1st option usage
* Plays average team D
* Is the best man-to-man defender among the team's bigs

The above is like all-star Zach's perfect side-kick.

Some people here tend to have mutually exclusive standards for Lauri--"we want him to be Dirk on O, and Gobert on D, and pay him $15M because... crickets"... and because he's neither Dirk on O, nor Rudy on D, "ship his posterior out of town", even though he was the Bulls' best player to start the year (before Zach got his rhythm) and was the second best player, and best big defender after that.

Be mindful of what you're gifted because the grass ain't always greener on the other side.

His one legit downside is his health--and it's also the reason the Bulls can probably lock him up for 18-22, rather than the rookie max, because any player fitting the criteria listed above, if healthy, would be getting a rookie max or close it.

Don't let him NOT living up to super-star expectations cloud the fact that we have one of the most efficient, high-volume scorers in the NBA already on the team.

He's already made big strides on D this year under coach D. If he adds being a GOOD team defender to being the best man-defender on the Bulls frontline, he'll be a bargain at 20. If you think he can't keep up his offensive production under coach D, that's a different story, but I don't see why he can't.

I disagree on your assessment of him.

First off, his off ball defense used to be a 0 on a 0-10 scale. He didn't do it at all, almost always staying with his man and ignoring open people. He never helped the helper. This year he started doing it but he still is behind the rest of the team. I would give him a 2 or a 3. His pick and roll defense is also terrible and its well beyond just the drop defense. Teams have specifically picked on him at times knowing that they can get an easy bucket out of it.

You didn't mention his passing. His assist rate stands at 4.3%, easily the worst on the team. Playing on a free flowing team like Chicago, that's pretty difficult to do. For gosh sake Felicio has a 16% assist rate this year. There is a reason why, despite his shooting, the team is better on offense when he is out of the game. Part of its him playing with Coby but another part is the fact that he is the *only* guy on the team who doesn't move the ball.

At the end of the day, his shooting is nice. I don't think he needs to do everything well to be effective. That's not a fair standard. That said, every other phase of the game for Lauri is substandard. The only thing he brings is off ball shooting. Defense, passing, shot creation, rebounding, etc. are all poor to outright bad. As a result, when you have him on the floor everyone else has to go through gyrations to cover for his deficiencies which his shooting simply doesn't make up for.

Hopefully when he gets back he gets with the program and starts to help on defense and pass on offense. If he does, he will be a real asset. If he doesn't, I wouldn't bring him back.

I miss Otto and Hutch more. Hutch does silly stuf, but he also deflects the ball. Hutch actually helps on defense.

Otto when healthy is a player. It we got 80 percent of that guy from 2 years ago. We would be a top 6 seed.

[the ultimates]

The thing that's frustrating isn't even Lauri. We clearly see what he is and what he isn't. Some though continue to make excuses saying he needs more shots, the Bulls guards are bad and Lavine is somehow holding him back. If they feel he still has that potential ok but why isn't that benefit given to other Bulls young players? Those same people will piss on Coby White in his second year (is Coby White a bust). They do the same to WCJ (is Gafford better than Carter).

Thank you, this is the biggest issue.

One set of rules for Lauri and a completely different set for others who have been in the league for a lesser time.

(This post refers to both quotes above as you can see by the issues covered. There is no need to take anything personally as I am trying to talk about a general issue)

To me, it seems that there are a couple of posters who have gone a bit overboard with finding reasons for why Lauri is not succesfull. I think the vast majority are quite cognizant of the fact that Lauri has been missing games too much, and that has to count against him in the overall evaluation. It is also generally acknowledged that he does not bring much to the table on the defensive end. Where people differ quite a lot is how much room they perceive there is still for Lauri to develop. I think that is a reasonable disagreement since we are talking about young athletes after all.

I cannot comment on that Coby White is a bust discussion (as I am not sure that I have even opened that thread more than a couple of times) but is there really a legion of Lauri's fierce supporters who are arguing unreasonably against Coby? Or just one or two? For what is worth, I think Coby is a very likable player who is in a very tough spot when playing as a pg. I do not think that he is going to be a good pg, but then again, who knows. All I know is that he is currently much more useful to the team off the ball. But a bust? It is certainly much too early to tell. Right now, definitely not.

About excuses. It is true that there were a lot of people saying, last year, that Boylen's system does not fit Lauri. I remember people calling it an excuse back then. Well, how about that, we all can now see what an utter failure Boylen's stint as a head coach was. So there has been this narrative going on for some time that people are finding excuses for Lauri, but as it turns out, those alleged excuses turned to be quite correct. Another thing that is often labelled as an "excuse" is the on-going, and a bit frustrating, discussion about Lauri's lack of creation. When people say that bigs are not typically creators, they are right. It is not an excuse. Are some people finding genuine excuses for Lauri's deficiencies. Yes, I could name two posters, but everyone else falls under a normal, even if sometimes heated, forum discussion.

And now that we are finding blame in people participating in discussing Lauri's game, what should we think of the utter lack of reflection when some are clamoring for a player like Collins as a piece that fills the gaps Lauri has in his game? It is of course only one example. The general point is this: You cannot tell me with a straight face that debating Lauri's usefullness is not lopsided on the both sides of the argument? Sure, there are many reasonable takes - I think on the both "sides" - but there are also utter trash comments, or some that have no basis in reality. Although I am a new poster, I have lurked here a lot, and it is easy to perceive something shifting here, even if Lauri himself has played as well as ever (is his play enough? it is reasonable to argue it is not, but I am not referring to that aspect). Maybe people are frustrated to some vocal posters, and they project that to their evaluations, I do not know. Yet the truth of the matter appears to be that the discussion around Lauri is skewed to many directions. Maybe it tells us something about the high hopes we all have or had regarding him, and that adds to emotional strain of a sports fan.

Perhaps it is time to reflect on how to continue from here (if someone found time to actually read what I wrote). But then again, it does not matter much what we say here. I think it is also ok to vent one's frustrations, that is what the internet is for, eh? It is only that the excuse narrative that has developed especially during the last two seasons is quite unfair, I think.

This thread is 40 pages and counting based largely on the irrationality of those few Lauri diehards.

Offensively how is Donovan using Lauri any different than Boylen was? Lauri is getting one more shot per game this season. He's still used as primarily as pick and pop big who rarely rolls to the basket. He's driving a little more and finishing considerably better but I don't think Boylen was telling him not to put the ball on the floor. Now WCJ has seen his role in the offense change. He was primarily a screener and diver in Boylen's system. Donovan has him do that as well as flash to the foul line, elbow area to facilitate ball movement and Carter will look to score if he pass isn't there and he'll post up and get the ball, particularly against mismatches. Young has seen his game open up in the offense as well doing the same things Carter does but even better.

As far as Collins goes he's misused instead of Lauri. Atlanta's offense is predicated around spreading the floor or pick and roll for Trae Young who last year had a usage percentage higher than Lavine and currently has one higher. Collins is going to set screens for Trae so he'll get the ball either popping or rolling. Look at the game against the Bulls or any Hawks game it's all Trae all the time. Now both Collins and Lauri have injury issues and neither are defenders but I think the consensus around the league is Collins can actually have offense run through him and create unlike Lauri.

For shot creation we have league were guys 6'9 and taller are the primary ball handlers on pick and roll, can lead the break and get to the rim at will in the halfcourt. Now you can say that was expecting too much of Lauri and that's cool. We also have league where you can run a simple pick and roll get a switch for your seven-footer and he'll score over the smaller defender or draw a help defender. Those are things Lauri doesn't do. The Lauri defenders will say he has guard/small forward skills and in the same breath say he needs to be setup. If he actually had those skills he wouldn't need others to get him looks particularly from three.

[coldfish]

Two of the things that I have brought up in complaining about Lauri are his lack of help defense and his lack of passing. With him being out for several weeks, I hope people have noticed that the ball moves around like a ping pong ball on offense and on defense, people help the helper constantly. The results have been great.

I don't blame Lauri for single handedly pulling down the defense or stalling the offense. Its clear that the team has been learning the help defense and learning to share the ball and its just continued to get better over the course of the season.

It will be interesting to see if Lauri "gets with the program" when he comes back. If he doesn't help on defense or pass on offense, he is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

As a last note, the Bulls are running the same set virtually every possession. They are running plays for no one. Its just continuing movement and picks. They only run plays for Lavine at end of quarter / games. Wanting plays set up for him is a continuing request from Lauri supporters but we see that isn't necessary or optimal. He just needs to fit in.

I have seen similar improvements in Bulls play but my interpretation of the underlying reasons is entirely different. To me there is three main reasons explaining better ball movement lately and none of those involve Lauri.

1. Coby no longer "runs" the offense and team has Satoransky getting back to playing shape
2. Bulls has been mostly playing rather bad teams
3. Team is learning what BD system is about, player and ball movement

What comes to Lauri needing plays, I do not agree. He just needs ability to play his game which BD offense allows and facilitates - very much unlike Boylens. Lots of movement without ball and green light to attack the rim.

I can see the need for improvement in passing on Lauris behalf and - much more importantly - the ability to stay on court.
To me his Bulls future comes down to money. He can be a really good piece next to Lavine if Bulls do not need to overpay. I certainly root for him to sign here at something like 15$ and give the team a chance to sign other folks as well. I've grown quite fond of following this young Bulls group and would rather continue doing that as opposed to following someone else throwing too much money at Lauri.

Just have to note the bolded.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Lauri is consistent in making points and rebounds 19/6. Lauri is above average shooter for position, 3 threes per game. Lauri is better defender than Carter so called anchor of defense and Young so called defensive stopper. Just look those two against Randle and Embiid. Lauri is playing with backcourt with least basketball iq and playmaking talent with worst perimeter defense. Really hoping for trade in good team with pointguard and structure and him to blossom, which would certinaly happend just to show those incompetent fans who knew very little about basketball who is he as player. And i will came after that and said i told you so.

I'm also really hoping he is traded to a team that values his abilities and feels strongly that he will blossom in their system. Oh, and that this trade will net the Bulls some worthwhile pieces to help this team move forward and plug the gaping hole that will be left behind when he is working somewhere else in a few weeks.

Team seems to be playing about the same sans Lauri as with him. He probably has more value to a contender as a role playing 4th option than he does in Chicago and hopefully he gets moved for some value.

I think you caught my sarcasm but maybe should have green fonted this.

Lauri is ready to plug in to a role for a contender. He may do well in that role. If the Bulls can get assets they should go for it because I do like how the team is playing without him and think it's better to avoid angst over his contract and future role/commitment.

[TSS]

Point taken, I should have said "somewhat different" as opposed to "entirely different"

[chefo]

As I've proposed before--let's play a game:

Would you like to have a player that:
* Scores 20 per game in only 30 min
* Scores super efficiently (65% TS) on a high volume of 3s
* Finishes at an elite level at the rim (70%+)
* Plays off-ball and does not require high usage, so fits very well with your young scoring star who does require 1st option usage
* Plays average team D
* Is the best man-to-man defender among the team's bigs

The above is like all-star Zach's perfect side-kick.

Some people here tend to have mutually exclusive standards for Lauri--"we want him to be Dirk on O, and Gobert on D, and pay him $15M because... crickets"... and because he's neither Dirk on O, nor Rudy on D, "ship his posterior out of town", even though he was the Bulls' best player to start the year (before Zach got his rhythm) and was the second best player, and best big defender after that.

Be mindful of what you're gifted because the grass ain't always greener on the other side.

His one legit downside is his health--and it's also the reason the Bulls can probably lock him up for 18-22, rather than the rookie max, because any player fitting the criteria listed above, if healthy, would be getting a rookie max or close it.

Don't let him NOT living up to super-star expectations cloud the fact that we have one of the most efficient, high-volume scorers in the NBA already on the team.

He's already made big strides on D this year under coach D. If he adds being a GOOD team defender to being the best man-defender on the Bulls frontline, he'll be a bargain at 20. If you think he can't keep up his offensive production under coach D, that's a different story, but I don't see why he can't.

I disagree on your assessment of him.

First off, his off ball defense used to be a 0 on a 0-10 scale. He didn't do it at all, almost always staying with his man and ignoring open people. He never helped the helper. This year he started doing it but he still is behind the rest of the team. I would give him a 2 or a 3. His pick and roll defense is also terrible and its well beyond just the drop defense. Teams have specifically picked on him at times knowing that they can get an easy bucket out of it.

You didn't mention his passing. His assist rate stands at 4.3%, easily the worst on the team. Playing on a free flowing team like Chicago, that's pretty difficult to do. For gosh sake Felicio has a 16% assist rate this year. There is a reason why, despite his shooting, the team is better on offense when he is out of the game. Part of its him playing with Coby but another part is the fact that he is the *only* guy on the team who doesn't move the ball.

At the end of the day, his shooting is nice. I don't think he needs to do everything well to be effective. That's not a fair standard. That said, every other phase of the game for Lauri is substandard. The only thing he brings is off ball shooting. Defense, passing, shot creation, rebounding, etc. are all poor to outright bad. As a result, when you have him on the floor everyone else has to go through gyrations to cover for his deficiencies which his shooting simply doesn't make up for.

Hopefully when he gets back he gets with the program and starts to help on defense and pass on offense. If he does, he will be a real asset. If he doesn't, I wouldn't bring him back.

We'll have to agree to disagree on some of these points:

* His help defense wasn't any worse than any of other bigs, including WCJ and Thad. The first 20 games it was a lauyp line no matter who was in. I would argue WCJ was materially worse than Lauri at playing help D... because he was a near 0 as you put it while Lauri was a 3. Thad, if he could not get a charge straight up used to let people get open layups on him as well. WCJ remembered how to play help D, as the whole team got better--you are arguing that Lauri would not have gotten better alongside the rest of the crew, despite showing a pretty big improvement there from last year--yeah, you may argue he went from a 0 to a 3, but WCJ went from a 0 to 6 as he got better with time this year alone.

* Lauri is a better man-to-man defender than both WCJ and Thad, mostly because these two are tiny for front-court players. The ONLY time Randolph and AD had trouble scoring on us when Lauri manned them up. They straight up abused Gafford and Thad. He even guarded Dame well on 2-3 possessions when he was switched onto him. There's not another 'big' on the roster, including PaW and Thad that can do that currently. I'm not even mentioning WCJ who seems to have cement feet the last couple of years.

* On passing--I agree, but to a point. His job is to finish plays. He doesn't dribble, or hold up the ball. He shoots and drives as an end-point of a possession, and he's doing it an absolutely elite rate. He's not dribbling the air out of the ball to get his like Coby did to start the year. There is no player outside of Zach who Lauri should be giving up shots to because, by definition, the result would be statistically inferior. Here's how Lauri's most recent 30-point games came about: Zach gets doubled, passes to Thad. Lauri either spots up for an open 3, or Lauri cuts and get a pass for a layup/dunk. Repeat again and again. That's beautiful ball, no matter how you look at it. In context, he's finishing at 75% at the rim and 40% on his 3s. You don't want him passing these shots up so that Denzel or Temple can launch a shot. They are shots within the system--he's not breaking the flow of the game for the team as a whole.

* See above for shot creation--why do you need him to create for others? You've got Zach, Thad and Sato kicking ass in that department lately. No need for another guy to be creating just for the sake of creating. He's been elite at finishing possessions--let him continue doing that. In the end, no matter how well the ball moves--somebody has to put it in the hoop. That's like complaining that prime Suns Amare wasn't creating for others--it didn't matter.

* He's an off-ball player and for some reason, maybe because we had two of the best ever on-ball players in Scottie and MJ, we don't seem to value a guy that can score very well with barely touching the rock. You can't leave him open to help all game or else he'd drop 30 on your posterior, like he was starting to do regularly.

Overall, if he continues to improve on D and stays healthy, he's a player that's almost the perfect second banana to me. His flaws are consistent with him being a second banana. And, BTW, second bananas usually make maxes in the current NBA, so, health permitting, you'll probably have him for a bargain.

[Pentele]

Offensively how is Donovan using Lauri any different than Boylen was? Lauri is getting one more shot per game this season. He's still used as primarily as pick and pop big who rarely rolls to the basket. He's driving a little more and finishing considerably better but I don't think Boylen was telling him not to put the ball on the floor. Now WCJ has seen his role in the offense change. He was primarily a screener and diver in Boylen's system. Donovan has him do that as well as flash to the foul line, elbow area to facilitate ball movement and Carter will look to score if he pass isn't there and he'll post up and get the ball, particularly against mismatches. Young has seen his game open up in the offense as well doing the same things Carter does but even better.

As far as Collins goes he's misused instead of Lauri. Atlanta's offense is predicated around spreading the floor or pick and roll for Trae Young who last year had a usage percentage higher than Lavine and currently has one higher. Collins is going to set screens for Trae so he'll get the ball either popping or rolling. Look at the game against the Bulls or any Hawks game it's all Trae all the time. Now both Collins and Lauri have injury issues and neither are defenders but I think the consensus around the league is Collins can actually have offense run through him and create unlike Lauri.

I assume that "using Lauri" is to be understood broadly, i.e. to involve his place in the overall scheme. I think you came close to one reason why there is a marked difference between this and last year: the other big is not clogging the lane/in the way to the basket the same way. I do not know why exactly that is the case (Wendell constantly diving to the basket certainly played a role), but I think there is now much more room for Lauri. Perhaps the biggest reason is the overall ball movement that has improved dramatically. Lauri is not capable of forcing the issue by driving to the basket against a defender (especially smaller) when they are set and do not have to adjust to ball movement. Another reason was that Lauri was pretty much relegated to being the spacer. I do not buy that he just floated there willingly or by being lazy etc. The best Lauri is Lauri on the move, and we have seen that much more this season.

Yeah, Collins could very well be misused. And I did not meant to imply that he and Lauri would be on par (frankly, I have not watched enough Collins to say much about it). But my point was exactly that the things that Lauri is most and constantly criticized about, are also flaws with Collins. So, if one is focusing solely on creation, fair enough, there is by all likelihood an argument to be made that Collins is a better creator. But when we are talking about Lauri's real utility as the player he is, or the contract he is worth, the biggest obstacles by far are the defensive ability and the injury history. If one brings up Collins as a superior alternative in that regard, there is plenty of reason to wonder why that argument is made in the first place or whether one is simply grasping for any unfavorable comparison to Lauri.

[coldfish]

As I've proposed before--let's play a game:

Would you like to have a player that:
* Scores 20 per game in only 30 min
* Scores super efficiently (65% TS) on a high volume of 3s
* Finishes at an elite level at the rim (70%+)
* Plays off-ball and does not require high usage, so fits very well with your young scoring star who does require 1st option usage
* Plays average team D
* Is the best man-to-man defender among the team's bigs

The above is like all-star Zach's perfect side-kick.

Some people here tend to have mutually exclusive standards for Lauri--"we want him to be Dirk on O, and Gobert on D, and pay him $15M because... crickets"... and because he's neither Dirk on O, nor Rudy on D, "ship his posterior out of town", even though he was the Bulls' best player to start the year (before Zach got his rhythm) and was the second best player, and best big defender after that.

Be mindful of what you're gifted because the grass ain't always greener on the other side.

His one legit downside is his health--and it's also the reason the Bulls can probably lock him up for 18-22, rather than the rookie max, because any player fitting the criteria listed above, if healthy, would be getting a rookie max or close it.

Don't let him NOT living up to super-star expectations cloud the fact that we have one of the most efficient, high-volume scorers in the NBA already on the team.

He's already made big strides on D this year under coach D. If he adds being a GOOD team defender to being the best man-defender on the Bulls frontline, he'll be a bargain at 20. If you think he can't keep up his offensive production under coach D, that's a different story, but I don't see why he can't.

I disagree on your assessment of him.

First off, his off ball defense used to be a 0 on a 0-10 scale. He didn't do it at all, almost always staying with his man and ignoring open people. He never helped the helper. This year he started doing it but he still is behind the rest of the team. I would give him a 2 or a 3. His pick and roll defense is also terrible and its well beyond just the drop defense. Teams have specifically picked on him at times knowing that they can get an easy bucket out of it.

You didn't mention his passing. His assist rate stands at 4.3%, easily the worst on the team. Playing on a free flowing team like Chicago, that's pretty difficult to do. For gosh sake Felicio has a 16% assist rate this year. There is a reason why, despite his shooting, the team is better on offense when he is out of the game. Part of its him playing with Coby but another part is the fact that he is the *only* guy on the team who doesn't move the ball.

At the end of the day, his shooting is nice. I don't think he needs to do everything well to be effective. That's not a fair standard. That said, every other phase of the game for Lauri is substandard. The only thing he brings is off ball shooting. Defense, passing, shot creation, rebounding, etc. are all poor to outright bad. As a result, when you have him on the floor everyone else has to go through gyrations to cover for his deficiencies which his shooting simply doesn't make up for.

Hopefully when he gets back he gets with the program and starts to help on defense and pass on offense. If he does, he will be a real asset. If he doesn't, I wouldn't bring him back.

We'll have to agree to disagree on some of these points:

* His help defense wasn't any worse than any of other bigs, including WCJ and Thad. The first 20 games it was a lauyp line no matter who was in. I would argue WCJ was materially worse than Lauri at playing help D... because he was a near 0 as you put it while Lauri was a 3. Thad, if he could not get a charge straight up used to let people get open layups on him as well. WCJ remembered how to play help D, as the whole team got better--you are arguing that Lauri would not have gotten better alongside the rest of the crew, despite showing a pretty big improvement there from last year--yeah, you may argue he went from a 0 to a 3, but WCJ went from a 0 to 6 as he got better with time this year alone.

* Lauri is a better man-to-man defender than both WCJ and Thad, mostly because these two are tiny for front-court players. The ONLY time Randolph and AD had trouble scoring on us when Lauri manned them up. They straight up abused Gafford and Thad. He even guarded Dame well on 2-3 possessions when he was switched onto him. There's not another 'big' on the roster, including PaW and Thad that can do that currently. I'm not even mentioning WCJ who seems to have cement feet the last couple of years.

* On passing--I agree, but to a point. His job is to finish plays. He doesn't dribble, or hold up the ball. He shoots and drives as an end-point of a possession, and he's doing it an absolutely elite rate. He's not dribbling the air out of the ball to get his like Coby did to start the year. There is no player outside of Zach who Lauri should be giving up shots to because, by definition, the result would be statistically inferior. Here's how Lauri's most recent 30-point games came about: Zach gets doubled, passes to Thad. Lauri either spots up for an open 3, or Lauri cuts and get a pass for a layup/dunk. Repeat again and again. That's beautiful ball, no matter how you look at it. In context, he's finishing at 75% at the rim and 40% on his 3s. You don't want him passing these shots up so that Denzel or Temple can launch a shot. They are shots within the system--he's not breaking the flow of the game for the team as a whole.

* See above for shot creation--why do you need him to create for others? You've got Zach, Thad and Sato kicking ass in that department lately. No need for another guy to be creating just for the sake of creating. He's been elite at finishing possessions--let him continue doing that. In the end, no matter how well the ball moves--somebody has to put it in the hoop. That's like complaining that prime Suns Amare wasn't creating for others--it didn't matter.

* He's an off-ball player and for some reason, maybe because we had two of the best ever on-ball players in Scottie and MJ, we don't seem to value a guy that can score very well with barely touching the rock. You can't leave him open to help all game or else he'd drop 30 on your posterior, like he was starting to do regularly.

Overall, if he continues to improve on D and stays healthy, he's a player that's almost the perfect second banana to me. His flaws are consistent with him being a second banana. And, BTW, second bananas usually make maxes in the current NBA, so, health permitting, you'll probably have him for a bargain.

We see something different.

Instead of continuing a back and forth, I'll compliment you for replying to me in an intelligent fashion without letting the disagreement get personal. Kudos to you and I'll let it drop at that.

[Louri]

Other fans after team is starting to get it:

"New coach, new system. It takes time to get used to a new system. It's team sport after all. Wendell even said "he has never played a predominantly drop defense in his basketball career. He takes a great deal of responsibility for Bulls' defensive woes."

Bulls fans after team is starting to get it:

"HA, see they are immediately better after Markkanen is injured. It was obviously all on Lauri."

[PaKii94]

I disagree on your assessment of him.

First off, his off ball defense used to be a 0 on a 0-10 scale. He didn't do it at all, almost always staying with his man and ignoring open people. He never helped the helper. This year he started doing it but he still is behind the rest of the team. I would give him a 2 or a 3. His pick and roll defense is also terrible and its well beyond just the drop defense. Teams have specifically picked on him at times knowing that they can get an easy bucket out of it.

You didn't mention his passing. His assist rate stands at 4.3%, easily the worst on the team. Playing on a free flowing team like Chicago, that's pretty difficult to do. For gosh sake Felicio has a 16% assist rate this year. There is a reason why, despite his shooting, the team is better on offense when he is out of the game. Part of its him playing with Coby but another part is the fact that he is the *only* guy on the team who doesn't move the ball.

At the end of the day, his shooting is nice. I don't think he needs to do everything well to be effective. That's not a fair standard. That said, every other phase of the game for Lauri is substandard. The only thing he brings is off ball shooting. Defense, passing, shot creation, rebounding, etc. are all poor to outright bad. As a result, when you have him on the floor everyone else has to go through gyrations to cover for his deficiencies which his shooting simply doesn't make up for.

Hopefully when he gets back he gets with the program and starts to help on defense and pass on offense. If he does, he will be a real asset. If he doesn't, I wouldn't bring him back.

We'll have to agree to disagree on some of these points:

* His help defense wasn't any worse than any of other bigs, including WCJ and Thad. The first 20 games it was a lauyp line no matter who was in. I would argue WCJ was materially worse than Lauri at playing help D... because he was a near 0 as you put it while Lauri was a 3. Thad, if he could not get a charge straight up used to let people get open layups on him as well. WCJ remembered how to play help D, as the whole team got better--you are arguing that Lauri would not have gotten better alongside the rest of the crew, despite showing a pretty big improvement there from last year--yeah, you may argue he went from a 0 to a 3, but WCJ went from a 0 to 6 as he got better with time this year alone.

* Lauri is a better man-to-man defender than both WCJ and Thad, mostly because these two are tiny for front-court players. The ONLY time Randolph and AD had trouble scoring on us when Lauri manned them up. They straight up abused Gafford and Thad. He even guarded Dame well on 2-3 possessions when he was switched onto him. There's not another 'big' on the roster, including PaW and Thad that can do that currently. I'm not even mentioning WCJ who seems to have cement feet the last couple of years.

* On passing--I agree, but to a point. His job is to finish plays. He doesn't dribble, or hold up the ball. He shoots and drives as an end-point of a possession, and he's doing it an absolutely elite rate. He's not dribbling the air out of the ball to get his like Coby did to start the year. There is no player outside of Zach who Lauri should be giving up shots to because, by definition, the result would be statistically inferior. Here's how Lauri's most recent 30-point games came about: Zach gets doubled, passes to Thad. Lauri either spots up for an open 3, or Lauri cuts and get a pass for a layup/dunk. Repeat again and again. That's beautiful ball, no matter how you look at it. In context, he's finishing at 75% at the rim and 40% on his 3s. You don't want him passing these shots up so that Denzel or Temple can launch a shot. They are shots within the system--he's not breaking the flow of the game for the team as a whole.

* See above for shot creation--why do you need him to create for others? You've got Zach, Thad and Sato kicking ass in that department lately. No need for another guy to be creating just for the sake of creating. He's been elite at finishing possessions--let him continue doing that. In the end, no matter how well the ball moves--somebody has to put it in the hoop. That's like complaining that prime Suns Amare wasn't creating for others--it didn't matter.

* He's an off-ball player and for some reason, maybe because we had two of the best ever on-ball players in Scottie and MJ, we don't seem to value a guy that can score very well with barely touching the rock. You can't leave him open to help all game or else he'd drop 30 on your posterior, like he was starting to do regularly.

Overall, if he continues to improve on D and stays healthy, he's a player that's almost the perfect second banana to me. His flaws are consistent with him being a second banana. And, BTW, second bananas usually make maxes in the current NBA, so, health permitting, you'll probably have him for a bargain.

We see something different.

Instead of continuing a back and forth, I'll compliment you for replying to me in an intelligent fashion without letting the disagreement get personal. Kudos to you and I'll let it drop at that.

My stand on Lauri is obviously closer to chefo's but at this point we're beating a dead horse. I think coby and wcj were the reason for our struggles earlier. Those seem to be improved so I am hopeful this team will be even better with Lauri's offensive contributions. Lauri's game will need to do the talking when it comes back.

[Tetlak]

Other fans after team is starting to get it:

"New coach, new system. It takes time to get used to a new system. It's team sport after all. Wendell even said "he has never played a predominantly drop defense in his basketball career. He takes a great deal of responsibility for Bulls' defensive woes."

Bulls fans after team is starting to get it:

"HA, see they are immediately better after Markkanen is injured. It was obviously all on Lauri."

Sure, a minority of Bulls fans will outright blame Lauri. Will I? No. Instead, I'd just use this as evidence to support my belief that he is not the type of player you build with in today's NBA.

See the thing about the Zach haters is that Zach always had obvious potential in the areas that make players great - shot creation/making, physicals/athleticism, work ethic.

What part of Lauri's game makes him an outstanding NBA player even if he pops? Shooting open 3's off the catch? These are pros, and there are a ton of guys who can do that, and up until this small sample size, he hasn't even been above average at it. It's not like he can create for himself or even post up against smaller players, and it's not like he can defend smaller or bigger players or protect the rim.

Now if Lauri suddenly becomes a mismatch in the post along with being able to anchor a defense as a center, then he is absolutely a winning player...but he has shown no indication of being able to do any of this.

To summarize, his current skillset has little value in the current NBA.

[DroseReturnChi]

I'm going to be as nice as I can be saying this. Who gives a f**k if he is seven feet tall. He's not some above-average shot blocker or rebounder. Teams are getting his level of shooting from small ball fours aka small forwards.

Real stretch 4/5's were Love, Dirk and to a lesser degree Niko. They could post up smaller defenders or work from the elbow and high post area. You put a big on them they take them outside to the three-point line or drive past the slower big.

The Bulls have missed his three-point shooting but it's still generating good looks and the flow of the offense without him certainly hasn't been broken. I said it before and I'll say it again. You can find his level of three-point shooting which is by far his best attribute for less than 20 million per year.

Like why the fk do you care abt posting up so much? Dirk,Niko, Love those guys were a decade ago when posting up was the norm.
Now this era is all abt 3pt spacing and Lavine needs an elite stretch 5 which is Lauri. I am willing to bet coaches discourage players to post up because its one of the least efficient shots. Just sign 20/10 Okafor if you want post up lol.
Post ups are such a useless part of the game I would bench the guy every time he does it over jacking a 3.

Being 7ft absolutely matters esp on offense bc barely anyone can block the shot. If Lauri avged the same production while being Joe Harris, he will get max 15mil. Literally, the only reason his defense is avg is bc of his height.

[DroseReturnChi]

Two of the things that I have brought up in complaining about Lauri are his lack of help defense and his lack of passing. With him being out for several weeks, I hope people have noticed that the ball moves around like a ping pong ball on offense and on defense, people help the helper constantly. The results have been great.

I don't blame Lauri for single handedly pulling down the defense or stalling the offense. Its clear that the team has been learning the help defense and learning to share the ball and its just continued to get better over the course of the season.

It will be interesting to see if Lauri "gets with the program" when he comes back. If he doesn't help on defense or pass on offense, he is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

As a last note, the Bulls are running the same set virtually every possession. They are running plays for no one. Its just continuing movement and picks. They only run plays for Lavine at end of quarter / games. Wanting plays set up for him is a continuing request from Lauri supporters but we see that isn't necessary or optimal. He just needs to fit in.

I have seen similar improvements in Bulls play but my interpretation of the underlying reasons is entirely different. To me there is three main reasons explaining better ball movement lately and none of those involve Lauri.

1. Coby no longer "runs" the offense and team has Satoransky getting back to playing shape
2. Bulls has been mostly playing rather bad teams
3. Team is learning what BD system is about, player and ball movement

What comes to Lauri needing plays, I do not agree. He just needs ability to play his game which BD offense allows and facilitates - very much unlike Boylens. Lots of movement without ball and green light to attack the rim.

I can see the need for improvement in passing on Lauris behalf and - much more importantly - the ability to stay on court.
To me his Bulls future comes down to money. He can be a really good piece next to Lavine if Bulls do not need to overpay. I certainly root for him to sign here at something like 15$ and give the team a chance to sign other folks as well. I've grown quite fond of following this young Bulls group and would rather continue doing that as opposed to following someone else throwing too much money at Lauri.

Just have to note the bolded.

Basically you just admitted you were wrong abt complaining Lauri's lack of help defense and playmaking for months.
Thad basically played like garbage last season and wasnt good at playmaking until recent stretch which suggests everyone is learning under a new system. Lauri being out and team winning more like some user created is one of the most lazy analysis out there. There's a chance they could have won even wider margin.

IMO, the main reason why Bulls are winning is Lavine finally learned how to be clutch and stopped causing those dumb TOs that literally costed every game until recent win streak. Which explains why the Bulls are finally winning when he scores 30 or more but Lauri was already doing this last Feb for a whole month. Lauri's issue is not himself but was always the coach and the players around him not understanding their respective roles. If he was playing for the Lakers, he would be an all star already.

[coldfish]

I have seen similar improvements in Bulls play but my interpretation of the underlying reasons is entirely different. To me there is three main reasons explaining better ball movement lately and none of those involve Lauri.

1. Coby no longer "runs" the offense and team has Satoransky getting back to playing shape
2. Bulls has been mostly playing rather bad teams
3. Team is learning what BD system is about, player and ball movement

What comes to Lauri needing plays, I do not agree. He just needs ability to play his game which BD offense allows and facilitates - very much unlike Boylens. Lots of movement without ball and green light to attack the rim.

I can see the need for improvement in passing on Lauris behalf and - much more importantly - the ability to stay on court.
To me his Bulls future comes down to money. He can be a really good piece next to Lavine if Bulls do not need to overpay. I certainly root for him to sign here at something like 15$ and give the team a chance to sign other folks as well. I've grown quite fond of following this young Bulls group and would rather continue doing that as opposed to following someone else throwing too much money at Lauri.

Just have to note the bolded.

Basically you just admitted you were wrong abt complaining Lauri's lack of help defense and playmaking for months.
Thad basically played like garbage last season and wasnt good at playmaking until recent stretch which suggests everyone is learning under a new system. Lauri being out and team winning more like some user created is one of the most lazy analysis out there. There's a chance they could have won even wider margin.

Try reading it again.

And no, Lauri is a terrible help defender and his ability to create for others is almost completely nonexistant. I'm not sure any of his biggest fans put "playmaking" in his toolbox.

Do you actually watch the Chicago Bulls? Is there a player on some other team named Lauri that you are confusing with Lauri Markkanen?

[the ultimates]

I'm going to be as nice as I can be saying this. Who gives a f**k if he is seven feet tall. He's not some above-average shot blocker or rebounder. Teams are getting his level of shooting from small ball fours aka small forwards.

Real stretch 4/5's were Love, Dirk and to a lesser degree Niko. They could post up smaller defenders or work from the elbow and high post area. You put a big on them they take them outside to the three-point line or drive past the slower big.

The Bulls have missed his three-point shooting but it's still generating good looks and the flow of the offense without him certainly hasn't been broken. I said it before and I'll say it again. You can find his level of three-point shooting which is by far his best attribute for less than 20 million per year.

Like why the fk do you care abt posting up so much? Dirk,Niko, Love those guys were a decade ago when posting up was the norm.
Now this era is all abt 3pt spacing and Lavine needs an elite stretch 5 which is Lauri. I am willing to bet coaches discourage players to post up because its one of the least efficient shots. Just sign 20/10 Okafor if you want post up lol.
By your logic, did Draymond green get nearly a max contract when he rarely posts up?
Being 7ft absolutely matters esp on offense bc barely anyone can block the shot. If Lauri avged the same production while being Joe Harris, he will get max 15mil.

How does Lauri score on smaller defenders then? For a seven-footer, he definitely doesn't consistently shoot over small defenders and damn sure isn't driving past them. So on a switch against a guard how is he supposed to score?

Look at what happened when the Kings went small. Young went into the post and terrorized them. He either scored, got fouled, or created a good look for a teammate. Hell, last night Carter was a beast against an undersized Rockets team. When was the last Lauri did any like what Carter or Young did?