The Thunder Conundrum

[The Rebel]

Wow. I can see the parallels here.

To me, the Nuggets made some great moves, but eventually they were gonna have to make some tough decisions and they should've made them sooner. Here's my take on some of it:

1) Jerami Grant. I don't know why they didn't start him as a 3. In OKC, they used him as a 4, but eventually realized that he was best used as a 3 and the only reason they gave him up was to try and lighten their luxury tax bill. We don't know what the Nuggets truly offered him, but I think they should've pushed the envelop and given him a bigger deal let's say a 4/80-96M deal with a P/O. I would've offered this deal if he made it known he wanted to be a starter and i would've consolidated some role players for future assets/better fits. We saw the Suns do this with Kelly Oubre Jr. once they saw how successful Cam Johnson and Bridges played without him plus they got a great leader in CP3. Barton should've been moved and a team like NOLA would've been perfect as they could've nabbed JJ Redick and a 1st+2nd or Cleveland and Washington's 2nds as he'd be the perfect 2 guard next to Lonzo. Either way Barton should've been moved in order to allow Grant a bigger role as Barton feels he's too good to be a 6th man whereas Grant showed glimpses in Denver that he deserved to have plays run for him whenever Jokic or Murray were on the bench.

From what I can gather over the years Barton was the locker room leader and the guy that kept the young guys going and positive in the early years with Jokic and Murray. The front office and coaching staff loved him. I have heard that has changed but that he is still a leader of the team and has the backing of several of the veterans around the team so they have boxed themselves into a corner.

Fact is Grant was pretty terrible at PF last year, he did very well at Sf during the playoffs, but it is hard to call him a huge loss when he was not a positive contributor until round 2 of the playoffs. Of course some of the blame for his struggles can go to Malone for playing him at PF, but part of that is on the front office since we did not have another true PF, and on him for not showing anything for so long during the season.

2) The moves at last year's deadline. I'll admit Beasley should've gotten more minutes and Malone made some questionable moves, but in light of his off-court behaviour whether it was fighting an NFL player in a Denver hotel lobby or pleading guilty to a felony in Minnesota for a loaded gun, the Nuggets made the right move to move him along with Juancho. Wish they could've kept Vanderbilt but oh well. I really think they missed an opportunity to try and move these guys in a trade package for an upgrade as there's only so much playing time to go around.

There are two issues with the Beasley trade, the biggest is that he had a ton more value prior to last season starting, that value disappeared with Malone jerking his minutes around and using him as the whipping boy. This all led to Beasley losing his value, as Nurkic, Gallo, Chandler, Faried, Lawson, and even Mudiay all did while in Denver. Our front office has a long history of hanging onto guys too long and then getting nothing back in trade.

The other issue is that we traded Beasley and Juancho and had no plan on how to replace their production off the bench. We got a defensive specialist who we dumped last summer and a 1st round pick, since that trade we have been a 500 team. We ended the year at 11-11 after the trade, of course in the playoffs we ended up below 500, and this season we are barely above 500. What many do not realize is that Beasley was the scorer that could score at will off the bench and Juancho was the guy willing to do the dirty work, and always moving forcing defenses to watch him constantly. We still have not replaced either 1.

3) Backup centre. I'll admit Plumlee was frustrating at times as he was a liability at the FT line and he was useless outside the paint, but I think the Nuggets should've given him a 2/16M deal similar to what the Pistons gave him as they are screwed when Jokic goes to the bench. Dude is an underrated passer/ball handler for his size and could keep the general flow of the team going for 15-20 minutes as they really are hurting. He'd be the perfect stopgap until they found another option at the draft or through FA/trade.

I disagree totally, Plumlee was a huge problem in the playoffs and he was not a difference maker. Our issue with the bench has nothing to do with Hartenstein, but more to do with Malone refusing to use him much of the time. Hartenstein is actually a good passer, and a much better defender, but it does not matter if the coach refuses to play him for more than spot minutes every couple of games.

4) Team construction. They overloaded on too many guards and have very few bigs over 6'6. This is a problem when the regulars go to the bench. Millsap is getting up there in age and he may most likely be heading to retirement soon. The Nuggets seem to prefer to build within which is great, but it's pretty pathetic that they don't even have a G-league team. They could just build one in say Colorado Springs and give players that aren't playing time in the G-league some seasoning. The Raptors have done a fantastic job at this and a lot of the players on their title run and current roster have played there and even won a title in the g-league. Getting playing time to stay in shape is important and it's not helpful when a young rookie who's lucky to get 5 mins in garbage time isn't playing much.

I saw an interview early in the season where Malone was talking about how much easier the game is when you have multiple ball handlers and that they thought that was the issue against the Lakers. He wanted more ball handlers, and that is what they got him. We did not add a single scorer to the roster over the summer, but we did add defenders and ball handlers, and yet our defense sucks and when Jokic/Murray/ and MPJ are on the bench we have nobody that seems to be able to put the damn ball through the hoop.

As for the development, we have developed plenty of players, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Malone is a defense 1st coach that designed a **** defensive system and refuses to accept that teams need the ability to score as well. He used to play Mudiay and Jameer Nelson over Murray because Murray was a bad defender. He constantly messed with Beasley's minutes. Bol is being played out of position because he cannot defend true bigs, MPJ is having his minutes jerked around. Hell he gives Hampton minutes while Hampton still needs a lot of work on offense, but NNaji is getting less minutes because of his defensive rebounding. We have been waiting a long time for Malone to figure out that you need guys who can score in your offense, I would not hold my breath that he figuress it out soon though.

5) Malone not playing young guys more. Hampton and Nnaji look interesting as quite frankly they could be potential stalwarts in the Nuggets future. Nnaji needs to build up that frame, but I think he'll be okay and Hampton is a prep to pro player who went to New Zealand to play before this year. He should be giving these guys some burn while the veterans are injured/out to see what he has in them. With Bol Bol I thought there would be hope but I wouldn't be surprised if he was let go. I don't understand why they gave him a 2 way contract instead of giving him a standard 2nd round contract as he was the 42nd pick and the Nuggets would have him for 4 years of team control.

I think things could work out in the end, but it seems like the team plays like one that's fractured and you can see it on the court at times which is a bad sign.

Bol is on a 2 year $2 million per deal, the 2 way deal was last year and we re-signed him prior to the season. Personally his lack of effort and his issues in his game make me wish we could trade him and quickly.

As for Hampton and NNaji, both look great but the reality is that we have Jokic for 2 more years guaranteed, than who knows. Can we wait for those 2 and MPJ to develop and will Malone allow them to develop? Also is the front office willing to make the hard choices to clear room for them?

[NuggetsWY]

As for which players were promised what, I do not have specifics, but was told that several players were promised roles at the end of last season and several were promised roles when they signed/re-signed with us last offseason. Some were even promised the exact same role as others. Which is a coaching and front office problem that creates big problems in the locker rooms.

I have no doubt that on every team, coaches and front office personnel tell players every year "you will play more minutes next year" or "we plan to feature you more next year".

They did that to us in high school and while I never played college ball, a couple friends did and they were told the same thing each year. Even outside of sports, if you are in a decent paying position, that happens. Some have called it "The Golden Promise".

[slicedbread2]

Wow. I can see the parallels here.

To me, the Nuggets made some great moves, but eventually they were gonna have to make some tough decisions and they should've made them sooner. Here's my take on some of it:

1) Jerami Grant. I don't know why they didn't start him as a 3. In OKC, they used him as a 4, but eventually realized that he was best used as a 3 and the only reason they gave him up was to try and lighten their luxury tax bill. We don't know what the Nuggets truly offered him, but I think they should've pushed the envelop and given him a bigger deal let's say a 4/80-96M deal with a P/O. I would've offered this deal if he made it known he wanted to be a starter and i would've consolidated some role players for future assets/better fits. We saw the Suns do this with Kelly Oubre Jr. once they saw how successful Cam Johnson and Bridges played without him plus they got a great leader in CP3. Barton should've been moved and a team like NOLA would've been perfect as they could've nabbed JJ Redick and a 1st+2nd or Cleveland and Washington's 2nds as he'd be the perfect 2 guard next to Lonzo. Either way Barton should've been moved in order to allow Grant a bigger role as Barton feels he's too good to be a 6th man whereas Grant showed glimpses in Denver that he deserved to have plays run for him whenever Jokic or Murray were on the bench.

From what I can gather over the years Barton was the locker room leader and the guy that kept the young guys going and positive in the early years with Jokic and Murray. The front office and coaching staff loved him. I have heard that has changed but that he is still a leader of the team and has the backing of several of the veterans around the team so they have boxed themselves into a corner.

Fact is Grant was pretty terrible at PF last year, he did very well at Sf during the playoffs, but it is hard to call him a huge loss when he was not a positive contributor until round 2 of the playoffs. Of course some of the blame for his struggles can go to Malone for playing him at PF, but part of that is on the front office since we did not have another true PF, and on him for not showing anything for so long during the season.

2) The moves at last year's deadline. I'll admit Beasley should've gotten more minutes and Malone made some questionable moves, but in light of his off-court behaviour whether it was fighting an NFL player in a Denver hotel lobby or pleading guilty to a felony in Minnesota for a loaded gun, the Nuggets made the right move to move him along with Juancho. Wish they could've kept Vanderbilt but oh well. I really think they missed an opportunity to try and move these guys in a trade package for an upgrade as there's only so much playing time to go around.

There are two issues with the Beasley trade, the biggest is that he had a ton more value prior to last season starting, that value disappeared with Malone jerking his minutes around and using him as the whipping boy. This all led to Beasley losing his value, as Nurkic, Gallo, Chandler, Faried, Lawson, and even Mudiay all did while in Denver. Our front office has a long history of hanging onto guys too long and then getting nothing back in trade.

The other issue is that we traded Beasley and Juancho and had no plan on how to replace their production off the bench. We got a defensive specialist who we dumped last summer and a 1st round pick, since that trade we have been a 500 team. We ended the year at 11-11 after the trade, of course in the playoffs we ended up below 500, and this season we are barely above 500. What many do not realize is that Beasley was the scorer that could score at will off the bench and Juancho was the guy willing to do the dirty work, and always moving forcing defenses to watch him constantly. We still have not replaced either 1.

3) Backup centre. I'll admit Plumlee was frustrating at times as he was a liability at the FT line and he was useless outside the paint, but I think the Nuggets should've given him a 2/16M deal similar to what the Pistons gave him as they are screwed when Jokic goes to the bench. Dude is an underrated passer/ball handler for his size and could keep the general flow of the team going for 15-20 minutes as they really are hurting. He'd be the perfect stopgap until they found another option at the draft or through FA/trade.

I disagree totally, Plumlee was a huge problem in the playoffs and he was not a difference maker. Our issue with the bench has nothing to do with Hartenstein, but more to do with Malone refusing to use him much of the time. Hartenstein is actually a good passer, and a much better defender, but it does not matter if the coach refuses to play him for more than spot minutes every couple of games.

4) Team construction. They overloaded on too many guards and have very few bigs over 6'6. This is a problem when the regulars go to the bench. Millsap is getting up there in age and he may most likely be heading to retirement soon. The Nuggets seem to prefer to build within which is great, but it's pretty pathetic that they don't even have a G-league team. They could just build one in say Colorado Springs and give players that aren't playing time in the G-league some seasoning. The Raptors have done a fantastic job at this and a lot of the players on their title run and current roster have played there and even won a title in the g-league. Getting playing time to stay in shape is important and it's not helpful when a young rookie who's lucky to get 5 mins in garbage time isn't playing much.

I saw an interview early in the season where Malone was talking about how much easier the game is when you have multiple ball handlers and that they thought that was the issue against the Lakers. He wanted more ball handlers, and that is what they got him. We did not add a single scorer to the roster over the summer, but we did add defenders and ball handlers, and yet our defense sucks and when Jokic/Murray/ and MPJ are on the bench we have nobody that seems to be able to put the damn ball through the hoop.

As for the development, we have developed plenty of players, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Malone is a defense 1st coach that designed a **** defensive system and refuses to accept that teams need the ability to score as well. He used to play Mudiay and Jameer Nelson over Murray because Murray was a bad defender. He constantly messed with Beasley's minutes. Bol is being played out of position because he cannot defend true bigs, MPJ is having his minutes jerked around. Hell he gives Hampton minutes while Hampton still needs a lot of work on offense, but NNaji is getting less minutes because of his defensive rebounding. We have been waiting a long time for Malone to figure out that you need guys who can score in your offense, I would not hold my breath that he figuress it out soon though.

5) Malone not playing young guys more. Hampton and Nnaji look interesting as quite frankly they could be potential stalwarts in the Nuggets future. Nnaji needs to build up that frame, but I think he'll be okay and Hampton is a prep to pro player who went to New Zealand to play before this year. He should be giving these guys some burn while the veterans are injured/out to see what he has in them. With Bol Bol I thought there would be hope but I wouldn't be surprised if he was let go. I don't understand why they gave him a 2 way contract instead of giving him a standard 2nd round contract as he was the 42nd pick and the Nuggets would have him for 4 years of team control.

I think things could work out in the end, but it seems like the team plays like one that's fractured and you can see it on the court at times which is a bad sign.

Bol is on a 2 year $2 million per deal, the 2 way deal was last year and we re-signed him prior to the season. Personally his lack of effort and his issues in his game make me wish we could trade him and quickly.

As for Hampton and NNaji, both look great but the reality is that we have Jokic for 2 more years guaranteed, than who knows. Can we wait for those 2 and MPJ to develop and will Malone allow them to develop? Also is the front office willing to make the hard choices to clear room for them?

Those are some interesting details. Especially with Barton being a positive influence in the locker room which you badly need. To me if he were willing to have taken a 6th man role, it could've helped the Nuggets b/c it seems that they go cold at times when Jokic isn't on the floor and Murray needs his rest.

I'll agree that Plumlee wrecked any chance he had of coming back to Denver after that putrid playoff performance against the Lakers, especially when Craig and Plums were on the floor it was practically 3 on 5 and that's a bad look. That blown coverage against AD will be a lasting memory of Plums time in Denver.

It's truly crazy that coach Malone wouldn't give Beasley and Juancho more playing time. It's dumb that they didn't resign both of them as they could've been extremely useful off the bench. It's a good problem to have when you have multiple rotation players that could be starters elsewhere. Tim Connelly should've forced Malone to give more time and if that wasn't gonna work then you may as well consolidate said depth and upgrade as the Nuggets need a PF to step in once Millsap retires. It's a shame AD was hellbent on only wanting to go to the Lakers as him and Jrue could've been the perfect match with Jokic and the Nuggets had the salary+assets to get it done. Oh well can't cry over spilled milk.

The FO better do something and be smart about it because the worse thing they can do is cause Jokic to have 2nd thoughts about resigning and he'll get the supermax that he rightfully deserves which will start around 5/230-250M? I hope they get it together and Malone finally stops being stubborn and hopefully figures things out. I won't hold my breath, but a breakthrough in that department would really help things come together.

[Maf]

Love how instead of explaining who are those PLAYERS who were promised starting spots by your "source" you were capable of just very low and stupid personal attack.

You are right, I apologize for the attack.

As for which players were promised what, I do not have specifics, but was told that several players were promised roles at the end of last season and several were promised roles when they signed/re-signed with us last offseason. Some were even promised the exact same role as others. Which is a coaching and front office problem that creates big problems in the locker rooms.

Accepted, thanks.

Ok, maybe I put too much importance to starting role being promised. Cause I would repeat myself, only one I'd believe might be promised that was Green. Not sure about time-line and I am well tired of work so I am lazy to check it, but wasn't it that Green was signed before Millsap when it seemed he will accept Boston offer? If this is right then it's on Green, I think. He should realize what Paul means for our organization as a mentor and only big name free agent since... Kenyon Martin? Yeah, I do believe there might be some promise to Hartenstein he will be our back up C. Not DNP-CD guy. And I think he was talking mad about his Houston days for not getting oportunity he believes he deserves. So I could see him being unhappy and for a reason. IDK, Monta might be promised to be our back up PG and now he is learning to be back up SG/SF. Not his game, he is battling with it but it is understandable. But I can't see Monta being the problem guy. I've always heard how everybody even on other teams love him.

And about Barton (again... ) I wrote before I am not some his lunatic fan. I just hate to see him being scapegoated. He is quality starter. I don't see some ballhog as some claims. I mean he took over 12 shots only 5 times this season... Fun fact, in four of those games Jamal was 6-18, 4-17, 3-7 and 1-9. I'd rather not create discussion if it means Jamal played poorly so Will thought he need to step up or when Barton shoots Murray doesn't want to play. And btw three times it was without MPJ so someone had to be the third scorer. And I can tell you yesterday I was disgusted by effort he showed playing defense against Trae. (Jamal too) I usually say he is better defender than being credited. Not great, not very good, but decent. But that game was awful.

You wrote some players support Paul and Will to being starters. And I just can't see how this makes Will a bad guy. You didn't write Will says everyway he goes he needs to be starter, you wrote other players say...

[Maf]

and Rebel, that post to slicedbread2 was great. I mean it seriously. Constructive, well thought, informative.

[NuggetsWY]

Slicedbread2 & The Rebel make some interesting points. Here's my take which begins with Grant but could have started elsewhere. Watch for the "*** *** ***" to see the beginning of my opinion of why the Nuggets are struggling. I could be off base, it's happened before. But that's why it's called "an opinion". Feel free to disagree.

Jerami Grant --- I'm not sure Grant would have stayed no matter what the Nuggets said or did. He said he wanted to stay and play on a contender but when he left, he said it was to get a bigger role on offense.

The truth is, Grant was never going to get plays called for him in Denver. It sure seems that most of the plays called are for Jokic - Murray and rightfully so. IMO the rest of the team needs to move, move, move and that's how they'll get their buckets. But even worse for someone like Grant, it seems Malone is telling them to stand on the outside and just watch - probably in order to clear the lane.

As for playing Grant at SF vs PF, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference. There are quite a few teams playing a pair of forwards that are mostly interchangeable - typically both are very big SFs or very mobile PFs.

*** *** ***

In my opinion, the real problem for the Nuggets is that coach grew up in a different era and he does everything he can to replicate the best teams of those eras - and that doesn't work in the modern NBA. The offenses are different and better and more versatile, so the defenses have adjusted. Malone's does not appear to have adjusted. The Nuggets are not very good at help defense or switching when there is a serious mis-match. They seem to focus on one-on-one defense.

I truly believe he is trying to force players into his system and that reduces their value to the Nuggets and their trade value as well. He doesn't take advantage of their skills.

Malone's comments about "ball handlers" is a real cop-out. Watch the modern NBA and you won't see much full-court press. The concept of a PG handling the ball and bringing it up court against pressure is about three decades old - maybe more. The modern NBA players, at least most of them, can handle the ball fairly well and they are fairly intelligent. When faced with a double-team in the backcourt, they just pass over it to the open man.

Running at three point shooters to "get them off the line" was 1990s. The modern NBA 3pt shooters simply pump fake, let the "fly by" go past and then take a wide open shot. The Nuggets are not the only one doing this, but look at the teams that have good anti-3 stats. They do not use the "fly by" approach.

Malone can talk about a player whose "defense isn't ready to play" all he wants but the truth is, Malone plays the players that he likes and their defense doesn't always work. It's just another way he throws guys under the bus.

[The Rebel]

As for which players were promised what, I do not have specifics, but was told that several players were promised roles at the end of last season and several were promised roles when they signed/re-signed with us last offseason. Some were even promised the exact same role as others. Which is a coaching and front office problem that creates big problems in the locker rooms.

I have no doubt that on every team, coaches and front office personnel tell players every year "you will play more minutes next year" or "we plan to feature you more next year".

They did that to us in high school and while I never played college ball, a couple friends did and they were told the same thing each year. Even outside of sports, if you are in a decent paying position, that happens. Some have called it "The Golden Promise".

Hence the reason I have stayed self employed most of my career. I agree it happens all the time, but then management smooths things out. Which is why I said it is more of a coaching and front office promise, for what ever reason Malone does not seem to be able to get guys to buy into their roles. There are always guys bitching about it, going back to Faried within a few weeks of the 1st season under Malone, Chandler, Gallo, Nurkic, Nelson, Beasley, Grant, and now Barton are all guys who have openly questioned their role on the team in public, that is on the coach.

The biggest issue is when half the locker room agrees with 1 guy and the other half with another guy and the coach or front office cannot get everybody on the same page and focus on the greater goal. That and his **** rotations are my 2 biggest problems with Malone.

[The Rebel]

Love how instead of explaining who are those PLAYERS who were promised starting spots by your "source" you were capable of just very low and stupid personal attack.

You are right, I apologize for the attack.

As for which players were promised what, I do not have specifics, but was told that several players were promised roles at the end of last season and several were promised roles when they signed/re-signed with us last offseason. Some were even promised the exact same role as others. Which is a coaching and front office problem that creates big problems in the locker rooms.

Accepted, thanks.

Ok, maybe I put too much importance to starting role being promised. Cause I would repeat myself, only one I'd believe might be promised that was Green. Not sure about time-line and I am well tired of work so I am lazy to check it, but wasn't it that Green was signed before Millsap when it seemed he will accept Boston offer? If this is right then it's on Green, I think. He should realize what Paul means for our organization as a mentor and only big name free agent since... Kenyon Martin? Yeah, I do believe there might be some promise to Hartenstein he will be our back up C. Not DNP-CD guy. And I think he was talking mad about his Houston days for not getting oportunity he believes he deserves. So I could see him being unhappy and for a reason. IDK, Monta might be promised to be our back up PG and now he is learning to be back up SG/SF. Not his game, he is battling with it but it is understandable. But I can't see Monta being the problem guy. I've always heard how everybody even on other teams love him.

I actually think Green was brought in as the 3rd big, that the plan was always to use him at backup Center. I think Millsap was a panic signing and that they promised him a lot of things to get him to come back (not that he doesn't deserve those things for coming when he did and what he has done to help the team grow). Green and Millsap are not the problem really.

I will also say that Monta is a guy who reportedly has an amazing attitude and does what ever the coaching staff asks.

And about Barton (again... ) I wrote before I am not some his lunatic fan. I just hate to see him being scapegoated. He is quality starter. I don't see some ballhog as some claims. I mean he took over 12 shots only 5 times this season... Fun fact, in four of those games Jamal was 6-18, 4-17, 3-7 and 1-9. I'd rather not create discussion if it means Jamal played poorly so Will thought he need to step up or when Barton shoots Murray doesn't want to play. And btw three times it was without MPJ so someone had to be the third scorer. And I can tell you yesterday I was disgusted by effort he showed playing defense against Trae. (Jamal too) I usually say he is better defender than being credited. Not great, not very good, but decent. But that game was awful.

You wrote some players support Paul and Will to being starters. And I just can't see how this makes Will a bad guy. You didn't write Will says everyway he goes he needs to be starter, you wrote other players say...

I have never said Barton was a bad guy I try to avoid calling any player a good or bad guy because I don't know them, a bad fit and a problem yes, but not a bad guy.

Personally I appreciate what Will has brought to the team over the years, we needed someone with irrational confidence just to overcome the self doubt so many young guys face. I also understand why so many of our players are loyal to him, but that does not change the situation and him being on the team is creating a bad situation.

Barton is not really a ball hog, although he can be at times. The biggest issue with Barton is that he is an iso scorer, he does his best with the ball in his hands, but our offense is designed for ball movement with off the ball movement (Or at least it was when our offense ran right), so when he decides he needs to score our entire offensive system breaks down. Nobody moves, no off the ball screens, no back cuts, guys are just standing around waiting for barton to do his thing. On a team like the Trailblazers or Wizards he would be a great 3rd scorer, but you cannot have a totally separate offense for your 3rd scorer it just doesn't work. Last year he was actually very good at spotting up and picking his spots, but this year his shot has been off and he seems unsure of himself.

This year Barton has been plain bad on defense, I don't know if it is the knee or what but it has been terrible. Last year he was our 2nd best perimeter defender. He does his best against SFs that are jumpshooters, and he was a good weakside help defender, he was important to our defense last year, this year he has been a detriment all around.

[The Rebel]

Slicedbread2 & The Rebel make some interesting points. Here's my take which begins with Grant but could have started elsewhere. Watch for the "*** *** ***" to see the beginning of my opinion of why the Nuggets are struggling. I could be off base, it's happened before. But that's why it's called "an opinion". Feel free to disagree.

Jerami Grant --- I'm not sure Grant would have stayed no matter what the Nuggets said or did. He said he wanted to stay and play on a contender but when he left, he said it was to get a bigger role on offense.

The truth is, Grant was never going to get plays called for him in Denver. It sure seems that most of the plays called are for Jokic - Murray and rightfully so. IMO the rest of the team needs to move, move, move and that's how they'll get their buckets. But even worse for someone like Grant, it seems Malone is telling them to stand on the outside and just watch - probably in order to clear the lane.

As for playing Grant at SF vs PF, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference. There are quite a few teams playing a pair of forwards that are mostly interchangeable - typically both are very big SFs or very mobile PFs.

*** *** ***

In my opinion, the real problem for the Nuggets is that coach grew up in a different era and he does everything he can to replicate the best teams of those eras - and that doesn't work in the modern NBA. The offenses are different and better and more versatile, so the defenses have adjusted. Malone's does not appear to have adjusted. The Nuggets are not very good at help defense or switching when there is a serious mis-match. They seem to focus on one-on-one defense.

I truly believe he is trying to force players into his system and that reduces their value to the Nuggets and their trade value as well. He doesn't take advantage of their skills.

Malone's comments about "ball handlers" is a real cop-out. Watch the modern NBA and you won't see much full-court press. The concept of a PG handling the ball and bringing it up court against pressure is about three decades old - maybe more. The modern NBA players, at least most of them, can handle the ball fairly well and they are fairly intelligent. When faced with a double-team in the backcourt, they just pass over it to the open man.

Running at three point shooters to "get them off the line" was 1990s. The modern NBA 3pt shooters simply pump fake, let the "fly by" go past and then take a wide open shot. The Nuggets are not the only one doing this, but look at the teams that have good anti-3 stats. They do not use the "fly by" approach.

Malone can talk about a player whose "defense isn't ready to play" all he wants but the truth is, Malone plays the players that he likes and their defense doesn't always work. It's just another way he throws guys under the bus.

Rumors were out there that Grant said he choose the Pistons because the GM and coach were both black. To me using race to decide where to sign seems to be a dumb reason, but it is his free agency not mine.

I agree with you mostly on the defense. It is funny reading fans of other teams that try to say our defense is set up for our personnel and maybe it was with Millsap younger and healthier and harris healthy, but now it is a total cluster of guys trying to stop someone 1 on 1 and the ball handler just running through screens until he gets an opening or the screener get a clear path to the rim. pick and rolls have been around forever and yet we cannot figure out how to even stop them when we know that is all a team will run.

Maybe I am just in a bad mood after hearing about Finch getting a job with the Twolves, but our offense is our biggest problem especially since I know so many of us remember the way we took off in 16/17 when we started running the Jokic offense. I don't know who else has noticed but our offense has totally regressed this year. I cannot be the only one who remembers all the hype of pre-season talk of going back to the jokic motion offense. It seems like as soon as the regular season started we went back to the Jokic/Murray pick and roll or dribble handoff and threw the rest of the offense away. Nobody seems to know what to do and when. On the rare occasions that Jokic has the ball in the high post we get open cutters to the rim, open shooters when he is in the low post, and when we use backscreens guys are wide open at the rim, yet all we run and pick and rolls or dribble handoffs. The thing is that Jokic especially and Murray when he is focused are good enough to keep the offense respectable, but if either are having a bad night or off the court than the entire offense is going to fall apart. Good defensive teams in the playoffs will easily be able to stop our offense just like the Lakers did when they just doubled Jokic and Murray daring the other 3 to do something about it.

[DaFan334]

Maybe I am just in a bad mood after hearing about Finch getting a job with the Twolves, but our offense is our biggest problem especially since I know so many of us remember the way we took off in 16/17 when we started running the Jokic offense. I don't know who else has noticed but our offense has totally regressed this year. I cannot be the only one who remembers all the hype of pre-season talk of going back to the jokic motion offense. It seems like as soon as the regular season started we went back to the Jokic/Murray pick and roll or dribble handoff and threw the rest of the offense away. Nobody seems to know what to do and when. On the rare occasions that Jokic has the ball in the high post we get open cutters to the rim, open shooters when he is in the low post, and when we use backscreens guys are wide open at the rim, yet all we run and pick and rolls or dribble handoffs. The thing is that Jokic especially and Murray when he is focused are good enough to keep the offense respectable, but if either are having a bad night or off the court than the entire offense is going to fall apart. Good defensive teams in the playoffs will easily be able to stop our offense just like the Lakers did when they just doubled Jokic and Murray daring the other 3 to do something about it.

The two-man offensive game is what somewhat concerns me as I do worry that other players don't enjoy playing the bi-standard that never gets the ball on the outside of the arch. A lot of players will easily have to accept this role, but a player who has the scoring talent of MPJ may grow impatient and want to move on, similar to Grant. This kind of is where I see potential similarities to the Thunder situation where they moved a very talented young player in Harden and he went off when he had the offense in his hands. It worries me that we might corner ourselves into a situation like that, and not get back good value for what he may turn into if he does go elsewhere. This is where the conundrum of what we do lies in my opinion. I am not sure the offense as currently ran, will allow him to strive as much as he could. He seems to do way too much sitting at the 3 point line and the team seems to miss him at times when he actually is open.

I hope that isn't the case and MPJ develops the rest of his game to fit in and the offense eventually starts to find him, but I could easily see him wanting to move on if he doesn't get to develop his offensive game with the ball in his hands more.

[U hova]

It's weird to say the offense has regressed when we are in the top 5~7 consistently for the past 3 years, but I definitely agree that this is very much weaker than those electric months under FInch's system. I think the worst thing that happened was that Gary went down, and ever since the dynamic shifted from Jokic + 4 guys reading off one another, to what we have now with Jokic + hoping Murray/MPJ find their 20+ points.

Jokic is responsible for more bad-pass TOs per assist in the 3 years post-finch than that one year we had - are teams respecting him more? did he regress? my eye test tells me it is because our offense is far more stagnant - Jokic is forcing more passes that aren't there, it is preposterous to suggest that his skill diminished.

There's some lost magic with how the Defense first guys Malone has groveled for are... not very athletic. Can anybody else remember the last time we saw Jokic toss an oop? Surely this is not just an aesthetic preference but an actual offensive option that we miss due to coaching bias.

The statistics say that it is our defense that is failing us, but I feel far too often that it is our highly ranked offense that is severely underachieving. What I'm feeling from NBA fans in general this year is that defense no longer exists anyways... many games are decided not by strategic triumph but by the luck of 3pt%, which too often is not controllable despite efforts to contain the attempts themselves. The top 6 offenses as of today are just the 6 offenses that hit the highest % of 3s. Of those 6, we are the only team that only has 2 players shooting more than 4 attempts per game. If we catch a cold night from either MPJ or Murray, the game is already decided. Other teams find consistency by spreading out their attempts more..

[skywalker33]

So far this season, we’ve seen only 2-4 games where our Big 3 has been effective together. Even so, with mixed results as far as wins go. Add to that the injuries, ineffective play by both veterans and rookies, poor coaching snd here we are at the 8th playoff seed. Continuity and chemistry are almost gone from this team, both of those characteristics were essential in getting us to last years WCFs. Malone snd the FO have not done a great job dealing with aging vets and integrating MPJ/youth into the rotation IMO, costing us a few games now and probably in the future, haven’t seen too many complete games this entire season