Verdict on Dan Gilbert post Lebron 2.0?

[BrooklynDynasty]

The Cleveland Cavaliers have played 178 games since LeBron James decided in July of 2018 to leave the franchise as a free agent for the 2nd time in his career and play elsewhere.

The Cleveland franchise has won only 48 games since then. This is dead last in the NBA in that span, behind the Knicks (53), Bulls (57), and Hawks/Timberwolves (62)

In that time span they have had the most head coaches of any team in the association: Ty Lue, Larry Drew, John Beilein, and J.B Bickerstaff.

Draft picks that have made their Cavaliers debut in that time and played more than two dozen games for the team in that time include Colin Sexton (career 14.4 PER), Darius Garland (9.9), and Isaac Okoro (5.9).

Notable signings and trades include inking Kevin Love to a 4yr/120 million extension, and trading for Andre Drummond, and impending restricted free agent Jarrett Allen.


Dan Gilbert has a 43 billion dollar net worth as of 2021, making him the 2nd richest owner in the league only behind Ballmer. So what is going on here? It's no secret that the Cavaliers stint for the four years following Lebron 1.0 were also among the worst performing teams in the league in that span, but 2.5 years after LeBron 2.0's tenure ended, it seems like the franchise is in an even bigger mess, with not even an Irving type of asset in the fold to build upon. Moreover, turnover among coaching staff has been especially notable for a franchise you would expect to give a long leash for a rebuilding period.

Cavalier fans like to remark that Gilbert is a good owner because he isn't afraid to spend in the luxury tax to support a winner, or that he doesn't meddle like a Dolan or Vivek, so then what explains the teams poor fortunes, even compared to other franchises notorious for failing to reach even just mediocrity?

[JoeyLightYears]

Still a scumbag

[jbk1234]

The truth is that Cavs team the year before LBJ left wasn't all that good. We were saddled with some bad contracts and aging players. We traded who we could for picks and one of those picks turned into Allen so I'll take it.

Kevin Love is a good basketball player who can't stay healthy. It sucks. But the Cavs losing Kyrie, LBJ, and Love, the latter two for nothing, over 18 months, would've sucked too.

In terms of who they selected:

Sexton is an efficient scorer who can get his own shot and averages more than 20 ppg. With the benefit of hindsight, you could argue that SGA or Mikal Bridges should've been taken ahead of him, but he's not a miss and he's better than a lot of guys taken ahead of him.

The next year, the Cavs wanted Hunter and got jumped by the Hawks who traded in front of them to grab him. They were left with Garland who was BPA at the time and still appears to be now. There's not a player selected after him who I'd trade him for straight up even with the benefit of hindsight.

Okoro can be an all star in the NBA if he can start hitting that three point shot consistently. If it doesn't happen within a couple years from now, then that's going to look like a miss. But writing guys off half way through their rookie season is dumb.

In sum, teams should almost always take the guys they have highest on the board and worry about fit later. When they don't fit, this is what it looks like but it's better than the alternative.

Talk to me when the Nets window closes and they have to dig out of the whole they've made for themselves.

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[mg]

Dan Gilbert suffered an ischemic stroke in May, 2019. Doctors found a clot in his carotid artery that cut blood to his brain, leaving him temporarily paralyzed. Since that time he has had little input into the Cavaliers basically giving control to GM Koby Altman. It seems a bit unfair to post any verdicts on Gilbert.

[picko]

A rebuild takes a number of years and sometimes longer if you don't have any valuable assets that you can use to increase your draft stock. It rarely happens overnight.

It's only been three seasons since LeBron left, so it is unreasonable to expect any meaningful success within that time-frame. Most of the contract they had at the time were only valuable because LeBron was there and couldn't easily be traded for assets.

Right now they have a core of young talent. They should add to that in the coming draft. If I was a Cavs fan I'd be bullish about their prospects over the next three seasons, as that core group of talent gets more experience playing together. .

[dc]

Right now, it's not looking good.

Sexton isn't bad. He's aggressive and can score, but he's likely going to wind up as a Kemba Walker level of PG. Productive guy and perhaps even a sometimes all-star, but not a guy to be your franchise #1.

Garland can shoot/score as well, but I just don't see how he and Sexton can be a long term duo in an era of big guards/wings. Just really bad defense.

I liked Okoro coming out of Auburn but I was immediately surprised at how small the guy looked once he got onto an NBA floor. It's like he shrunk or something. Watching his college highlights, I figured he could play some minutes as a Artest like 4, but now no way. He looks average sized for a 2 and small for 3. I suppose he can be a long term starter if he can shoot the ball better, but overall he's not the prospect I thought he was during the pre-draft process.

Allen looks like a good long term C, but they're likely going to have to pay him. As it's been said, with Love out, they're just a team of centers and small guards right now, which is basically the opposite direction as the rest of the league.

From the looks of it, they need some similar lottery luck as they had from 2011-2014.

[Pantsman]

He had a stroke. Not really fair to judge anything he’s done. Koby has been running the team but Dan still gives him an open check book.

[JJ_PR]

Right now, it's not looking good.

Sexton isn't bad. He's aggressive and can score, but he's likely going to wind up as a Kemba Walker level of PG. Productive guy and perhaps even a sometimes all-star, but not a guy to be your franchise #1.

Garland can shoot/score as well, but I just don't see how he and Sexton can be a long term duo in an era of big guards/wings. Just really bad defense.

I liked Okoro coming out of Auburn but I was immediately surprised at how small the guy looked once he got onto an NBA floor. It's like he shrunk or something. Watching his college highlights, I figured he could play some minutes as a Artest like 4, but now no way. He looks average sized for a 2 and small for 3. I suppose he can be a long term starter if he can shoot the ball better, but overall he's not the prospect I thought he was during the pre-draft process.

Allen looks like a good long term C, but they're likely going to have to pay him. As it's been said, with Love out, they're just a team of centers and small guards right now, which is basically the opposite direction as the rest of the league.

From the looks of it, they need some similar lottery luck as they had from 2011-2014.

I've been trying to find a good comparison for Sexton. That may be it, a taller Kemba Walker is the best comparison I've seen.

[cupcakesnake]

Not that I'm a huge fan of the moves by the post-Lebron Cavs. But I don't think there's anything to complain about here. This team went non-stop all-in to win a championship with Lebron. They did it! Had Durant not joined the Warriors, the Cavs would have had decent title chances 2-3 years.

Then they lost Kyrie through a forced trade, Lebron through free agency and Kevin Love to injuries.

OP, imagine in the next 2 years: you win a title, but Kyrie becomes unhappy and demands a trade, Harden re-signs on a huge deal but get injured, KD leaves to make to find his final team. And Brooklyn is left stripped of their draft capital, and doesn't even have real cap space due to Harden's deal and some other medium-big deals they handed out during the title runs. Would you be asking for a verdict on Joseph Tsai 1.0?

Going all in can lead to ugly, lengthy rebuilds. The Cavs kids are alright. They've been collecting good young players. It's really hard to get out of the basement. Houston has just started it. Brooklyn and both LA teams (Clippers moreso than Lakers) have a scary rebuild in the future.

[Statlanta]

The truth is that Cavs team the year before LBJ left wasn't all that good. We were saddled with some bad contracts and aging players due to the suggestion of LeBron James

Tell it like it was

[Danny1616]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

[KazuoOda]

It's been how many years since the Cavs championship run??? Rebuilds take time, we traded away picks to win that Ring. I dont know why people judge the Cavs( A small market team) on a different level than most teams. You have or had teams in the league like the Knicks, Hawks and Clippers that have been **** or had been **** for years.

It's mostly Lebron nut huggers that want to say, "look see, I told you so"
So I understand.

[Blacksheep25]

He’s got one more NBA title as owner than every Nets owner in history.

As long as he doesn’t buy out Andre and help those 3 weak-hearted losers out, he’s cool with me.

[ropjhk]

The jury is still deliberating. No verdict available yet.

[KodiakBear]

They also had the worst record in the NBA over the 4 years where Lebron was in Miami.

Gilbert isn't a good owner other than when Lebron was on the team. To add to that it is very hard to win in Cleveland. In the 40 years of Cleveland Cavalier history where Lebron was not on the roster they have won a grand total of 4 playoff series. They have to hit a home run in the draft or they won't win. No big time free agent is coming to Cleveland. And sorry, Garland and Sexton are fine, but they aren't home runs. You aren't winning championships with those guys.

[mg]

People want to pile on but Gilbert has always hired good people around him. He's the one who hired David Griffin during the 2nd Lebron run. He put Koby in charge of the Cavs in 2017 and put Jay Farner and other execs in charge of Quicken/Rocket Mortgage the same year. Despite a debilitating stroke the Gilbert family is raking in the cash since Quicken went public last year. He gives the Cavs an open checkbook but hasn't been involved in the day to day running of the organization since 2019..
Unfortunately the Cavs have had really bad lottery luck this time which makes it even more difficult for a small midwest market to build a team. Obviously a Brooklyn fan started this thread but a team like the Cavs can't go out in free agency and buy a Durant or Irving. Koby Altman was super green when he got the GM gig but has been learning on the job. I suspect the Cavs will turn it around at some point though.

[BrooklynDynasty]

People want to pile on but Gilbert has always hired good people around him. He's the one who hired David Griffin during the 2nd Lebron run. He put Koby in charge of the Cavs in 2017 and put Jay Farner and other execs in charge of Quicken/Rocket Mortgage the same year. Despite a debilitating stroke the Gilbert family is raking in the cash since Quicken went public last year. He gives the Cavs an open checkbook but hasn't been involved in the day to day running of the organization since 2019..
Unfortunately the Cavs have had really bad lottery luck this time which makes it even more difficult for a small midwest market to build a team. Obviously a Brooklyn fan started this thread but a team like the Cavs can't go out in free agency and buy a Durant or Irving. Koby Altman was super green when he got the GM gig but has been learning on the job. I suspect the Cavs will turn it around at some point though.

WIth fewer or worse picks than the Cavs have had, Marks built a playoff team before Kyrie and KD signed up. Let's not make excuses here.

No one's asking why the Cavs aren't a playoff team. Just noticing that counting the years a certain player from Akron isn't on the team, Cleveland is tallying up on nearly a decade of being by far the worst team in the league. By far. In a league with the Knicks and Timberwolves.

I personally think it's their awful drafting. The only picks they've ever nailed as in bringing in a high impact guy have been Irving/LeBron, two #1s that were pretty obvious number ones, and even with that have failed with the other two #1s they had including the biggest bust of all time. And when you look at their non #1 high picks, it looks even worse...

[Hoopz Afrik]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

The cost of winning. They could've said no but they obliged.

[BrooklynDynasty]

It's been how many years since the Cavs championship run??? Rebuilds take time, we traded away picks to win that Ring. I dont know why people judge the Cavs( A small market team) on a different level than most teams. You have or had teams in the league like the Knicks, Hawks and Clippers that have been **** or had been **** for years.

It's mostly Lebron nut huggers that want to say, "look see, I told you so"
So I understand.

2.5 going on three seasons now. How many LeBron era contracts are even still on the roster? How many outstanding picks are still owed? It's not like they are even making incremental progress; they've shown zero upward trajectory from their spot in the bottom of the cellar

[Anticon]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

The cost of winning. They could've said no but they obliged.

It was defintely LeBron that re-signed Kevin Love.