Verdict on Dan Gilbert post Lebron 2.0?

[nikster]

[list=][/list]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

After almost 4 months of negotiating the Cavs increased their initial offer by $2 million over 5 years. That's a miniscule difference that wouldn't have impacted the Cavs future. And what choice did the Cavs have? They were in win now mode with a star over the age of 30. They couldn't let TT walk because they had no way to otherwise fill out the roster. TT and his agent knew that.

Blaming Lebron for the TT contract is one of the laziest arguments out there

[jbk1234]

[list=][/list]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

After almost 4 months of negotiating the Cavs increased their initial offer by $2 million over 5 years. That's a miniscule difference that wouldn't have impacted the Cavs future. And what choice did the Cavs have? They were in win now mode with a star over the age of 30. They couldn't let TT walk because they had no way to otherwise fill out the roster. TT and his agent knew that.

Blaming Lebron for the TT contract is one of the laziest arguments out there

You're assuming that TT would've gotten the initial offer if he was represented by an agency that didn't also have LBJ as a client on a series of one and one contracts. He would not have. The Cavs would've told him to go test the market and bring back an offer sheet. He did, the market wasn't what he hoped, and he actually allowed the deadline for accepting the Q.O. to expire. The contracts for JR and TT were both a year too long in addition to being well over market on a yearly basis.

[mg]

It's been how many years since the Cavs championship run??? Rebuilds take time, we traded away picks to win that Ring. I dont know why people judge the Cavs( A small market team) on a different level than most teams. You have or had teams in the league like the Knicks, Hawks and Clippers that have been **** or had been **** for years.

It's mostly Lebron nut huggers that want to say, "look see, I told you so"
So I understand.

2.5 going on three seasons now. How many LeBron era contracts are even still on the roster? How many outstanding picks are still owed? It's not like they are even making incremental progress; they've shown zero upward trajectory from their spot in the bottom of the cellar

Love is still on the roster eating 30 mil of capspace.
They still owe 2nd round picks thru 2024 including the next two that go to the Pels thanks to the Korver trade. They can't find 2nd round bargains like the Nets did...they didn't even have a 2nd round pick in this last draft. They went all in and won a ring but they are still paying for it. (Don't blame them since that might be the only real championship window I will see in my lifetime). Their biggest mistake was paying Love but they thought he would keep the fans happy until they could build another team that was at least competitive. Unfortunately 'stars' like Love, Drummond, Blake Griffin, etc do not want to play for small market/cold city rebuilding teams in this day and age even when they are paid $30 mil + to do so.

[ConSarnit]

Welp, in non-Lebron years since 2003 they’ve won over 25 games once. So I’m going to say it’s not looking too good.

[mg]

Welp, in non-Lebron years since 2003 they’ve won over 25 games once. So I’m going to say it’s not looking too good.

Welp they pretty much blow thru every single asset while Lebron is on the team so of course it's going to take awhile to recover. Fans of big markets don't understand how difficult it is for smaller cold markets to build a team esp after dealing away all their picks/assets/young prospects to please someone like Lebron. Unfortunately most small market teams are turning into feeder teams for the Lakers/Nets of the world similar to baseball. If a smaller market has a window they should probably use every asset at their disposal because the window is probably going to be very small.

Like I already said several times in this thread Gilbert hasn't been involved in the day to day activites of the team since 2019 after his stroke. This has been 100% Altman's show for nearly 2 years now.

[jbk1234]

People want to pile on but Gilbert has always hired good people around him. He's the one who hired David Griffin during the 2nd Lebron run. He put Koby in charge of the Cavs in 2017 and put Jay Farner and other execs in charge of Quicken/Rocket Mortgage the same year. Despite a debilitating stroke the Gilbert family is raking in the cash since Quicken went public last year. He gives the Cavs an open checkbook but hasn't been involved in the day to day running of the organization since 2019..
Unfortunately the Cavs have had really bad lottery luck this time which makes it even more difficult for a small midwest market to build a team. Obviously a Brooklyn fan started this thread but a team like the Cavs can't go out in free agency and buy a Durant or Irving. Koby Altman was super green when he got the GM gig but has been learning on the job. I suspect the Cavs will turn it around at some point though.

WIth fewer or worse picks than the Cavs have had, Marks built a playoff team before Kyrie and KD signed up. Let's not make excuses here.

No one's asking why the Cavs aren't a playoff team. Just noticing that counting the years a certain player from Akron isn't on the team, Cleveland is tallying up on nearly a decade of being by far the worst team in the league. By far. In a league with the Knicks and Timberwolves.

I personally think it's their awful drafting. The only picks they've ever nailed as in bringing in a high impact guy have been Irving/LeBron, two #1s that were pretty obvious number ones, and even with that have failed with the other two #1s they had including the biggest bust of all time. And when you look at their non #1 high picks, it looks even worse...

Just a couple of reality checks here. The Cavs won 33 games the year before LBJ came back. That's not great but there were eight teams that finished with worse records and they were less than ten games out of the playoffs.

How many seasons went by in between when the Nets made the playoffs with Garnett/PP and the year they got back in as a first round exit? And how bad was that Nets team during that time period when they were gifting the Celtics key building blocks? The Cavs are half way through their third year. They didn't even get the last contract off the books from the LBJ era until last summer. It's been two and half years since LBJ walked and no team is turning it around that quickly. The Hawks and Grizzlies, who most fans believe drafted well and started their rebuilds before the Cavs, both appear to be headed back to the lottery this season.

If you're going to pile on the players they picked, then it's really incumbent upon you to point to the player they should've drafted instead who was actually available where they picked. Again, let's keep this reality based so it doesn't look like a straight troll job.

[FNQ]

Gilbert still sucks but when I watched the Cavs plays us, 2 things really stood out

1) They have oodles of young talent, but no one is at the 'premiere player' stage yet
2) They may be lacking in leadership. Watching Jarrett Allen and Colin Sexton (or maybe Garland? I forget) jaw it out, demonstratively, on the court before halftime was a little concerning. But they are young and trying to find a footing. Still, they might do well to bring in an on-court leader

[mg]

I hate to read between the lines but Brooklyn fans think the Cavs should just waive/buyout Drummond so he can sign with them. That isn't a decision the Cavs can make independently though. Drummond has to agree to a buyout. At this time he doesn't want to give up his Bird rights entering free agency. Trolling an owner on a fan forum who is still recovering from a stroke and has little day to day contact with the team is not going to accelerate any buyout.

[mg]

Gilbert still sucks but when I watched the Cavs plays us, 2 things really stood out

1) They have oodles of young talent, but no one is at the 'premiere player' stage yet
2) They may be lacking in leadership. Watching Jarrett Allen and Colin Sexton (or maybe Garland? I forget) jaw it out, demonstratively, on the court before halftime was a little concerning. But they are young and trying to find a footing. Still, they might do well to bring in an on-court leader

Strongly agree with bolded. They resigned Delly for leadership but he's been out with after a severe concussion. Exum got injured before he got traded. Love and Drummond have been out for various reasons. Drummond was a poor leader with bad body language esp after the Allen trade. They desperately need a veteran.

[nikster]

[list=][/list]

Dan Gilbert isn't great, but what Lebron does is he forces GMs to give terrible contracts and once he leaves they are stuck.

Lebron convinced the Cavs to overpay JR and Tristan.

After almost 4 months of negotiating the Cavs increased their initial offer by $2 million over 5 years. That's a miniscule difference that wouldn't have impacted the Cavs future. And what choice did the Cavs have? They were in win now mode with a star over the age of 30. They couldn't let TT walk because they had no way to otherwise fill out the roster. TT and his agent knew that.

Blaming Lebron for the TT contract is one of the laziest arguments out there

You're assuming that TT would've gotten the initial offer if he was represented by an agency that didn't also have LBJ as a client on a series of one and one contracts. He would not have. The Cavs would've told him to go test the market and bring back an offer sheet. He did, the market wasn't what he hoped, and he actually allowed the deadline for accepting the Q.O. to expire. The contracts for JR and TT were both a year too long in addition to being well over market on a yearly basis.

Why would Tristan go to the market? He knew he was a lot more valuable to the Cavs then he was to any other team. Cavs knew that, Tristan knew that, and nobody needed Lebron to tell them that. most of the "proof" for lebron tampering in that contract situation comes from comments he made months into the negotiations.

JRs contract was fine when you look at that off season. Teams had a ton of money available, tons of role players were getting paid and JR was coming off a great championship run. Even Jamal Crawford, who was 5 years older than JR, got S42 million/3 years. Other players that were signed to bigger contracts tham JR that off season: Drummond, Batum, Whiteside, Barnes, Parsons, Crabbe, Ryan Anderson, Biyombo, Deng, Noah, Mozgov, Turner, Mahinmi.

[therealbig3]

I mean, that's the cost of getting LeBron, he's not going to wait there while assets develop, he wants to win now. So to get the best player in basketball, you have to spend. And it was worth it. It got Cleveland a title, and if not for a once in a lifetime collection of talent in GS, Cleveland likely wins multiple titles. The 2017 Cavs win the title in most normal years, they were an awesome team. And the 2015 Cavs were a legit championship contender, but unfortunately they got ravaged by injuries come the Finals.

Some really bad luck for the Cavs resulted in "only" 1 title. Still worth it though.

[jbk1234]

[list=][/list]
After almost 4 months of negotiating the Cavs increased their initial offer by $2 million over 5 years. That's a miniscule difference that wouldn't have impacted the Cavs future. And what choice did the Cavs have? They were in win now mode with a star over the age of 30. They couldn't let TT walk because they had no way to otherwise fill out the roster. TT and his agent knew that.

Blaming Lebron for the TT contract is one of the laziest arguments out there

You're assuming that TT would've gotten the initial offer if he was represented by an agency that didn't also have LBJ as a client on a series of one and one contracts. He would not have. The Cavs would've told him to go test the market and bring back an offer sheet. He did, the market wasn't what he hoped, and he actually allowed the deadline for accepting the Q.O. to expire. The contracts for JR and TT were both a year too long in addition to being well over market on a yearly basis.

Why would Tristan go to the market? He knew he was a lot more valuable to the Cavs then he was to any other team. Cavs knew that, Tristan knew that, and nobody needed Lebron to tell them that. most of the "proof" for lebron tampering in that contract situation comes from comments he made months into the negotiations.

JRs contract was fine when you look at that off season. Teams had a ton of money available, tons of role players were getting paid and JR was coming off a great championship run. Even Jamal Crawford, who was 5 years older than JR, got S42 million/3 years. Other players that were signed to bigger contracts tham JR that off season: Drummond, Batum, Whiteside, Barnes, Parsons, Crabbe, Ryan Anderson, Biyombo, Deng, Noah, Mozgov, Turner, Mahinmi.

The problem with this is you're employing revisionist history. Both of TT and JR went out and tested the market.

TT didn't get an offer sheet he would sign and he let the deadline for playing on the Q.O. expire. His choices at that point were sit out and still be a RFA the following season, or agree to a new contract on the Cavs terms. Somehow, the Cavs ended up paying him $2M more than their starting position. It's a strange casino where you can lose the bet and still walk away with more chips. It wasn't just LBJ making public comments either, Klutch had essentially turned Chris Haynes, who ostensibly was still employed by the Cleveland Plain Dealer, into a PR rep who was penning columns that made very transparent threats about *hurt feelings* and the need for Dan Gilbert to get directly involved in the negotiations.

Klutch shopped JR everywhere and it wasn't until the end of the summer that the Sixers, who were just finishing up the process and sitting on a truck load of cap space, were rumored to have interest in signing him. But that's what it was going to take for JR to get anywhere close to the type of money the Cavs finally gave him. He was going to have to sign with a lottery team that was down to their tier 3 targets.

[JonFromVA]

The Cleveland Cavaliers have played 178 games since LeBron James decided in July of 2018 to leave the franchise as a free agent for the 2nd time in his career and play elsewhere.

The Cleveland franchise has won only 48 games since then. This is dead last in the NBA in that span, behind the Knicks (53), Bulls (57), and Hawks/Timberwolves (62)

In that time span they have had the most head coaches of any team in the association: Ty Lue, Larry Drew, John Beilein, and J.B Bickerstaff.

Draft picks that have made their Cavaliers debut in that time and played more than two dozen games for the team in that time include Colin Sexton (career 14.4 PER), Darius Garland (9.9), and Isaac Okoro (5.9).

Notable signings and trades include inking Kevin Love to a 4yr/120 million extension, and trading for Andre Drummond, and impending restricted free agent Jarrett Allen.


Dan Gilbert has a 43 billion dollar net worth as of 2021, making him the 2nd richest owner in the league only behind Ballmer. So what is going on here? It's no secret that the Cavaliers stint for the four years following Lebron 1.0 were also among the worst performing teams in the league in that span, but 2.5 years after LeBron 2.0's tenure ended, it seems like the franchise is in an even bigger mess, with not even an Irving type of asset in the fold to build upon. Moreover, turnover among coaching staff has been especially notable for a franchise you would expect to give a long leash for a rebuilding period.

Cavalier fans like to remark that Gilbert is a good owner because he isn't afraid to spend in the luxury tax to support a winner, or that he doesn't meddle like a Dolan or Vivek, so then what explains the teams poor fortunes, even compared to other franchises notorious for failing to reach even just mediocrity?

Part of the Cavs problem is trying to play the lottery game ... a game they won big time in 2003, did pretty well in 2010, and have either flubbed or suffered bad luck in other seasons. And unless you get lucky and get that franchise player (made all that much harder thanks to "The Process"), rebuilding via the draft can be a very slow and risky process for any team without impeccable talent evaluation.

For all of Dan's money and willingness to spend it to make the team and facilities better, he refuses to leverage it to hire a GM or President with team building experience and just cede control. That's not the way his runs his companies.

So, what's going on? A whole bunch of GM's and coaches that Dan hired because "they hadn't failed already" learning on the job.

[DowJones]

He saw his net worth go from $5.4 billion to $42.4 billion. That is a good thing.

He hasn't had much say in basketball issues since his 2019 stroke. The Cavs have had bad lottery luck the last 2 years. They have a decent little core now. If they get some lottery luck this summer, who knows.

[nikster]

You're assuming that TT would've gotten the initial offer if he was represented by an agency that didn't also have LBJ as a client on a series of one and one contracts. He would not have. The Cavs would've told him to go test the market and bring back an offer sheet. He did, the market wasn't what he hoped, and he actually allowed the deadline for accepting the Q.O. to expire. The contracts for JR and TT were both a year too long in addition to being well over market on a yearly basis.

Why would Tristan go to the market? He knew he was a lot more valuable to the Cavs then he was to any other team. Cavs knew that, Tristan knew that, and nobody needed Lebron to tell them that. most of the "proof" for lebron tampering in that contract situation comes from comments he made months into the negotiations.

JRs contract was fine when you look at that off season. Teams had a ton of money available, tons of role players were getting paid and JR was coming off a great championship run. Even Jamal Crawford, who was 5 years older than JR, got S42 million/3 years. Other players that were signed to bigger contracts tham JR that off season: Drummond, Batum, Whiteside, Barnes, Parsons, Crabbe, Ryan Anderson, Biyombo, Deng, Noah, Mozgov, Turner, Mahinmi.

The problem with this is you're employing revisionist history. Both of TT and JR went out and tested the market.

TT didn't get an offer sheet he would sign and he let the deadline for playing on the Q.O. expire. His choices at that point were sit out and still be a RFA the following season, or agree to a new contract on the Cavs terms. Somehow, the Cavs ended up paying him $2M more than their starting position. It's a strange casino where you can lose the bet and still walk away with more chips. It wasn't just LBJ making public comments either, Klutch had essentially turned Chris Haynes, who ostensibly was still employed by the Cleveland Plain Dealer, into a PR rep who was penning columns that made very transparent threats about *hurt feelings* and the need for Dan Gilbert to get directly involved in the negotiations.

Klutch shopped JR everywhere and it wasn't until the end of the summer that the Sixers, who were just finishing up the process and sitting on a truck load of cap space, were rumored to have interest in signing him. But that's what it was going to take for JR to get anywhere close to the type of money the Cavs finally gave him. He was going to have to sign with a lottery team that was down to their tier 3 targets.

TT was reportedly asking for the max of $94 million Max, not surprised he turned down qualifying offers. And yeah he could have become a RFA the next season. We saw what the contracts looked like that off season, especially for big men. Thompson would have been paid big if he waited out the entire season, probably more than he ended up getting by signing in 2015. Cavs had more to lose than Thompson if he missed the season

For JR situation, all it takes is one team competing for a player you need to drive up the price.

[ConSarnit]

Welp, in non-Lebron years since 2003 they’ve won over 25 games once. So I’m going to say it’s not looking too good.

Welp they pretty much blow thru every single asset while Lebron is on the team so of course it's going to take awhile to recover. Fans of big markets don't understand how difficult it is for smaller cold markets to build a team esp after dealing away all their picks/assets/young prospects to please someone like Lebron. Unfortunately most small market teams are turning into feeder teams for the Lakers/Nets of the world similar to baseball. If a smaller market has a window they should probably use every asset at their disposal because the window is probably going to be very small.

Like I already said several times in this thread Gilbert hasn't been involved in the day to day activites of the team since 2019 after his stroke. This has been 100% Altman's show for nearly 2 years now.

And the pre-Altman lineup that would have featured 3 NUMBER ONE PICKS you would have rolled out sans-Lebron of:

Kyrie
Waiters
Wiggins
Bennett
TT

How well do you think that would have performed?

There is a history here of pretty terrible decisions and the only constant is Dan Gilbert.

[jbk1234]

Welp, in non-Lebron years since 2003 they’ve won over 25 games once. So I’m going to say it’s not looking too good.

Welp they pretty much blow thru every single asset while Lebron is on the team so of course it's going to take awhile to recover. Fans of big markets don't understand how difficult it is for smaller cold markets to build a team esp after dealing away all their picks/assets/young prospects to please someone like Lebron. Unfortunately most small market teams are turning into feeder teams for the Lakers/Nets of the world similar to baseball. If a smaller market has a window they should probably use every asset at their disposal because the window is probably going to be very small.

Like I already said several times in this thread Gilbert hasn't been involved in the day to day activites of the team since 2019 after his stroke. This has been 100% Altman's show for nearly 2 years now.

And the pre-Altman lineup that would have featured 3 NUMBER ONE PICKS you would have rolled out sans-Lebron of:

Kyrie
Waiters
Wiggins
Bennett
TT

How well do you think that would have performed?

There is a history here of pretty terrible decisions and the only constant is Dan Gilbert.

We live in an unhealthy society where people can be repeatedly told that the man had a stroke, hasn't been involved in the day to day operations for years, and still need to try drag him anyway. Just an awful look.

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[jbk1234]

Why would Tristan go to the market? He knew he was a lot more valuable to the Cavs then he was to any other team. Cavs knew that, Tristan knew that, and nobody needed Lebron to tell them that. most of the "proof" for lebron tampering in that contract situation comes from comments he made months into the negotiations.

JRs contract was fine when you look at that off season. Teams had a ton of money available, tons of role players were getting paid and JR was coming off a great championship run. Even Jamal Crawford, who was 5 years older than JR, got S42 million/3 years. Other players that were signed to bigger contracts tham JR that off season: Drummond, Batum, Whiteside, Barnes, Parsons, Crabbe, Ryan Anderson, Biyombo, Deng, Noah, Mozgov, Turner, Mahinmi.

The problem with this is you're employing revisionist history. Both of TT and JR went out and tested the market.

TT didn't get an offer sheet he would sign and he let the deadline for playing on the Q.O. expire. His choices at that point were sit out and still be a RFA the following season, or agree to a new contract on the Cavs terms. Somehow, the Cavs ended up paying him $2M more than their starting position. It's a strange casino where you can lose the bet and still walk away with more chips. It wasn't just LBJ making public comments either, Klutch had essentially turned Chris Haynes, who ostensibly was still employed by the Cleveland Plain Dealer, into a PR rep who was penning columns that made very transparent threats about *hurt feelings* and the need for Dan Gilbert to get directly involved in the negotiations.

Klutch shopped JR everywhere and it wasn't until the end of the summer that the Sixers, who were just finishing up the process and sitting on a truck load of cap space, were rumored to have interest in signing him. But that's what it was going to take for JR to get anywhere close to the type of money the Cavs finally gave him. He was going to have to sign with a lottery team that was down to their tier 3 targets.

TT was reportedly asking for the max of $94 million Max, not surprised he turned down qualifying offers. And yeah he could have become a RFA the next season. We saw what the contracts looked like that off season, especially for big men. Thompson would have been paid big if he waited out the entire season, probably more than he ended up getting by signing in 2015. Cavs had more to lose than Thompson if he missed the season

For JR situation, all it takes is one team competing for a player you need to drive up the price.

Oh, TT was asking for a max, well that settles it I guess. I mean unless he was never a max player and no team, not even the Cavs with a metaphoric gun to their head, had any intention of offering one.

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[nikster]

The problem with this is you're employing revisionist history. Both of TT and JR went out and tested the market.

TT didn't get an offer sheet he would sign and he let the deadline for playing on the Q.O. expire. His choices at that point were sit out and still be a RFA the following season, or agree to a new contract on the Cavs terms. Somehow, the Cavs ended up paying him $2M more than their starting position. It's a strange casino where you can lose the bet and still walk away with more chips. It wasn't just LBJ making public comments either, Klutch had essentially turned Chris Haynes, who ostensibly was still employed by the Cleveland Plain Dealer, into a PR rep who was penning columns that made very transparent threats about *hurt feelings* and the need for Dan Gilbert to get directly involved in the negotiations.

Klutch shopped JR everywhere and it wasn't until the end of the summer that the Sixers, who were just finishing up the process and sitting on a truck load of cap space, were rumored to have interest in signing him. But that's what it was going to take for JR to get anywhere close to the type of money the Cavs finally gave him. He was going to have to sign with a lottery team that was down to their tier 3 targets.

TT was reportedly asking for the max of $94 million Max, not surprised he turned down qualifying offers. And yeah he could have become a RFA the next season. We saw what the contracts looked like that off season, especially for big men. Thompson would have been paid big if he waited out the entire season, probably more than he ended up getting by signing in 2015. Cavs had more to lose than Thompson if he missed the season

For JR situation, all it takes is one team competing for a player you need to drive up the price.

Oh, TT was asking for a max, well that settles it I guess. I mean unless he was never a max player and no team, not even the Cavs with a metaphoric gun to their head, had any intention of offering one.

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Well the point is he knew he was more valuable to the Cavs then other teams. His agent also knew the offers didn't matter because TT could wait out the entire season if he had to and still get paid big because of the cap spike. Judging by the 2016 off season his agent was right. Unless you don't think Tristan could have gotten paid as much if not more in 2016?

Cavs on the other hand wouldn't be able to replace TT for anything more than the minimum. They just won a championship, their star was aging, they had to win now. Letting him walk would be worse for the franchise then that contract.

TTs agent did the smart thing for his client, got him paid. There's no tampering with Lebron required to explain that contract.

[jc23]

lebron left the cavs in terrible situations both times. Gilbert is a nothing owner to be honest