2021 Playoff and Offseason Speculation - the playoffs. PLAYOFFS????

[King4Day]

Don't roast me for this. Just a thought.

If things don't work out this season, I'm not sure how high the Hawks are on Capella

Maybe something like this:

Suns trade Ayton, Jalen Smith, and Nader
for
John Collins & Capella

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5kq62gp

For those concerned about how much Collins will make, assume it'll be close to what Ayton will too.
If we're going all in with Paul here, this could give us what we need at every position.

[Barkley6]

Don't roast me for this. Just a thought.

If things don't work out this season, I'm not sure how high the Hawks are on Capella

Maybe something like this:

Suns trade Ayton, Jalen Smith, and Nader
for
John Collins & Capella

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5kq62gp

For those concerned about how much Collins will make, assume it'll be close to what Ayton will too.
If we're going all in with Paul here, this could give us what we need at every position.

Don't think you can trade Nader after the season because he's on an expiring deal.

It's intriguing, I think it definitely makes us better. Not sure what Atlanta's incentive is for doing it though.

[King4Day]

Don't roast me for this. Just a thought.

If things don't work out this season, I'm not sure how high the Hawks are on Capella

Maybe something like this:

Suns trade Ayton, Jalen Smith, and Nader
for
John Collins & Capella

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5kq62gp

For those concerned about how much Collins will make, assume it'll be close to what Ayton will too.
If we're going all in with Paul here, this could give us what we need at every position.

Don't think you can trade Nader after the season because he's on an expiring deal.

It's intriguing, I think it definitely makes us better. Not sure what Atlanta's incentive is for doing it though.

Good call on Nader. I'm sure they can figure that out.
That would be the general basis around it. I'm sure there'd be other moving parts.

The talk is Atlanta wants a lottery pick for Collins. Smith fits the bill. I'd even consider our first this year if it's done after the draft.
If they don't want to pay Collins and it's possible he has issues with Trae (though that was probably blown out of proportion), this could be a good deal in that regard.
They get Smith and possibly another first.
And swapping Ayton and Capella gives us a good defensive presence in the paint still. Let's Paul still have a pick and roll partner too.

Not saying it's time to dump Ayton but he's also due for a big extension so it depends on our needs and if we really want to go all-in right now (which we probably should as our window it about 2-3 years including this one).

[Barkley6]

Don't roast me for this. Just a thought.

If things don't work out this season, I'm not sure how high the Hawks are on Capella

Maybe something like this:

Suns trade Ayton, Jalen Smith, and Nader
for
John Collins & Capella

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5kq62gp

For those concerned about how much Collins will make, assume it'll be close to what Ayton will too.
If we're going all in with Paul here, this could give us what we need at every position.

Don't think you can trade Nader after the season because he's on an expiring deal.

It's intriguing, I think it definitely makes us better. Not sure what Atlanta's incentive is for doing it though.

Good call on Nader. I'm sure they can figure that out.
That would be the general basis around it. I'm sure there'd be other moving parts.

The talk is Atlanta wants a lottery pick for Collins. Smith fits the bill. I'd even consider our first this year if it's done after the draft.
If they don't want to pay Collins and it's possible he has issues with Trae (though that was probably blown out of proportion), this could be a good deal in that regard.
They get Smith and possibly another first.
And swapping Ayton and Capella gives us a good defensive presence in the paint still. Let's Paul still have a pick and roll partner too.

Not saying it's time to dump Ayton but he's also due for a big extension so it depends on our needs and if we really want to go all-in right now (which we probably should as our window it about 2-3 years including this one).

I dunno that Smith really does fit the bill for them, he's not shown anything like lottery level talent and while I think he'll end up being a solid pro, Atlanta would have to rate him pretty highly. Atlanta would almost certainly ask for Bridges or Johnson to be part of that deal and I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on either one of them just yet. I also find it unlikely Atlanta would trade both of their starting big men, especially when they are certainly in the playoff hunt at this point in the year, though that could obviously change by the trade deadline.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Don't think you can trade Nader after the season because he's on an expiring deal.

It's intriguing, I think it definitely makes us better. Not sure what Atlanta's incentive is for doing it though.

Good call on Nader. I'm sure they can figure that out.
That would be the general basis around it. I'm sure there'd be other moving parts.

The talk is Atlanta wants a lottery pick for Collins. Smith fits the bill. I'd even consider our first this year if it's done after the draft.
If they don't want to pay Collins and it's possible he has issues with Trae (though that was probably blown out of proportion), this could be a good deal in that regard.
They get Smith and possibly another first.
And swapping Ayton and Capella gives us a good defensive presence in the paint still. Let's Paul still have a pick and roll partner too.

Not saying it's time to dump Ayton but he's also due for a big extension so it depends on our needs and if we really want to go all-in right now (which we probably should as our window it about 2-3 years including this one).

I dunno that Smith really does fit the bill for them, he's not shown anything like lottery level talent and while I think he'll end up being a solid pro, Atlanta would have to rate him pretty highly. Atlanta would almost certainly ask for Bridges or Johnson to be part of that deal and I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on either one of them just yet. I also find it unlikely Atlanta would trade both of their starting big men, especially when they are certainly in the playoff hunt at this point in the year, though that could obviously change by the trade deadline.

I've been disappointed in CamJo this season. I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal for Collins. Pay him. Then pay Bridges and DA. And your backup PG (whether that's Cam or someone else). I'll include Smith if they'll include one of their young wings (not that I'm particularly interested in any of them except Hunter, who I'm sure is not on the table).

Bogdan has really struggled for them so maybe there's something that can be worked out there. I would include Carter and Saric, if needed.

.... Damn. ATL is really a pretty ideal trade partner for us if we want to really go all-in. It's hard to imagine trading Ayton but I guess--though I'm not at all interested in dealing him--if I was trading him in any case, I'd call ATL.

[bwgood77]

I also would not be surprised if he got better. I am not sure the Suns will have the patience with him, which is not fair for DA. The problem is that the Suns have a roster that is ready to win now and on a timeline. Other than Vuc, I don’t see other bigs that would improve our team that’s attainable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only player is KAT. If he didn't just say he wants to build a culture with the Wolves, and possibly said he'd prefer to play elsewhere. I think we could have potentially offered DA, one of Dario or Crowder (salary matching purposes), Jalen Smith and Jevon Carter, plus 5 1st round picks for KAT. Though the Wolves may push for Cam or Bridges, however seeing how they just drafted Anthony Edwards and Vanderbilt the year prior, maybe they wouldn't want them. But yeah, that would be my offer.

I was thinking about KAT too but there's no way they just take Ayton and our bench guys and a few late round 1sts. If we made that trade, I'm guessing the conversation starts at Ayton AND Bridges. There's no way Minny would except less. Half the league would be blowing up their phone. We'd have to give up Ayton, Bridges, cpl 1sts and matching salary to pull it off.

We aren't getting him for Carter, Stix and various dudes we don't play. It would help if him and Booker worked some under the table stuff, but still Wolves wouldn't take a random package for their franchise player.

I might try to offer Ayton, Cam and Crowder. But we do lose 3/4 depth...Crowder and all of those guys wouldn't be happy. We'd still need a little more money so probably Stix too...maybe 2 firsts and potentially future swaps (swaps sooner wouldn't benefit them).

[bwgood77]

Don't roast me for this. Just a thought.

If things don't work out this season, I'm not sure how high the Hawks are on Capella

Maybe something like this:

Suns trade Ayton, Jalen Smith, and Nader
for
John Collins & Capella

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5kq62gp

For those concerned about how much Collins will make, assume it'll be close to what Ayton will too.
If we're going all in with Paul here, this could give us what we need at every position.

Don't have NEARLY the salary. Capela makes over $35 million the next two years and Collins wants a max.

Also couldn't trade for Collins after the season as he'd be a restricted FA.

It would have to be a trade this season but still, couldn't afford them next year.

And Hawks want to make playoffs so don't see them making that move anyway.

[bwgood77]

Good call on Nader. I'm sure they can figure that out.
That would be the general basis around it. I'm sure there'd be other moving parts.

The talk is Atlanta wants a lottery pick for Collins. Smith fits the bill. I'd even consider our first this year if it's done after the draft.
If they don't want to pay Collins and it's possible he has issues with Trae (though that was probably blown out of proportion), this could be a good deal in that regard.
They get Smith and possibly another first.
And swapping Ayton and Capella gives us a good defensive presence in the paint still. Let's Paul still have a pick and roll partner too.

Not saying it's time to dump Ayton but he's also due for a big extension so it depends on our needs and if we really want to go all-in right now (which we probably should as our window it about 2-3 years including this one).

I dunno that Smith really does fit the bill for them, he's not shown anything like lottery level talent and while I think he'll end up being a solid pro, Atlanta would have to rate him pretty highly. Atlanta would almost certainly ask for Bridges or Johnson to be part of that deal and I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on either one of them just yet. I also find it unlikely Atlanta would trade both of their starting big men, especially when they are certainly in the playoff hunt at this point in the year, though that could obviously change by the trade deadline.

I've been disappointed in CamJo this season. I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal for Collins. Pay him. Then pay Bridges and DA. And your backup PG (whether that's Cam or someone else). I'll include Smith if they'll include one of their young wings (not that I'm particularly interested in any of them except Hunter, who I'm sure is not on the table).

Bogdan has really struggled for them so maybe there's something that can be worked out there. I would include Carter and Saric, if needed.

.... Damn. ATL is really a pretty ideal trade partner for us if we want to really go all-in. It's hard to imagine trading Ayton but I guess--though I'm not at all interested in dealing him--if I was trading him in any case, I'd call ATL.

Collins not worth a max. It kills our cap next year and then add Bridges when Paul falls off. If Paul was to stay, he'd need to take a small deal.

I don't think you want Collins playing C either.

[darealjuice]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

[RedIndian]

I also would not be surprised if he got better. I am not sure the Suns will have the patience with him, which is not fair for DA. The problem is that the Suns have a roster that is ready to win now and on a timeline. Other than Vuc, I don’t see other bigs that would improve our team that’s attainable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only player is KAT. If he didn't just say he wants to build a culture with the Wolves, and possibly said he'd prefer to play elsewhere. I think we could have potentially offered DA, one of Dario or Crowder (salary matching purposes), Jalen Smith and Jevon Carter, plus 5 1st round picks for KAT. Though the Wolves may push for Cam or Bridges, however seeing how they just drafted Anthony Edwards and Vanderbilt the year prior, maybe they wouldn't want them. But yeah, that would be my offer.

I was thinking about KAT too but there's no way they just take Ayton and our bench guys and a few late round 1sts. If we made that trade, I'm guessing the conversation starts at Ayton AND Bridges. There's no way Minny would except less. Half the league would be blowing up their phone. We'd have to give up Ayton, Bridges, cpl 1sts and matching salary to pull it off.

We aren't getting him for Carter, Stix and various dudes we don't play. It would help if him and Booker worked some under the table stuff, but still Wolves wouldn't take a random package for their franchise player.

The Wolves have been so bad for so long that it's absolutely conceivable that KAT demands a trade this off-season. I would expect that the Suns would be one of his preferred destinations given the Booker connection, and of course CP3.

If we can get it done with say Ayton, Cam Johnson + picks, that's definitely worth considering. It's not entirely risk free though - KAT seems to be hugely injury prone, and I'm not very comfortable building a team with a weak defensive player at center. For all of Ayton's flaws, I think he pans out as an above-average defender, which is very valuable at the 5 spot. He's been an important part of having a top 5 defense in the league so far.

[bwgood77]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

Yes, I generally don't think his value would be as high as people think...at least across the NBA...but of course it just takes one team that believes in him.

He still has enormous upside given his age, size, skills, athleticism, and willingness to listen to coaches and teammates to try and improve.

I think if he can develop a 3 that will help a lot. I am not all that big on traditional centers posting up or taking it to the rim a lot against multiple defenders. It's nice to have, and get to the line like last night, but being more versatile and adding a 3 is probably more important, particularly with how effective he is contesting shots and with screens resulting in baskets as I posted the #s in the Ayton thread.

[Slim Charless]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

Yes, I generally don't think his value would be as high as people think...at least across the NBA...but of course it just takes one team that believes in him.

He still has enormous upside given his age, size, skills, athleticism, and willingness to listen to coaches and teammates to try and improve.

I think if he can develop a 3 that will help a lot. I am not all that big on traditional centers posting up or taking it to the rim a lot against multiple defenders. It's nice to have, and get to the line like last night, but being more versatile and adding a 3 is probably more important, particularly with how effective he is contesting shots and with screens resulting in baskets as I posted the #s in the Ayton thread.

Only player is KAT. If he didn't just say he wants to build a culture with the Wolves, and possibly said he'd prefer to play elsewhere. I think we could have potentially offered DA, one of Dario or Crowder (salary matching purposes), Jalen Smith and Jevon Carter, plus 5 1st round picks for KAT. Though the Wolves may push for Cam or Bridges, however seeing how they just drafted Anthony Edwards and Vanderbilt the year prior, maybe they wouldn't want them. But yeah, that would be my offer.

I was thinking about KAT too but there's no way they just take Ayton and our bench guys and a few late round 1sts. If we made that trade, I'm guessing the conversation starts at Ayton AND Bridges. There's no way Minny would except less. Half the league would be blowing up their phone. We'd have to give up Ayton, Bridges, cpl 1sts and matching salary to pull it off.

We aren't getting him for Carter, Stix and various dudes we don't play. It would help if him and Booker worked some under the table stuff, but still Wolves wouldn't take a random package for their franchise player.

The Wolves have been so bad for so long that it's absolutely conceivable that KAT demands a trade this off-season. I would expect that the Suns would be one of his preferred destinations given the Booker connection, and of course CP3.

If we can get it done with say Ayton, Cam Johnson + picks, that's definitely worth considering. It's not entirely risk free though - KAT seems to be hugely injury prone, and I'm not very comfortable building a team with a weak defensive player at center. For all of Ayton's flaws, I think he pans out as an above-average defender, which is very valuable at the 5 spot. He's been an important part of having a top 5 defense in the league so far.

I just don't see MN saying yes to any deal that doesn't involve Bridges. They need a SF and actual good players, extra picks don't mean much to them. Having Book here helps but MN isn't gonna send him here just cause he might want to go here. Other teams can beat the Ayton/Stix/Cam combo-easily. Atlanta has a ton of young guys and Boston the way they're going would offer up Brown and more. This is not even including all the other surprise teams.

For the record though, I'm not even saying that we should trade DA. I mean we are having our best year in over a decade and outside of CP3, we are still very young. If anything we need to just hold the line and see about getting an understudy for Paul in the draft.

[darealjuice]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

Yes, I generally don't think his value would be as high as people think...at least across the NBA...but of course it just takes one team that believes in him.

He still has enormous upside given his age, size, skills, athleticism, and willingness to listen to coaches and teammates to try and improve.

I think if he can develop a 3 that will help a lot. I am not all that big on traditional centers posting up or taking it to the rim a lot against multiple defenders. It's nice to have, and get to the line like last night, but being more versatile and adding a 3 is probably more important, particularly with how effective he is contesting shots and with screens resulting in baskets as I posted the #s in the Ayton thread.

I don't really care about him shooting 3s if he can't get it done in the paint. What good does camping him on the 3-point line do for him? Ideally he forces teams to guard him out there, but more realistically they'll just let him shoot until he earns their respect. It's not like he'd be able to attack hard closeouts anyways. Not to mention putting him on the 3-point line negates his offensive rebounding, which is probably his most valuable skill on offense.

[Wilber85]

I would take Ayton over Collins any day of the week.

[bwgood77]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

Yes, I generally don't think his value would be as high as people think...at least across the NBA...but of course it just takes one team that believes in him.

He still has enormous upside given his age, size, skills, athleticism, and willingness to listen to coaches and teammates to try and improve.

I think if he can develop a 3 that will help a lot. I am not all that big on traditional centers posting up or taking it to the rim a lot against multiple defenders. It's nice to have, and get to the line like last night, but being more versatile and adding a 3 is probably more important, particularly with how effective he is contesting shots and with screens resulting in baskets as I posted the #s in the Ayton thread.

I was thinking about KAT too but there's no way they just take Ayton and our bench guys and a few late round 1sts. If we made that trade, I'm guessing the conversation starts at Ayton AND Bridges. There's no way Minny would except less. Half the league would be blowing up their phone. We'd have to give up Ayton, Bridges, cpl 1sts and matching salary to pull it off.

We aren't getting him for Carter, Stix and various dudes we don't play. It would help if him and Booker worked some under the table stuff, but still Wolves wouldn't take a random package for their franchise player.

The Wolves have been so bad for so long that it's absolutely conceivable that KAT demands a trade this off-season. I would expect that the Suns would be one of his preferred destinations given the Booker connection, and of course CP3.

If we can get it done with say Ayton, Cam Johnson + picks, that's definitely worth considering. It's not entirely risk free though - KAT seems to be hugely injury prone, and I'm not very comfortable building a team with a weak defensive player at center. For all of Ayton's flaws, I think he pans out as an above-average defender, which is very valuable at the 5 spot. He's been an important part of having a top 5 defense in the league so far.

I just don't see MN saying yes to any deal that doesn't involve Bridges. They need a SF and actual good players, extra picks don't mean much to them. Having Book here helps but MN isn't gonna send him here just cause he might want to go here. Other teams can beat the Ayton/Stix/Cam combo-easily. Atlanta has a ton of young guys and Boston the way they're going would offer up Brown and more. This is not even including all the other surprise teams.

For the record though, I'm not even saying that we should trade DA. I mean we are having our best year in over a decade and outside of CP3, we are still very young. If anything we need to just hold the line and see about getting an understudy for Paul in the draft.

Yeah, the fact that we are playing so well with Ayton and he still is only 22 with a lot of upside, I don't think he should be traded either barring a great deal. The rookie contract is nice too and it's hard to find equal value with his contract.

Regarding Bridges in Minnesota. I agree they would rather have them, however, I think they'd also love a player like Cam. Edwards and Culver, their last two picks, cannot shoot from outside so they really could use a sharpshooter. They also have Okogie who is a good defender.

[bwgood77]

I'd be curious to know what Ayton's trade value around the league even is right now. It's not like traditional centers are hot commodities. All it took was Exum and Milwaukee's 2022 likely late first round pick to get a young guy Jarrett Allen. Ayton should get more, but would it be enough to move the needle? I definitely couldn't see Atlanta giving up Collins AND Capela for Ayton and some change, you could already argue that both of them are at a similar level to Ayton.

Yes, I generally don't think his value would be as high as people think...at least across the NBA...but of course it just takes one team that believes in him.

He still has enormous upside given his age, size, skills, athleticism, and willingness to listen to coaches and teammates to try and improve.

I think if he can develop a 3 that will help a lot. I am not all that big on traditional centers posting up or taking it to the rim a lot against multiple defenders. It's nice to have, and get to the line like last night, but being more versatile and adding a 3 is probably more important, particularly with how effective he is contesting shots and with screens resulting in baskets as I posted the #s in the Ayton thread.

I don't really care about him shooting 3s if he can't get it done in the paint. What good does camping him on the 3-point line do for him? Ideally he forces teams to guard him out there, but more realistically they'll just let him shoot until he earns their respect. It's not like he'd be able to attack hard closeouts anyways. Not to mention putting him on the 3-point line negates his offensive rebounding, which is probably his most valuable skill on offense.

Well you have a ton of Cs shooting 3s and it helps give driving lanes for your great drivers like Book, Bridges and Ayton. KAT, Lopez, etc, help their teams due to spreading the floor.

I'm talking about developing a reliable 3 where they feel they have to cover him. Of course I don't want him camping out there at all if he is shooting 30%.

I was thinking he is actually a lot like Brook Lopez was coming into the league, but with better rebounding. Lopez was a good scorer inside, but not an aggressive one...more just scoring with short shots or putting in things. He was always good at contesting shots as well (still is). He was never a great rebounder though which hurt. Then he added the great 3 pt shooting.

Of course I want Ayton to drive more and be aggressive more inside, but we've seen it a little and it should keep progressing.

[TouchPassDario]

I would take Ayton over Collins any day of the week.

Ayton gets taken by Harden (like 3 times) and Melo once after both those guys roasted and toasted Mikal ALL DEFENSE Bridges and our other wings all game and it’s time to give up on his perimeter defense, which was excellent for his position both before and after Harden game?

Amazing how badly ya’ll take a loss here and there.

Ayton played ~fine last night. He’s 22. He will run hot and cold at times. What matters the most is his ceiling and ability to guard top flight guys in top flight moments. Trading him for guys like Collins and/or Capela who have clearly demonstrated an inability to slow down guys like Joker or Vuc or Dame or Murray or Luka is just insanity.

Fans are the WORST.

[Qwigglez]

I'd love to believe Ayton is still developing but he just seemed to have taken a step back offensively. I remember earlier in the year he mentioned watching some film of CP3 and DeAndre Jordan back with the Clippers so he can learn what angles DJ took to get good feeds from CP3. I thought that would be huge for his development, but instead I see Ayton hesitating rolling to the rim, hiding behind his defender, taking bad cuts, etc. It honestly looks like he is purposely putting himself in a position to not get the ball.

Here's a clip I posted to my Twitter, and I think could have changed the outcome of the game, had Ayton caught the ball. Easily at the very least 2 points, two FT's or maybe even an And1.

Read on Twitter

[TouchPassDario]

“What good does developing a 3 do” for a hyper athletic center who is an elite paint finisher on a team with great guards?

da real juice, just wow. Do you even basketball?

[bwgood77]

I'd love to believe Ayton is still developing but he just seemed to have taken a step back offensively. I remember earlier in the year he mentioned watching some film of CP3 and DeAndre Jordan back with the Clippers so he can learn what angles DJ took to get good feeds from CP3. I thought that would be huge for his development, but instead I see Ayton hesitating rolling to the rim, hiding behind his defender, taking bad cuts, etc. It honestly looks like he is purposely putting himself in a position to not get the ball.

Here's a clip I posted to my Twitter, and I think could have changed the outcome of the game, had Ayton caught the ball. Easily at the very least 2 points, two FT's or maybe even an And1.

Read on Twitter

I wanted to see a replay of that, because I remember it hit one hand, and I was wondering about the pass. Looks like DA wasn't expecting it and was kind of turned the wrong way and tried to grab it with the wrong hand.

It wasn't a very good pass since it was behind him and he had to turn, but he still should have probably caught it. Booker should have just lobbed it high in front of him instead of passing like that. Ayton should have caught but both could have done better.