So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and rumors

[zaz102]

Can you define “creator”?

Because if you mean creating shots, I have Embiid by a huge margin (probably a couple of solar system) then Tobi.

Percentage of field goals scored, unassisted. Particularly inside the arc because those are in the teeth of the defense. Guys that are assisted less are better creators, obviously.

1. Maxey - 33.7%
2. Milton - 35.2%
3. Harris - 39.2%
4. Simmons - 39.4%

Barnes at 57.8% and Ross at 52.3% are more in line with ancillary scorers like Seth Curry (59.7%) and Furkan Korkmaz (55.6%).

If you compare the scoring production, those guys are similar to Shake, but Milton is just on another level in terms of value based on his shotcreation.

I don't entirely agree that being assisted less automatically makes you a better creator. Take Tobias for example. He's able to capitalize on advantages better than most of our players. When Tobias receives a pass and has a slight angle on his defender, he's done a really great job of using his strength and quickness to capitalize on that angle and score. Even though it's counting as an assisted bucket, Tobias is still "creating" an opportunity to score that another player might not have.

Another point would be when you have players that open up shots like Simmons and Embiid do, it offers less opportunities for unassisted buckets. So I'm a little skeptical that Shake and Maxey are the best shot creators on the team. Put them on the first team and their percentage would go down.

However, it does seem it may be helpful as an indicator when looking for potential trade options as long as taken in context.

[Kobblehead]

So I'm a little skeptical that Shake and Maxey are the best shot creators on the team. Put them on the first team and their percentage would go down.

That's where you draw into a bigger sample size for more context.

In regards to Milton, he ran with the first unit last year and was only assisted on 38% of his buckets inside the arc. His shotcreation appears to be a legit trait.

In regard to Maxey, it's a no brainer. His dribbling and arsenal of scoring moves are noticeably excellent and he was a known multi-level unassisted scoring assassin at the collegiate level.

[zaz102]

So I'm a little skeptical that Shake and Maxey are the best shot creators on the team. Put them on the first team and their percentage would go down.

That's where you draw into a bigger sample size for more context.

In regards to Milton, he ran with the first unit last year and was only assisted on 38% of his buckets inside the arc. His shotcreation appears to be a legit trait.

In regard to Maxey, it's a no brainer. His dribbling and arsenal of scoring moves are noticeably excellent and he was a known multi-level unassisted scoring assassin at the collegiate level.

Good points. It definitely seems like a good indicator and something I never really thought of to look at before. Seems very useful for the Sixers if they are trying to upgrade their roster.

[Kobblehead]

So I'm a little skeptical that Shake and Maxey are the best shot creators on the team. Put them on the first team and their percentage would go down.

That's where you draw into a bigger sample size for more context.

In regards to Milton, he ran with the first unit last year and was only assisted on 38% of his buckets inside the arc. His shotcreation appears to be a legit trait.

In regard to Maxey, it's a no brainer. His dribbling and arsenal of scoring moves are noticeably excellent and he was a known multi-level unassisted scoring assassin at the collegiate level.

Good points. It definitely seems like a good indicator and something I never really thought of to look at before. Seems very useful for the Sixers if they are trying to upgrade their roster.

Yes, it's very useful in being able to see beyond the "PPG facade" and distinguishing guys that can actually score buckets versus guys with bloated fake scoring production aided by assisted buckets (cough Jerami Grant cough).

A nice tiny example of this is examining our trade with Golden State last year. We traded for two guys averaging 12+ ppg but only one of them had an impact with us (Burks). The guy assisted on only 38% of his career buckets inside the arc as opposed to the guy assisted on a whopping 71% of his buckets (Robinson).

[Sixerscan]

Maxey’s number is inflated by that covid week that I wouldn’t even consider nba level basketball.

The other thing is just because he can score unassisted baskets doesn’t mean it results in good offense. The Sixers have terrible efficiency numbers with Maxey on the court especially without Embiid which indicates that building an offense around a rookie throwing floaters up is not a good idea.

Also the other part of his unassisted percentage being higher is he’s just not good at making shots off the catch at this point, which makes him hard to play with our best players.

Maxey has potential but he’s just not a good player right now which is why Doc has glued him to the bench since Shake came back.

[Sixerscan]

Spoiler:

Sorry, maybe its my misunderstanding.

I was referring to youngcrev’s reply to why i keep wanting to trade Shake.

Simply, I want to trade shake so we can leverage our assets with our expiring and time so we can get a really good player without having to trade Ben and even possibly Tobi.

It’s not just a pick swap with our low end first and another team’s lottery, but Im getting either Barnes or Ross. Both guys can be the scorer we need off the bench.

If we need a point guard, then we can probably sign another PG. Or even trade Barnes or Ross and a couple of second rounders for Lowry. Maybe even add Maxey.

Kings:
Shake Milton
Expiring contract
- young player and cap relief

Raptors:
Harrison Barnes
Tyrese Maxey
2nd Round Pick
- player who can contribute now and a player who can contribute later

Sixers:
Lowry
Kings lottery pick via pick swap
- lowry being a big upgrade over milton and maxey then also adding a likely lottery pick via pick swap


That way you can get Lowry and a lottery pick with just Milton, expiring contracts and 2nd rounders.

You’d then become a much better team right now (Milton+Maxey for Lowry) then a much better team in the future (lottery).

But yeah, these are all just fantasy trades and im just throwing out ideas. Im not saying these are easy trades to pull off.

I just responded to your latest post, was a general reaction to these trades you are proposing. Yes that trade would make us better now and in the future, but that is probably a sign that it isn’t a fair trade.

I don’t see why a lottery team would do an unprotected pick swap with a contending team for a backup point guard. If Shake had that much value I feel like the Sixers would just trade him for this contending player you want them to trade this pick for. Contending teams generally don’t trade for draft picks outside of weird situations like the Cavs and Kyrie.

Agree with your sentiment.

But then read a couple of posts above this post and you have them not wanting to trade for Barnes even if we are compensated with the PROJECTED 6TH OVERALL PICK. And that lead me to being lost.

Not referring to you sixerscan. But guys.. please read my proposal.

Im not trading for Barnes or Ross. It’s just a diversion. My real intent was to acquire that lottery pick while I dont want us to have a setback this season so we get Barnes or Ross in return to play Milton’s role. While yeah, no sane team will just handover their lottery picks without any garbage (bad contract?)

Well at least in your post about Barnes you just said “a pick swap” and presumably people just glossed over that/assumed you didn’t mean the Kings would be giving us the 6th overall pick in the 2021 draft for Shake Milton because that just seems completely unrealistic.

[Kobblehead]

Other than Fultz, Maxey is the only draft pick we made in the last half decade that had shotcreation as a pre-loaded skill. It didn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out that he'd lead us in unassisted field goals the moment time he stepped on the court.

It would be different if we drafted Ingram over Simmons. Or Fultz panned out. Or we drafted Alexander over Bridges. Or if we traded up in 2019 for Walker or something.

[youngcrev]

Maxey’s number is inflated by that covid week that I wouldn’t even consider nba level basketball.

The other thing is just because he can score unassisted baskets doesn’t mean it results in good offense. The Sixers have terrible efficiency numbers with Maxey on the court especially without Embiid which indicates that building an offense around a rookie throwing floaters up is not a good idea.

Also the other part of his unassisted percentage being higher is he’s just not good at making shots off the catch at this point, which makes him hard to play with our best players.

Maxey has potential but he’s just not a good player right now which is why Doc has glued him to the bench since Shake came back.

This.

The ability to get unassisted FG is a great trait (and one we could use more of), but simply looking at that percentage isn't the best indicator of that ability, particularly since optimally we'd have a guy that can do that AND be a catch and shoot threat. Shake fits that description, Maxey does not.

[Sixerscan]

Other than Fultz, Maxey is the only draft pick we made in the last half decade that had shotcreation as a pre-loaded skill. It didn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out that he'd lead us in unassisted field goals the moment time he stepped on the court.

It would be different if we drafted Ingram over Simmons. Or Fultz panned out. Or we drafted Alexander over Bridges. Or if we traded up in 2019 for Walker or something.

Sure, he’s basically the only guard they’ve taken in the first round besides Fultz and Shamet who is a different player. Doesn’t mean he’s good at it yet though, and a major reason why the unassisted percentage is high is because he’s probably the worst off the ball guy on the team and so he tends to not get baskets that way.

Like if Seth Curry suddenly forgot how to shoot his unassisted percentage would probably increase and if Maxey suddenly figured out how to shoot his unassisted percentage would decrease.

[Kobblehead]

Maxey was an 83%+ free throw shooter in college. He'll definitely be able to space off the ball as a catch and shoot threat from beyond the arc sometime during his rookie contract.

He'll show signs in year 2 and then be an outright on/off beast in year three. Not too unlike Shai this year.

[Sixerscan]

Maxey was an 83%+ free throw shooter in college. He'll definitely be able to space off the ball as a catch and shoot threat from beyond the arc sometime during his rookie contract.

He'll show signs in year 2 and then be an outright on/off beast in year three. Not too unlike Shai this year.

Yeah I’m not out on him as a prospect or anything just saying for this team right now he’s not a good offensive player. And at 20 years old I wouldn’t expect him to be.

[Kobblehead]

Sure, he’s basically the only guard they’ve taken in the first round besides Fultz and Shamet who is a different player. Doesn’t mean he’s good at it yet though, and a major reason why the unassisted percentage is high is because he’s probably the worst off the ball guy on the team and so he tends to not get baskets that way.

Like if Seth Curry suddenly forgot how to shoot his unassisted percentage would probably increase and if Maxey suddenly figured out how to shoot his unassisted percentage would decrease.

That's not really how that works, though. Learning how to shoot won't change the percentage of buckets he scores inside the arc that are assisted. It just means he'll be converting more assists beyond the arc. Check Brandon Ingram pre-jumper and look at him post-jumper. If anything, he scores even more unassisted buckets inside the arc because people have to close out on his jumper more.

Lakers iteration of Brandon Ingram at 0.7 threes made per game: 36.2% assisted inside the arc
Pelicans iteration of Brandon Ingram at 2.4 threes made per game: 31.6% assisted inside the arc

[Kobblehead]

Maxey was an 83%+ free throw shooter in college. He'll definitely be able to space off the ball as a catch and shoot threat from beyond the arc sometime during his rookie contract.

He'll show signs in year 2 and then be an outright on/off beast in year three. Not too unlike Shai this year.

Yeah I’m not out on him as a prospect or anything just saying for this team right now he’s not a good offensive player. And at 20 years old I wouldn’t expect him to be.

I agree. I make jokes about Doc not letting Maxey cook but I understand why he doesn't. Maxey is a bad defender and he doesn't space the floor off the ball yet. And he's young and mistake-prone.

I'm REAL excited about year 2 and year 3 from Maxey, though. I think he's going to be a phenomenal on/off threat for us. And if he ever learns how to play PG, he could even reach Lou Williams upside as a pseudo bench star.

[Sixerscan]

Sure, he’s basically the only guard they’ve taken in the first round besides Fultz and Shamet who is a different player. Doesn’t mean he’s good at it yet though, and a major reason why the unassisted percentage is high is because he’s probably the worst off the ball guy on the team and so he tends to not get baskets that way.

Like if Seth Curry suddenly forgot how to shoot his unassisted percentage would probably increase and if Maxey suddenly figured out how to shoot his unassisted percentage would decrease.

That's not really how that works, though. Learning how to shoot won't change the percentage of buckets he scores inside the arc that are assisted. It just means he'll be converting more assists beyond the arc. Check Brandon Ingram pre-jumper and look at him post-jumper. If anything, he scores even more unassisted buckets inside the arc because people have to close out on his jumper more.

Lakers iteration of Brandon Ingram at 0.7 threes made per game: 36.2% assisted inside the arc
Pelicans iteration of Brandon Ingram at 2.4 threes made per game: 31.6% assisted inside the arc

Oh ok, I missed the part about this only being about inside the arc, that makes more sense.

[76ciology]

I like Maxey. But he needs to make a jump (not just subtle improvement like ben’s freethrow lol)with his shooting, which is very possible given his foundation.

What is his upside? Personally, it’s more like all-star Jeff Teague and Jrue to me.

Until then, he’s unplayable for a team like us.

While he’s not untradable. If we can get a lottery pick in the upcoming draft in return, we should take that advantage IMO.

[76ciology]

Regarding Milton, don’t mind his percentages. He’s a very good C&S shooter and a good PnR player.

But his ball handling is really bad so is his ability to create off the dribble. It’s Andrew Wiggins robotic movement bad.

And because of this I do think he is a good player, a winning player but his value won’t be as high as what it is right now and I’d like to use him to be a bridge from what we are right now to what we want to be.

Alternative is to look at the usual suspects, Ben and Tobi.

[spikeslovechild]

Maxey was an 83%+ free throw shooter in college. He'll definitely be able to space off the ball as a catch and shoot threat from beyond the arc sometime during his rookie contract.

He'll show signs in year 2 and then be an outright on/off beast in year three. Not too unlike Shai this year.

His 3pt shot is all kinds of wrong though. I mean it needs work

[Kobblehead]

I like Maxey. But he needs to make a jump (not just subtle improvement like ben’s freethrow lol)with his shooting, which is very possible given his foundation.

What is his upside? Personally, it’s more like all-star Jeff Teague and Jrue to me.

Until then, he’s unplayable for a team like us.

While he’s not untradable. If we can get a lottery pick in the upcoming draft in return, we should take that advantage IMO.

If Maxey had the jumper developed, he'd look a lot like Brandon Knight and Coby White. Since he doesn't have the jumper, he reminds me of a shorter version of early Jordan Clarkson. The jumper will come, we just have to be patient.

What if the lottery pick doesn't result in an underclassman creator, though? Then we're back to square one and the timeline gets pushed back.

Goal: Secure the young creators via the draft and then you develop them.

We gotta keep Maxey, IMO.

[LeonJordanJr24]

Green, picks and expirings for Lowry
Tobi for Derozan


Shotcreation issues solved


Embiid
Simmons
derozon/ Thybulle
curry/ maxey / joe
Lowry / Shake /

[76ciology]

I like Maxey. But he needs to make a jump (not just subtle improvement like ben’s freethrow lol)with his shooting, which is very possible given his foundation.

What is his upside? Personally, it’s more like all-star Jeff Teague and Jrue to me.

Until then, he’s unplayable for a team like us.

While he’s not untradable. If we can get a lottery pick in the upcoming draft in return, we should take that advantage IMO.

If Maxey had the jumper developed, he'd look a lot like Brandon Knight and Coby White. Since he doesn't have the jumper, he reminds me of a shorter version of early Jordan Clarkson. The jumper will come, we just have to be patient.

What if the lottery pick doesn't result in an underclassman creator, though? Then we're back to square one and the timeline gets pushed back.

Goal: Secure the young creators via the draft and then you develop them.

We gotta keep Maxey, IMO.

Accuracy is the intersection of inside view and outside view.

So you mean there are teams who will be willing to trade a top 10 pick in next year’s lottery for Maxey?