Lets talk Zach Lavine

[AKfanatic]

Lavine vs Butler... I’d take Lavine if I needed a scorer the first 3ish quarters...

Beyond that?... I’d take Butler if I need someone to defend a top wing or hit shots in the clutch.

Both players are gifted, but both are so different. Butler has that old school, dog in him, type game. His will to succeed and drive to be the best he can is obvious given what he’s become as a player.

Zach is more new school, gifted athlete, with insane offensive gift that lacks the same “feel” for the game on both sides.... that said, his growth as a player the past couple seasons are very encouraging.

For 1-2 seasons, I’d rather have Jimmy. If I’m going 5+ seasons, Zach is the guy that looks like he’ll remain at a high level for longer.

[Michael Jackson]

You can make the argument he is already better then Butler.

What is that argument exactly? He is a better natural scorer but I need more than that to displace him being better than Butler. Zach this year at his best still doesn’t get to the finals with that Heat team.

Based on what exactly?

Based on a zach led team didn’t even get to the bubble. The comparison is about as fair as can be, Miami is a better team no doubt, but just making the bubble is a fair enough comparison to making the finals considering each teams talent level.

[2018C3]

Butler is far better, and the more established player.

Whats kind of cool, is they both broke out and become more valuable at the age of 25. Zach is by far more offensively gifted. Its easy to forget how young he still is. He still has room to grow, and as fans all we can do is hope for the best.

What made Jimmy more valuable then his stats, is he was a solid two way player.

This year so far. Zack is putting up better offensive stats than both Jimmy or Rose ever did. He is something you could start to build around.

Know-one here with a strait face can say we have put Zach in the best position to succeed. If we built a team around him it could be a fun ride.

Even if he is not enough, if the team becomes successful. You could then start to attract additional talent.

I think he is the teams best shot at becoming a contender going forward in the next 5 years.

One year ago, I did not feel the same way.

[CobyWhite0]

It's blatantly obvious that Zach is having the better year this season.

Of course, it might be different if Jimmy could stay healthy instead of guaranteeing his team he's going to miss 15-20 games a year, but of course he's already missed 13 games.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lavine vs Butler... I’d take Lavine if I needed a scorer the first 3ish quarters...

Beyond that?... I’d take Butler if I need someone to defend a top wing or hit shots in the clutch.

Both players are gifted, but both are so different. Butler has that old school, dog in him, type game. His will to succeed and drive to be the best he can is obvious given what he’s become as a player.

Zach is more new school, gifted athlete, with insane offensive gift that lacks the same “feel” for the game on both sides.... that said, his growth as a player the past couple seasons are very encouraging.

For 1-2 seasons, I’d rather have Jimmy. If I’m going 5+ seasons, Zach is the guy that looks like he’ll remain at a high level for longer.

Zach will be a star quality player for next 7+years(health willing) and we need to put a real team around him. He probably won’t even enter his prime until the 2022-23 season. What he is doing right now with basically no help is honestly amazing. I honestly could not care less about Jimmy Butler. He is ancient history.

We have made this season about evaluation and that’s fine. Next season needs to be about winning. No entitlement minutes for young players that aren’t ready (I don’t care if we luck into a top 3 pick) and no leaving glaring weaknesses like starting PG and size in the frontcourt completely unaddressed.

[WindyCityBorn]

It's blatantly obvious that Zach is having the better year this season.

Of course, it might be different if Jimmy could stay healthy instead of guaranteeing his team he's going to miss 15-20 games a year, but of course he's already missed 13 games.

Zach’s talent is really in a different plane compared to Butler. His mind is just now starting to realize how to utilize it. He is basically unstoppable now and still has lots of room to refine his game(most notably turnovers and drawing fouls).Not sure if he is just a really late bloomer or the coaching held him back. He could end up on being being considered one of most gifted scorers of all-time.

[DroseReturnChi]

I said before Lavine has superstar hardware. His god given athleticism could easily eclipse MJ if he really wanted to.
But despite these gifts, he sill has ways to go to surpass Butler and this tells me his development has stagnated given that Butler's physicals are trash and has a broken jumper cant even attempt 3s with opponents daring him to shoot.
If he really wants to ignore playing defense and going to the line, he should just launch 20 3s a game and make 8 of them. That alone is a top 10 player.

Only if Lavine had some leftover Jimmy's braincells he could easily win multiple rings and mvps bc in theory he has no weakness. Would offer 4 yr max to washed Jimmy so he can brainwash Lavine 24 hrs a day living together from sleep to eat. Who knew a 28yr old veteran Lavine is still learning like in kindergarten he needs to be spoonfed? I dont know what garpax did to them but yikes most of these under 25 kids have trouble learning compared to other teams. Why cant they just win mvp like rose?

[WindyCityBorn]

I said before Lavine has superstar hardware. His god given athleticism could easily eclipse MJ if he really wanted to.
But despite these gifts, he sill has ways to go to surpass Butler and this tells me his development has stagnated given that Butler's physicals are trash and has a broken jumper cant even attempt 3s with opponents daring him to shoot.
If he really wants to ignore playing defense and going to the line, he should just launch 20 3s a game and make 8 of them. That alone is a top 10 player.

Only if Lavine had some leftover Jimmy's braincells he could easily win multiple rings and mvps bc in theory he has no weakness. Would easily offer 4 yr max to Jimmy so he can brainwash Lavine 24 hrs a day to reborn him into a proper player playing the right way. Who knew a 28yr old veteran Lavine is still learning like in kindergarten he needs to be spoonfed?

I would definitely say his development has not stagnated. He is significantly better this season in most areas compared to previous seasons. We just need to get some help around so he need to score 35 for us to have a chance. We absolutely cannot go into next season with Coby white as our starting PG and wss Ed to seriously upgraded our frontcourt. I have reconsidered on Lauri. I don’t think we can let him walk or trade him for scraps and not have another high volume high efficiency scorer to replace him. I think he and Zach like playing together and they have good chemistry in few games Lauri has played so far.

[detlef_schrempf]

I said before Lavine has superstar hardware. His god given athleticism could easily eclipse MJ if he really wanted to.
But despite these gifts, he sill has ways to go to surpass Butler and this tells me his development has stagnated given that Butler's physicals are trash and has a broken jumper cant even attempt 3s with opponents daring him to shoot.
If he really wants to ignore playing defense and going to the line, he should just launch 20 3s a game and make 8 of them. That alone is a top 10 player.

Only if Lavine had some leftover Jimmy's braincells he could easily win multiple rings and mvps bc in theory he has no weakness. Would offer 4 yr max to washed Jimmy so he can brainwash Lavine 24 hrs a day living together from sleep to eat. Who knew a 28yr old veteran Lavine is still learning like in kindergarten he needs to be spoonfed? I dont know what garpax did to them but yikes most of these under 25 kids have trouble learning compared to other teams. Why cant they just win mvp like rose?

Zach is 25....and don’t talk about brain cells.

[gardenofsound]

What is that argument exactly? He is a better natural scorer but I need more than that to displace him being better than Butler. Zach this year at his best still doesn’t get to the finals with that Heat team.

Based on what exactly?

Based on a zach led team didn’t even get to the bubble. The comparison is about as fair as can be, Miami is a better team no doubt, but just making the bubble is a fair enough comparison to making the finals considering each teams talent level.

I disagree entirely. Injuries and coaching had a LOT to do with it, and I think you're heavily downplaying those variables.

Erik Spoelstra >>>> Jim Boylen (like, oh my lord, it's not even close... and this year seems to be proof thereof!). Sato and Young were clearly misused last year.

Then consider that Otto Porter only player 14 games last year, Markkanen regressed (and missed close to 25% of games), and WCJ missed a third of the season, it almost seems unfair to compare them to their Heat counterparts. But it would be pretty easy to argue that Bam was a better player than anyone the Bulls could put on the court even if they were healthy, and Herro/Robinson/Dragic were all better and more reliable than their Bulls counterparts.

Am I saying that Zach would have taken the Heat to the Finals last year? No, I'm not. But I am saying that your reasoning is flawed.

Luke Kornet, Shaq Harrison, and Chandler Hutchison all started several games. Kris Dunn was also a starter for half the season.

I don't think Jimmy Butler could have taken this team into the bubble considering Butler took a significantly better veteran 2017 team to a .500 record. Can you imagine the clubhouse turmoil if it were Butler instead of LaVine dealing with Boylen last year?

[kodo]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

[Michael Jackson]

Based on what exactly?

Based on a zach led team didn’t even get to the bubble. The comparison is about as fair as can be, Miami is a better team no doubt, but just making the bubble is a fair enough comparison to making the finals considering each teams talent level.

I disagree entirely. Injuries and coaching had a LOT to do with it, and I think you're heavily downplaying those variables.

Erik Spoelstra >>>> Jim Boylen (like, oh my lord, it's not even close... and this year seems to be proof thereof!). Sato and Young were clearly misused last year.

Then consider that Otto Porter only player 14 games last year, Markkanen regressed (and missed close to 25% of games), and WCJ missed a third of the season, it almost seems unfair to compare them to their Heat counterparts. But it would be pretty easy to argue that Bam was a better player than anyone the Bulls could put on the court even if they were healthy, and Herro/Robinson/Dragic were all better and more reliable than their Bulls counterparts.

Am I saying that Zach would have taken the Heat to the Finals last year? No, I'm not. But I am saying that your reasoning is flawed.

Luke Kornet, Shaq Harrison, and Chandler Hutchison all started several games. Kris Dunn was also a starter for half the season.

I don't think Jimmy Butler could have taken this team into the bubble considering Butler took a significantly better veteran 2017 team to a .500 record. Can you imagine the clubhouse turmoil if it were Butler instead of LaVine dealing with Boylen last year?

Not arguing that Boylen was the worst coach ever and that it was a tough road. This isn’t saying that Zach could end up a better player than Jimmy. If I am starting a franchise today I take Zach based on age and ceiling. If I am going for a win now situation though I take Jimmy. The argument is that Zach is better than Jimmy and currently he is not imho. A lot of unprovable hypotheticals we can argue. Facts on Jimmy is he lead the Bulls to the playoffs, then Minny, was the best player in the playoffs for the sixers and lead the heat to the finals when no one expected that. The last example is likely a good bit of “bubble magic” but still it’s quite a feat. Zach has not done anything in his career to this point to make me believe that he is better. It’s not just skills and etc... Jimmy can will wins, I mean that actually is his skill, he isn’t really elite in anything else. I actually do think Jimmy could have gotten the Bulls to the bubble though, he got through a dysfunctional coach to get in the playoffs here so he has a track record of a comp. I also do think, Zach AHS way more skill than Butler, a gear work ethic and constantly improves, I can say if he continues down this path at similar ages he will have been better than Jimmy at that age (30 year old Zach vs 30 year old Jimmy). I wasn’t up in arms when we traded Butler either, I thought it was an ok move. That being said I didn’t know he would be this good, I thought he had peaked already. I just assumed he was a primadonna which he is, but not really a winner. In retrospect, the smart move would have been to change coaches and stuck with Jimmy and try to get another guy. No one knew that though, every destination literally let him go because no one believes in Butler mostly because his best skill in an intangible.

[Jcool0]

Read on Twitter

[TheSuzerain]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

We would be better with Butler. He's still a better offensive player than Lavine.

We have plenty of C&S shooters ready to be unlocked by a proficient playmaker.

[gobullschi]

This is a good watch to get some insight on how LaVine views the Bulls organization. He’s clearly much happier with Billy Donovan and had some really nice things to say about Coby White & Patrick Williams.

Bulls better hope Seattle doesn’t get an NBA team though

Watch on YouTube

[HomoSapien]

Read on Twitter

Alright, which one of you ladies did this? Coldfish, was this you?

[coldfish]

Read on Twitter

Alright, which one of you ladies did this? Coldfish, was this you?

I was just trying to ask him how he reads pick and roll and he is like "Dude, why are you following me?" "This is creepy" "I'm going to call the cops." "Where are your pants?"

Sheesh. People are so sensitive.

[cool007]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

+1. Very well explained and I 2nd to that.

To all the people giving Butler way more credit than he deserves, you don't have to look further than just look his last year with the Bulls.

Butler was playing with Rondo and D-Wade and bunch of vets and young players, yet we had the same freaking exact record as we have currently after 34 games (16-18). Now tell me, how is Butler better than lavine? Butler fits in very nicely with how Heat is built so he is going to look good. Give Lavine that kind of shooters next to him and a DPOY material in Bam Adebayo and see how he would look.

I think we are really really underrating Lavine here and Bulls and other fans in general. What Lavine is doing this year is historically great season but not having good teammates hurts his image.

[WindyCityBorn]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

We would be better with Butler. He's still a better offensive player than Lavine.

We have plenty of C&S shooters ready to be unlocked by a proficient playmaker.

No he is not is not a better offensive player than LaVine. Not even close.

[TheSuzerain]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

We would be better with Butler. He's still a better offensive player than Lavine.

We have plenty of C&S shooters ready to be unlocked by a proficient playmaker.

No he is not is not a better offensive player than LaVine. Not even close.

He is better. Playmaking is the most valuable offensive tool in a star player, and Butler is fantastic at that.