NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[Openheimer]

Harden the triple double machine. 29 points 13 assists 10 boards on 10-15 shooting 3 steals and the Nets have won 10 of their last 11 games

[eyeatoma]

Your MVP, Joel Embiid, just destroyed who the media is saying is the DPOY. MVP baby!

[SeniorWalker]

Can we all admit that MVP and "Player of the Year" are two different ideas?

Right now its apparent to me that Jokic is Player of the year. As in, the actual best player in the league during the regular season, at least offensively. (Edit: player of the year takes into account Reg season and playoffs, but right now Jokic would be the guy).

However, Joel Embiid has a better MVP case than he does, even if marginally, by the typical standards of the award. We can complain about those standards all day but if we're trying to decide who will actually win based on how the votes are usually distributed, we can't just quote off our spreadsheets and pick the guy based on our favorite stats. Its a combo of several different factors and its always been this way. Always.

And thats with all due respect to Jokic, the guy is outstanding and I actually need to start watching more nuggets games, he's a pleasure to watch. (Harden honorable mention)

He's just not going to get it with a 7th or 8th seed if his rivals lock up a top seed, its not gonna happen. And no one can claim he was robbed. There's a lot of ball left to be played. If he can lead the nuggets to a higher seed, then he will become the favorite.

[bebopdeluxe]

I feel it won't be long until it's impossible for anyone to catch Embiid or Jokic, then it all comes down to musing over the team records.

Currently right now it's Jokic, but even as stan I do think it's been wavering back and forward between the 2.

That is some amazing rhetorical gymnastics there, bro.

You start by saying that it will likely come down to “musing over team records”...and then you say they guy playing for a team that, if the season eneded right now, has to play a PLAY IN GAME just to be in the big-boy playoffs is ahead of the guy whose team enters the All-Star break as the 1 seed in their conference?

Umm...could you explain your reasoning again? Thanks.

[Jurassic_Park]

Curious what everyone thinks about Harden's chances at MVP? What does he need to do to win it? Best record in the east? Best record in east by at least 3-4 games? I was part of the camp that thought he had no shot, but he keeps crushing it, kd is out, and bkn keeps winning.

If Bkn ends up with the 2nd best record in the nba (after only Utah), would Harden win the award?

[The_Hater]

Curious what everyone thinks about Harden's chances at MVP? What does he need to do to win it? Best record in the east? Best record in east by at least 3-4 games? I was part of the camp that thought he had no shot, but he keeps crushing it, kd is out, and bkn keeps winning.

If Bkn ends up with the 2nd best record in the nba (after only Utah), would Harden win the award?

Harden has virtually zero chance at winning MVP imo. Not because he isn’t an amazing player having another great season, but because of the way the season started in Houston. The narrative has already taken him out of the running.

[DCasey91]

As it stands it’s Jokic or Embiid. By some margin too, after that it’s a raffle from 3-7.

The Harden disrespect is getting out of hand lol he’s cutting through the East and the West.

In theory if the Nets get the top seed by some margin (2-3 games) at the end which looks realistic and with the downright fact that Durant/Irving has missed chunks of games.

How can you not place Harden at top 3 minimum, in fact outside of his reputation he should arguably be the favourite.
76ers team isn’t better then the Nets outside of Embiid/Harden, Jokic records is poor. Lebron has AD etc etc etc.

A man one band is cutting through the East on medium dif, he’s carried a lot harder in the West.
Anyone arguing against Harden on what he’s done is just bias against him it’s unfortunate for him because it probably has cost him an MVP before not including this year. (I had Harden firmly in front of Giannis that year he put up 36. His MVP year arguably wasn’t his best lol).

[RRFB]

I feel it won't be long until it's impossible for anyone to catch Embiid or Jokic, then it all comes down to musing over the team records.

Currently right now it's Jokic, but even as stan I do think it's been wavering back and forward between the 2.

That is some amazing rhetorical gymnastics there, bro.

You start by saying that it will likely come down to “musing over team records”...and then you say they guy playing for a team that, if the season eneded right now, has to play a PLAY IN GAME just to be in the big-boy playoffs is ahead of the guy whose team enters the All-Star break as the 1 seed in their conference?

Umm...could you explain your reasoning again? Thanks.

It’s really not that complicated.

For all the talk about Denver’s record, Philly is actually only 3.5 games better (and only 3 up in the loss column). Jokic plays in a more difficult conference and has less help. Embiid has also played in 20% fewer games.

I don’t have a problem with anyone arguing for Embiid to win it, he’s been great, but to act like it isn’t close is silly.

[HartfordWhalers]

I feel it won't be long until it's impossible for anyone to catch Embiid or Jokic, then it all comes down to musing over the team records.

Currently right now it's Jokic, but even as stan I do think it's been wavering back and forward between the 2.

That is some amazing rhetorical gymnastics there, bro.

You start by saying that it will likely come down to “musing over team records”...and then you say they guy playing for a team that, if the season eneded right now, has to play a PLAY IN GAME just to be in the big-boy playoffs is ahead of the guy whose team enters the All-Star break as the 1 seed in their conference?

Umm...could you explain your reasoning again? Thanks.

It’s really not that complicated.

For all the talk about Denver’s record, Philly is actually only 3.5 games better (and only 3 up in the loss column). Jokic plays in a more difficult conference and has less help. Embiid has also played in 20% fewer games.

I don’t have a problem with anyone arguing for Embiid to win it, he’s been great, but to act like it isn’t close is silly.

FYI, from a different thread:

On off ratings:
Sixers with Embiid: 117.6 106.5 11.1
Sixers without: 102.5 108.8 -6.3
17.4 net rating gap. For a team currently in 1st in East.

Denver with Jokic: 120.4 111.6 8.8
Denver without Jokic: 102.0 104.7 -2.8
11.6 net rating gap. For a team with a much worse record.

{Usual disclaimer about noise, sample size etc}.

Embiid Sixers being considerably better than the Jokic Nuggets; and Sixers without Embiid being considerably worse than the Nuggets without Jokic makes the case that Embiid has a bigger impact.

[bearadonisdna]

harden aint getting mvp, he aint even best player on his team. jokic is the great white hope.
zero shot as well until the seeding reflects it.

[bebopdeluxe]

That is some amazing rhetorical gymnastics there, bro.

You start by saying that it will likely come down to “musing over team records”...and then you say they guy playing for a team that, if the season eneded right now, has to play a PLAY IN GAME just to be in the big-boy playoffs is ahead of the guy whose team enters the All-Star break as the 1 seed in their conference?

Umm...could you explain your reasoning again? Thanks.

It’s really not that complicated.

For all the talk about Denver’s record, Philly is actually only 3.5 games better (and only 3 up in the loss column). Jokic plays in a more difficult conference and has less help. Embiid has also played in 20% fewer games.

I don’t have a problem with anyone arguing for Embiid to win it, he’s been great, but to act like it isn’t close is silly.

FYI, from a different thread:

On off ratings:
Sixers with Embiid: 117.6 106.5 11.1
Sixers without: 102.5 108.8 -6.3
17.4 net rating gap. For a team currently in 1st in East.

Denver with Jokic: 120.4 111.6 8.8
Denver without Jokic: 102.0 104.7 -2.8
11.6 net rating gap. For a team with a much worse record.

{Usual disclaimer about noise, sample size etc}.

Embiid Sixers being considerably better than the Jokic Nuggets; and Sixers without Embiid being considerably worse than the Nuggets without Jokic makes the case that Embiid has a bigger impact.

That is really it in a nutshell. It is Most VALUABLE Player - not Most AMAZING OFFENSIVE STATISTICS Player.

[bearadonisdna]

are the jokic apologist gonna try to tie his case to westbrooks mvp season as a lower seed?

westbrook put up an all time most valuable statline. A 31 point triple double.
trying to piggy back this narrative is sad.

[Sgt Major]

Westbrook was hunting triple doubles, Jokic has multiple games where he only needed one more assist or rebound to get it and he didn't care.

Comparing those two really shows that those who are doing it have no clue about Jokic's game.

[bearadonisdna]

Westbrook was hunting triple doubles, Jokic has multiple games where he only needed one more assist or rebound to get it and he didn't care.

Comparing those two really shows that those who are doing it have no clue about Jokic's game.

the comparison is for fan narrative not my analysis of his game.
if you are not citing westbrook then there is zero basis for including him into the convo.
a 7th seed team , a team 1.5 gms out of the top 8 altogether is not an mvp candidate.

[RB34]

harden aint getting mvp, he aint even best player on his team. jokic is the great white hope.
zero shot as well until the seeding reflects it.

What does great white hope mean?

[Castle Black]

Y’all better start giving Harden some credit. He’s playing at an MVP level right now and putting up ridiculous numbers. Basically a walking triple-double at this point and he’s won 10 of his last 11 games, including against some of the best teams in the league.

[GSP]

Westbrook was hunting triple doubles, Jokic has multiple games where he only needed one more assist or rebound to get it and he didn't care.

Comparing those two really shows that those who are doing it have no clue about Jokic's game.

the comparison is for fan narrative not my analysis of his game.
if you are not citing westbrook then there is zero basis for including him into the convo.
a 7th seed team , a team 1.5 gms out of the top 8 altogether is not an mvp candidate.

Denver is also .5 behind the 5 seed and might tie it tomorrow

Denver is in a far tougher conference than Philly as well which should be factored in when discussing seedings against Mvp candidates from the East if voters are smart enough to consider it

[antonac]

I feel it won't be long until it's impossible for anyone to catch Embiid or Jokic, then it all comes down to musing over the team records.

Currently right now it's Jokic, but even as stan I do think it's been wavering back and forward between the 2.

That is some amazing rhetorical gymnastics there, bro.

You start by saying that it will likely come down to “musing over team records”...and then you say they guy playing for a team that, if the season eneded right now, has to play a PLAY IN GAME just to be in the big-boy playoffs is ahead of the guy whose team enters the All-Star break as the 1 seed in their conference?

Umm...could you explain your reasoning again? Thanks.

Jokic is better than Embiid and his team record is not significantly inferior to Emiid's for that to change. Per advanced stats Jokic is having the best season in NBA history, Embiid, who also misses enough games for it to be a factor in the MVP race, is not playing well enough that winning 4 extra games turns that on it's head.

I think also we have an interesting run where Philly are playing a bunch of top seeds and Denver barely have to play any over .500 teams, so it will be interesting to see where the standings are after that, especially as Denver are pretty much on pace with philly now.

btw the way, has Embiid picked the mic up yet? I remember you seemed to be suggesting he was dropping it a lot the brief period of 2-3 days where he overtook Jokic in the PER standard.

[BelgradeNugget]

I think Jokic, Embiid and Harden are playing great and each one of them has a case for MVP. I will point out cases against each one of them:

1. Jokic not enough wins - his team is 7th in the west
2. Embiid missing games - he played in 83% of his team's games, which is on the path of playing 68 games in 82 season which is not enough
3. Harden missing games - he played in 31 games it is not enough

So when we take all this into consideration the real MVP is:

LeBron James because he is...36 years old...plays for the Lakers...he was robbed of some awards in past years...media loves him...Silver loves him...he is 36 years old...case closed

[Johnny Firpo]

The Sixers has three losses less than the Nuggets. It was almost two after last night, and the Nuggets has a better net rating, while playing in a much stronger conference. I mean, does seeding really mean that much when the two teams are close in their record, and the other is playing in a much better conference?