Gobert has to be the most overrated perennial DPOY contender in recent history

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't want to invoke the "c word" on here, but if your only way of analyzing defense is matchups/man to man/on-ball... you're a casual. (i'm sorry lord they made me say it, I promise I won't do it again.).

Gobert was never special because of his man-to-man defense. The guy came into the league at 230lbs, he was never built to bang. Gobert is special because he's got ridiculously long arms, has great anticipation, and is graceful in his rotations. Gobert's job is to protect the paint and make life hard for the entire other team, not just one guy. 1 on 1 post defense... isn't a special skill. Andrea Bargnani was a pretty sick 1 on 1 post defender... and he's one of the worst defensive 5s we've ever seen play 30mpg.

Ben Wallace was my favorite player in the early 2000s, and while he was a really good one-on-one defender, that's not why he was winning DPOY. He won DPOY because of his "no-fly zone"; he made it really hard to get easy shots in the paint. Wallace wasn't matchup-proof either. Just like Rudy is skinny, Ben was short. He'd rough up KG and Duncan, but sometimes they'd just turn and shoot. Rudy can still bother Jokic/Embiid with that length, but they're going to try to body him every chance they get.

Believe it or not, DPOY is not an award for: "how well you matchup with the best players at your position". It's about overall defensive impact. Rudy Gobert is a defensive monster. Utah is a top 3 defense this year, despite having a more offensive slanted roster.

I've certainly noticed among the years on this board when people point out a bad defender someone will say "his post defense is pretty good though!".

Shows you the value of post defense.

[dhsilv2]

Gobert is definitely a one-dimensional defender when compared to Ben Simmons.
If the powerful interior player has no problem scoring on Gobert, then what does Gobert do? He's lost.....because he can't defend a guard or small forward....
Ben Simmons whereas can contain or stop multiple positions.

Gobert reduced the points the other team scores at a rate higher than Simmons. That's the goal...not to shut your man down.

[dhsilv2]

Gobert is awesome. He's just more of a team defender than a 1-on-1 guy. It's why I want to see Simmons win DPOY though. He can't protect the rim, but his versatility is unparalleled. Even he gets cooked by smaller guards 1-on-1 from time to time though.

So you want a worse defender to get DPOY because you enjoy man to man defense more?

[NADALalot]

how many great offensive centers are there in the NBA, two?).

Rudy Gobert is a hindrance to everyone on the court, defense is not man to man.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense. And I didn't say centers, I said "the powerful interior player", Zion for example. There are no shortage of high-scoring PFs and Cs. Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, Zion, Vucevic, Randle, Sabonis, Harris, Siakam, Adebayo, Collins all average 18+ppg and can go for 25+ at any given time.....So imagine if Gobert had to guard one of those guys in a 7-game series....

[HeartBreakKid]

how many great offensive centers are there in the NBA, two?).

Rudy Gobert is a hindrance to everyone on the court, defense is not man to man.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense. And I didn't say centers, I said "the powerful interior player", Zion for example. There are no shortage of high-scoring PFs and Cs.

Rudy Gobert can pretty obviously guard his own man. Just because a volume scorer goes off on him doesn't mean that he is some guy who cannot guard bigs. Every defender in NBA history has gone against opponents who had huge scoring nights.


You're pretty far off if you think that if Rudy Gobert is struggling against his man that he is totally useless. Shaq dropped buckets on Olajuwon and Olajuwon is a pretty good defender last I checked.



There are certainly a shortage of high scoring Cs. When was the last time a team had good offense from a volume scoring center? Before Jokic you'd have to go back like ten years to find one.

Power Forwards wouldn't over power Rudy Gobert consistently and would be bothered by his length.

[Pharmcat]

Rudy is a role player, doesn’t move the needle. Not really worth more than the mle. The eye test clearly shows how he gets exposed against skilled big men, no matter what the analytics on some excel spreadsheet show

[FinnTheHuman]

Rudy is a role player, doesn’t move the needle. Not really worth more than the mle. The eye test clearly shows how he gets exposed against skilled big men, no matter what the analytics on some excel spreadsheet show

Spoiler:

[Muha_i_samolet]

Kg is considered a historically elite defender, yet in the 00's guys like Zach Randolph and Pau used to drop plenty on him.

[SnoopDub]

Is that you Shaq?

[dhsilv2]

how many great offensive centers are there in the NBA, two?).

Rudy Gobert is a hindrance to everyone on the court, defense is not man to man.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense.

This is where you're wrong. if you can't play team defense, you're a liability. Guarding your man is far less important. The biggest question is if you can effectively run the defensive scheme that your coach has you running.

[dhsilv2]

Rudy is a role player, doesn’t move the needle. Not really worth more than the mle. The eye test clearly shows how he gets exposed against skilled big men, no matter what the analytics on some excel spreadsheet show

Ken M's little brother strikes again!

[NADALalot]

how many great offensive centers are there in the NBA, two?).

Rudy Gobert is a hindrance to everyone on the court, defense is not man to man.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense.

This is where you're wrong. if you can't play team defense, you're a liability. Guarding your man is far less important. The biggest question is if you can effectively run the defensive scheme that your coach has you running.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense.
If you can't even play team defense, you are a potential liability, no matter what achieve in man-on-man defense.
And if I was in the playoffs, I would be very worried if my best defender was being abused for 7 games by his own man.

[dhsilv2]

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense.

This is where you're wrong. if you can't play team defense, you're a liability. Guarding your man is far less important. The biggest question is if you can effectively run the defensive scheme that your coach has you running.

If you can't even guard your own man, you are a potential liability, no matter what you achieve in team defense.
If you can't even play team defense, you are a potential liability, no matter what achieve in man-on-man defense.
And if I was in the playoffs, I would be very worried if my best defender was being abused for 7 games by his own man.

Then you'd be a horrible coach. Team defense is what moves the needle. Unless you think Gobert is at the level where someone is just taking wide open dunks,which isn't the case then this is just not how the game is played. If you guard any elite scorer man to man, they'll light up any defender in the history of the game over 7 games.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Jazz DRTG since Gobert became their starter (don't forget Utah plays in the WC where most of the elite offenses reside):

2016: 7th (Gobert 23yo, missed 21 games)
2017: 3rd
2018: 2nd
2019: 2nd
2020: 13th
2021: 3rd

2020 is the outlier as Utah was straight basura defensively outside of Gobert, they didn't even have a backup center ffs (108.3 DRTG Gobert on, 114.6 DRTG Gobert off). There were also some internal team issues last season with Gobert reportedly checking out mentally due to frustration with his offensive role. Then the whole coronavirus thing. But they've moved passed that and Gobert's Jazz are back to being a top 3 defensive team

So if you concede 2020 was an outlier, then a prime Gobert essentially guarantees you a floor of top 5 defense (more likely top 3). I'd say that makes him a pretty elite defensive anchor

[eyeatoma]

Rudy is a role player, doesn’t move the needle. Not really worth more than the mle. The eye test clearly shows how he gets exposed against skilled big men, no matter what the analytics on some excel spreadsheet show

Spoiler:

So this is the level of intelligent discussion that I was preventing? Bro memes with dogs? Go home millennial.

[Yuri Vaultin]

I feel like I'm going to have to explain basketball to many of you like Candace Parker did Shaq.

Gobert is an elite defender. Period. This type of hot take thread after one game is sadly expected at this point, but misses the point like all others.

[NO-KG-AI]

Imagine people pretending Duncan wasn't that great because Amare Stoudemire went for 37 ppg on 55% shooting against him, or because Dirk had some huge series against him.

The DPOY that was actually overrated was Dwight. His narrative of "well, just look at the guys on the team, they can't be that good" even though the fall off wasn't nearly as dramatic as people claimed that it would or should be whenever he was out of the game.

[FinnTheHuman]

Rudy is a role player, doesn’t move the needle. Not really worth more than the mle. The eye test clearly shows how he gets exposed against skilled big men, no matter what the analytics on some excel spreadsheet show

Spoiler:

So this is the level of intelligent discussion that I was preventing? Bro memes with dogs? Go home millennial.

Yeah, you can’t have an intelligent discussion with flat earthers, anti vax ppl, guys who deny the significance of statistical analysis in 2021, so you gotta ridicule them

[Yuri Vaultin]

Jazz DRTG since Gobert became their starter (don't forget Utah plays in the WC where most of the elite offenses reside):

2016: 7th
2017: 3rd
2018: 2nd
2019: 2nd
2020: 13th
2021: 3rd

2020 is the outlier as Utah was straight basura defensively outside of Gobert, they didn't even have a backup center ffs (108.3 DRTG Gobert on, 114.6 DRTG Gobert off). There were also some internal team issues last season with Gobert reportedly checking out mentally due to frustration with his offensive role. Then the whole coronavirus thing. But they've moved passed that and Gobert's Jazz are back to being a top 3 defensive team

So if you concede 2020 was an outlier, then Gobert essentially guarantees you a floor of top 10 defense (more likely top 3). I'd say that makes him a pretty elite defensive anchor

pfft...

you and your "numbers". Don't you know advanced metrics have no place here? Little Johnny just saw Embiid go off, so ergo Gobert SUCKS. Eyes don't lie!

[goober]

I love how the “eye test” is used against Gobert yet almost every game I see players flat out avoiding the paint because Rudy is there.