Gobert has to be the most overrated perennial DPOY contender in recent history

[BudTugly]

This is like watching a flat earther event getting hit by an asteroid

[brutalitops]

Gobert is definitely a one-dimensional defender when compared to Ben Simmons.
If the powerful interior player has no problem scoring on Gobert, then what does Gobert do? He's lost.....because he can't defend a guard or small forward....
Ben Simmons whereas can contain or stop multiple positions.

Oooh a hot-take on a players ability from yesteryear! By Golly I think the Kahwi Trade to Toronto might actually finally win them the chip! but watch out if GSW get Healthy!

[Baski]

Gobert is awesome. He's just more of a team defender than a 1-on-1 guy. It's why I want to see Simmons win DPOY though. He can't protect the rim, but his versatility is unparalleled. Even he gets cooked by smaller guards 1-on-1 from time to time though.

So you want a worse defender to get DPOY because you enjoy man to man defense more?

No I want a versatile defender to win DPOY because I think Simmons defense is effective against a far larger number of opposing players in the NBA. I think that means something. Adaptability matters. The options it gives the team with that player are endless. When Rudy was getting destroyed by Embiid last night, what other options did the Jazz have? You literally can't move him onto anyone else.

You mean move the team's best defender off of Embiid and have a shorter, worse defender somehow lock up Embiid where Gobert couldn't? Like who?
Which team would that be a good idea for; To move their best defender away from the opponent's star because they're getting torched? When Kyrie was torching Klay in the finals were they supposed to move him elsewhere?
And replace him with who? Curry? Or when Shaq was destroying Mutombo the 76ers should've switched him onto someone else?

Being torched by a superstar doesn't mean all the great defense you've played in other games didn't happen.

[Optms]

He needs to work on his offensive skills to at least bother a bit ultra talented offensive center , all he can do is to dunk assisted ball.

Creating your own offense =/= elite offensive player

Just because Rudy cannot create his own offense does not mean he isn’t an elite offensive player. How many times do we have to repeat this!!!!!!!!!!

I guess it depends on what someone considers "elite" since its a very subjective term. It wouldn't be hard for someone today to argue that a standstill 3 point shooter with 40% + efficiency on great volume to be elite offensively.

For me though, you need a combo of several key offensive checkpoints to meet that threshold:

- Vision
- Shooting
- Inside finishing
- High volume of production in several key offensive stats

I'm not going to hold Gobert's inability hit a 3 or court vision against him here but his lack of ability to create his own offense is a huge contradiction to an actual elite offensive player for me. Creating your own shot has to literately be one of the first checkpoints in being elite offensively. If a player cannot create when the offense breaks down, they are not an ideal offensive option, much less an elite one.

[USWAY]

So you want a worse defender to get DPOY because you enjoy man to man defense more?

No I want a versatile defender to win DPOY because I think Simmons defense is effective against a far larger number of opposing players in the NBA. I think that means something. Adaptability matters. The options it gives the team with that player are endless. When Rudy was getting destroyed by Embiid last night, what other options did the Jazz have? You literally can't move him onto anyone else.

You mean move the team's best defender off of Embiid and have a shorter, worse defender somehow lock up Embiid where Gobert couldn't? Like who?
Which team would that be a good idea for; To move their best defender away from the opponent's star because they're getting torched? When Kyrie was torching Klay in the finals were they supposed to move him elsewhere?
And replace him with who? Curry? Or when Shaq was destroying Mutombo the 76ers should've switched him onto someone else?

Being torched by a superstar doesn't mean all the great defense you've played in other games didn't happen.

You mistake me for someone who hasn't already said in this thread that Rudy is one of the best defenders in recent memory. His value as an anchor and rim protector is noted and each DPOY he's won is deserved. We're talking about the two best defensive players in the NBA so in reality we're splitting hairs.

You don't switch him to anyone else, but in those situations he loses a lot of his value and the Jazz' team defense structure completely falls apart. If Rudy can't anchor and defend the paint against the best centers, then is he just taking advantage of a league that lacked strong offensive bigs for a while? Is the Jazz' "team defense" structure that just funnels players to him at the rim (where he's obviously elite) really what makes is defensive metrics so other worldly?

Meanwhile, Ben Simmons has taken his defensive game to another level this year. He can legitimately guard 1-5 effectively. Night after night, this dude is taking on the best offensive assignment from perimeter players of all shapes and sizes. I've seen him hold Lillard to 6-21, shut down Doncic, then hold Mitchell to 33on 34 shots the other night; all within the last month. The dudes he's taking on are the most important offensive hubs for their respective teams and he's shutting them down. I just think that matters.

[USWAY]

So you want a worse defender to get DPOY because you enjoy man to man defense more?

No I want a versatile defender to win DPOY because I think Simmons defense is effective against a far larger number of opposing players in the NBA. I think that means something. Adaptability matters. The options it gives the team with that player are endless. When Rudy was getting destroyed by Embiid last night, what other options did the Jazz have? You literally can't move him onto anyone else.

You certainly can move Rudy to someone else, and if Simmons was the anchor for the Jazz what would change? Embiid would destroy Simmons even worse.

Yeah Simmons definitely is not a anchor/rim protector, I agree. But expected because he's a perimeter/1-on-1/passing lane disruptor type-defender. I'm watching Simmons take out the best perimeter scorers in the league night after night, so I'll give him a pass for not being able to defend elite centers in the post 1-on-1 or protect the rim.

I've actually seen him play some strong D against some non Jokic type centers in the post though.

[Arteezy]

Prime Gobert was bullied by 35 old Pau Gasol at home in Eurobasket, like 40 points in a FIBA game

[USWAY]

The problem is you're not thinking about how the game is played. You don't guard a man. You guard a team. Gobert reduces the other team's scoring more consistently than simmons. Basketball isn't a series of matchups, it's two teams of 5 people competing. You want to stop a 30 point a game scorer? Well, you rarely can do that, but if you want to do it, you double team.

Also did Embiid really destroy Gobert? He averages 30 a game in 33 minutes on 64.6% TS and 3.3 assists. Embiid played 6 more minutes than his average and scored 40 vs 30 and did so on 61.1% TS with 3 assists. He picked up his volume just a bit and was less efficient than normally. That's more or less what he's been doing to the whole league. It wasn't some kinda of really special game.

By your own evaluation, wouldn't that make gobert an average defender?

If you're an average man defender and the best off ball rim protector in the game. You're 99 times out of 100 the best defender in the game.

But I didn't watch the game. Were the Jazz playing Embiid mostly straight up? If so holding a guy to below average efficiency would be incredible defense on an MVP level guy. If they were hard doubling then we'd have to judge the system and double.

I mean, if your making an argument for Rudy as the DPOY and you quote that the leading MVP candidate abused him like he does the rest of the league for 10 more points on marginally less effeciency (-3.5%), I think your going the wrong route. Your basically calling him an average Joe lol.

Read on Twitter

[Jables]

Gobert is a flawed defender, more than his own defenders will admit, but he is judged fairly compared to previous winners of the award. It's borderline insane that Tony Allen didn't win a DPOY award but that's just how the award is judged, a guy that focuses on rim protection is just way more likely to get it.

He isn't even rated that highly everyone laughed at the Jazz resigning him even though it made sense to, no one says the Jazz will win the ring because who can score on Gobert? They talk more about their offense than anything. LeBron and Durant picked both him and Mitchell last, with LeBron more or less saying he couldn't get excited about picking him. Gobert is not overrated, I hate to say it he might be underrated.

[Arteezy]

Imagine giving the supermax to a guy that literally can not be played in the playoffs.

[FlatearthZorro]

And it's purely off physicality. Seeing him get bullied by 20 year old Zion( who at his young is bullying majority of the league to be fair) then whining to the refs and media was pretty pathetic. He then follows it up by getting bullied by Embiid.

Great shotblocker/ rim protecter but he's pretty much neutralized by any skilled bruiser. He benefits playing in a very offensive friendly, small ball league where most Cs are really PFs or similar build. Couldn't imagine ever seeing the Ben's, Mutombos, Dwights, Alonzos getting pillaged like Gobert does. Sorry not sorry.

Vucevic had 34/8/4 against the Jazz, too and despite the Magic losing, Nikola dominated.

Gobert is fairly mobile for his size, can block shots and changes a lots of shots, too. He's not an overall very skilled b-ball player tho, tbh.

[dhsilv2]

By your own evaluation, wouldn't that make gobert an average defender?

If you're an average man defender and the best off ball rim protector in the game. You're 99 times out of 100 the best defender in the game.

But I didn't watch the game. Were the Jazz playing Embiid mostly straight up? If so holding a guy to below average efficiency would be incredible defense on an MVP level guy. If they were hard doubling then we'd have to judge the system and double.

I mean, if your making an argument for Rudy as the DPOY and you quote that the leading MVP candidate abused him like he does the rest of the league for 10 more points on marginally less effeciency (-3.5%), I think your going the wrong route. Your basically calling him an average Joe lol.

If your analysis for DPOY stress a single game or matchup, it likely should just be thrown out. Again, you've yet to make a case with breakdown of how the Jazz system worked as whole against the 76ers. Unless you can put enough context to place the failings on Gobert this is all just noise.

[dhsilv2]

Gobert is a flawed defender, more than his own defenders will admit, but he is judged fairly compared to previous winners of the award. It's borderline insane that Tony Allen didn't win a DPOY award but that's just how the award is judged, a guy that focuses on rim protection is just way more likely to get it.

He isn't even rated that highly everyone laughed at the Jazz resigning him even though it made sense to, no one says the Jazz will win the ring because who can score on Gobert? They talk more about their offense than anything. LeBron and Durant picked both him and Mitchell last, with LeBron more or less saying he couldn't get excited about picking him. Gobert is not overrated, I hate to say it he might be underrated.

What year did Tony Allen even play enough to justify DPOY honors?

[dhsilv2]

He needs to work on his offensive skills to at least bother a bit ultra talented offensive center , all he can do is to dunk assisted ball.

Creating your own offense =/= elite offensive player

Just because Rudy cannot create his own offense does not mean he isn’t an elite offensive player. How many times do we have to repeat this!!!!!!!!!!

I guess it depends on what someone considers "elite" since its a very subjective term. It wouldn't be hard for someone today to argue that a standstill 3 point shooter with 40% + efficiency on great volume to be elite offensively.

For me though, you need a combo of several key offensive checkpoints to meet that threshold:

- Vision
- Shooting
- Inside finishing
- High volume of production in several key offensive stats

I'm not going to hold Gobert's inability hit a 3 or court vision against him here but his lack of ability to create his own offense is a huge contradiction to an actual elite offensive player for me. Creating your own shot has to literately be one of the first checkpoints in being elite offensively. If a player cannot create when the offense breaks down, they are not an ideal offensive option, much less an elite one.

While the idea calling him Elite seems a bit crazy or at least beyond reasonably bullish. Gobert has become an incredibly smart off ball mover, has add some offensive moves, and is one of if not the best big man screener in the game.

[Danny11]

Good offense always beats good defense. If you want to "stop" a top offensive player in the league, you gotta scheme for it as a team. One man won't get it done

Simmons clamped up little Bitchell, took him 34 shots to score 33, didn’t need any scheme, or does midget chucker boy just suck?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude, chill, we don't need that kind of hate speech. Anyways, is he really a short chucker? Self-evauate please. He is 6' tall and shooting 38% from 3.

[brutalitops]

Prime Gobert was bullied by 35 old Pau Gasol at home in Eurobasket, like 40 points in a FIBA game

Gobert was in his prime at age 23? You've added nothing

[Lockdown504090]

By your own evaluation, wouldn't that make gobert an average defender?

If you're an average man defender and the best off ball rim protector in the game. You're 99 times out of 100 the best defender in the game.

But I didn't watch the game. Were the Jazz playing Embiid mostly straight up? If so holding a guy to below average efficiency would be incredible defense on an MVP level guy. If they were hard doubling then we'd have to judge the system and double.

I mean, if your making an argument for Rudy as the DPOY and you quote that the leading MVP candidate abused him like he does the rest of the league for 10 more points on marginally less effeciency (-3.5%), I think your going the wrong route. Your basically calling him an average Joe lol.

Read on Twitter

While this is all true, it doesnt take away from what he does overall in the RS. in 3/4 of the games hes not playing a top guy that doenst care about his length and he has a massive impact on those games defensively . I would rather have simmons AD bam giannis and draymond green in the playoffs on defense in the playoffs because they are more versitile and can guard with both feet above the 3 point line though. Dpoy is a RS award though, so I wouldnt call him overrated as a dpoy, hes just never going to be the best because there are guys who can do more.

This would be like saying James harden is a better scorer than mike and durant because he does a bunch of things that lend itself to RS success while having weaknesses that will prevent him from beating more well rounded and better scorers.

[cupcakesnake]

I don't want to invoke the "c word" on here, but if your only way of analyzing defense is matchups/man to man/on-ball... you're a casual. (i'm sorry lord they made me say it, I promise I won't do it again.).

Gobert was never special because of his man-to-man defense. The guy came into the league at 230lbs, he was never built to bang. Gobert is special because he's got ridiculously long arms, has great anticipation, and is graceful in his rotations. Gobert's job is to protect the paint and make life hard for the entire other team, not just one guy. 1 on 1 post defense... isn't a special skill. Andrea Bargnani was a pretty sick 1 on 1 post defender... and he's one of the worst defensive 5s we've ever seen play 30mpg.

Ben Wallace was my favorite player in the early 2000s, and while he was a really good one-on-one defender, that's not why he was winning DPOY. He won DPOY because of his "no-fly zone"; he made it really hard to get easy shots in the paint. Wallace wasn't matchup-proof either. Just like Rudy is skinny, Ben was short. He'd rough up KG and Duncan, but sometimes they'd just turn and shoot. Rudy can still bother Jokic/Embiid with that length, but they're going to try to body him every chance they get.

Believe it or not, DPOY is not an award for: "how well you matchup with the best players at your position". It's about overall defensive impact. Rudy Gobert is a defensive monster. Utah is a top 3 defense this year, despite having a more offensive slanted roster.

Damn homie just ended the thread just like that

The same posters calling out Gobert are the same guys who think Mourning, Dwight, and Ben Wallace where not great defenders because they got dunked on

I wish I could give this post a +100

I swear old man Zo got dunked on more than anyone I've ever seen. He was like some old, noble sensei, with 6 swords already sticking out of still bleeding wounds. Young Lebron could be going up for a dunk, and Zo would load up, think "we must defend the clan". There's a reason he was averaging over 2 blocks per game in only 20mpg in his late 30s. Zero fear of getting dunked on. I bet when he's watching games from home, he sees a player drive, gets off the couch, bends his knees, and his daughter has to tell him: "daddy sit down, you're blocking the tv!"

I think he was probably the least afraid of getting dunked on of any player I've ever watched. Kept this attitude playing against MJ, Pippen, Shaq, David Robinson, Vince Carter, Lebron James. What a legend.

[dhsilv2]

While this is all true, it doesnt take away from what he does overall in the RS. in 3/4 of the games hes not playing a top guy that doenst care about his length and he has a massive impact on those games defensively . I would rather have simmons AD bam giannis and draymond green in the playoffs on defense in the playoffs because they are more versitile and can guard with both feet above the 3 point line though. Dpoy is a RS award though, so I wouldnt call him overrated as a dpoy, hes just never going to be the best because there are guys who can do more.

This would be like saying James harden is a better scorer than mike and durant because he does a bunch of things that lend itself to RS success while having weaknesses that will prevent him from beating more well rounded and better scorers.

Gobert has been great in the playoffs....once his coach made adjustments to counter the rocket's schemes. The problem for the Jazz was how slow their coaching staff was to make adjustments. Great coaches can make adjustments in game. Good coaches need a game to adjust. The Jazz needed two full games before they were able to make meaningful adjustments. Defense today isn't like the 90's where good old man to man was good enough to hold down the fort. Today the teamwork on that end is critical and coaching plays a much bigger role on that side of the ball.

[Lockdown504090]

While this is all true, it doesnt take away from what he does overall in the RS. in 3/4 of the games hes not playing a top guy that doenst care about his length and he has a massive impact on those games defensively . I would rather have simmons AD bam giannis and draymond green in the playoffs on defense in the playoffs because they are more versitile and can guard with both feet above the 3 point line though. Dpoy is a RS award though, so I wouldnt call him overrated as a dpoy, hes just never going to be the best because there are guys who can do more.

This would be like saying James harden is a better scorer than mike and durant because he does a bunch of things that lend itself to RS success while having weaknesses that will prevent him from beating more well rounded and better scorers.

Gobert has been great in the playoffs....once his coach made adjustments to counter the rocket's schemes. The problem for the Jazz was how slow their coaching staff was to make adjustments. Great coaches can make adjustments in game. Good coaches need a game to adjust. The Jazz needed two full games before they were able to make meaningful adjustments. Defense today isn't like the 90's where good old man to man was good enough to hold down the fort. Today the teamwork on that end is critical and coaching plays a much bigger role on that side of the ball.

the second time he was good, yes. they also played a lot of zone, and I dont think the strategies they had to employ against them would be sucessful against other teams which is why they didnt go to a lot of those things against denver in the bubble. to your point about todays defense I agree, which is why goberts value has always been less than what it is in the playoffs. I do not think hes bad, I just dont think he is as good as the other people I mentioned, and there is a dropoff, which is a problem for someone who is also really a slight positive on offense because of the jazz's scheme which is also countered by those defenders i mentioned.

My issue with him, is that teams can run plays when rudy is on the court, switching defenses totally get teams out of their pnr sets and forces iso ball. The clippers did it to them. the heat do it, the lakers will do it at as well, and rudy cant do that back. So if he is playing traditional pnr defense and you have a star that can score against rudy, which some have shown they can( I dont think james harden is an elite finisher in the paint btw), rudy becomes something less than a dpoy.

If you have a guy like steph who can get kawhi on a switch(not saying kawhi is better than rudy) and cook him like he does everyone else, whats kawhi giving you on defense? he can still be switchable on other players, he can get in the passing lane at an all time great level, he can contest jumpers really well, and hes more mobile.

He wasnt great agains tthe warriors, he wasnt great against rockets the first time, and he had little effect on jokic or murray last year. He has been good against some teams, just not anyone great, unless you think he was good in any of the series i mentioned or i'm forgetting someone.

I would like to see him with better surrounding talent though, royce oneil is good, but a lot of his sucess on D is because rudy exists. Theyre playing him in many lineups with a bunch of guys with little defensive talent, what would he look like if he had ben simmons or paul george out there with him i wonder.

Again... i think hes good, just not as good as he is in the RS