WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

[Old_Blue]

Everyone keeps saying things need to be simplified for the young pup but what’s simpler than “go get an offensive board”. A big with his size should have no problem routinely dropping 10/10 simply off of putbacks, especially on a team that severely lacks rebounding. But this is where his poor feel for the game shines, he has no idea how to position himself on the court. The fact that he gets dejected over busting his ass off and getting boards to make an impact says a lot about this kid.


The more I watch him the more I walk away with the conclusion that he struggles to read the game. You can’t teach basketball instincts, you either have them or you don’t.

At some point, we're all going to learn the whole story behind the Warriors opting to pick Wiseman at #2. The infamous "dinner story" indicates that Myers scouted Wiseman play against Oregon in November, 2019 and was unenthused:

The Warriors weren’t always so high on Wiseman. When Myers scouted Wiseman in November 2019, his impression may have been best described as lukewarm. Wiseman struggled defending Oregon’s pick-and-roll and got into foul trouble. The takeaway: He was big and athletic, but raw.

Eleven months later comes the dinner in Miami. The Warriors put Wiseman through a workout:

Before dinner, the Warriors put Wiseman through a workout. He smoothly executed a battery of drills and impressed with his size and strength. Kerr was floored by the size of his hands.

So many questions to be answered, not the least of which is...Was Myers overruled by Kerr and ownership? As if Wiseman doesn't already have enough pressure on him, he also likely holds the key to someone else's future with the team. Until we know the whole story though, we don't know whose neck the axe will fall upon for what is, more and more, appearing to be a misuse of a very valuable draft asset.

[Outside]

Anyone who didn't think this is how it would go with Wiseman is fooling themselves. We're going to see flashes of good things -- dunking, athleticism, blocks -- but there are going to be long stretches of getting schooled by veterans with grown man strength. Kanter is strong, active, and knows all the tricks of positioning, using his hands, and leverage, and he's the epitome of what Wiseman hasn't seen until the NBA.

Wiseman needs lower body strength, video study, big-man coaching, and time. He has the physical frame and raw athletic ability. Whether he reaches a high level in the NBA depends mostly on his dedication and willingness to embrace the process in front of him. That's what meeting him in person for an extended time at, say, a dinner, can provide insight into.

Criticizing the "dinner story" as a self-delusional con job on themselves by the Warriors front office is just bizzaro world fan fiction for those who want to justify their view that Wiseman struggling against experienced NBA opponents was somehow unexpected.

[TB]

Anyone who didn't think this is how it would go with Wiseman is fooling themselves. We're going to see flashes of good things -- dunking, athleticism, blocks -- but there are going to be long stretches of getting schooled by veterans with grown man strength. Kanter is strong, active, and knows all the tricks of positioning, using his hands, and leverage, and he's the epitome of what Wiseman hasn't seen until the NBA.

Wiseman needs lower body strength, video study, big-man coaching, and time. He has the physical frame and raw athletic ability. Whether he reaches a high level in the NBA depends mostly on his dedication and willingness to embrace the process in front of him. That's what meeting him in person for an extended time at, say, a dinner, can provide insight into.

Criticizing the "dinner story" as a self-delusional con job on themselves by the Warriors front office is just bizzaro world fan fiction for those who want to justify their view that Wiseman struggling against experienced NBA opponents was somehow unexpected.

This.

Wiseman has met or exceeded my expectations in pretty much every aspect other than his hands looking worse than I would have hoped for (and could potentially get better as the game slows down for him). Nobody should be surprised he got destroyed on positioning by Kanter, or bounced off of Ayton on every drive like a rag doll. He's 19.

The issue with Wiseman has nothing to do with Wiseman. When I throw his name around in trade ideas, it's not because I don't like him as a prospect, its purely on trying to determine the window with Steph winning a title as our MVP level player over the next 2 years. And even then i'm not trading him for anything outside of an allstar.

[clyde21]

Anyone who didn't think this is how it would go with Wiseman is fooling themselves.

no -- this is exactly what I expected and the type of player I expected, which was why it was insane to draft him 2nd overall in the modern NBA, especially for a team that emphasizes ball and player movement and positional versatility.

[northoakland510]

Everyone keeps saying things need to be simplified for the young pup but what’s simpler than “go get an offensive board”. A big with his size should have no problem routinely dropping 10/10 simply off of putbacks, especially on a team that severely lacks rebounding. But this is where his poor feel for the game shines, he has no idea how to position himself on the court. The fact that he gets dejected over busting his ass off and getting boards to make an impact says a lot about this kid.


The more I watch him the more I walk away with the conclusion that he struggles to read the game. You can’t teach basketball instincts, you either have them or you don’t.

But they aren't just telling him to go and get an offensive rebound. They are having him set screens for every teammate above the three point line. Now after the the shot they want him to navigate the lane and get position while on the move.

[wco81]

What are the Warriors' options for training him in the offseason?

Have they assigned someone to help him train as well as coach up the things he needs to do for rebounding, challenging shots and then working on a couple of go-to moves?

Obviously he hasn't had any of this in high school nor in college.

Normally team would be doing all of this but with the pandemic, does it limit their opportunities?

They need to hire some big man specialist as opposed to relying on someone already on the staff.


Otherwise, package him up with several other assets.

[FNQ]

Anyone who didn't think this is how it would go with Wiseman is fooling themselves. We're going to see flashes of good things -- dunking, athleticism, blocks -- but there are going to be long stretches of getting schooled by veterans with grown man strength. Kanter is strong, active, and knows all the tricks of positioning, using his hands, and leverage, and he's the epitome of what Wiseman hasn't seen until the NBA.

Wiseman needs lower body strength, video study, big-man coaching, and time. He has the physical frame and raw athletic ability. Whether he reaches a high level in the NBA depends mostly on his dedication and willingness to embrace the process in front of him. That's what meeting him in person for an extended time at, say, a dinner, can provide insight into.

Criticizing the "dinner story" as a self-delusional con job on themselves by the Warriors front office is just bizzaro world fan fiction for those who want to justify their view that Wiseman struggling against experienced NBA opponents was somehow unexpected.

While I agree with most of this, I dont like the idea of hand-waving off the Kanter thing, because it isnt just Kanter. Its everyone. And its not even a strength thing, because if it were, he'd be getting moved off the block *while in position*. But that's just it - he doesn't get position. He doesn't look for the biggest body and be aware of where they are.. he's an empty space rebounder. Just goes to an empty space, hope it bounces that way, and hope no one on the other team tries to contest. That's absolutely a problem a 19 year old can address, but hasn't. Getting low, bracing for contact, using body angles to minimize how much they can move you without it being an obvious foul.. these are the building blocks to becoming a rebounder, and he should be able to do them now, regardless of whether or not they bring immediate success.

Fact is, this isn't something he just misses sporadically.. he just never does it. And a huge part of our rebounding... lets call it success.. over the past 5 years despite often playing small is because our large C (McGee/Zaza/West) or our smallball C (Dray) would frequently find a body, even though they themselves didnt feast on the boards themselves. So there is legit criticism behind it.. not that I think most people criticizing are thinking that way. Take the hands thing for example.. guy catches the majority of passes not zipped to him in tight spaces. Guy also is slow to react to plays around him. Bad reflexes right? Nah... bad hands, and bad hands can NEVAR be fixed!!1!

[DAWill1128]

The narrative surrounding James before the draft amongst critics is actually much different than the current circumstance.

People thought he was a slow footed big guy, which he isn’t. He is actually really fast for a 7 footer or just a center in general.

A lot of people didn’t think he could shoot, he’s actually a good shooter for a center. He’s actually a great shooter for a 19 year old 7-1 guy, really pretty impressive.

People didn’t think he could do anything with the ball, his handle for a center is pretty good.

Most everyone thought he was a good athlete in general outside a few posts that were just non-sensical IMO.

Nobody wanted a brute strong traditional center. People thought that was worthless, ineffective, and outdated with the current game. I never felt that way, I thought a guy like Steven Adams would look good with the guys we have. Bogut looked great even to the end.

Now here we are and the truth is, the guys not enough of a traditional center which was not expected. He doesn’t get deep enough position when catching the ball. He’s not strong on box outs, he’s in a less than favorable position when the ball comes off the rim. When he attacks with the dribble or posts up his handle and moves look fine but his finishes are kinda weak where he gets nudged off his release.

Like someone said earlier, he doesn’t have enough Kanter in him. He doesn’t quite understand how to use a power game to get little leverage advantages around the hoop. He’s more of a run and jump guy.

But having a guy who can run and jump at 7-1 guy with a with a 7-6 wingspan who can shoot the outside shot and has a decent handle is a great position to start for a center.

If you drafted a center and his biggest room for improvement was in the strength department to battle inside that would be the most favorable thing to need to work on. You can have a guy hit the weight room 4-5 days a week and cram protein shakes. He’s 19 so he will fill out regardless, that’s a given and every guy knows that. It’s much more difficult if your Ezili and you have zero shooting touch. Or your Jordan Bell and your 6-7. Or your Kuzmic and you have really limited athleticism.

The strength department for a rookie center isn’t a new thing or uncharted territory. KG had the same issue, they even had him taking minutes at small forward his first two years because they were worried about the physicality. Dwight came in playing power forward and they had bruising centers next to him so the interior wrestling wouldn’t be an issue. Bosh and Aldridge both played power forward for years before switching over. More recently KP is another example, the weight room got him to the next level because he already had the length, shot, and short dribble that Wiseman has.

I don’t think he’s as far off as some people think, his understanding of man and ball is the thing that’s improved the most. I prefer to have a center play free throw line and below like Ayton and Gobert play. Unfortunately our teams success having Dray through Klay switch has changed a lot of the NBA’s stance on that.

Our situation is also different than most teams who ever have a #2 pick. We are a playoff team with featured guys. Traditionally James would have a larger role with bigger highs and lows to work through, more minutes and better stats. His per 36 is basically the same as Aytons was who joined just a bad team in general which is usually how it goes.

Just from the extra attention and spacing that Klay provides Wiseman is going to have it a lot easier next year. The Warriors need to let him take the shots wherever he gets the best looks. In the meantime I prefer the open outside jumper over a contested post up without deep positioning against someone the same size. Even if he misses a few outside jumpers at least it keeps the paint a little more open for the dribble, the Bucks with Brook get that.

[clyde21]

Anyone who didn't think this is how it would go with Wiseman is fooling themselves. We're going to see flashes of good things -- dunking, athleticism, blocks -- but there are going to be long stretches of getting schooled by veterans with grown man strength. Kanter is strong, active, and knows all the tricks of positioning, using his hands, and leverage, and he's the epitome of what Wiseman hasn't seen until the NBA.

Wiseman needs lower body strength, video study, big-man coaching, and time. He has the physical frame and raw athletic ability. Whether he reaches a high level in the NBA depends mostly on his dedication and willingness to embrace the process in front of him. That's what meeting him in person for an extended time at, say, a dinner, can provide insight into.

Criticizing the "dinner story" as a self-delusional con job on themselves by the Warriors front office is just bizzaro world fan fiction for those who want to justify their view that Wiseman struggling against experienced NBA opponents was somehow unexpected.

While I agree with most of this, I dont like the idea of hand-waving off the Kanter thing, because it isnt just Kanter. Its everyone. And its not even a strength thing, because if it were, he'd be getting moved off the block *while in position*. But that's just it - he doesn't get position. He doesn't look for the biggest body and be aware of where they are.. he's an empty space rebounder. Just goes to an empty space, hope it bounces that way, and hope no one on the other team tries to contest. That's absolutely a problem a 19 year old can address, but hasn't. Getting low, bracing for contact, using body angles to minimize how much they can move you without it being an obvious foul.. these are the building blocks to becoming a rebounder, and he should be able to do them now, regardless of whether or not they bring immediate success.

Fact is, this isn't something he just misses sporadically.. he just never does it. And a huge part of our rebounding... lets call it success.. over the past 5 years despite often playing small is because our large C (McGee/Zaza/West) or our smallball C (Dray) would frequently find a body, even though they themselves didnt feast on the boards themselves. So there is legit criticism behind it.. not that I think most people criticizing are thinking that way. Take the hands thing for example.. guy catches the majority of passes not zipped to him in tight spaces. Guy also is slow to react to plays around him. Bad reflexes right? Nah... bad hands, and bad hands can NEVAR be fixed!!1!

bad hands are actually incredibly hard to fix, just ask any NFL WR...you don't just wake up one day and have soft hands, it's not something you can hit the gym for or study tape on.

not saying it's something that can't be improved, but players don't just go from having terrible hands to great hands...I don't recall this ever happening. it's like first step...it's either you have a great first step or don't, you can do things to slightly improve in terms of technique etc., but it's not something that just happens.

[DevinVassell]

What are the Warriors' options for training him in the offseason?

Have they assigned someone to help him train as well as coach up the things he needs to do for rebounding, challenging shots and then working on a couple of go-to moves?

Obviously he hasn't had any of this in high school nor in college.

Normally team would be doing all of this but with the pandemic, does it limit their opportunities?

They need to hire some big man specialist as opposed to relying on someone already on the staff.


Otherwise, package him up with several other assets.

Bogut is effectively just retired. Should still be in reasonable shape. I say get him in here on the training staff and have him go up against Wiseman every practice.

[FNQ]

bad hands are actually incredibly hard to fix, just ask any NFL WR...you don't just wake up one day and have soft hands, it's not something you can hit the gym for or study tape on.

not saying it's something that can't be improved, but players don't just go from having terrible hands to great hands...I don't recall this ever happening. it's like first step...it's either you have a great first step or don't, you can do things to slightly improve in terms of technique etc., but it's not something that just happens.

Bad hands cannot be fixed, in my experience. However there is a HUGE difference between bad hands and slow reflexes and Wiseman's profile is clearly the latter. This is something we used to drill on all the time. Bad hands is typically someone who cannot catch even bunnies, because they basically have feet attached to their wrists. Ekpe Udoh, for example. Wiseman has brought in several bad passes and the majority of entry passes. He's going from situations where he was iso'd and had very easy entries, to one of the quickest passing teams in the game. So when people say he has bad hands, I always remember someone from wayyyyy back who was adamant that Derrick Rose wasnt going to be a good NBA scorer, when they really meant "he can't shoot". But the general argument was easier to process, and they missed the mark because of the lack of details.

Anyone looking at Wiseman and yelling about bad hands is someone reacting based on results and is not looking at the details. I dont think he'll have great hands and be someone who can catch everything that comes his way, but the idea that he's irredeemable there, at least based on what we know now, is way off.

[clyde21]

i disagree, I've seen him wobble and drop bunnies the entire year, I don't think it's a focus or reflex issue (at least not all of it, maybe some), I legitimately think it's a hands issue.

but i guess we'll see.

[ILOVEIT]

omg...just realized a possible upside version of Wiseman.

Joe .... Smith.

I HOPE he turns out better....but I could see a Joe Smith as much as any other predictions.

Think about it and it will start to make sense. He's a little slow...shows multiple skills but not great at any. Weak and get's pushed off the spot.

BTW...that draft was awful! Figures...Warriors got that #1 pick then...and #2 pick in last years weak class

Watch on YouTube

[and1GS]

I'm not sure how you can watch James and say he has bad hands. Most of his points come at the rim and nearly all of those start with a lob pass or difficult entry pass. In both situations he has to catch a ball that's not at chest level with his hands.

He's fumbled some sure and is tentative re: contact, but say that. People make him sound like Ike Diogu, Biyombo or something similar. To me it looks like he's taking too long to process things. Not that he has stone hands.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Sleepy51]

I'm not sure how you can watch James and say he has bad hands. Most of his points come at the rim and nearly all of those start with a long pass or difficult entry pass. In both situations he has to catch a ball that's not at chest level with his hands.

He's fumbled some sure and is tentative re: contact, but say that. People make him sound like Ike Diogu, Biyombo or something similar. To me it looks like he's taking too long to process things. Not that he has stone hands.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

The pass catching and rebounding deficiencies are largely a function of rookie processing/reaction time and 19 y/o reactions to contact.

Typical rookie reacrions are things that will improve. Could he still fail to secure as many passes or rebounds as we would prefer? Could Draymond continue forcing passes into 50/50 positions where he only succeeds some of the time in saving the play? Of course, but that's not bad hands. Bad hands can't catch at all catch the kinds of passes that JW drops some of some of the time. He also does secure quite a few high risk and poorly located passes that require good hand eye coordination to secure. He also turns many of those catches into some high degree of difficulty finishes as well. People with bad hands not only can't catch, when they do catch they certsinly can't convert and finish with any level of touch or finesse, which he clearly can. He has a consistency problem with quick reactions in contact, but it is not a coordination/ability deficit. Calling it such is a dumb narrative.

Calling it "bad hands" gives it the kind catchphrase finality that allows internets combatants to argue that it's a closed case. It's essentially the shouting "Beghazi" of the James Wiseman discussion. Just tune it out.

[EvanZ]

Hopefully he improves the hands in the same way Klay improved his layups.

[EvanZ]

Criticizing the "dinner story" as a self-delusional con job on themselves by the Warriors front office is just bizzaro world fan fiction for those who want to justify their view that Wiseman struggling against experienced NBA opponents was somehow unexpected.

I don't see how the dinner story is related at all to his struggles being unexpected. The dinner story is just bad PR and reinforces that the process the FO used to make this pick was...as you put it...bizzaro.

[Coxy]

One of my main fears for Wiseman and being developed in the Warriors system is over coaching. I’ve seen it happen in a few professional sports around the world where players get brought into professional programs after showing great potential as youngsters, and they are forced into a regimented and structured environment. It can mess them early on because the freedom and natural instinct is then suppressed and they are forced into learning a role, or are given a development program that is very rigid and can suck the life out of the love of the game. Jimmy Wiseguy is now here. Every man and his dig is now scrutinising every touch he has, and what was wrong with it. You can see as the season has rolled by that in some ways he has gotten worse, and I think that is due to him being over coached. I really worry that the front office don’t really know what to do with him, because we have no history of developing a big like him. I hope they aren’t confusing him daily by critiquing him to the point where the instincts are suppressed because he has to get each and every fundamental thing correct, or else he gets hooked and called out for it.

He is a great kid with the right attitude to be coached, and has the potential of a young Chris Bosh, so all signs point upwards for him. I just hope our front office doesn’t mess it up, because I’ve seen it happen in other sports.

[Onus]

One of my main fears for Wiseman and being developed in the Warriors system is over coaching. I’ve seen it happen in a few professional sports around the world where players get brought into professional programs after showing great potential as youngsters, and they are forced into a regimented and structured environment. It can mess them early on because the freedom and natural instinct is then suppressed and they are forced into learning a role, or are given a development program that is very rigid and can suck the life out of the love of the game. Jimmy Wiseguy is now here. Every man and his dig is now scrutinising every touch he has, and what was wrong with it. You can see as the season has rolled by that in some ways he has gotten worse, and I think that is due to him being over coached. I really worry that the front office don’t really know what to do with him, because we have no history of developing a big like him. I hope they aren’t confusing him daily by critiquing him to the point where the instincts are suppressed because he has to get each and every fundamental thing correct, or else he gets hooked and called out for it.

He is a great kid with the right attitude to be coached, and has the potential of a young Chris Bosh, so all signs point upwards for him. I just hope our front office doesn’t mess it up, because I’ve seen it happen in other sports.

His instincts are to jack up jump shots and to avoid contact. Penny started to coach that out of him in high school and yea I want that to continue here.

[wco81]

Yeah if anything he needs more structure.

He basically was a high schooler coming into the NBA. I don't know if he hired any good coaches to work with him in the year before the draft but probably not.

That's what I worried about when I saw those training videos of him dribbling like he think's he's KD or something. No if he developed some perimeter skills later, that's great but he has to concentrate on the things that take advantage of his size, length and athleticism first. That means getting rebounds, challenging shots, getting good cutbacks and finishing strong off good passes.

All the other stuff is icing on the cake.