Lets talk Zach Lavine

[TheSuzerain]

The Heat are a squad of C&S shooters, so Butler who is really a PG, was a perfect fit. Zach replacing Butler doesn't do as well because Zach gives them more of what the Heat are already rich in.

Bulls are the opposite, they lack efficient scoring. The TS% of most of our starters is terrible, Lavine is carrying the entire starting unit's scoring efficiency solo.

Coby vs Nunn: 53% TS vs 59% TS
Williams vs Robinson: 55% TS vs 61% TS
Carter vs Adebayo: 61% TS vs 64% TS

Jimmy is actually the worst scorer on the Heat, 56% TS, and nowhere close to Lavine's 65%. Jimmy on the current Bulls replacing Zach, we're most certainly worse. Because Jimmy passes more, 8 apg to Zach's 5, which means more of our scoring comes from 53% Coby and the other inefficient starters, and Butler's own scoring is just as low efficiency. TBH, Butler probably doesn't even have 8 apg on this team, because your teammates actually have to hit their shots to register an assist. Coby going 0-6 from 3 is a perfectly normal night for us.

The Heat have been underrated for years, even before last season. They were a 44 win playoff team without Butler when their high usage guards were Tyler Johnson & Dion Waiters. Butler replacing those two guys is obviously a massive improvement, I wasn't surprised how well they did.

The Bulls without Lavine are the worst team in the league, below Detroit & Minny. Very obviously, as we only squeaked wins by both teams even with ultra efficient scoring from Lavine both games. You replace Lavine with an average night from Steph Curry both games, and we lose both games. That's a pretty sobering thought about what you need to replace Zach with to beat the worst teams in the league.

+1. Very well explained and I 2nd to that.

To all the people giving Butler way more credit than he deserves, you don't have to look further than just look his last year with the Bulls.

Butler was playing with Rondo and D-Wade and bunch of vets and young players, yet we had the same freaking exact record as we have currently after 34 games (16-18). Now tell me, how is Butler better than lavine? Butler fits in very nicely with how Heat is built so he is going to look good. Give Lavine that kind of shooters next to him and a DPOY material in Bam Adebayo and see how he would look.

I think we are really really underrating Lavine here and Bulls and other fans in general. What Lavine is doing this year is historically great season but not having good teammates hurts his image.

lmao Rondo and D-Wade were trash dude. That Bulls team sucked other than Niko who was merely decent.

[WindyCityBorn]

We would be better with Butler. He's still a better offensive player than Lavine.

We have plenty of C&S shooters ready to be unlocked by a proficient playmaker.

No he is not is not a better offensive player than LaVine. Not even close.

He is better. Playmaking is the most valuable offensive tool in a star player, and Butler is fantastic at that.

Butler isn’t Doncic or Harden and our guys would not suddenly start making their open shots because Butler made the pass instead of Zach. It’s clear who is better this year and it definitely isn’t Butler.

Using this narrow logic Butler is a better offensive player than Curry, Irving, Thompson, Kawhi, George and whole bunch of others and we know that isn’t true. 56 TS% is poop for a star. And that is with it being propped by flopping for free throws like Young.

[TheSuzerain]

No he is not is not a better offensive player than LaVine. Not even close.

He is better. Playmaking is the most valuable offensive tool in a star player, and Butler is fantastic at that.

Butler isn’t Doncic or Harden and our guys would not suddenly start making their open shots because Butler made the pass instead of Zach. It’s clear who is better this year and it definitely isn’t Butler.

Using this narrow logic Butler is a better offensive player than Curry, Irving, Thompson, Kawhi, George and whole bunch of others and we know that isn’t true. 56 TS% is poop for a star. And that is with it being propped by flopping for free throws like Young.

Curry is a fantastic passer/playmaker.

Butler is better than Klay and George offensively.

Irving/Kawhi I'd probably give an edge over Butler. They give crazy scoring without an accompanying turnover problem which saps Lavine's impact.

[WindyCityBorn]

He is better. Playmaking is the most valuable offensive tool in a star player, and Butler is fantastic at that.

Butler isn’t Doncic or Harden and our guys would not suddenly start making their open shots because Butler made the pass instead of Zach. It’s clear who is better this year and it definitely isn’t Butler.

Using this narrow logic Butler is a better offensive player than Curry, Irving, Thompson, Kawhi, George and whole bunch of others and we know that isn’t true. 56 TS% is poop for a star. And that is with it being propped by flopping for free throws like Young.

Curry is a fantastic passer/playmaker.

Butler is better than Klay and George offensively.

Irving/Kawhi I'd probably give an edge over Butler. They give crazy scoring without an accompanying turnover problem which saps Lavine's impact.

I agree about LaVine’s turnovers being thebig negative for him on offense, but if he cuts that down by just one a game to 3 instead of 4 it is on par with other SGs. but wow you hold Butler in high regard. He is a great overall player, but I have never considered him great offensive player and the stats don’t support it either. He certainly won’t go down in history as better offensive player than Klay Thompson. I could see either way on George. He is way more talented than Butler and has vastly outplayed Butler this season, but he is one of the worst clutch players in the league. Butler has been better when it matters.

[TheSuzerain]

Butler isn’t Doncic or Harden and our guys would not suddenly start making their open shots because Butler made the pass instead of Zach. It’s clear who is better this year and it definitely isn’t Butler.

Using this narrow logic Butler is a better offensive player than Curry, Irving, Thompson, Kawhi, George and whole bunch of others and we know that isn’t true. 56 TS% is poop for a star. And that is with it being propped by flopping for free throws like Young.

Curry is a fantastic passer/playmaker.

Butler is better than Klay and George offensively.

Irving/Kawhi I'd probably give an edge over Butler. They give crazy scoring without an accompanying turnover problem which saps Lavine's impact.

I agree but LaVine’s turnovers being being big beyond for him on offenses, but wow you hold Butler in high regard. He is a great overall player, but I have never considered him great offensive player and the stats don’t support it either.

Sure they do support him as elite. What stats are you looking at?

I mean the dude just carried a team to the finals and they buzzsawed some very strong teams/defenses on their way there. Then to cap it off, he had a couple historically good games against a very strong Lakers squad.

There's a reason players like Beal/Lavine can put up gaudy numbers but the overall team performance is mediocre. That doesn't happen with Butler. His teams always win.

[WindyCityBorn]

Curry is a fantastic passer/playmaker.

Butler is better than Klay and George offensively.

Irving/Kawhi I'd probably give an edge over Butler. They give crazy scoring without an accompanying turnover problem which saps Lavine's impact.

I agree but LaVine’s turnovers being being big beyond for him on offenses, but wow you hold Butler in high regard. He is a great overall player, but I have never considered him great offensive player and the stats don’t support it either.

Sure they do support him as elite. What stats are you looking at?

I mean the dude just carried a team to the finals and they buzzsawed some very strong teams/defenses on their way there. Then to cap it off, he had a couple historically good games against a very strong Lakers squad.

There's a reason players like Beal/Lavine can put up gaudy numbers but the overall team performance is mediocre. That doesn't happen with Butler. His teams always win.

When is last time Butler played on team without a good supporting cast? That last season with the Bulls we were not good. Don’t pretend he makes wine out of water.

[TheSuzerain]

I agree but LaVine’s turnovers being being big beyond for him on offenses, but wow you hold Butler in high regard. He is a great overall player, but I have never considered him great offensive player and the stats don’t support it either.

Sure they do support him as elite. What stats are you looking at?

I mean the dude just carried a team to the finals and they buzzsawed some very strong teams/defenses on their way there. Then to cap it off, he had a couple historically good games against a very strong Lakers squad.

There's a reason players like Beal/Lavine can put up gaudy numbers but the overall team performance is mediocre. That doesn't happen with Butler. His teams always win.

When is last time Butler played on team without a good supporting cast? That last season with the Bulls we were not good. Don’t pretend he makes wine out of water.

The TWolves. You know, the worst team in the league?

Butler took those dudes to the playoffs.

And let's not pretend anybody thought Miami was a good supporting cast. Nobody thought they would contend, and Butler dragged them to the finals.

[WindyCityBorn]

Sure they do support him as elite. What stats are you looking at?

I mean the dude just carried a team to the finals and they buzzsawed some very strong teams/defenses on their way there. Then to cap it off, he had a couple historically good games against a very strong Lakers squad.

There's a reason players like Beal/Lavine can put up gaudy numbers but the overall team performance is mediocre. That doesn't happen with Butler. His teams always win.

When is last time Butler played on team without a good supporting cast? That last season with the Bulls we were not good. Don’t pretend he makes wine out of water.

The TWolves. You know, the worst team in the league?

Butler took those dudes to the playoffs.

And let's not pretend anybody thought Miami was a good supporting cast. Nobody thought they would contend, and Butler dragged them to the finals.

The same T-Wolves with all-star in Towns and really good PG at the time in Teague. That was not a team devoid of talent. Miami was already a winning team. They were not devoid of talent. And the East was piss weak and still is.

[wickywack]

When is last time Butler played on team without a good supporting cast? That last season with the Bulls we were not good. Don’t pretend he makes wine out of water.

The TWolves. You know, the worst team in the league?

Butler took those dudes to the playoffs.

And let's not pretend anybody thought Miami was a good supporting cast. Nobody thought they would contend, and Butler dragged them to the finals.

The same T-Wolves with all-star in Towns and really good PG at the time in Teague. That was not a team devoid of talent. Miami was already a winning team. They were not devoid of talent. And the East was piss weak and still is.

Butler's teams have gotten consistently better when he arrived, and they've gotten consistently worse if/when he left. It's really hard to look at the numbers and argue against that. The Wolves had a significantly sub-.500 record with Towns and Teague and no Butler. They were significantly above .500 with Butler. Miami was a sub-.500 team the year before Butler. Even the Bulls were a .500 team in Butler's last year - and cratered to a sub 30 win team after he left.

He's certainly can rub some folks the wrong way, but it's just remarkable how much better - consistently - his teams are with him on the floor.

[imagge]

Way too much credit to Jimmy Butler for the T'Wolves playoff appearance and given what Thibs has done with the Knicks, the wolves making the playoffs that year with young Towns being an all star is more of a positive for Thibs than Jimmy. A healthy 76'ers are much better this year than they were with Jimmy... last year version had almost 40 games missed with Embiid and Simmons....Last year was a fluke the heat do not make it to the finals if the season was not played in a bubble....the young players do not play out of their minds in a road environment.

[WindyCityBorn]

The TWolves. You know, the worst team in the league?

Butler took those dudes to the playoffs.

And let's not pretend anybody thought Miami was a good supporting cast. Nobody thought they would contend, and Butler dragged them to the finals.

The same T-Wolves with all-star in Towns and really good PG at the time in Teague. That was not a team devoid of talent. Miami was already a winning team. They were not devoid of talent. And the East was piss weak and still is.

Butler's teams have gotten consistently better when he arrived, and they've gotten consistently worse if/when he left. It's really hard to look at the numbers and argue against that. The Wolves had a significantly sub-.500 record with Towns and Teague and no Butler. They were significantly above .500 with Butler. Miami was a sub-.500 team the year before Butler. Even the Bulls were a .500 team in Butler's last year - and cratered to a sub 30 win team after he left.

He's certainly can rub some folks the wrong way, but it's just remarkable how much better - consistently - his teams are with him on the floor.

Philly is worse now?

[wickywack]

The same T-Wolves with all-star in Towns and really good PG at the time in Teague. That was not a team devoid of talent. Miami was already a winning team. They were not devoid of talent. And the East was piss weak and still is.

Butler's teams have gotten consistently better when he arrived, and they've gotten consistently worse if/when he left. It's really hard to look at the numbers and argue against that. The Wolves had a significantly sub-.500 record with Towns and Teague and no Butler. They were significantly above .500 with Butler. Miami was a sub-.500 team the year before Butler. Even the Bulls were a .500 team in Butler's last year - and cratered to a sub 30 win team after he left.

He's certainly can rub some folks the wrong way, but it's just remarkable how much better - consistently - his teams are with him on the floor.

Philly is worse now?

They were clearly worse the year after Butler left. Worse regular season and swept in the first round.

Embiid took a giant step forward this season. We'll see how they do in the postseason. I think they'd be better - maybe even the favorites - if they managed to keep Butler.

[Cabbage bulls]

Butler is not a superior offensive player to Zach. What a freaking joke that claim is.

[WindyCityBorn]

Butler is not a superior offensive player to Zach. What a freaking joke that claim is.

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

[Cabbage bulls]

Butler is not a superior offensive player to Zach. What a freaking joke that claim is.

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

This x100. I can certainly see somebody arguing Butler is the better OVERALL player, and that would be because of his elite defensive ability. But Butler just isn't as good as LaVine offensively. Zach LaVine is 8th in the NBA in TS% this year. He is doing that while scoring 29 points per game. Of all the 7 players ahead of Zach in TS%, NONE are scoring more than 15 points per game. Durant is 9th in TS%, right behind Zach. Durant is also scoring 29 points per game, but has only played 19 games vs Zach's 34 games.

LaVine is an elite offensive player in this league. He is without question better than Butler offensively.

[wickywack]

Butler is not a superior offensive player to Zach. What a freaking joke that claim is.

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

Offense isn't just shooting. Butler gives you significantly more assists, significantly fewer turnovers, and crashes the offensive glass to boot.

LaVine obviously shoots better. Way better. If Butler could *shoot* like LaVine, he'd be scary good. Maybe all time great good.

[TyrusRose2425]

I wouldn't have traded Butler for Lavine and still wouldn't with a time machine. What I would have done is try to trade for Zach or signed him as a free agent. Remember, people were iffy about matching that Sacramento offer (and no other team offered more), I think he could have been had as a free agent to be paired with Jimmy. I think Jimmy is the better player though it's definitely debatable. Lavine is the better offensive player though for sure.

[TheSuzerain]

Butler is not a superior offensive player to Zach. What a freaking joke that claim is.

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

This x100. I can certainly see somebody arguing Butler is the better OVERALL player, and that would be because of his elite defensive ability. But Butler just isn't as good as LaVine offensively. Zach LaVine is 8th in the NBA in TS% this year. He is doing that while scoring 29 points per game. Of all the 7 players ahead of Zach in TS%, NONE are scoring more than 15 points per game. Durant is 9th in TS%, right behind Zach. Durant is also scoring 29 points per game, but has only played 19 games vs Zach's 34 games.

LaVine is an elite offensive player in this league. He is without question better than Butler offensively.

But he's not.

Lavine is shooting insane percentages this year, and yet Butler still clears him rather easily by O-Rating. Turnovers are very damaging to composite stats which hurts Lavine. Butler meanwhile is perhaps best in the league at avoiding turnovers while still delivering star playmaking.

We are less than a year removed from Butler taking a team to the finals where he outproduced LeBron.

What else needs to be said?

[PaKii94]

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

This x100. I can certainly see somebody arguing Butler is the better OVERALL player, and that would be because of his elite defensive ability. But Butler just isn't as good as LaVine offensively. Zach LaVine is 8th in the NBA in TS% this year. He is doing that while scoring 29 points per game. Of all the 7 players ahead of Zach in TS%, NONE are scoring more than 15 points per game. Durant is 9th in TS%, right behind Zach. Durant is also scoring 29 points per game, but has only played 19 games vs Zach's 34 games.

LaVine is an elite offensive player in this league. He is without question better than Butler offensively.

But he's not.

Lavine is shooting insane percentages this year, and yet Butler still clears him rather easily by O-Rating. Turnovers are very damaging to composite stats which hurts Lavine. Butler meanwhile is perhaps best in the league at avoiding turnovers while still delivering star playmaking.

We are less than a year removed from Butler taking a team to the finals where he outproduced LeBron.

What else needs to be said?

Zach has the raw talent to put up points oozing from him. Jimmy always looks labored into getting his points. Besides that Jimmy has him beat with literally everything else. That's not disrespecting Zach. That's just a fact of ball. Jimmy is a winner from the minute he stepped on the court. Zach is still learning it (and hopefully he can get to jimmy's level in that regard)

[WindyCityBorn]

Some people will not give LaVine anything over Butler, that claim is particularly ridiculous right now. If Butler had LaVine’s offensive ability he would be in discussion for best player in the NBA like a Kawhi Leonard, but he doesn’t.

This x100. I can certainly see somebody arguing Butler is the better OVERALL player, and that would be because of his elite defensive ability. But Butler just isn't as good as LaVine offensively. Zach LaVine is 8th in the NBA in TS% this year. He is doing that while scoring 29 points per game. Of all the 7 players ahead of Zach in TS%, NONE are scoring more than 15 points per game. Durant is 9th in TS%, right behind Zach. Durant is also scoring 29 points per game, but has only played 19 games vs Zach's 34 games.

LaVine is an elite offensive player in this league. He is without question better than Butler offensively.

But he's not.

Lavine is shooting insane percentages this year, and yet Butler still clears him rather easily by O-Rating. Turnovers are very damaging to composite stats which hurts Lavine. Butler meanwhile is perhaps best in the league at avoiding turnovers while still delivering star playmaking.

We are less than a year removed from Butler taking a team to the finals where he outproduced LeBron.

What else needs to be said?

Butler basically in the last years of prime and still a worse offensive player than Zach who hasn’t entered his. The talent are not really comparable. He is a great all-around, but I will never agree that he is better offensive player. That 1.5 less turnovers doesn’t the gap. Ratings for a guy playing with 4 other guys who would not be starting for just about any other team in the league is not a convincing argument.