Cavs 2020-21 season

[JonFromVA]

Do you guys have any idea when Larry Nance comes back?

Also what do you guys see his role as with a healthy Kevin love? Over/under 30 mins a game?

Unless there are set backs Nance and Love should be back after the break. Ideal minutes for Larry may be 28mpg, and that might just happen if Love can stay on the floor.

Love may not play back to backs, though, so that may push Larry's minutes higher.

A good argument can be made that Nance should start, but I doubt Bickerstaff has the guts to bench Love - and Nance's minutes likely need to be limited to try to keep him healthy.

[Stillwater]

There is a rumor the Mavs are trying to get KLove for the expirings of THJ and Johnson, I doubt it has legs but if they can send those two and one of Terry(pg),Hinton(swingman) or Bey(3-4) with Cavs sending Love and McGee it could work out where Cavs at least get a cheap developmental rookie all 3 of whom have starter upsides. I question they would really send THJ though and if they did I am expecting he would want to go to a third team so maybe Cavs could get a couple 2nds sending him to a 3rd team and eating a longer deal.
I tried it using Denver where Cavs take back the extra year of Harris from Denver who gives the Cavs a couple 2nds to get the upgrade in THJ and his expiring.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7410503
also think depending on wo Dallas added of the 3 rookies they could also throw in their 22 2nd or something

[Harper4Ferry?]

hoping Love will take a similar buyout to Blake this offseason. Maybe he gives up 5-6 million a season and we can stretch waive his 22-23 salary.

I'm open to buying out Love the summer before the last year of his deal, but his situation really isn't the same as Blake's. Blake is half crippled when he's healthy enough to play. He can't dunk. He can barely run and jump. That's not Love, at least not yet.

When healthy, Love is still is still a useful player and you're better of paying him $30M to play, and having the option of trading his contract at some point over the next 18 months, than paying him $23M not play, closing the books on a potential trade, and hoping that the player you can get with the $7M in cap savings makes up for Love being gone.

Assuming he doesn't continue to miss huge swaths of the season, Love is a $15-20M player. He's actually better than Bersans and Lauri. It's kind of an open debate as to whether Blake Griffin is still and NBA player anymore. If so, Blake's a league minimum player who can give you minimal minutes deep off the bench. That type of delta is when a buyout a makes sense.

I'll just bet that a guy that's missed 22,23,60,6 and 34(and counting) games over the last 5 years isn't worth anything to us because he can't play. I'm looking forward to the day when he's someone else's problem, even though I do like his off the court work.

[Harper4Ferry?]

There is a rumor the Mavs are trying to get KLove for the expirings of THJ and Johnson, I doubt it has legs but if they can send those two and one of Terry(pg),Hinton(swingman) or Bey(3-4) with Cavs sending Love and McGee it could work out where Cavs at least get a cheap developmental rookie all 3 of whom have starter upsides. I question they would really send THJ though and if they did I am expecting he would want to go to a third team so maybe Cavs could get a couple 2nds sending him to a 3rd team and eating a longer deal.
I tried it using Denver where Cavs take back the extra year of Harris from Denver who gives the Cavs a couple 2nds to get the upgrade in THJ and his expiring.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7410503
also think depending on wo Dallas added of the 3 rookies they could also throw in their 22 2nd or something

Not a horrible idea, but I doubt that happens. Maybe we could get Harris and one of the developmental players that Denver has. Their bench is littered with rotation guys(for us, at least)

[Stillwater]

There is a rumor the Mavs are trying to get KLove for the expirings of THJ and Johnson, I doubt it has legs but if they can send those two and one of Terry(pg),Hinton(swingman) or Bey(3-4) with Cavs sending Love and McGee it could work out where Cavs at least get a cheap developmental rookie all 3 of whom have starter upsides. I question they would really send THJ though and if they did I am expecting he would want to go to a third team so maybe Cavs could get a couple 2nds sending him to a 3rd team and eating a longer deal.
I tried it using Denver where Cavs take back the extra year of Harris from Denver who gives the Cavs a couple 2nds to get the upgrade in THJ and his expiring.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7410503
also think depending on wo Dallas added of the 3 rookies they could also throw in their 22 2nd or something

Not a horrible idea, but I doubt that happens. Maybe we could get Harris and one of the developmental players that Denver has. Their bench is littered with rotation guys(for us, at least)

I guess instead of a pick the Cavs would maybe be interested in somebody on the Nuggets roster thats out of the rotation but outside of Hartenstein I dont see anyone they'd part with in this deal and so I opted for a 2nd as a maybe but my preference would be they sent a 2nd to Dallas and Dallas sent CLE their 21 2nd.
The main incentive for me in the idea is getting Ty Terry who I think has a job here pretty fast in the rotation despite being a string bean or Nate Hinton who is an elite rebounder from the wing and would make a plug and play back up to Okoro with similar athleticism and court vision.Or Bey who is an interesting 3-4 or moreso a 4-3 relentless rebounder that would be a decent player if his shooting from outside can transfer at a higher volume.
I like those 3 more than anyone on Denvers roster {that would be available} I mean if Denver said here take Nnaji then sure that kid is a future all star on a different roster.

[jbk1234]

hoping Love will take a similar buyout to Blake this offseason. Maybe he gives up 5-6 million a season and we can stretch waive his 22-23 salary.

I'm open to buying out Love the summer before the last year of his deal, but his situation really isn't the same as Blake's. Blake is half crippled when he's healthy enough to play. He can't dunk. He can barely run and jump. That's not Love, at least not yet.

When healthy, Love is still is still a useful player and you're better of paying him $30M to play, and having the option of trading his contract at some point over the next 18 months, than paying him $23M not play, closing the books on a potential trade, and hoping that the player you can get with the $7M in cap savings makes up for Love being gone.

Assuming he doesn't continue to miss huge swaths of the season, Love is a $15-20M player. He's actually better than Bersans and Lauri. It's kind of an open debate as to whether Blake Griffin is still and NBA player anymore. If so, Blake's a league minimum player who can give you minimal minutes deep off the bench. That type of delta is when a buyout a makes sense.

I'll just bet that a guy that's missed 22,23,60,6 and 34(and counting) games over the last 5 years isn't worth anything to us because he can't play. I'm looking forward to the day when he's someone else's problem, even though I do like his off the court work.

What I don't know, because Love hasn't exactly been generous with the details surrounding his calf strain, is whether there's concern about his Achilles. If a player is at a point in his career where he doesn't want risk a serious injury, I get it. If a player doesn't want to play through discomfort or pain anymore, I get that as well.

But if the end result is you play two games and miss a half a season, two years after having elective surgery that cost you a full season, you really need to be considering a medical retirement.

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[JonFromVA]

I'm open to buying out Love the summer before the last year of his deal, but his situation really isn't the same as Blake's. Blake is half crippled when he's healthy enough to play. He can't dunk. He can barely run and jump. That's not Love, at least not yet.

When healthy, Love is still is still a useful player and you're better of paying him $30M to play, and having the option of trading his contract at some point over the next 18 months, than paying him $23M not play, closing the books on a potential trade, and hoping that the player you can get with the $7M in cap savings makes up for Love being gone.

Assuming he doesn't continue to miss huge swaths of the season, Love is a $15-20M player. He's actually better than Bersans and Lauri. It's kind of an open debate as to whether Blake Griffin is still and NBA player anymore. If so, Blake's a league minimum player who can give you minimal minutes deep off the bench. That type of delta is when a buyout a makes sense.

I'll just bet that a guy that's missed 22,23,60,6 and 34(and counting) games over the last 5 years isn't worth anything to us because he can't play. I'm looking forward to the day when he's someone else's problem, even though I do like his off the court work.

What I don't know, because Love hasn't exactly been generous with the details surrounding his calf strain, is whether there's concern about his Achilles. If a player is at a point in his career where he doesn't want risk a serious injury, I get it. If a player doesn't want to play through discomfort or pain anymore, I get that as well.

But if the end result is you play two games and miss a half a season, two years after having elective surgery that cost you a full season, you really need to be considering a medical retirement.

Why wouldn't there be concern? For instance, it's believed that Durant's Achilles injury occurred because of trying to play with a calf strain.

Plus any recovery process is a series of check points. Whether Kevin has had setbacks in his recovery or if it's just taken longer than the minimal possible time is something they're going to try to keep private unless Kevin decides to talk about it.

And even when the team doctors say that a condition can't get worse by playing on it, they know very little with actual certainty. I think they still say to this day will say that Kyrie's knee injury was a fluke injury that had nothing to do with his previous knee injury ... but we all saw his knee explode on light contact while Klay barely flinched.

[jbk1234]

I'll just bet that a guy that's missed 22,23,60,6 and 34(and counting) games over the last 5 years isn't worth anything to us because he can't play. I'm looking forward to the day when he's someone else's problem, even though I do like his off the court work.

What I don't know, because Love hasn't exactly been generous with the details surrounding his calf strain, is whether there's concern about his Achilles. If a player is at a point in his career where he doesn't want risk a serious injury, I get it. If a player doesn't want to play through discomfort or pain anymore, I get that as well.

But if the end result is you play two games and miss a half a season, two years after having elective surgery that cost you a full season, you really need to be considering a medical retirement.

Why wouldn't there be concern? For instance, it's believed that Durant's Achilles injury occurred because of trying to play with a calf strain.

Plus any recovery process is a series of check points. Whether Kevin has had setbacks in his recovery or if it's just taken longer than the minimal possible time is something they're going to try to keep private unless Kevin decides to talk about it.

And even when the team doctors say that a condition can't get worse by playing on it, they know very little with actual certainty. I think they still say to this day will say that Kyrie's knee injury was a fluke injury that had nothing to do with his previous knee injury ... but we all saw his knee explode on light contact while Klay barely flinched.

I'll start with Kyrie and work backwards. If Kyrie's options were to sit out the Finals and have surgery, or chance it and play in the Finals, then Kyrie wasn't going to sit out.

My frustration with Love is that he's not really talking about what's going on and that allows for all types of concern to develop regarding his own state of mind. Is he angry he wasn't traded to Portland? Is he angling for a buyout? Does he think the Cavs will get frustrated enough with him that they'll deal him for expiring contracts? Is he deluding himself into believing there's another team that would trade expiring contracts for him under the present circumstances?

Is the concern about his Achilles real enough that he's only going to play for the Cavs if he experiences zero discomfort going forward? Has he asked himself what that means in terms of how much he's actually going to play or whether that day might not come? Has he gotten additional testing and/or a second opinion?

I mean he didn't play basketball for eight months, and the Cavs had already started limiting his minutes towards the end of last season, so short-term wear and tear isn't the issue here.

[JonFromVA]

What I don't know, because Love hasn't exactly been generous with the details surrounding his calf strain, is whether there's concern about his Achilles. If a player is at a point in his career where he doesn't want risk a serious injury, I get it. If a player doesn't want to play through discomfort or pain anymore, I get that as well.

But if the end result is you play two games and miss a half a season, two years after having elective surgery that cost you a full season, you really need to be considering a medical retirement.

Why wouldn't there be concern? For instance, it's believed that Durant's Achilles injury occurred because of trying to play with a calf strain.

Plus any recovery process is a series of check points. Whether Kevin has had setbacks in his recovery or if it's just taken longer than the minimal possible time is something they're going to try to keep private unless Kevin decides to talk about it.

And even when the team doctors say that a condition can't get worse by playing on it, they know very little with actual certainty. I think they still say to this day will say that Kyrie's knee injury was a fluke injury that had nothing to do with his previous knee injury ... but we all saw his knee explode on light contact while Klay barely flinched.

I'll start with Kyrie and work backwards. If Kyrie's options were to sit out the Finals and have surgery, or chance it and play in the Finals, then Kyrie wasn't going to sit out.

My frustration with Love is that he's not really talking about what's going on and that allows for all types of concern to develop regarding his own state of mind. Is he angry he wasn't traded to Portland? Is he angling for a buyout? Does he think the Cavs will get frustrated enough with him that they'll deal him for expiring contracts? Is he deluding himself into believing there's another team that would trade expiring contracts for him under the present circumstances?

Is the concern about his Achilles real enough that he's only going to play for the Cavs if he experiences zero discomfort going forward? Has he asked himself what that means in terms of how much he's actually going to play or whether that day might not come? Has he gotten additional testing and/or a second opinion?

I mean he didn't play basketball for eight months, and the Cavs had already started limiting his minutes towards the end of last season, so short-term wear and tear isn't the issue here.

lol, I think the Cavs give us enough drama without worrying about whether there's bonus drama brewing under the surface.

If he comes in to practice with a fat suit on, then sure, ... it's on; but until then I'm going to presume no matter his goals - he's best served by getting healthy, staying healthy, and playing well.

[jbk1234]

Why wouldn't there be concern? For instance, it's believed that Durant's Achilles injury occurred because of trying to play with a calf strain.

Plus any recovery process is a series of check points. Whether Kevin has had setbacks in his recovery or if it's just taken longer than the minimal possible time is something they're going to try to keep private unless Kevin decides to talk about it.

And even when the team doctors say that a condition can't get worse by playing on it, they know very little with actual certainty. I think they still say to this day will say that Kyrie's knee injury was a fluke injury that had nothing to do with his previous knee injury ... but we all saw his knee explode on light contact while Klay barely flinched.

I'll start with Kyrie and work backwards. If Kyrie's options were to sit out the Finals and have surgery, or chance it and play in the Finals, then Kyrie wasn't going to sit out.

My frustration with Love is that he's not really talking about what's going on and that allows for all types of concern to develop regarding his own state of mind. Is he angry he wasn't traded to Portland? Is he angling for a buyout? Does he think the Cavs will get frustrated enough with him that they'll deal him for expiring contracts? Is he deluding himself into believing there's another team that would trade expiring contracts for him under the present circumstances?

Is the concern about his Achilles real enough that he's only going to play for the Cavs if he experiences zero discomfort going forward? Has he asked himself what that means in terms of how much he's actually going to play or whether that day might not come? Has he gotten additional testing and/or a second opinion?

I mean he didn't play basketball for eight months, and the Cavs had already started limiting his minutes towards the end of last season, so short-term wear and tear isn't the issue here.

lol, I think the Cavs give us enough drama without worrying about whether there's bonus drama brewing under the surface.

If he comes in to practice with a fat suit on, then sure, ... it's on; but until then I'm going to presume no matter his goals - he's best served by getting healthy, staying healthy, and playing well.

Of course he's best served by doing that, but what if getting 100% healthy isn't in the cards? What if rest alone won't alleviate further risk at this point in his career? I'd really like to hear something, from Kevin himself, along the lines of *I went to see a specialist to get a second opinion and he agrees with the prescribed course of treatment. The strain will heal on its own with rest and it shouldn't be much longer.*

What I don't want to hear a month from now is that Kevin Love is expected to have another surgery and will miss the remainder of season because he waited until two-thirds of the season had passed to determine what was taking so long.

[Stillwater]

I wouldnt be surprised if they try to get a late first using Dre and or others like Prince and Cedi to send out as part of a Love trade at this point given he does nothing for this roster on the bench anyway and its about time he becomes someone elses headache...
but we all know its more likely theyd just bury him in the depth chart before sending a 1st away for a top 55 protected smh

[JonFromVA]

I'll start with Kyrie and work backwards. If Kyrie's options were to sit out the Finals and have surgery, or chance it and play in the Finals, then Kyrie wasn't going to sit out.

My frustration with Love is that he's not really talking about what's going on and that allows for all types of concern to develop regarding his own state of mind. Is he angry he wasn't traded to Portland? Is he angling for a buyout? Does he think the Cavs will get frustrated enough with him that they'll deal him for expiring contracts? Is he deluding himself into believing there's another team that would trade expiring contracts for him under the present circumstances?

Is the concern about his Achilles real enough that he's only going to play for the Cavs if he experiences zero discomfort going forward? Has he asked himself what that means in terms of how much he's actually going to play or whether that day might not come? Has he gotten additional testing and/or a second opinion?

I mean he didn't play basketball for eight months, and the Cavs had already started limiting his minutes towards the end of last season, so short-term wear and tear isn't the issue here.

lol, I think the Cavs give us enough drama without worrying about whether there's bonus drama brewing under the surface.

If he comes in to practice with a fat suit on, then sure, ... it's on; but until then I'm going to presume no matter his goals - he's best served by getting healthy, staying healthy, and playing well.

Of course he's best served by doing that, but what if getting 100% healthy isn't in the cards? What if rest alone won't alleviate further risk at this point in his career? I'd really like to hear something, from Kevin himself, along the lines of *I went to see a specialist to get a second opinion and he agrees with the prescribed course of treatment. The strain will heal on its own with rest and it shouldn't be much longer.*

What I don't want to hear a month from now is that Kevin Love is expected to have another surgery and will miss the remainder of season because he waited until two-thirds of the season had passed to determine what was taking so long.

We may wish it was otherwise, but health information is private; and even if it wasn't we're not exactly qualified to be questioning Kevin's medical condition or the regimen they're following to try to get him back on the floor.

There are no guarantees, only best practices. If it turns out he needed surgery he could have had months ago and would had recovered already? Sure, that'd suck; but even outside of a pandemic it's understandable why anyone would want to try to avoid surgery until it was clear there was no other choice.

[jbk1234]

lol, I think the Cavs give us enough drama without worrying about whether there's bonus drama brewing under the surface.

If he comes in to practice with a fat suit on, then sure, ... it's on; but until then I'm going to presume no matter his goals - he's best served by getting healthy, staying healthy, and playing well.

Of course he's best served by doing that, but what if getting 100% healthy isn't in the cards? What if rest alone won't alleviate further risk at this point in his career? I'd really like to hear something, from Kevin himself, along the lines of *I went to see a specialist to get a second opinion and he agrees with the prescribed course of treatment. The strain will heal on its own with rest and it shouldn't be much longer.*

What I don't want to hear a month from now is that Kevin Love is expected to have another surgery and will miss the remainder of season because he waited until two-thirds of the season had passed to determine what was taking so long.

We may wish it was otherwise, but health information is private; and even if it wasn't we're not exactly qualified to be questioning Kevin's medical condition or the regimen they're following to try to get him back on the floor.

There are no guarantees, only best practices. If it turns out he needed surgery he could have had months ago and would had recovered already? Sure, that'd suck; but even outside of a pandemic it's understandable why anyone would want to try to avoid surgery until it was clear there was no other choice.

Saying health information is private isn't responsive to me saying I'd wish Love would be more forthcoming about what's going on. He can choose to make it non-private. The bottom line is Love played two games of NBA basketball over the calendar year and was paid $30M dollars. He missed an entire season of basketball immediately after signing that extension, and again, was paid $30M. Since that extension, this is the second, out of three, trade deadlines that has come and gone where he's been untradeable and unplayable due to injury. He's owed $60M after this season over the course of two years. These are the exact type of circumstances where saying a player's health is a private matter falls short.

Not for nothing, but this is why I don't like handing out big extensions, would never offer them earlier than necessary, and never at all to a player with serious health issues. The last two large extensions we gave out were to players with serious injury histories and they both backfired spectacularly. The last four big contracts we gave out were to TT, JR, Love, and AV. The only one we were able to trade was AV and that was after attaching a first round pick to him. We managed to turn all four guys into players no one was interested in.

[JonFromVA]

The trade deadline hasn't come and gone, quite yet ...

In other news, according to the site BBall Index, Darius Garland leads the league in "Passing Creation Quality", albeit on medium volume:

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

[JonFromVA]

Another bit of trivia ... looks like Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Allen has ascended to our lineup with the most minutes together (92.3) and they've also been our most effective lineup with more than 22 minutes.

So, there's a few potential take-aways, but the one that's perhaps most noteworthy is what a terrible job we've done fielding a consistent starting 5 this season such that after just a handful of games, the Wade lineup shoots to the top.

[jbk1234]

Another bit of trivia ... looks like Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Allen has ascended to our lineup with the most minutes together (92.3) and they've also been our most effective lineup with more than 22 minutes.

So, there's a few potential take-aways, but the one that's perhaps most noteworthy is what a terrible job we've done fielding a consistent starting 5 this season such that after just a handful of games, the Wade lineup shoots to the top.

Pretty small sample size against pretty weak competition.

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[JonFromVA]

Another bit of trivia ... looks like Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Allen has ascended to our lineup with the most minutes together (92.3) and they've also been our most effective lineup with more than 22 minutes.

So, there's a few potential take-aways, but the one that's perhaps most noteworthy is what a terrible job we've done fielding a consistent starting 5 this season such that after just a handful of games, the Wade lineup shoots to the top.

Pretty small sample size against pretty weak competition.

The fact what you consider a "small sample size" is currently our most played 5-man unit is important. It means everything else that went on (good or bad) before this stretch was even less relevent.

As for the level of competition, it was nothing like the west coast gauntlet; but compared to the level of our team there were no "gimmies" and the win over the 76'ers was one of our most impressive wins of the season.

[jbk1234]

Another bit of trivia ... looks like Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Allen has ascended to our lineup with the most minutes together (92.3) and they've also been our most effective lineup with more than 22 minutes.

So, there's a few potential take-aways, but the one that's perhaps most noteworthy is what a terrible job we've done fielding a consistent starting 5 this season such that after just a handful of games, the Wade lineup shoots to the top.

Pretty small sample size against pretty weak competition.

The fact what you consider a "small sample size" is currently our most played 5-man unit is important. It means everything else that went on (good or bad) before this stretch was even less relevent.

As for the level of competition, it was nothing like the west coast gauntlet; but compared to the level of our team there were no "gimmies" and the win over the 76'ers was one of our most impressive wins of the season.

Atlanta without Collins is a bad a team. The Rockets without Wood are a bad team. We actually lost to the Pacers who have been in a bit of tailspin since trading Dipo for Levert who immediately had to have surgery. Yes the win against the Sixers, who were without T. Harris, was impressive but the game went to overtime.

We're not good enough offensively to compete with the better teams in the NBA. Now maybe some of that changes if Wade, Windler, and Okoro start hitting 3s at a better rate, if Garland stops taking threes from 10 feet behind the line where he's shot putting the ball, or if Sexton stop protecting his percentage from 3, but I think we're a team where a player who is a No. 2 option on a good team is playing the role of a No. 1 option.

[Harper4Ferry?]

I'm excited about seeing Love(lol I know) or Nance in place of Wade. And hopefully we can get someone to run a second unit and a new backup Center. I'd assume McGee will get traded. I wouldn't mind a run at the play in game or if not, hopefully we just load management our way to a good lottery pick. But I'd like to see us get "our guys" completely together for like 10 straight healthy games at some point this year.

[Stillwater]

I'm excited about seeing Love(lol I know) or Nance in place of Wade. And hopefully we can get someone to run a second unit and a new backup Center. I'd assume McGee will get traded. I wouldn't mind a run at the play in game or if not, hopefully we just load management our way to a good lottery pick. But I'd like to see us get "our guys" completely together for like 10 straight healthy games at some point this year.

call me the grinch but I dont see much point in getting excited about this roster at all as is.
they will have their moments but they should be doing everything humanly possible to get Cade or Kuminga on this roster this summer.
Kuminga is a very underrated playmaker in his own right despite not having the shooters touch cade has from anywhere but combined with that athleticism and "Kawhi like" ceiling Kuminga might be the best player in this draft.
I think some of these teams took the pedal off going into the break. Maybe we can win a few more than in the first half even if they dont do anything with the roster other than buyout the bigs and call up Bro Thomas esp if Windler and Wade get more run...but at the end of the day KLove should be moved into a back up role call it minutes restriction whatever at this point or just send him away