"We Tried So Hard, and (Haven't) Got so Far, But in the End, It Doesn't Even Matter" Trade Thread

[Feed Your Head]

The Knicks board is going to start having a podcast after each game, at first I thought it would be a cool idea for this board. But it would probably be something like this

Honestly I'm in, I already have one if anyone wants to do it I'll be down

I have a feeling you are going to be taken up on this. It’s a cool idea, and I think would develop a real following.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

The Knicks board is going to start having a podcast after each game, at first I thought it would be a cool idea for this board. But it would probably be something like this

Are any of you on Clubhouse or Discord? We should do post game chats.

[klemen4]

Agree, Dallas barely moved him with 1 year left on his contract (he had player option) at 2019 trade deadline.

That's why max I would offer is G.Williams and 2021 first....but probably Danny will go as high as 2021 first plus Thompson to stay under tax.

[SMTBSI]

I guess it’s about mentality then- because while sure we could be patient and in 2 years be laughing at all of these posts and be reaping the benefits of that patience, I guess it’s hard to preach patience on what If when we’ve seen other teams do the opposite and kind of force momentum and reap benefits.

Again- all different situations and that stuff matters but we preached patience with the heat, then the warriors, then bron leaving the east. Now it’s the nets. Whose next? It’s also hard to preach patient like I mentioned earlier when the real pressure due to contracts has just begun with Tatum and brown (there’s a clock ticking so to speak)

On top of that we’ve sat out trades (for different reasons and some correct reasons) to see other teams flourish. Sat out kawhi- raptors get a ring, sat out AD lakers get a ring, sat out harden nets position themselves for a ring and stand in our way. So while you are 100% correct about selling patience.......it’s hard to buy it as a Celtics fan

Mentality? Maybe. But I often disagree with how mentality is portrayed. I've preached patience often over the last few years, and have often gotten something in return about how you can't keep operating in fear, and at some point need to just go for it.

I'm not operating in fear. I want multiple titles. I want a dynasty. I want to do whatever it takes to get one. And if that means staring into the void and not blinking for a couple more seasons, I will absolutely do it. To me, the "alpha" thing to do is the thing that works.

In particular, I'm not as worried about what these other teams are doing as some. I don't look it as there was one super team, then another, then another. I look at it as, how best do we build our own? Cause if we build a crappy one now, none of it's going to matter. We need to peak as high as possible.

You articulate yourself very good and make really good points. I guess we at best can agree to disagree- I think in a league where star players and relationships matter you absolutely have to look at what other teams are doing and how your players will react to not making moves or making the wrong ones or “being surpassed in their careers”.

We all thought we had a dynasty forming with kyrie Hayward horford and the young guys- now it’s gonna be well we need patience because the jays winning time is actually 2 years from now while a lot of people pound their chest about how much “winning” the jays have done already. At some point you actually have to try to maximize your winning in the moment.

Thing is, we really don't disagree on that much. Or at least not on what you might be thinking we do.

Relationships absolutely matter. The happiness of your stars absolutely matter. Tatum getting angry and trying to shoot his way out of town is one of the risks of the going-for-it-later path that needs to be considered. But, just like before, you also just can't assume the worst is always going to happen. Beal's been loyaler to Washington than he has any business being. Dame is Dame. Even Pierce hung on with a bad team for a long time before starting to get disgruntled. Not everyone is a Durant or a Harden.

This, like with everything else, you have to handle based on the information you have, and your best guess at the risks. Our GM has access to more of the behind-the-scenes stuff than we do, and it's part of what he has to weigh. It seems like he already made a choice between Kyrie and the Jays. I assume his read on them as men played at least some part in it, though I don't know that. If he gets reason to believe Tatum's going to start creating drama, he'll have to weigh that. But, if you just always assume the worst - Tatum will cause problems at the earliest opportunity - we can't possibly be the next super team in two years - it's going to force you to prune paths you didn't need to prune.

All I'm really arguing is that you've got to weigh everything, and try to pick the best possible path, even if that's a path that might be unpleasant. If someone wants to argue the best possible path is pushing the chips in and going for it now, after weighing everything, including their sense of Tatum's loyalty, then I'm not going to clown them for that take. I may disagree, but it's totally reasonable and we can have a good argument over it.

If someone wants to argue that the best possible path is being patient and keeping our powder dry for Tatum's prime, that's totally defensible too. And if they make that take and get lit up for it, as CeltsfaninDC did a few pages ago (and often happens on this forum), I'm gonna say a few words in their defense.

[SMTBSI]

Anyway, after having said all of that:

I personally do not think we're close enough to push "all-in" right now successfully. I think if we try, we overwhelmingly likely come up short, then hamstring ourselves in Tatum's prime.

I think there are some angles to be played that have higher ceilings. One of them is gearing up for max cap space in '23-'24. Another is continuing to churn pieces until you get the right combination of young players and salary ballast to trade for a third star, even if that requires a step back into the lotto.

I fully recognize the possible costs of being perceived by your players as "wasting" years of their careers. Knowing almost absolutely nothing about Tatum or Brown as human beings, I can't weigh that risk very well. What I do know is that it is at least partially balanced by the risk of taking our shot now and missing, then being unable to credibly contend during their primes. If they're the type to be pissed off now, they'd be even more pissed off then.

I also don't specifically want us to do nothing this deadline. I don't want to overpay (by more than a tiny bit, anyway), but there are probably some moves to be made that are defensible value, and get us some more wins this year, without harming our flexibility too much moving forward.

[MaxwellSmart]

Celtics went 1/11 on non-open threes vs. BKN (10 taken by our top 4 players, NOT our role players). Why even handicap yourself by taking tough shots? Add in our love affair with midrange shots and penchant to walk up the ball, it's just not a blueprint for an efficient offense.

I'll never understand this Walk the ball up garbage---Playing right into the hands of the other team's defense....Tommy be rolling in his grave thinking about this.

[GoCeltics123]

The Knicks board is going to start having a podcast after each game, at first I thought it would be a cool idea for this board. But it would probably be something like this

Honestly I'm in, I already have one if anyone wants to do it I'll be down

I have a feeling you are going to be taken up on this. It’s a cool idea, and I think would develop a real following.

Well, if you guys would listen to it, I'll be in!

I currently do it with a Knicks fan and Nets fan, who have rightfully clowned our team this season lol, though the Nets fan one surprisingly less

[Bleeding Green]

Man I just don't know how you can be pissed off if you're Brown or Tatum. How many highly drafted players in the last 30 years have had more success at this point? Jordan didn't get to his first Finals until 27. LeBron was 22 when he got swept in the Finals, then 27 when he finally won one. Wade was 24 and a definite outlier. Curry/Dray/Klay trio of course were all 24-26. So that's still 2+ years away for Brown/Tatum. Durant didn't leave OKC until he was 28. Harden 31 before he got tired. Brown and Tatum are closer to their college freshman seasons than to forcing their way out of Boston.

I don't want to make any big trades unless they improve the top-end talent of this roster. Getting Barnes so he can take all the Semi/Green minutes is good, and improves the team for sure, but doesn't really move the needle enough for me; especially if it costs someone like Langford who has a very high ceiling in my view.

[CeltsfaninDC]

Man I just don't know how you can be pissed off if you're Brown or Tatum. How many highly drafted players in the last 30 years have had more success at this point? Jordan didn't get to his first Finals until 27. LeBron was 22 when he got swept in the Finals, then 27 when he finally won one. Wade was 24 and a definite outlier. Curry/Dray/Klay trio of course were all 24-26. So that's still 2+ years away for Brown/Tatum. Durant didn't leave OKC until he was 28. Harden 31 before he got tired. Brown and Tatum are closer to their college freshman seasons than to forcing their way out of Boston.

I don't want to make any big trades unless they improve the top-end talent of this roster. Getting Barnes so he can take all the Semi/Green minutes is good, and improves the team for sure, but doesn't really move the needle enough for me; especially if it costs someone like Langford who has a very high ceiling in my view.

I've made this exact point here over and over. Jordan and team grew while the Bad Boys Piston teams were beating everyone up. Those Bulls teams needed to play them to grow up just like our guys do now. Even JORDAN needed a few years to grow into being a champ. They also needed a coach that could take them all the way. I'm not sure if Brad is the guy, but there was a time when we thought Doc should be fired until we got KG and Ray. Lets not discount that move as well.

I'd also like to point out for the record that Tatum is coming off having COVID and probably isn't really 100% and wont be until at least next year. Ask him, he'll tell you.

[SMTBSI]

Man I just don't know how you can be pissed off if you're Brown or Tatum. How many highly drafted players in the last 30 years have had more success at this point? Jordan didn't get to his first Finals until 27. LeBron was 22 when he got swept in the Finals, then 27 when he finally won one. Wade was 24 and a definite outlier. Curry/Dray/Klay trio of course were all 24-26. So that's still 2+ years away for Brown/Tatum. Durant didn't leave OKC until he was 28. Harden 31 before he got tired. Brown and Tatum are closer to their college freshman seasons than to forcing their way out of Boston.

I don't want to make any big trades unless they improve the top-end talent of this roster. Getting Barnes so he can take all the Semi/Green minutes is good, and improves the team for sure, but doesn't really move the needle enough for me; especially if it costs someone like Langford who has a very high ceiling in my view.

You said what I meant, in a tiny fraction of the words.

[Bleeding Green]

Man I just don't know how you can be pissed off if you're Brown or Tatum. How many highly drafted players in the last 30 years have had more success at this point? Jordan didn't get to his first Finals until 27. LeBron was 22 when he got swept in the Finals, then 27 when he finally won one. Wade was 24 and a definite outlier. Curry/Dray/Klay trio of course were all 24-26. So that's still 2+ years away for Brown/Tatum. Durant didn't leave OKC until he was 28. Harden 31 before he got tired. Brown and Tatum are closer to their college freshman seasons than to forcing their way out of Boston.

I don't want to make any big trades unless they improve the top-end talent of this roster. Getting Barnes so he can take all the Semi/Green minutes is good, and improves the team for sure, but doesn't really move the needle enough for me; especially if it costs someone like Langford who has a very high ceiling in my view.

You said what I meant, in a tiny fraction of the words.

I just try to hop on your coattails when you make a good point. I think that's two times now for you.

[SMTBSI]

Man I just don't know how you can be pissed off if you're Brown or Tatum. How many highly drafted players in the last 30 years have had more success at this point? Jordan didn't get to his first Finals until 27. LeBron was 22 when he got swept in the Finals, then 27 when he finally won one. Wade was 24 and a definite outlier. Curry/Dray/Klay trio of course were all 24-26. So that's still 2+ years away for Brown/Tatum. Durant didn't leave OKC until he was 28. Harden 31 before he got tired. Brown and Tatum are closer to their college freshman seasons than to forcing their way out of Boston.

I don't want to make any big trades unless they improve the top-end talent of this roster. Getting Barnes so he can take all the Semi/Green minutes is good, and improves the team for sure, but doesn't really move the needle enough for me; especially if it costs someone like Langford who has a very high ceiling in my view.

You said what I meant, in a tiny fraction of the words.

I just try to hop on your coattails when you make a good point. I think that's two times now for you.

I really just need to somehow become important enough to have an editor. It takes me longer to write the short posts than the long ones. The long ones are when I just write the thoughts as they come out of my head. The short ones are when I look back and say, "That's way too long, no one wants to read that crap", and try to edit it down.

[fallguy]

The Knicks board is going to start having a podcast after each game, at first I thought it would be a cool idea for this board. But it would probably be something like this

Are any of you on Clubhouse or Discord? We should do post game chats.

Fire Ainge: The Real GM Celtics Podcast

[Bleeding Green]

You said what I meant, in a tiny fraction of the words.

I just try to hop on your coattails when you make a good point. I think that's two times now for you.

I really just need to somehow become important enough to have an editor. It takes me longer to write the short posts than the long ones. The long ones are when I just write the thoughts as they come out of my head. The short ones are when I look back and say, "That's way too long, no one wants to read that crap", and try to edit it down.

Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?

[Fencer reregistered]

You said what I meant, in a tiny fraction of the words.

I just try to hop on your coattails when you make a good point. I think that's two times now for you.

I really just need to somehow become important enough to have an editor. It takes me longer to write the short posts than the long ones. The long ones are when I just write the thoughts as they come out of my head. The short ones are when I look back and say, "That's way too long, no one wants to read that crap", and try to edit it down.

It helps. I've had some great editors. But after a while you don't need one. Indeed, one of my best editors was my wife, and we've flipped around over the decades to the point that I usually edit for her but not vice versa. Indeed, I've been an editor for some quite successful works of erotic romance, one of which was a NYT best-seller and other of which was nominated for a RITA award.

[1st banana]

Good lord these trade threads move fast can’t keep up. By the time I wake up from sleeping in I’m 10 pages back lol. Thread title should’ve been “fierce vs the world” last one got intense lol.

I feel like I’m in the same “want a couple smallish trades as opposed to a big overpay desperation trade” boat I don’t wanna ruin the chance of adding a top tier piece to the team.

Harrison “the savior” Barnes would be the biggest trade I could get behind as long as it’s nothing more than a 1st and grant he’s just not worth dumping Langsmith and a pick.

I’d really rather we do like a 2nd for danuel house or even two 2nds and like Carson for house n mclemore then cut Teague or send him to Houston also to be their tank commander.

Just add a couple mild bench pieces to push down the **** we have logging so many minutes and see what happens. Maybe we find our juice go on a run or not but I feel like Danny should be treating every deadline like we in the MLB, were either sellers or buyers but you gotta do something ****.

[Curmudgeon]

The Celtics have exactly one second before 2025, and it isn't even theirs. No deal with any positive consequence will be possible without including at least one first and one of Langford, Pritchard or the Timelord-- unless you are moving Tatum, Brown or Smart.
Everyone else has negative trade value, even Theis, because he would be a rental.

[CeltsfaninDC]

The Celtics have exactly one second before 2025, and it isn't even theirs. No deal with any positive consequence will be possible without including at least one first and one of Langford, Pritchard or the Timelord-- unless you are moving Tatum, Brown or Smart.
Everyone else has negative trade value, even Theis, because he would be a rental.

and I've pointed this out as well.
I asked someone who kept saying that we needed to make a big trade to say specifically WHO on the team they would trade to get that next big piece - crickets. Everyone wants DA to make a big trade, but no one is recognizing that we just don't have much to give up that people would want aside from guys none of us want to move.

[1st banana]

The Celtics have exactly one second before 2025, and it isn't even theirs. No deal with any positive consequence will be possible without including at least one first and one of Langford, Pritchard or the Timelord-- unless you are moving Tatum, Brown or Smart.
Everyone else has negative trade value, even Theis, because he would be a rental.

Jesus do we really have only one 2nd until ‘25? I thought we had ‘21 and 22’ still damn well it’s gonna have to be Carson acting as a defacto second lol.

[flintsky21]

I'm on board with bringing in Barnes because not only will he take Semi/Javonte/Grant's minutes, but he'll also ease some load off the Jays both on offense and defense (both of whom we've been running into the ground). And while we're still not beating the Nets with Barnes, it becomes debatable if one of their stars go down (and Durant and Irving have had injury issues the last couple years). Or a surprise team might match better with them and take them out for us (e.g. last year's Heat) and suddenly it's an open field. It's too luck-based I know but that's how the Raptors eked one out in '19.