Luke Kennard 4 Years $64 Ms

[og15]

IOW Kennard's not a problem if you bench him. Done.

FTR, since it was a 3-way, we traded Shamet for the 19th pick, which turned into Saddiq Bey, so we could have had either player. Now I'm not a big one for draft shoulda-wouldas but I do have an objection to trading for RFAs or soon-to-be RFAs. You gotta PAY. The whole point of cheap labor via the draft evaporates. I think there were about 3 years out of DeAndre's 10 here that we got our money's worth.

As for Kennard's skills, we're already #1 in catch-and-shoot, so the one thing he does well is the one thing we don't need. Maybe next year. But I think he needs to do more to get open like JJ did. You can't get volume production just plucking the low-hanging fruit.

Clemanza informed me on the GB previously that we might actually not had any chance at Bey.

I then looked into it, and he was right, the Clippers never had an opportunity to get Bey, the way the trade was worked out, it wasn’t the Clippers trading for the 19th pick. It was the Pistons who traded Kennard for the 19th pick, and the Clippers got involved and got Kennard and moved Shamet and then all the additional pieces were added around. I had previously thought it was the Clippers who traded Shamet for 19th and then moved it for Kennard, but it was actually the opposite way around.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/2020/11/19/nba-draft-2020-detroit-pistons-select-villanova-forward-saddiq-bey-with-19th-pick/


It was the Clips who had the pick according to this.

You might be correct, the trade was reported in conflicting ways depending on the source.

[og15]

Clemanza informed me on the GB previously that we might actually not had any chance at Bey.

I then looked into it, and he was right, the Clippers never had an opportunity to get Bey, the way the trade was worked out, it wasn’t the Clippers trading for the 19th pick. It was the Pistons who traded Kennard for the 19th pick, and the Clippers got involved and got Kennard and moved Shamet and then all the additional pieces were added around. I had previously thought it was the Clippers who traded Shamet for 19th and then moved it for Kennard, but it was actually the opposite way around.

Even if accurate, still on the FO's head. You call up the Nets and offer Shamet for the 19th pick. Done. But it's academic now anyway. We are all still wondering what they saw in Luke. It's his low energy and apparent lack of basketball IQ that bothers me most, and why Mann cracked the rotation ahead of him.

______________

ADD--I know everybody loves Mann and so do I, but the fact is that his plus/minus is in the negative despite being on one of the top plus/minus teams in the league. I agree with giving him the minutes but facts are facts and why I get kinda irked when good soldier Lou gets blamed for the problems on the second unit. Fortunately Ty does not agree. Lou is a team player.

Top 5 then

6 Lou plus+3.2
Reggie plus+1.8
Zu plus+0.8
Senior plus+0.4
Kennard minus-0.7
Mann minus-1.4


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746

Yea, whether or not it was possible to get the pick, trading a previous 12th pick that has proven NBA caliber skills for the 19th pick is not bad trade in the moment, hindsight is always what it is.

Kennard's IQ is fine, doesn't try to do more than he's capable of, doesn't make dumb plays, etc

+/- is a noisy stat of course. I'll never look at simple +/- without analyzing lineups and who a player is playing with. Mann who plays 15 mpg for example has played the vast majority of his minutes with Zubac, Williams, Morris and Jackson.

Williams who plays 23 mpg plays 40% of his minutes with Leonard or George, so how does that affect things? +/- is not an individual stat, it's a team stat, the work is seeing patterns of course and trying to determine what they mean.

Having a negative +/- doesn't mean the player is a negative impact player, it could, but it depends highly on the lineups.

For example, the three man combo of Williams, Morris, Zubac is -0.9 in 330 minutes. Since these guys are the staples on the bench, it's also telling us that on the season as a whole the bench has been negative. This also means that any 4th and 5th guy consistently with them and not in many other lineups without those three will have a negative +/-. Those three might not have a negative +/- though since they get decent minutes with the stars for example.

[esqtvd]

Clemanza informed me on the GB previously that we might actually not had any chance at Bey.

I then looked into it, and he was right, the Clippers never had an opportunity to get Bey, the way the trade was worked out, it wasn’t the Clippers trading for the 19th pick. It was the Pistons who traded Kennard for the 19th pick, and the Clippers got involved and got Kennard and moved Shamet and then all the additional pieces were added around. I had previously thought it was the Clippers who traded Shamet for 19th and then moved it for Kennard, but it was actually the opposite way around.

Even if accurate, still on the FO's head. You call up the Nets and offer Shamet for the 19th pick. Done. But it's academic now anyway. We are all still wondering what they saw in Luke. It's his low energy and apparent lack of basketball IQ that bothers me most, and why Mann cracked the rotation ahead of him.

______________

ADD--I know everybody loves Mann and so do I, but the fact is that his plus/minus is in the negative despite being on one of the top plus/minus teams in the league. I agree with giving him the minutes but facts are facts and why I get kinda irked when good soldier Lou gets blamed for the problems on the second unit. Fortunately Ty does not agree. Lou is a team player.

Top 5 then

6 Lou plus+3.2
Reggie plus+1.8
Zu plus+0.8
Senior plus+0.4
Kennard minus-0.7
Mann minus-1.4


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746

Yea, whether or not it was possible to get the pick, trading a previous 12th pick that has proven NBA caliber skills for the 19th pick is not bad trade in the moment, hindsight is always what it is.

Kennard's IQ is fine, doesn't try to do more than he's capable of, doesn't make dumb plays, etc

+/- is a noisy stat of course. I'll never look at simple +/- without analyzing lineups and who a player is playing with. Mann who plays 15 mpg for example has played the vast majority of his minutes with Zubac, Williams, Morris and Jackson.

Williams who plays 23 mpg plays 40% of his minutes with Leonard or George, so how does that affect things? +/- is not an individual stat, it's a team stat, the work is seeing patterns of course and trying to determine what they mean.

Having a negative +/- doesn't mean the player is a negative impact player, it could, but it depends highly on the lineups.

For example, the three man combo of Williams, Morris, Zubac is -0.9 in 330 minutes. Since these guys are the staples on the bench, it's also telling us that on the season as a whole the bench has been negative. This also means that any 4th and 5th guy consistently with them and not in many other lineups without those three will have a negative +/-. Those three might not have a negative +/- though since they get decent minutes with the stars for example.

All true. But Ty seems very aware of the stat because he mentions it often, and apportions PT accordingly--often his 4th quarter decisions are supported by the running plus/minus stats. Yes, it is noisy plus or minus 5 points but when one guy's minus-19 and the next-worst is minus-7, Player A is probably having a crap game. Plus/minus is an excellent backstop to "eye tests" which can be very unreliable. Frankly, the numbers say Mann is not playing as well as eye tests indicate. When the whole unit is in the red, SOMEBODY's responsible.

BTW, I've been using the "Last 10 games" function lately because Ty is settling into a steady set of combinations and it tells us more about the state of the rotation. I expect Lou can't keep his recent excellent play up much longer [IMO he's playing far too many minutes, as is Kawhi] but at least his critics will have something legitimate to squawk about when he comes back to earth. At the moment there are 3 or 4 other players who should be getting the flak right now.

As for Kennard, high IQ players are a beat ahead of the action and I think he's consistently a beat behind. Perhaps there is another explanation but it doesn't look like we'll get to see until next season. Some of his plus/minus isn't too bad playing with 3 or 4 starters, but Reggie's are even better, so Ty's been giving him those spot minutes instead.

[donemilio21]

Kennard in January:
16 games, 22.6 Minutes, 8.7 Points, 1.9 Assists, 3.0 Rebounds, 49.5 FG%

Kennard in February:
11 games, 16.3 Minutes, 5.5 Points, 1.2 Assists, 2.3 Rebounds, 42.3 FG%

His trade value must be incredibly low right now, he is on his way to become a garbage time player. He played 6 minutes and then 2 minutes against Memphis, didn't enter game against Bucks, and got only 5 minutes against Celtics last night.

[Captain Ballmer]

Something broken in our team. You can not be this worse in a couple months, in age 25. We can't finish inside, get calls, play efficient pick&rolls. Bread and Butter of simple basketball are far away from the team right now. I don't even blame Kennard for his performance after what I saw the last couple of weeks.

[madmaxmedia]

Kennard in January:
16 games, 22.6 Minutes, 8.7 Points, 1.9 Assists, 3.0 Rebounds, 49.5 FG%

Kennard in February:
11 games, 16.3 Minutes, 5.5 Points, 1.2 Assists, 2.3 Rebounds, 42.3 FG%

His trade value must be incredibly low right now, he is on his way to become a garbage time player. He played 6 minutes and then 2 minutes against Memphis, didn't enter game against Bucks, and got only 5 minutes against Celtics last night.

I was just about to post, he seemed to get off to a promising start here. Not big time production or anything, but a good start that seemed to portend more in the future as he got acclimated and in shape after last season's injuries. Like an efficient 14/4/4 or something like that, while helping the overall offense run more smoothly.

Instead, he's dropped off a cliff. I don't think we're forcing him to play a particular way he's not used to, his overall skillset seemed to be what we needed vs. Landry. All he had to do is go in and play his game.

[TheNewEra]

Kennard in January:
16 games, 22.6 Minutes, 8.7 Points, 1.9 Assists, 3.0 Rebounds, 49.5 FG%

Kennard in February:
11 games, 16.3 Minutes, 5.5 Points, 1.2 Assists, 2.3 Rebounds, 42.3 FG%

His trade value must be incredibly low right now, he is on his way to become a garbage time player. He played 6 minutes and then 2 minutes against Memphis, didn't enter game against Bucks, and got only 5 minutes against Celtics last night.

I was just about to post, he seemed to get off to a promising start here. Not big time production or anything, but a good start that seemed to portend more in the future as he got acclimated and in shape after last season's injuries. Like an efficient 14/4/4 or something like that, while helping the overall offense run more smoothly.

Instead, he's dropped off a cliff. I don't think we're forcing him to play a particular way he's not used to, his overall skillset seemed to be what we needed vs. Landry. All he had to do is go in and play his game.

He was being groomed as a primary ball handler last year with the Pistons and came to the clippers to play off guard to Lou Williams. We really just put him into the Sham role when he needs the ball more than Sham did and even that didn’t work out. It should of been a Lou or Luke situation from the start and then they mixed in Reggie for the lockdown trio

[NickP]

I've seen Kennard play on the Pistons. Kennard had some good games for us. The FO could have waited to give him this offer but they didn't. However I'm assuming they talked about signing Kennard long term with Ty also.
I'm going to give more time to Kennard and see where it takes us.
I'm more worried about Batum regressing and not getting criticized as much as Kennard. It's time we start Morris.

[Clemenza]

I've seen Kennard play on the Pistons. Kennard had some good games for us. The FO could have waited to give him this offer but they didn't. However I'm assuming they talked about signing Kennard long term with Ty also.
I'm going to give more time to Kennard and see where it takes us.
I'm more worried about Batum regressing and not getting criticized as much as Kennard. It's time we start Morris.

He had a few subpar games last week but he's starting to hit some shots again but also keep in mind he plays much better defense and rebounds than Kennard does. I don't think Kennard can get it going playing alongside Lou Will.. and that's not a shot on Lou Will its just that their games don't mesh and they both need the ball in their hands to be effective. Front office should've thought that through before making the moves and the extension

[TheNewEra]

Kennard in the open court pushing the tempo is a sight to see. Just keep trying to make plays

[madmaxmedia]

I've seen Kennard play on the Pistons. Kennard had some good games for us. The FO could have waited to give him this offer but they didn't. However I'm assuming they talked about signing Kennard long term with Ty also.
I'm going to give more time to Kennard and see where it takes us.
I'm more worried about Batum regressing and not getting criticized as much as Kennard. It's time we start Morris.

He had a few subpar games last week but he's starting to hit some shots again but also keep in mind he plays much better defense and rebounds than Kennard does. I don't think Kennard can get it going playing alongside Lou Will.. and that's not a shot on Lou Will its just that their games don't mesh and they both need the ball in their hands to be effective. Front office should've thought that through before making the moves and the extension

You are 100% correct of course. But I think we are starved for assets and means of improvement, so like the Lob City days we have to take our chances where we can find them (that doesn't excuse the extension however, that is a different story!)

[RingColluder]

even with a decent shot he was constantly getting lost and picked on defense

morons/casuals who dont watch the game look to his "career high" FG and 3PTFG% in shooting but we all know how awful he's been

[clipperlover]

I would be calling the Wizards and trying to move Kennard for Troy Brown Jr. I think Brown would do well here and could really develop defensively. The Wiz with Westbrook and Beal's deals are limited in the moves they can make next year. Getting Kennard's contract this year and being able to use his extension next year may be an asset for them (e.g. trade fodder).

[TheNewEra]

even with a decent shot he was constantly getting lost and picked on defense

morons/casuals who dont watch the game look to his "career high" FG and 3PTFG% in shooting but we all know how awful he's been

We have multiple guards off the bench with this issue we shouldn’t trade the one with the highest potential to improve

[RingColluder]

even with a decent shot he was constantly getting lost and picked on defense

morons/casuals who dont watch the game look to his "career high" FG and 3PTFG% in shooting but we all know how awful he's been

We have multiple guards off the bench with this issue we shouldn’t trade the one with the highest potential to improve

Reggie Jackson is making minimum, no team will want to trade for Lou Williams, Kennard is the only trade piece we have.

[Clemenza]

even with a decent shot he was constantly getting lost and picked on defense

morons/casuals who dont watch the game look to his "career high" FG and 3PTFG% in shooting but we all know how awful he's been

We have multiple guards off the bench with this issue we shouldn’t trade the one with the highest potential to improve

Reggie Jackson is making minimum, no team will want to trade for Lou Williams, Kennard is the only trade piece we have.

I believe you can't trade him until his extension kicks in which is over the summer/next season

[esqtvd]

We have multiple guards off the bench with this issue we shouldn’t trade the one with the highest potential to improve

Reggie Jackson is making minimum, no team will want to trade for Lou Williams, Kennard is the only trade piece we have.

I believe you can't trade him until his extension kicks in which is over the summer/next season

I believe Luke can be traded but the $3.7M he's making this year won't bring back an impact player, and his extension looks like an albatross at the moment.


IMO, Zubac is the only one with real trade value and only middling. If Patterson agreed to a trade we could package Zu with Pat Pat and Fi for PJ Tucker, but does that really make us better?

Code: Select all

[b]Players with Trade Restrictions[/b]
Patrick Patterson from Los Angeles Clippers
Patterson is a one year bird player, which means he must agree to the deal for any trade to happen. Further, if Patterson agrees to be traded, his Bird status will be reset and he will be viewed as a non-bird free agent this summer.


[RingColluder]

Reggie Jackson is making minimum, no team will want to trade for Lou Williams, Kennard is the only trade piece we have.

I believe you can't trade him until his extension kicks in which is over the summer/next season

I believe Luke can be traded but the $3.7M he's making this year won't bring back an impact player, and his extension looks like an albatross at the moment.


IMO, Zubac is the only one with real trade value and only middling. If Patterson agreed to a trade we could package Zu with Pat Pat and Fi for PJ Tucker, but does that really make us better?

Code: Select all

[b]Players with Trade Restrictions[/b]
Patrick Patterson from Los Angeles Clippers
Patterson is a one year bird player, which means he must agree to the deal for any trade to happen. Further, if Patterson agrees to be traded, his Bird status will be reset and he will be viewed as a non-bird free agent this summer.


Not at all. I'd keep Zu over PJ Tucker.

We need a center or a PG, I can't believe how bad Luke kennard is playing.

If we had not signed him to a deal, we'd be able to trade him easier. Such an awful contract, one of the worst in Clippers history besides that Blake Griffin max deal. Awful job.

I'd be willing to trade Zu for a legit PG veteran plus pieces and risk playing Ibaka and Morris heavy minutes.

[Wammy Giveaway]

We need a center or a PG, I can't believe how bad Luke kennard is playing.

If we had not signed him to a deal, we'd be able to trade him easier. Such an awful contract, one of the worst in Clippers history besides that Blake Griffin max deal. Awful job.

I'd be willing to trade Zu for a legit PG veteran plus pieces and risk playing Ibaka and Morris heavy minutes.

I now have to wonder if the main reason why they did these deals was so that other teams wouldn't swoop in to steal their players, like a pseudo no-trade clause/shield. George's extension prevents other teams from getting him for the rest of the season. They basically are betting that the roster they created/fixed is good enough, and would rather stick with that than trade their players just because the trade deadline exists and every other team is trading - so they don't feel left out. The only reason why Leonard didn't extend his contract has more to do with empowering the franchise to prove themselves: "If you fail to get past the 2nd round, I'm gone."

Unfortunately, by doing that, they basically locked themselves out from doing any sort of additional move whatsoever. We may see the Clippers going into the playoffs with just 14 players and the 15th spot unused. If any new addition occurs, it'll be one of their 2-way players. We just need to know which 2-way player is the most likely candidate to get the 15th spot.

[TheNewEra]

even with a decent shot he was constantly getting lost and picked on defense

morons/casuals who dont watch the game look to his "career high" FG and 3PTFG% in shooting but we all know how awful he's been

We have multiple guards off the bench with this issue we shouldn’t trade the one with the highest potential to improve

Reggie Jackson is making minimum, no team will want to trade for Lou Williams, Kennard is the only trade piece we have.

Expiring contracts still have some value and anyone trading for Lou won’t care if he retires. Cap relief is the name of the game and we have 2nds for the inconvenience