Pacers Odds and Ends

[Pacers Forever]

To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it !

About drafting, I think the team should invest more in scouting in Europe

I mean, most of the recent superstars who demanded to be traded to their city of choice are American players (Harden, AD, PG, etc)

Same goes with those superstars who try to form superteams with their buddies (LeBron, KD, Kawhi)

When you think about it, for Euro players who play in the NBA, they are basically just expats working in America, and their primary human relationships in the US are probably with the people in the organization that drafted them and brought them over. They aren't surrounded by an army of childhood acquaintances or family and friends constantly telling them where they should go or what they should do

Also, they are probably a bit more ambivalent about which city to play in. Whether they have to play in California vs Utah probably doesn't make too much of a difference to them, it's all just America anyway from their point of view. It's kind of how an average American probably wouldn't care if he has to work in Belgrade vs Prague, it's all just Eastern Europe anyway

If the issue with small markets is they aren't able to retain the star players they drafted, maybe they'll have better luck with Euro players

Very good observation !

[Pacers Forever]

Of course we were content early in the season when the team was playing well together. Now it's like the league saw film and boom the Pacers struggle in every contest. Makes me wonder if Nate will mix it up or stay with the 3 point quick offense strategy. I don't like Nate's strategy of we're going to take more 3 pointers than ever. He's given the ok to fire at will and personally I think that disrupts an offense. All teams come down and fire a 3 in transition, but to run a motion offense to get a 3 point look only works for pure distance shooters like (Doug, Justin and Brogdon kind of) along with many great long range shooters like Steph, Dame, and Harden ect. Yet we have Turner, Sabonis, and bench players hoisting 3's rather than running pick and roll or sets of plays. It's not their best percentage shot and definitely doesn't look smooth or natural. Again I have heard his excuse of this Covid season doesn't allow for practice and establishing an offense. It's almost like they're just playing out this season to get back to a normal season where they can build an offense. I don't think the team plays fluidly together, and I don't like the make up of the team. I'm all in for a rebuild and like the idea of getting a top draft choice this year especially as we all know 1 NBA super star doesn't want to come to a small market team let alone 2-3.

Some agreements here, but otherwise, the whole “league watching the film” and figuring out Indy also coincides with having dealt Oladipo for an injured guy in Levert, and turning bench players into starters and not replacing them, which has led to some major issues. Sure, there are issues, but we’ve always had slumps (McMillans were usually in the weeks heading into the playoffs), and we had two major pieces missing with injuries. Health alone will repair a lot of things.

So we pair a young stud scorer from the draft with my keepers who are Sabonis, LeVert, J. Holiday, and Warren give or take. I like Warren because he can stroke it, good contract, young, and potential. I'd keep McDermott, McConnell, Stanley, Goga, and Sampson for the bench. The rest of this team please trade or release and get the best fit you can to fill out the team. Yeah I'd love to get rid of Lamb, Brogdon, and Myles in return for a true point guard, a PF/Center that can rebound, defend bigs, plus play well with Domas, and another point guard or scorer. So next year.



Starters
point guard
LeVert
Warren
Domas
Big

Bench
McConnell
Doug
J. Holiday
Goga
TBD

I know I'm a bit crazy, but I've followed this team since 1968ish and the NBA is not conducive or built to letting a small market team thrive just as in baseball. So I look at what SEA/OKC did drafting Durant #2, Westbrook #4 plus Ibaka #24, and the following year Hardin #3 to build a team that should have won a championship before splitting up. This was 2007, 2008, 2009 drafts. Pacers during same 3 drafts No pick, Bayless, Hansbrough because they don't rebuild and draft from 11th and farther back. The talent in the latest drafts is very weak by the 15th pick and back. The 2nd round picks rarely play much.

To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it !

I’m not confident that Brogdon and Turner could return multiple high draft picks like you hope they will, not will the team be bad enough to get high in the lottery to draft them. Otherwise, I think Turner IS that big that can defend PF’s, to the perimeter, etc, he’s just not the terrific rebounder you might hope for.

But also, it’s easy in hindsight to say that the Pacers should have ranked certain years to get Harden instead of a Hanbrough, or whomever, but going into the drafts, you don’t know who those guys are. Heck, teams wanted to rank to get Carter and Bagley recently. How’s that working out? Or Ayton? He’s good, but he’s not a future superstar. He’s hopefully going to peak as a Turner level impact, though more offense than defense.

And are you willing to tank for many years and churn through many picks to eventually get the right guys and hit? It’s not as easy as a one year and then good to go. If it takes 5 years, are you going to buy season tickets and get everyone you know to help buy the tickets to replace the casuals who want to see competitiveness every night that a Brogdon, Levert, Warren, Turner, Sabonis lineup would bring?

I did fail to mention the loss of Oladipo to cause bench players to be thrown into more minutes to absorb LeVert's absence. In talking about Brogdon and Turner I was thinking equal players that might fit our club better rather than picks. Of course they'd have to get salaries to work out and find another club interested in a change of scenery type of trade. I know it's not easy and it does take a sacrifice to build from the draft. So tired of them being a first round exit team repeatedly like they have been.

[Scoot McGroot]

Of course we were content early in the season when the team was playing well together. Now it's like the league saw film and boom the Pacers struggle in every contest. Makes me wonder if Nate will mix it up or stay with the 3 point quick offense strategy. I don't like Nate's strategy of we're going to take more 3 pointers than ever. He's given the ok to fire at will and personally I think that disrupts an offense. All teams come down and fire a 3 in transition, but to run a motion offense to get a 3 point look only works for pure distance shooters like (Doug, Justin and Brogdon kind of) along with many great long range shooters like Steph, Dame, and Harden ect. Yet we have Turner, Sabonis, and bench players hoisting 3's rather than running pick and roll or sets of plays. It's not their best percentage shot and definitely doesn't look smooth or natural. Again I have heard his excuse of this Covid season doesn't allow for practice and establishing an offense. It's almost like they're just playing out this season to get back to a normal season where they can build an offense. I don't think the team plays fluidly together, and I don't like the make up of the team. I'm all in for a rebuild and like the idea of getting a top draft choice this year especially as we all know 1 NBA super star doesn't want to come to a small market team let alone 2-3.

Some agreements here, but otherwise, the whole “league watching the film” and figuring out Indy also coincides with having dealt Oladipo for an injured guy in Levert, and turning bench players into starters and not replacing them, which has led to some major issues. Sure, there are issues, but we’ve always had slumps (McMillans were usually in the weeks heading into the playoffs), and we had two major pieces missing with injuries. Health alone will repair a lot of things.

So we pair a young stud scorer from the draft with my keepers who are Sabonis, LeVert, J. Holiday, and Warren give or take. I like Warren because he can stroke it, good contract, young, and potential. I'd keep McDermott, McConnell, Stanley, Goga, and Sampson for the bench. The rest of this team please trade or release and get the best fit you can to fill out the team. Yeah I'd love to get rid of Lamb, Brogdon, and Myles in return for a true point guard, a PF/Center that can rebound, defend bigs, plus play well with Domas, and another point guard or scorer. So next year.



Starters
point guard
LeVert
Warren
Domas
Big

Bench
McConnell
Doug
J. Holiday
Goga
TBD

I know I'm a bit crazy, but I've followed this team since 1968ish and the NBA is not conducive or built to letting a small market team thrive just as in baseball. So I look at what SEA/OKC did drafting Durant #2, Westbrook #4 plus Ibaka #24, and the following year Hardin #3 to build a team that should have won a championship before splitting up. This was 2007, 2008, 2009 drafts. Pacers during same 3 drafts No pick, Bayless, Hansbrough because they don't rebuild and draft from 11th and farther back. The talent in the latest drafts is very weak by the 15th pick and back. The 2nd round picks rarely play much.

To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it !

I’m not confident that Brogdon and Turner could return multiple high draft picks like you hope they will, not will the team be bad enough to get high in the lottery to draft them. Otherwise, I think Turner IS that big that can defend PF’s, to the perimeter, etc, he’s just not the terrific rebounder you might hope for.

But also, it’s easy in hindsight to say that the Pacers should have ranked certain years to get Harden instead of a Hanbrough, or whomever, but going into the drafts, you don’t know who those guys are. Heck, teams wanted to rank to get Carter and Bagley recently. How’s that working out? Or Ayton? He’s good, but he’s not a future superstar. He’s hopefully going to peak as a Turner level impact, though more offense than defense.

And are you willing to tank for many years and churn through many picks to eventually get the right guys and hit? It’s not as easy as a one year and then good to go. If it takes 5 years, are you going to buy season tickets and get everyone you know to help buy the tickets to replace the casuals who want to see competitiveness every night that a Brogdon, Levert, Warren, Turner, Sabonis lineup would bring?

I did fail to mention the loss of Oladipo to cause bench players to be thrown into more minutes to absorb LeVert's absence. In talking about Brogdon and Turner I was thinking equal players that might fit our club better rather than picks. Of course they'd have to get salaries to work out and find another club interested in a change of scenery type of trade. I know it's not easy and it does take a sacrifice to build from the draft. So tired of them being a first round exit team repeatedly like they have been.

No worries. No explanation needed. This long string of first round outs has us all on the edge!

[Wizop]

This long string of first round outs has us all on the edge!

The other side of that coin is that it is also a long series of first round ins. As a long time ticket holder, I prefer that to boom and bust. I understand some call it treadmilling.

Sent from my phone.

[Topofthekey]

This long string of first round outs has us all on the edge!

The other side of that coin is that it is also a long series of first round ins. As a long time ticket holder, I prefer that to boom and bust. I understand some call it treadmilling.

Sent from my phone.

Ideally we'd want the best of both worlds, don't we

We want the team to still at least make it to the first round in the "rebuilding years", and then after a few years of that be ready to make a few consecutive deep playoff runs


And I think remarkably, that's more or less what Pacers have been doing as an organization

The previous seasons under old Nate can be seen as the "rebuilding years", where the team went through a lot of changes and were looking to add talent and rebuild their roster (though they really should have tried developing young talent a little bit more)

Now we just need new Nate to be able to put everything together and prime the team to try and contend, if not for the championship then at least to win their conference

It's do-able, if they are committed to it

KP needs to stop going wide and go tall instead, when it comes to roster building. LeVert's return has already pushed Lamb out from the rotation it seems, judging by the 10-man lineup used against the Suns. Lamb isn't really what we'd call a big difference maker, but I think Pacers may have the best 11th man in the entire league right now

It's not easy to trade for stars or even starters, but KP should try to turn Doug/Lamb/McConnell into just one or two better or more useful bench player. Like a Montrezl Harrell or Kyle Kuzma or Ivica Zubac or Jalen Brunson

If that's still tough to do, then try to turn them into some future draft capital. Individually none of Doug or Lamb or McConnell would fetch a FRP, but combined in a package and traded to a contender for one useless salary filler, that may be worthy of a team giving up a FRP for

For example, would Mavericks give up a future FRP to trade James Johnson for Doug and Lamb? Would Nuggets trade a FRP to turn Gary Harris into Doug + Lamb + McConnell? Would Blazers trade Rodney Hood + FRP for Doug + McConnell?

As for new Nate, he needs to keep developing Aaron and Goga and Sumner

[Wizop]

I think we could move Doug or Lamb if Warren were back. Doug is easier to move because his contract expires.

Harrell is more of an inside player than what I want and Kuzma is too expensive. If Tucker or Aldridge are bought out, I'd be interested.

Sent from my phone.

[Topofthekey]

I don't mind moving McConnell as well

He's super entertaining to watch, but his defensive lapses are starting to annoy me

I'd rather have Aaron as the primary ball handler in the second unit anyway

[Wizop]

I don't mind moving McConnell as well

He's super entertaining to watch, but his defensive lapses are starting to annoy me

I'd rather have Aaron as the primary ball handler in the second unit anyway

And I'd rather trade Aaron who is not a point guard. I wouldn't though because I want to keep Justin happy.

McConnell leads the league in steals. That's defense. His minutes could be reduced though and probably will as Levert plays more. My hope would have Sumner play when McConnell has a bad matchup

Sent from my phone.

[Topofthekey]

I guess that's just something we don't see eye to eye, at least right now

I love watching McConnell, but I prefer if the team develops Aaron as the ball handler in the second unit

[Wizop]

I love watching McConnell, but I prefer if the team develops Aaron as the ball handler in the second unit

I would like that too. I'm just less optimistic than you are regarding his chances of becoming more of a 1 than a 2. also, I'm a big Sumner fan.

[Pacers Forever]

I guess that's just something we don't see eye to eye, at least right now

I love watching McConnell, but I prefer if the team develops Aaron as the ball handler in the second unit

I would be willing to trading both. Although I like watching McConnell hustle I do see him making too many turnovers recently in his coverage and his passing/ball handling kinda off setting his defensive successes. I would rather develop Sumner than Holiday.

[Topofthekey]

I guess that's just something we don't see eye to eye, at least right now

I love watching McConnell, but I prefer if the team develops Aaron as the ball handler in the second unit

I would be willing to trading both. Although I like watching McConnell hustle I do see him making too many turnovers recently in his coverage and his passing/ball handling kinda off setting his defensive successes. I would rather develop Sumner than Holiday.

Why not both

Trade all three of Doug and Lamb and McConnell for a good back PF and a pick

We'll end up with a bench consisting of

Goga
PF
Justin
Sumner
Aaron

I like that bench. Sumner is pretty good off ball, and Aaron functions better if he gets to handle the ball, I feel. And we get a pick out of it as well, optimistically

[Scoot McGroot]

I guess that's just something we don't see eye to eye, at least right now

I love watching McConnell, but I prefer if the team develops Aaron as the ball handler in the second unit

I would be willing to trading both. Although I like watching McConnell hustle I do see him making too many turnovers recently in his coverage and his passing/ball handling kinda off setting his defensive successes. I would rather develop Sumner than Holiday.

Why not both

Trade all three of Doug and Lamb and McConnell for a good back PF and a pick

We'll end up with a bench consisting of

Goga
PF
Justin
Sumner
Aaron

I like that bench. Sumner is pretty good off ball, and Aaron functions better if he gets to handle the ball, I feel. And we get a pick out of it as well, optimistically

I think you'd have to have another big time stabilizing vet at the PF spot there in order to keep that lineup from constantly collapsing. Like a Thad Young.

[Pacers Forever]

I would be willing to trading both. Although I like watching McConnell hustle I do see him making too many turnovers recently in his coverage and his passing/ball handling kinda off setting his defensive successes. I would rather develop Sumner than Holiday.

Why not both

Trade all three of Doug and Lamb and McConnell for a good back PF and a pick

We'll end up with a bench consisting of

Goga
PF
Justin
Sumner
Aaron

I like that bench. Sumner is pretty good off ball, and Aaron functions better if he gets to handle the ball, I feel. And we get a pick out of it as well, optimistically

I think you'd have to have another big time stabilizing vet at the PF spot there in order to keep that lineup from constantly collapsing. Like a Thad Young.

Would love to have Thad back he's balling for Chicago !

[Vorda]

Bucks aquire Tucker... we desperatly need that kind of player... but they are doing nothing to improve the roster

[Scoot McGroot]

Bucks aquire Tucker... we desperatly need that kind of player... but they are doing nothing to improve the roster

Would you have traded a 1st round pick for Tucker? That’s essentially what Milwaukee was willing to do.

[Pacers_Freak]

Bucks aquire Tucker... we desperatly need that kind of player... but they are doing nothing to improve the roster

Would you have traded a 1st round pick for Tucker? That’s essentially what Milwaukee was willing to do.

An expiring deal for a 10th place team. HALE NAW.

[Topofthekey]

So apparently Aaron is on the trading block

https://www.google.com/amp/s/8points9seconds.com/2021/03/19/indiana-pacers-aaron-holiday-reportedly-trade-block/amp/

I mean, I understand that Aaron hasn't been good this year, and combined with MCConnell's play, he's looking like the odd man out

But isn't trading Aaron now selling really low on him?

For the same reason that he looks like the odd man out with the Pacers, other teams would hesitate to give up any available asset for him . I mean, if you were the buyer, what would you be willing to give up for Aaron right now? A second round pick?

If indeed the team is looking to trade Aaron, I have to say I really don't understand the logic behind the move

He's under contract cheaply anyway. Even if he's the odd man out, it doesn't hurt the team to just stash him on the bench and see what happens next year. If anything, that's probably a good idea, as he can be the insurance policy in case McConnell doesn't return

And speaking of McConnell, if the team absolutely wants to trade someone, wouldn't trading McConnell be the more logical move?

Yes, I understand he's been playing very well and we all love him. But for the same reason that Aaron isn't going to fetch anything on the trade market, other teams may be willing to offer something with actual value for McConnell

If the team absolutely has to trade someone, it feels like they should sell high on McConnell. There's no guarantee that he will be back next season anyway, so why not just cash in on his value now. It kills two birds with one stone

For example, Clippers are reportedly looking for a playmaker. They might have real interest in McConnell. Would they consider something like McConnell + McDermott for Zubac?

That's something that is a lot more sensible, instead of trading Aaron for peanuts (which is what the team would be getting if they decide to trade him now)

[Scoot McGroot]

So apparently Aaron is on the trading block

https://www.google.com/amp/s/8points9seconds.com/2021/03/19/indiana-pacers-aaron-holiday-reportedly-trade-block/amp/

I mean, I understand that Aaron hasn't been good this year, and combined with MCConnell's play, he's looking like the odd man out

But isn't trading Aaron now selling really low on him?

For the same reason that he looks like the odd man out with the Pacers, other teams would hesitate to give up any available asset for him . I mean, if you were the buyer, what would you be willing to give up for Aaron right now? A second round pick?

If indeed the team is looking to trade Aaron, I have to say I really don't understand the logic behind the move

He's under contract cheaply anyway. Even if he's the odd man out, it doesn't hurt the team to just stash him on the bench and see what happens next year. If anything, that's probably a good idea, as he can be the insurance policy in case McConnell doesn't return

And speaking of McConnell, if the team absolutely wants to trade someone, wouldn't trading McConnell be the more logical move?

Yes, I understand he's been playing very well and we all love him. But for the same reason that Aaron isn't going to fetch anything on the trade market, other teams may be willing to offer something with actual value for McConnell

If the team absolutely has to trade someone, it feels like they should sell high on McConnell. There's no guarantee that he will be back next season anyway, so why not just cash in on his value now. It kills two birds with one stone

For example, Clippers are reportedly looking for a playmaker. They might have real interest in McConnell. Would they consider something like McConnell + McDermott for Zubac?

That's something that is a lot more sensible, instead of trading Aaron for peanuts (which is what the team would be getting if they decide to trade him now)

As for Aaron, Zach Lowe mentioned that a lot of teams still really like Aaron Holiday. I think he could net a top 20 protected 1st, or a late 1st from a contender. I could also see Pritchard/Nate wanting to clear a little more room to try and keep Doug/TJ in free agency. We’re projected to have only around $12m before the tax, so moving Aaron’s nearly $4m salary could clear a little more breathing room to keep him, and show that we’re focused on keeping McConnell.

As for the Clippers deal, I’m not sure why we’d deal McConnell/McDermott for a 4th guy that would be best at the 5 spot (Turner, Sabonis, Goga already here). Realistically, it kills Goga’s future here, and I’m not sure how much playing time you can realistically get a Zubac here, as I don’t know how much you want to play Sabonis/Zubac together. Just seems like a tough fit.

[Topofthekey]

So apparently Aaron is on the trading block

https://www.google.com/amp/s/8points9seconds.com/2021/03/19/indiana-pacers-aaron-holiday-reportedly-trade-block/amp/

I mean, I understand that Aaron hasn't been good this year, and combined with MCConnell's play, he's looking like the odd man out

But isn't trading Aaron now selling really low on him?

For the same reason that he looks like the odd man out with the Pacers, other teams would hesitate to give up any available asset for him . I mean, if you were the buyer, what would you be willing to give up for Aaron right now? A second round pick?

If indeed the team is looking to trade Aaron, I have to say I really don't understand the logic behind the move

He's under contract cheaply anyway. Even if he's the odd man out, it doesn't hurt the team to just stash him on the bench and see what happens next year. If anything, that's probably a good idea, as he can be the insurance policy in case McConnell doesn't return

And speaking of McConnell, if the team absolutely wants to trade someone, wouldn't trading McConnell be the more logical move?

Yes, I understand he's been playing very well and we all love him. But for the same reason that Aaron isn't going to fetch anything on the trade market, other teams may be willing to offer something with actual value for McConnell

If the team absolutely has to trade someone, it feels like they should sell high on McConnell. There's no guarantee that he will be back next season anyway, so why not just cash in on his value now. It kills two birds with one stone

For example, Clippers are reportedly looking for a playmaker. They might have real interest in McConnell. Would they consider something like McConnell + McDermott for Zubac?

That's something that is a lot more sensible, instead of trading Aaron for peanuts (which is what the team would be getting if they decide to trade him now)

As for Aaron, Zach Lowe mentioned that a lot of teams still really like Aaron Holiday. I think he could net a top 20 protected 1st, or a late 1st from a contender. I could also see Pritchard/Nate wanting to clear a little more room to try and keep Doug/TJ in free agency. We’re projected to have only around $12m before the tax, so moving Aaron’s nearly $4m salary could clear a little more breathing room to keep him, and show that we’re focused on keeping McConnell.

As for the Clippers deal, I’m not sure why we’d deal McConnell/McDermott for a 4th guy that would be best at the 5 spot (Turner, Sabonis, Goga already here). Realistically, it kills Goga’s future here, and I’m not sure how much playing time you can realistically get a Zubac here, as I don’t know how much you want to play Sabonis/Zubac together. Just seems like a tough fit.

I still think it's selling low on Aaron. But if as you say we could get a FRP in the 20s and provided the team likes who's available in the draft pool, then that's somewhat better

As for the Clippers deal, you're right, we don't need Zubac. It would need to be a 3 team deal where we send Zubac to a third team

For example, we could send Zubac to Hornets for PJ Washington or Miles Bridges, giving the team the backup 4 they need. Bridges is probably more realistic than Washington, but I'm fine with either

Effectively, it would mean we consolidated Doug and McConnell into Washington or Bridges, and I think that's good for the team. We'll probably have to add a bit to get Washington, but as I said I'm fine with either him or Bridges

There are also other teams who are looking for a good 5, Celtics for example. Warriors too, though I'm not sure what we would want from those two teams in return