Lavine extension and renegotiation

[TheStig]

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

I think the star discussion is misguided. A lot of players become "stars" due to the talent around them improving.

Back to basics. Right now the Bulls need a quality Center and PG. They don't have to be stars right now if they are already quality starters and have upside.

Did anyone think Thad would be the player he is right now? If he were a few years younger and played this role consistently at this level the only thing keeping him out of an all star game is that all stars are always scorers. The Bulls have scorers.

You try to keep Zach, Lauri and Pwill, and you trade Carter plus a piece (Coby if you have to, Val or Gaff if you can get away with it) along with a draft pick and you get either the PG or Center you want.

Certainly if you trade Carter plus a piece plus your pick, you get a piece back that is more valuable than Carter, right?

Wouldn't Coby, Gaff and your pick get you a piece back that is better than Coby?

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What was the point of hiring AK then? His drafting ability is his best attribute. Why trade away all the picks to get a marginal upgrade? Part of the reason I'm so open to cashing out Lavine is AK's draft record. We should be trading away the Coby's, WC's and Lauri's to get more picks.

[TheStig]

15 out of the league's top-15 stars are "settled" ... Locked into long contracts, teamed up with their co-superstars... the only guy remotely worth praying for is Kawhi, if PG and the Clippers totally shatter and he opts out for a new situation.

Can we lay off the crack-pot 3-star FA plans (which apparently doesn't even include Zach, because he'd clog the books)?

This is what I was trying to point out. There are no star FA's to sign in the next couple of years.

If a star does become available, the package of Coby, WC, Lauri and pics is easily beaten by teams with better prospects and/or picks.

I just don't see the path out there to really make big strides with the team. The only path I see is making a move like overpaying a vet like Lowry to make an incremental improvement. A guy like Lowry would push us into the playoffs but not out of the 1st round.

Yeah - I'm firmly against the GarPax style of overpaying over-the-hill players. Lowry is about to turn 35, going on 36 by the time he's signed. He has 1-2 years of basketball left. A mentoring stop-gap is not worth that money (Phoenix making me eat crow, but I still think that after this year, they're in trouble). Guys like Temple can provide the same thing for $5m.

If the Bulls sign a guy, he needs to bring 3-4 years of good starting basketball, not a 1-year-maybe and a retirement party. I can resign Thad to something reasonable and long-term, because he's here already, he fits and he's not 35.

Key is simply patience. There are 7 rookie salaries on the books.. and half the veterans are not real NBA veterans, or perpetually injured... you can keep adding lotto talent or dumping for cap, but the team is going to remain inconsistent and mediocre until there are less rookie salaries in the rotation than healthy, prime veterans.

IMO , considering a short-rotation and getting through 2 months with 3-4 rookie-scale starters who don't even compliment each other at all, this team is in "optimal" shape, short of having a Zion or Luka type of building block. The rookie prodigy is a far-fetched casino to gamble on.

My only issues with just signing a couple of vets is that the ceiling of the team is low. Take Atlanta, they signed Rondo, Bogdon, Gallinari and traded for Capela at the deadline. They're still a bubble team. Signing vet FA's typically isn't a big winning move unless you're just getting the missing piece. Add in Detroit, they were the other big FA splashes, Grant, Plumlee and such. Terrible team.

If you added in Grant and Bogdo (the two best FA's) what does that add a few wins? I just don't feel the base of the team and assets are good enough to get off the bubble treadmill.

[WindyCityBorn]

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

Have you seen our remaining schedule? If we make playoffs or finish with a record good enough to get the 15th pick then we are going to have to beat a lot of good teams. So either this team and players will show a lot of progress (raising their trade value) or we are likely getting top 10 pick.

[WindyCityBorn]

This is what I was trying to point out. There are no star FA's to sign in the next couple of years.

If a star does become available, the package of Coby, WC, Lauri and pics is easily beaten by teams with better prospects and/or picks.

I just don't see the path out there to really make big strides with the team. The only path I see is making a move like overpaying a vet like Lowry to make an incremental improvement. A guy like Lowry would push us into the playoffs but not out of the 1st round.

Yeah - I'm firmly against the GarPax style of overpaying over-the-hill players. Lowry is about to turn 35, going on 36 by the time he's signed. He has 1-2 years of basketball left. A mentoring stop-gap is not worth that money (Phoenix making me eat crow, but I still think that after this year, they're in trouble). Guys like Temple can provide the same thing for $5m.

If the Bulls sign a guy, he needs to bring 3-4 years of good starting basketball, not a 1-year-maybe and a retirement party. I can resign Thad to something reasonable and long-term, because he's here already, he fits and he's not 35.

Key is simply patience. There are 7 rookie salaries on the books.. and half the veterans are not real NBA veterans, or perpetually injured... you can keep adding lotto talent or dumping for cap, but the team is going to remain inconsistent and mediocre until there are less rookie salaries in the rotation than healthy, prime veterans.

IMO , considering a short-rotation and getting through 2 months with 3-4 rookie-scale starters who don't even compliment each other at all, this team is in "optimal" shape, short of having a Zion or Luka type of building block. The rookie prodigy is a far-fetched casino to gamble on.

My only issues with just signing a couple of vets is that the ceiling of the team is low. Take Atlanta, they signed Rondo, Bogdon, Gallinari and traded for Capela at the deadline. They're still a bubble team. Signing vet FA's typically isn't a big winning move unless you're just getting the missing piece. Add in Detroit, they were the other big FA splashes, Grant, Plumlee and such. Terrible team.

If you added in Grant and Bogdo (the two best FA's) what does that add a few wins? I just don't feel the base of the team and assets are good enough to get off the bubble treadmill.

If this team had Grant and Brogdon we would be top 4 in the East.

[Jcool0]

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

Teams aren't trading best player for best player. Butler wasn't traded for KAT. Harden wasn't traded for Irving. You get young talent + picks and hope to rebuild. Lets say Bulls resign Lauri for 4/80. You could make a trade of Coby, Williams and Lauri + a #1 for a star player that wants out. Ingram looked like a bust as the #2 overall pick in LA. Gets traded to NO he is now an all-star.

[kodo]

I don't think AK would see himself as a draft junkie, not in the way Hinkie & Sam Presti are. I think he would call himself and the Denver organization a development team, a team that takes players the rest of the league overlooks (either in the draft or already in the NBA) and develops them.

For example, this was his quote on getting the #4:

“We realized that we’re hopefully never going to be in that situation again and pick that high.’’

That doesn't sound like a guy who is going to cash in on trading his existing best players for more picks or tank his team to get the highest picks.

Another example, he traded the #14 pick which ended up being Donovan Mitchell, for Trey Lyles. Because he believed Lyles had some potential, and that was more useful than a decent 1st rounder in what was billed as one of the best drafts (along with 2018) we'll see around this time frame. Bam Adebayo, John Collins, OG, Jarett Allen were all available at 14 in addition to Mitchell. Hinkie or Presti would never had traded #14 in that draft.

Tim Connelly from Denver has always said it was about development, "“We thought the best way for a market like ours to be a sustainable, achieving, high-level team was through internal development..." I assume AK is from the same mindset. In stories written about Jokic, there was a lot about how Denver built a great development staff to turn Jokic into a great player. He didn't walk into the NBA dropping 30/12/12. He couldn't even beat out Nurkic, their center at the time.

I can see Zach Lavine representing to AK his biggest success, taking an "empty calories" losing player who wasn't a top prospect or drafted high (below McDermott) and transforming him into a star player. I believe this is what AK plans to do, turn overlooked guys into stars. Whether they come from the draft or are already out there in the NBA, he'll try to develop them either way. He's already done that by drafting Williams, someone nobody was going to take at #4.

Whatever moves AK makes this deadline & this summer, I'm going to guess we won't be blown away by it. Just like nobody was really happy with Thad Young last year. He & Billy may target guys whose stock are very low right now. Jerami Grant today is a product of his Denver years, I'm going to guess we'll see guys like Jerami or Christian Wood added, guys below the radar, than an instant gratification type trade.

[TheStig]

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

Teams aren't trading best player for best player. Butler wasn't traded for KAT. Harden wasn't traded for Irving. You get young talent + picks and hope to rebuild. Lets say Bulls resign Lauri for 4/80. You could make a trade of Coby, Williams and Lauri + a #1 for a star player that wants out. Ingram looked like a bust as the #2 overall pick in LA. Gets traded to NO he is now an all-star.

Yes, they're not trading best player for best player but Ingram was a much better prospect than anyone on our team and he came with other young players who were also good prospects and a top 10 pick and another pick. We don't have that package. No one is clamoring for our young talent.

[TheStig]

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

Have you seen our remaining schedule? If we make playoffs or finish with a record good enough to get the 15th pick then we are going to have to beat a lot of good teams. So either this team and players will show a lot of progress (raising their trade value) or we are likely getting top 10 pick.

I said 15-23 with a trade for a star. See a team at the deadline isn't going to look where we're but we're we would be with their star. I also don't think that getting the #10 is some big prize.

[TheStig]

Yeah - I'm firmly against the GarPax style of overpaying over-the-hill players. Lowry is about to turn 35, going on 36 by the time he's signed. He has 1-2 years of basketball left. A mentoring stop-gap is not worth that money (Phoenix making me eat crow, but I still think that after this year, they're in trouble). Guys like Temple can provide the same thing for $5m.

If the Bulls sign a guy, he needs to bring 3-4 years of good starting basketball, not a 1-year-maybe and a retirement party. I can resign Thad to something reasonable and long-term, because he's here already, he fits and he's not 35.

Key is simply patience. There are 7 rookie salaries on the books.. and half the veterans are not real NBA veterans, or perpetually injured... you can keep adding lotto talent or dumping for cap, but the team is going to remain inconsistent and mediocre until there are less rookie salaries in the rotation than healthy, prime veterans.

IMO , considering a short-rotation and getting through 2 months with 3-4 rookie-scale starters who don't even compliment each other at all, this team is in "optimal" shape, short of having a Zion or Luka type of building block. The rookie prodigy is a far-fetched casino to gamble on.

My only issues with just signing a couple of vets is that the ceiling of the team is low. Take Atlanta, they signed Rondo, Bogdon, Gallinari and traded for Capela at the deadline. They're still a bubble team. Signing vet FA's typically isn't a big winning move unless you're just getting the missing piece. Add in Detroit, they were the other big FA splashes, Grant, Plumlee and such. Terrible team.

If you added in Grant and Bogdo (the two best FA's) what does that add a few wins? I just don't feel the base of the team and assets are good enough to get off the bubble treadmill.

If this team had Grant and Brogdon we would be top 4 in the East.

[WindyCityBorn]

My only issues with just signing a couple of vets is that the ceiling of the team is low. Take Atlanta, they signed Rondo, Bogdon, Gallinari and traded for Capela at the deadline. They're still a bubble team. Signing vet FA's typically isn't a big winning move unless you're just getting the missing piece. Add in Detroit, they were the other big FA splashes, Grant, Plumlee and such. Terrible team.

If you added in Grant and Bogdo (the two best FA's) what does that add a few wins? I just don't feel the base of the team and assets are good enough to get off the bubble treadmill.

If this team had Grant and Brogdon we would be top 4 in the East.

Outside of Philly and the Nets who would be decisively better? Boston isn’t killing it. We’ll see on Miami.

[TheStig]

If this team had Grant and Brogdon we would be top 4 in the East.

Outside of Philly and the Nets who would be decisively better? Boston isn’t killing it. We’ll see on Miami.

The 2nd half of the season is gonna run over us and you're talking about a couple of role players making you a top 4 seed......

[WindyCityBorn]

Outside of Philly and the Nets who would be decisively better? Boston isn’t killing it. We’ll see on Miami.

The 2nd half of the season is gonna run over us and you're talking about a couple of role players making you a top 4 seed......

So we are gonna get run over, but we won’t get a good chance at a top pick. You can’t have it both ways...

[TheStig]

Outside of Philly and the Nets who would be decisively better? Boston isn’t killing it. We’ll see on Miami.

The 2nd half of the season is gonna run over us and you're talking about a couple of role players making you a top 4 seed......

So we are gonna get run over, but we won’t get a good chance at a top pick. You can’t have it both ways...

Sure we'll have a chance. It won't be a good chance. And we're not going to lose out. There will be some wins. We were in the playoffs at the end of the first half. We'll slide to 10ish.

[Jcool0]

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

Teams aren't trading best player for best player. Butler wasn't traded for KAT. Harden wasn't traded for Irving. You get young talent + picks and hope to rebuild. Lets say Bulls resign Lauri for 4/80. You could make a trade of Coby, Williams and Lauri + a #1 for a star player that wants out. Ingram looked like a bust as the #2 overall pick in LA. Gets traded to NO he is now an all-star.

Yes, they're not trading best player for best player but Ingram was a much better prospect than anyone on our team and he came with other young players who were also good prospects and a top 10 pick and another pick. We don't have that package. No one is clamoring for our young talent.

See you only say that because of what you know now. In 2017 he had a 13.8 PER and in 2018 he had a 13.4 PER. He also shot 33% from 3 his last year in LA & 67% form the FT line.

[TheStig]

Teams aren't trading best player for best player. Butler wasn't traded for KAT. Harden wasn't traded for Irving. You get young talent + picks and hope to rebuild. Lets say Bulls resign Lauri for 4/80. You could make a trade of Coby, Williams and Lauri + a #1 for a star player that wants out. Ingram looked like a bust as the #2 overall pick in LA. Gets traded to NO he is now an all-star.

Yes, they're not trading best player for best player but Ingram was a much better prospect than anyone on our team and he came with other young players who were also good prospects and a top 10 pick and another pick. We don't have that package. No one is clamoring for our young talent.

See you only say that because of what you know now. In 2017 he had a 13.8 PER and in 2018 he had a 13.4 PER. He also shot 33% from 3 his last year in LA & 67% form the FT line.

That doesn't change the facts. Those Lakers teams had Ingram, Russell and Randle become allstars and Ball is pretty solid too. They were completely mismanaged and had a bad coach.

[Jcool0]

Yes, they're not trading best player for best player but Ingram was a much better prospect than anyone on our team and he came with other young players who were also good prospects and a top 10 pick and another pick. We don't have that package. No one is clamoring for our young talent.

See you only say that because of what you know now. In 2017 he had a 13.8 PER and in 2018 he had a 13.4 PER. He also shot 33% from 3 his last year in LA & 67% form the FT line.

That doesn't change the facts. Those Lakers teams had Ingram, Russell and Randle become allstars and Ball is pretty solid too. They were completely mismanaged and had a bad coach.

What i just gave you are facts. What you said is an opinion. FYI Russell was dumped so they could lose Timofey Mozgov salary & they renounced Randles rights. They were not seen as anything.

[TheStig]

See you only say that because of what you know now. In 2017 he had a 13.8 PER and in 2018 he had a 13.4 PER. He also shot 33% from 3 his last year in LA & 67% form the FT line.

That doesn't change the facts. Those Lakers teams had Ingram, Russell and Randle become allstars and Ball is pretty solid too. They were completely mismanaged and had a bad coach.

What i just gave you are facts. What you said is an opinion. FYI Russell was dumped so they could lose Timofey Mozgov salary & they renounced Randles rights. They were not seen as anything.

Actually the fact is most of those guys became an all star. And the coach and FO who mismanaged those scenarios were fired, then they flipped a package built around ingram and ball for AD. Just because the bad buss and luke walton didn't see it is irrelevant.

Do you see Lauri, WC or Coby making an allstar team? I think if you asked Lakers fans, they definetely saw Ingram being an all star and flashes from the rest of something special. Not a bunch of bench guys.

[WindyCityBorn]

That doesn't change the facts. Those Lakers teams had Ingram, Russell and Randle become allstars and Ball is pretty solid too. They were completely mismanaged and had a bad coach.

What i just gave you are facts. What you said is an opinion. FYI Russell was dumped so they could lose Timofey Mozgov salary & they renounced Randles rights. They were not seen as anything.

Actually the fact is most of those guys became an all star. And the coach and FO who mismanaged those scenarios were fired, then they flipped a package built around ingram and ball for AD. Just because the bad buss and luke walton didn't see it is irrelevant.

Do you see Lauri, WC or Coby making an allstar team? I think if you asked Lakers fans, they definetely saw Ingram being an all star and flashes from the rest of something special. Not a bunch of bench guys.

As efficiently as Lauri is scoring close to 20 ppg I don’t think it is out of the question. Certainly not laughable like the idea of White or Carter being one. Especially if he plays with the intensity and toughness he has showed in the last two games since we switched the lineup. He needs to stay healthy over everything and just keep developing. Which he can with this management and coach. Zach was almost 26 when got there. Lauri is 24.

[TheStig]

What i just gave you are facts. What you said is an opinion. FYI Russell was dumped so they could lose Timofey Mozgov salary & they renounced Randles rights. They were not seen as anything.

Actually the fact is most of those guys became an all star. And the coach and FO who mismanaged those scenarios were fired, then they flipped a package built around ingram and ball for AD. Just because the bad buss and luke walton didn't see it is irrelevant.

Do you see Lauri, WC or Coby making an allstar team? I think if you asked Lakers fans, they definetely saw Ingram being an all star and flashes from the rest of something special. Not a bunch of bench guys.

As efficiently as Lauri is scoring close to 20 ppg I don’t think it is out of the question. Certainly not laughable like the idea of White or Carter being one. Especially if he plays with the intensity and toughness he has showed in the last two games since we switched the lineup. He needs to stay healthy over everything and just keep developing. Which he can with this management and coach. Zach was almost 26 when got there. Lauri is 24.

Forward is a hard spot to make it and he'd actually have to play more than half a season.

I also don't see all star talent. He's a guy who can finish but can't really create and doesn't play D well. It's hard for a guy like that to make it.

[ATRAIN53]

They blew it not trying to extend him pre all star selecion.

Now that he''s been to the game and spent the weekend with the other top tier starts - he knows he belongs now.

Look at how confident his play has been since that game, he's like a different guy.


If only he was just a hair bigger the media would give him more credit for being the talent he is.
I feel liek there was some talk he was gonna be working with Tim Grover


He like it here, he knows this is HIS franchise now.
is he worth MAX money because that will be out there from someone.......

I hope they pay him enough he can buy Mj's old house up in Highland Park!