NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[hege53190]

According to total points added (TPA) this season, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić 333.84
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo 240.75
3 Stephen Curry 206.97
4 LeBron James 196.84
5 Joel Embiid 184.71
6 Luka Dončić 179.02
7 James Harden 171.93
https://nbamath.com/2020-21-nba-tpa/

According to TPA/min, or TPA/Games, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo
3 Joel Embiid
4 Stephen Curry
5 LeBron James
6 Luka Dončić
7 James Harden

The reason I stopped at 7 is to include James Harden. Don't think anyone below has a chance anymore. The reason Harden is at 7 is because the earlier games with Rockets, which will actually hurt his real chance of winning the MVP. Had Harden started with Nets, likely he would be top 3 up there.

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

[yoyoboy]

Can we stop posting that TPA graphic so much as if it's some holy decider? It's literally just BPM adjusted for either minutes or possessions.

Jokic is #1 in TPA's defensive portion with 73.5 defensive points saved, despite the fact that Denver's defense is 9.3 points/100 worse with him on the court. The 115.4 DRTG when Jokic is on the court would rank 28th in the league. Yet it grades him as a better defender than Gobert? The box score sucks at estimating defensive value.

According to RAPM, Jokic is a -0.85 on defense, which puts him at 427/495 in the league. So obviously there's an enormous disconnect between how the box score and how things are actually playing out in the game.

[Packbuckman]

Jokic stats for March are currently at 30 ppg,12rb and 8 assist, the team is 6-1 , 8 gamest still left to play in March , he could very likely win the second , player of the month award this season .

Jokic's team is 5-1

But before we give him Player of the Month lets just look at other players

Giannis is 4-1 averaging 28p /11r /8a / 1.6s /1.2b on 62/46/80 efficiency

Harden is 5-0 averaging 25p/11r /12a/1.6s/1.4b on 48/24/92 efficiency

Just like the MVP race. Lets not call this at the midway point.

but wait, Harden and Giannis you listed are competing for player of the month in the Eastern conference.

Giannis and Harden does this to all teams it don’t matter what conference.

[hege53190]

Can we stop posting that TPA graphic so much as if it's some holy decider? It's literally just BPM adjusted for either minutes or possessions.

Whatever it is the defensive side is extremely, extremely flawed.

[DCasey91]

According to total points added (TPA) this season, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić 333.84
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo 240.75
3 Stephen Curry 206.97
4 LeBron James 196.84
5 Joel Embiid 184.71
6 Luka Dončić 179.02
7 James Harden 171.93
https://nbamath.com/2020-21-nba-tpa/

According to TPA/min, or TPA/Games, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo
3 Joel Embiid
4 Stephen Curry
5 LeBron James
6 Luka Dončić
7 James Harden

The reason I stopped at 7 is to include James Harden. Don't think anyone below has a chance anymore. The reason Harden is at 7 is because the earlier games with Rockets, which will actually hurt his real chance of winning the MVP. Had Harden started with Nets, likely he would be top 3 up there.

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

Have you actually watched the Nuggets?
You’d need prime Draymond Green just to make the team defense average. The top 6-7 aren’t great defenders at all. (Millsap has been cooked for awhile).

I repeat his 2nd in command dropped 10,16,3 points lmao my goodness gracious me.
He’s had 5 single digit games already this year... and he’s dropped a 50 piece. How do you bank on that when your primary job is to score?

Murray is like 4 players in one the good, the bad, the ugly, and the all star. I could not tell you which one rocks up each game he’s woefully inconsistent as a 2nd option. Besides Nuggets lost a heap of depth not to mention Grant is probably better Murray.

[yoyoboy]

According to total points added (TPA) this season, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić 333.84
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo 240.75
3 Stephen Curry 206.97
4 LeBron James 196.84
5 Joel Embiid 184.71
6 Luka Dončić 179.02
7 James Harden 171.93
https://nbamath.com/2020-21-nba-tpa/

According to TPA/min, or TPA/Games, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo
3 Joel Embiid
4 Stephen Curry
5 LeBron James
6 Luka Dončić
7 James Harden

The reason I stopped at 7 is to include James Harden. Don't think anyone below has a chance anymore. The reason Harden is at 7 is because the earlier games with Rockets, which will actually hurt his real chance of winning the MVP. Had Harden started with Nets, likely he would be top 3 up there.

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

Have you actually watched the Nuggets?
You’d need prime Draymond Green just to make the team defense average. The top 6-7 aren’t great defenders at all. (Millsap has been cooked for awhile).

I repeat his 2nd in command dropped 10,16,3 points lmao my goodness gracious me.

And that includes Jokic. He's been below average at best on defense this season. Lucky for him he's also been clearly the best offensive player in the league so it obviously more than balances things out.

[DCasey91]

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

Have you actually watched the Nuggets?
You’d need prime Draymond Green just to make the team defense average. The top 6-7 aren’t great defenders at all. (Millsap has been cooked for awhile).

I repeat his 2nd in command dropped 10,16,3 points lmao my goodness gracious me.

And that includes Jokic. He's been below average at best on defense this season. Lucky for him he's also been clearly the best offensive player in the league so it obviously more than balances things out.

Sweet I’m not defending him at all, but when your second best player leaves, depth is lost, half of the team have been injured or missed a fair chunk of games and your 2nd option has had five games under 10 and a 50 piece I’m actually surprised they are in contention for the 4th seed in West. He’s that good offensively.

[hege53190]

According to total points added (TPA) this season, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić 333.84
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo 240.75
3 Stephen Curry 206.97
4 LeBron James 196.84
5 Joel Embiid 184.71
6 Luka Dončić 179.02
7 James Harden 171.93
https://nbamath.com/2020-21-nba-tpa/

According to TPA/min, or TPA/Games, the ranking is:
1 Nikola Jokić
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo
3 Joel Embiid
4 Stephen Curry
5 LeBron James
6 Luka Dončić
7 James Harden

The reason I stopped at 7 is to include James Harden. Don't think anyone below has a chance anymore. The reason Harden is at 7 is because the earlier games with Rockets, which will actually hurt his real chance of winning the MVP. Had Harden started with Nets, likely he would be top 3 up there.

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

Have you actually watched the Nuggets?
You’d need prime Draymond Green just to make the team defense average. The top 6-7 aren’t great defenders at all. (Millsap has been cooked for awhile).

I repeat his 2nd in command dropped 10,16,3 points lmao my goodness gracious me.

Except when Jokic steps off the floor they play like one of the top defenses in the league. That is a weird coincidence. Maybe they lean on Jokic's defensive prowess to much when he is in the game then decide they need to compensate and play better when he is out of the game.

Whatever it is The best defensive players in the league should not have this sort of discrepancy

Here are other notable big men stats.

Rudy Gobert 106.3 on/ 114.4 off -8.1 diff
Joel Embiid 107.4 on /111.0 off -3.6 diff
Giannis 110 on /115 off -5.1 diff


These stats are noisy. However the best defensive player in the league shouldn't have a +9

[Openheimer]

Dame if he gets the blazers top 2 or three seed must be in the conversation

[GSP]

Factoring in missed games at this point Dame has to be above Joel IMO.

50/10/6 and ANOTHER absolute robbery of another team in a game they had no business winning due to being by far the best clutch performer in the league this season

Bron
Jokic
Dame
Giannis
Embiid

EDIT: Looks like Joel has only missed 8 games so far so he prolly should still be top 3 but we wont see him the rest of the month so thats how its gonna look by the end of the month IMO

[Ballerhogger]

Bron 25/12/12 back to back triple doubles

[Young Stapler]

Hornets game will be fun on Thursday.

[Riko]

I will double post this because I believe it needs repeating.

This suggest that Jokic is the most valuable defensive player in the league twice as valuable as Embiid. 50% more valuable than Gobert.

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

I repeat

The Nuggets are giving up 9 points MORE per 100 possessions while Jokic is in the game.

That means this stat is complete ****.

Have you actually watched the Nuggets?
You’d need prime Draymond Green just to make the team defense average. The top 6-7 aren’t great defenders at all. (Millsap has been cooked for awhile).

I repeat his 2nd in command dropped 10,16,3 points lmao my goodness gracious me.

Except when Jokic steps off the floor they play like one of the top defenses in the league. That is a weird coincidence. Maybe they lean on Jokic's defensive prowess to much when he is in the game then decide they need to compensate and play better when he is out of the game.

Whatever it is The best defensive players in the league should not have this sort of discrepancy

Here are other notable big men stats.

Rudy Gobert 106.3 on/ 114.4 off -8.1 diff
Joel Embiid 107.4 on /111.0 off -3.6 diff
Giannis 110 on /115 off -5.1 diff


These stats are noisy. However the best defensive player in the league shouldn't have a +9

Well, jokic's minutes are (for the most part) with bad defenders on the floor. I'm not a stats guy but eye test tell me is better to play on defense with campazzo (active, smart player), dozier even j. Green (despite some really bad plays) than the starter.
Plus, but this is just my opinion, denver like gamble a lot on defense with jokic on the floor: opposite team like drive at the basket because they have the idea that jokic is a bad rim protector but denver clogging the paint and active hands mean a lot of TO or deflection but some 3's and easy basket too.

[Dupp]

Lilly really needs to be talked about as a front runner like embiid, joker and bron. Complete carry job all season.


Doubt he’ll finish anywhere near as high as he should.

[Roy The Natural]

Lilly really needs to be talked about as a front runner like embiid, joker and bron. Complete carry job all season.


Doubt he’ll finish anywhere near as high as he should.

Yea... I don't really understand why Jokic has so much momentum. I mean he's great and his counting stats are nice, but his team has the same record as Lillard's despite Jokic working with VASTLY more talent around him. RPM paints them about equal for what it's worth.

[dygaction]

The thread needs a restart as most of the users have already casted their votes, but their opinions might have changed with more games played.

[Gatorade Sax]

Lilly really needs to be talked about as a front runner like embiid, joker and bron. Complete carry job all season.


Doubt he’ll finish anywhere near as high as he should.

Yea... I don't really understand why Jokic has so much momentum. I mean he's great and his counting stats are nice, but his team has the same record as Lillard's despite Jokic working with VASTLY more talent around him. RPM paints them about equal for what it's worth.

The vast talent around Jokic. Everyone on his team has played like ass all year. Lillard should definitely be in the conversation (would love him to win tbh), but early season CJ looked like MJ compared to Jokic’ supporting cast..let’s be real.

[narmerguy]

The thread needs a restart as most of the users have already casted their votes, but their opinions might have changed with more games played.

Agreed!

[Roy The Natural]

Lilly really needs to be talked about as a front runner like embiid, joker and bron. Complete carry job all season.


Doubt he’ll finish anywhere near as high as he should.

Yea... I don't really understand why Jokic has so much momentum. I mean he's great and his counting stats are nice, but his team has the same record as Lillard's despite Jokic working with VASTLY more talent around him. RPM paints them about equal for what it's worth.

The vast talent around Jokic. Everyone on his team has played like ass all year. Lillard should definitely be in the conversation (would love him to win tbh), but early season CJ looked like MJ compared to Jokic’ supporting cast..let’s be real.

Sure... that was what 25 games ago. Jokic has been working with an "elite" supporting cast. People like to say that they suck, but they don't.

The Nuggets with Jokic have a +5.3 NRtg, without they have a +2.5 NRtg. He takes a solid team and makes them really good.

The Blazers with Lillard have a +1.4 NRtg, without him they have a -6.3 NRtg.... He's taking a team that would be in contention for a top 3-5 pick and leading them to the same record Jokic is.

Jokic's counting stats are fantastic. He's a legitimate MVP cantidate. But at this point, his only real edge over Lillard is in counting stats in a couple of bigman categories like rebounds/blocks. Everything else is in the general vicinity between the 2. Their teams have the same record. Their RPM is about the same. Lillard makes a bigger impact to NRtg.

I'm not arguing against Jokic here. I just don't see the separation between the 2 that others seem to. They're neck and neck at wherever you place them in the rankings. That's what the peripherals support at this point.

[dygaction]

Yea... I don't really understand why Jokic has so much momentum. I mean he's great and his counting stats are nice, but his team has the same record as Lillard's despite Jokic working with VASTLY more talent around him. RPM paints them about equal for what it's worth.

The vast talent around Jokic. Everyone on his team has played like ass all year. Lillard should definitely be in the conversation (would love him to win tbh), but early season CJ looked like MJ compared to Jokic’ supporting cast..let’s be real.

Sure... that was what 25 games ago. Jokic has been working with an "elite" supporting cast. People like to say that they suck, but they don't.

The Nuggets with Jokic have a +5.3 NRtg, without they have a +2.5 NRtg. He takes a solid team and makes them really good.

The Blazers with Lillard have a +1.4 NRtg, without him they have a -6.3 NRtg.... He's taking a team that would be in contention for a top 3-5 pick and leading them to the same record Jokic is.

Jokic's counting stats are fantastic. He's a legitimate MVP cantidate. But at this point, his only real edge over Lillard is in counting stats in a couple of bigman categories like rebounds/blocks. Everything else is in the general vicinity between the 2. Their teams have the same record. Their RPM is about the same. Lillard makes a bigger impact to NRtg.

I'm not arguing against Jokic here. I just don't see the separation between the 2 that others seem to. They're neck and neck at wherever you place them in the rankings. That's what the peripherals support at this point.

Depending on how you view it. Besides what you mentioned edges on big man categories, like more than doubling in rebounds (11.1 vs. 4.0), I can also point out that Joker as a center has more assist, steals and less turnovers than Dame as a PG. Also, while Dame is known to be an elite shooter, Joker is actually shooting at a better 2p%, 3p%, and TS%. There are big differences in adv stats like WS, BPM, and PER.
I agree with Embiid out, Dame should be in top 5, but his case over Joker to me is similar to CP3 over Dame - You can find an angle, but only from that angle.